Woodworking Magazines

[Derek Cohen]

I posted a response on another forum about woodworking magazines, where no doubt my comments will get lost. I think that there is an idea here that is worth discussing. I hope that someone like Megan will comment. Even before I outline now what I wrote earlier, I recognise that an inherent problem is that magazines, hardcopy and on-line, may be a dying format. Further, publishing costs a lot, and budgets dictate the content of magazines these days. What I want may not be practical. Still, I also believe that this is up to the likes of you and I. If there is a demand, there could be a supply.

We all bought magazines when we were starting out. The trouble is that the magazines recycle the same topics every 7 years. Beginners became intermediates, and then more advanced woodworkers, and eventually there is nothing more to read.

I have subscriptions to FWW and PW. I flick through them in 5 minutes. Builds do not really interest me - they are set up for beginners, step-by-step, cut lists, etc. The magazine I still enjoy reading is Woodwork. I have all the copies on my iPad, which pleases my wife as there is no noise of pages turning as I read in bed. I enjoy the biographies and take a vicarious pleasure in their emerging skills and sense of design. I enjoy reading about designs and how they evolve. I prefer contemporary design to the 18th century. I find interest in seeing the original work of others. I would happily read about the influence of Eastern furniture or European design than more American Stickley and other Arts and Craft. There is just so much Shaker one can take (and I do like Shaker for its simple, pure lines).

I'd like to see advanced joinery, such as used by the Chinese and Japanese.

Essentially, I believe that there is a place for a magazine that caters for the intermediate to advanced woodworker. No, not Mortice and Tenon - that caters to the vintage era and vintage methods .... all good, but I am past that stage. I want blended, not just hand tools - I am very proficient with hand tools, but I recognise that restricting oneself here simply hamstrings oneself when it comes to building the designs in our heads.

I want articles written by experienced woodworkers, not those who are weekend warriors (there is another on-line magazine on the horizon and, in spite of the best intentions, unfortunately this is also written by weekend warriors). Many of the articles featuring in magazines seem to be by weekend warriors. Indeed, I know many of them, and I am convinced that many offer technical articles without the experience of actually building furniture. I have written for magazines over the years. A few years ago I stopped deliberately and decided that I did not want to me part of a magazine that featured me as a writer. I do not know enough. I am a good woodworker. But I am a weekend warrior. I am happy to post my trials and tribulations on forums and on my website. I have no pretensions about my ability or qualifications. I expect that anyone reading my stuff knows that I am just a weekend warrior.

FWW does have experienced writers, but they are writing for the beginners. What a waste! Other magazines, PW in recent times, feature bloggers and those prominent on forums. Some may enjoy their contributions, but they limit the value of the publication for me.

I'm not alone here. Others also feel that they are in no-man's land of magazines. I think that the accountants have decided that we are not where the income lies. Increasingly, there are more and more of us. Would an on-line magazine will reduce costs enough to make it viable when written by experienced professional woodworkers?

So who will write a magazine for the likes of me?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ken hatch]

Derek,

Sad to say "we are not where the income lies" sums the whole concept of your post. Valid thoughts and questions but I expect there are no satisfactory answers. Thanks for the mention of Woodwork.

ken

[Kees Heiden]

With the new magazine do you mean this one?

https://journeymansjournel.wordpress.com/2017/06/29/handwork-magazine-out-now/

It certainly is an amateur effort, but it is for free. There is a link to the download page in the blog post I linked to above.

[Todd Stock]

'Fine Furniture'...fantastic idea that lasted a few years before rolling over and dying. The thought appeared to be that an eclectic mix of interior designers/decorators, 'elite' woodworkers, and the furniture-curious would power the magazine to a place of esteem in our collective consciousness. Reality: the interior designers really wanted a catalog of size/price/source without all the discussion of technique and 'I did this to address that challenge', experienced woodworkers wanted far more discussion of the challenges and specific techniques used, tyros wanted plans and hand-holding (plus a cheerleader or two in kick-pleat skirts), and the vast numbers of people that fell outside the decorator/wood butcher demographic turned out to be a handful of 'Felicity' set dressers that loved how the magazine looked on camera sitting atop a coffee table. I'd find perhaps one article per issue of interest, but kept up the subscription on GP until they stopped publishing.

Existing magazines? Sheesh...do I really need need yet another silly debate on the merits of having a vise on the nether regions of my bench authored by a professional contrarian, or a superficial-but-in-depth review (?) of what the cool kids are using to sever wood fibers in the shop? I'd like to imagine that the fault lies with Megan and her fellow travelers in the crafts publishing industry, who so obviously lost their way over the last 40 years and simply need to return to the interests and format of the first 40 or so issues of FWW, but a quick review of the digital archives online (I've tossed my physical collection) reveals that we have moved on...like looking through old issues of Look or Life.

I fear the numbers for a commercial venture are simply not there, so Krenov's notion of the talented, committed amateur as both audience and author seems the more attractive path. Perhaps this magazine could be interactive to a degree...allowing nearly real-time feedback, and operate on a schedule that avoids the long gaps between refresh that characterize the six issue schedule of FWW & other print media. We could avoid the 'one-size-fits-none' problem with focus areas tailored to the interests of defined groups, such as hand tool aficionados.

In other words, we are probably already there...or here, really.

[Frederick Skelly]

Derek,

Sad to say "we are not where the income lies" sums the whole concept of your post. Valid thoughts and questions but I expect there are no satisfactory answers.

ken

+1. But I wish I had a better answer. I too go through my mags in 5 mins each. Still, I'm loathe to cancel them.

[Sean Hughto]

I want articles written by experienced woodworkers, not those who are weekend warriors

Why do you take it that those who make it their living are the only ones who have something valuable to impart? In a ranking of key elements contributing to successful creation of beautiful works, I do not believe more sophisticated techniques or greater speed or efficiency would place very high. Now, those who dedicate most of their waking moments to any given endeavor may indeed be more insightful about many things relating to their focus. Then again, the need to get sales - make money - can undermine art in that time consuming, expensive, etc. are eschewed as uneconomic, for example. The best art is made when driven by a sincere compulsion to "make" for the joy or it. In short, there is a place for paid professional and unpaid lovers of wood, in my opinion. Cheers!

[Derek Cohen]

Sean, I can see how my use of the description may be taken as dismissive. Of course there are amateurs with the ability to teach at an advanced level. Krenov referred to himself as one. I would have loved to have attended his classes. I somehow doubt that he would have attended any run by myself! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sean Hughto]

Sean, I can see how my use of the description may be taken as dismissive. Of course there are amateurs with the ability to teach at an advanced level. Krenov referred to himself as one. I would have loved to have attended his classes. I somehow doubt that he would have attended any run by myself! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

I loved Woodwork. That magazine had some "teaching" as in "how to" and so forth, but mostly it drove inspiration. Seeing bodies of work and artist profiles etc. was so great.

As for Krenov, he did it for love. I want as many authors as possible who were doing it for love.

Interesting to ponder why you think Krenov would be inspiring to you but not vice versa. Do you really think you have no pieces or techniques that would interest him? If so, I think you are selling the both of you short.

[Vince Rosypal]

I believe the fundamental problems are that

1) Everyone has their own opinions on what an "intermediate" magazine may look/feel like.
2) People are at various stages in their wood working.... the better woodworkers are a small percentage to the beginers
3) Like others said.... profits are made by pandering to the masses

I also think that finding a good woodworking that can actually write (publication quality) would be a challenge also.
It's a game of percentages

[Todd Stock]

Not profit...survival. Like bookstores or big box lumber stores, there is room for two broad market outlets, a second tier of one or two niche/quality rags, and then it's newsletter time.

[James Pallas]

I have been a FWW reader since issue 1. As it went more to advertising I gave up for a few years. I resubscribed later and still have a subscription. I now once again deciding whether to renew. I fully read maybe one article each issue. I gave up on PW when it became comic book size and mostly ads. It seems to me that the magazines have become like TV 20 minutes of show and 30 minutes of ads. I would like to see more technical aspects, wood selection, technique and such and not articles from an author who claims to have invented the masking tape marking of joinery when it was discussed here three years ago. I myself have been using masking tape for scribing before the blue stuff came about, it is nicer to use. Right now we are reinventing wooden planes and workbenches in magazines. Just come here, the experts are here, some are a little rough sometimes but so were my teachers.
Jim

[Frederick Skelly]

With the new magazine do you mean this one?

https://journeymansjournel.wordpress.com/2017/06/29/handwork-magazine-out-now/

It certainly is an amateur effort, but it is for free. There is a link to the download page in the blog post I linked to above.

Thanks Kees. Hope that mag will continue to improve with time and readership. Our own Brian Holcombe has an article in there! I enjoyed it Brian!

[Vince Rosypal]

Not profit...survival.

Good point

[Brian Holcombe]

With blogs and books there tends to be a huge competition for the niche. Most are not using it as their living and so they can provide info that appeals to a small audience without worrying about the numbers.

Salko is doing what you're asking about, on e-form, I'm sure he would love to hear what an advanced Woodworker, such as yourself finds interesting.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Kees. Hope that mag will continue to improve with time and readership. Our own Brian Holcombe has an article in there! I enjoyed it Brian!

Thank you!

[Dave Anderson NH]

Derek and Sean,

I will quote from what is the unofficial motto of our NH woodworking guild, "It has always been an article of faith among us that from the rankest beginner to the most accomplished professional, we all have something to both teach and learn from each other." In my experience the passion and enthusiasm of the skilled amateur who lacks the time and budget pressures of the professional allows for a level of quality the professional is hard pressed to match. I find the concept of pro vs amateur of less value than the level of skill and the ability to clearly expound it in writing.

At a personal level I stopped my subscriptions to all woodworking magazines several years ago because of the reasons stated by others in this thread. Given the costs traditional of magazine publication including the biggie of postage which everyone missed, I am not optimistic about the future of small special interest magazine publishing.

[Derek Cohen]

Dave, thank you ... for the reminder that we all teach, and that there will always be those waiting to learn.

For over a decade now I have offered my website as a resource for those that might benefit from my experience and knowledge. I am, however, mindful that I have much to learn. The articles also chronical my own development, which is a issue for me - do I remove those with superceded methods? I leave them as they illustrate that there are many ways to skin a cat.

The point I was attempting to make at the start of this thread is that magazines are no longer a medium of education for many of us. One alternative is to return to the good books. That is fine for construction, but not for inspiration and creativity.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Waldron]

Derek:

I've done time as a yacht joiner, later as a more general boat builder/repairer with a considerable dose of woodworking included, and today as a retired "week-end warrior" to use your term (although I have a lot more shop time than the "weekend" label would suggest).

In that context, I would urge you to leave your earliest posts alone for all to see and learn from. I've made a couple of realizations from comparing older and newer versions of your work, things I would likely have missed had I not had the comparison to consider. (And at least once, I've adapted one of your older posts in preference to a newer one.)

In my view, you should drop the "week-end warrior" bit. Your work compares very favorably with any we see around here, in the mags, on Google images, anywhere we look. There's no need to qualify your stature because you don't know everything: none of us do, pro or amateur. We all have things to learn and sometimes we can offer something in return around here. You offer far more than most and we all benefit from it.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Thanks Derek. To clarify a bit, I like the idea of a magazine or for that matter an e-zine. We all need inspiration no matter what the source. I just question the financial viability of such a venture. Previous attempts years ago when the internet was less pervasive had short lives. In today's net-centric environment financial viability and survivability would be even more difficult. My approach to find inspiration is to use the net, live exhibitions, and in my case since my interest is period furniture museums.

[lowell holmes]

I read Woodwork until they folded. :(

[Ted Reischl]

WE sound like a bunch of old codgers crying in our suds about the past and how much we would like to have it back. We want our good old magazines back, whaaaa! Isn't going to happen. The demographic has changed, we can either change with it or get used to being called dinosaurs. In my former life I would get up in the morning and read the newspaper while I slurped on a coffee.

What newspaper? They are garbage these days. So, I walk myself, the cup of coffee and my tablet out to the shop. Sit down, check the forums, hit a couple of favorite websites and thoroughly enjoy the time.

Now, if a younger dinosaur was smart, they would forget about magazines and put themselves on the internet. You are all complaining that you are not learning much or not getting inspired. Pays to look around. I am doing more carving these days. I found a site run by a nice lady (Mary May) that is like having a master carver right in the shop with you. Not some magazine with half the info missing.

Things are always changing, people are always going to want to share what they know with others. The trick is packaging it all up, and magazines are a thing of the past.

I have every last issue of WoodSmith and Shopnotes. Even built a nice bookcase for them. But I also have them both on USB. Want to guess which one I look at? Not the mags.

Oh yea, I get FWW on tablet. How ya betting that in another few years you won't be able to get it in print? These younger guys are not interested in filling up their space with a bunch of old magazines that need a special insert to help them find anything. They know how to search on a computer.

[Frederick Skelly]

I read Woodwork until they folded. :(

You can still find a disk of back issues. I think I paid $80 or $90 for mine.

[Jim Koepke]

Derek, I think you sell yourself a bit short. You may only be able to do woodworking outside of your professional field, but you have produced some fine pieces that many of us have been happy to see come together.

My only reason for having a current woodworking magazine subscription is because of the lowball offer one of them recently made for a two year subscription.

My excitement grew while walking back from the mail box over the cover banner "Cut Cleaner Dovetails." There was nothing on the contents page that led me quickly to the article. The first page of contents listed an article on making a dovetailed dustpan. A quote from its pages, "There are thousands of tutorials on cutting dovetails out there. So I am not going to waste precious ink and paper explaining fundamentals of you can find in almost any book. But I would like to point out what I consider to be the critical aspects of the joint - so read the captions in "The Finer Points of Dovetails" below."

The side article didn't offer any revelations to me for improving my dovetail cutting. It didn't explain about the difference of cutting to the line and cutting through the line. To me that was one of the most important aspects of cutting dovetails that improved my efforts. There was nothing in the article telling readers the line made by transference from the tails to the pin board, or from pins to tail board, is outside of the waste area. This was another important step to improving my dovetails. So many sources say "split the line." Do that with the transferred mark and even your best sawing will leave dovetails with gaps.

On the second page of contents there was "Sliding Dovetail Waste Removal" in the letters section. This piece also didn't contain any earth shattering revelations on making better dovetails.

A promise on the cover not being satisfied by something inside has left me disappointed all too often with more publications than woodworking magazines.

One of my favorite parts of woodworking magazines is the readers tips and techniques. In many issues these have been the most informative parts. They often provide an insight into different ways of thinking and doing things.

I submitted an article on how a Stanley #45 can be used to make stopped cuts. It was rejected with the reasoning being there wouldn't be much interest. Maybe there aren't a lot of folks out there who, like myself, want to learn how to get more functions out of their tools. When a magazine is starting to become thinner over the years one would think they would welcome some different content. Maybe it would have been better to look through some old issues and rewrite an old article for submission.

Occasionally I will still purchase a FWW. The main problem with them for me is everything seems to be about using power tools. The most recent issue was purchased solely because it had an article on shave horses, something I want to learn more about.

jtk

[Ted Reischl]

The whole print thing is dying a slow and grisly death. Not just woodworking magazines, all of it.

What I was trying to say above is that someone who is really smart and wants to "publish" these days needs to forget the old paper paradigm.

Lemme ask you guys a few things:

1. Would you like a magazine that actually had videos of an experienced woodworker working and explaining what he is doing and why, or would you prefer to read an article that an editor chopped up to fit it in a certain size for his magazine format?

2. Would you like to be able to find an article or all references to a certain subject, like "dovetails" with a few mouse clicks instead of looking around through all the mags or trying to find a reference sheet to the articles?

3. Would you like to have a means to respond to what you are reading other than having an editor pick who gets to be read and who does not? It is called a forum.

It seems to me the dinosaurs in the publishing business need to do a little evolving. It is ok that so many of the mags have put their back issues on USB, but the format is a magazine format. There is a reason that the internet took off like a horse with its tail on fire. It is because it offers content that cannot be had on the printed page.

These days, I head on over to YouTube to see who and what I can find that interests me in woodworking. Some of the guys are doing a great job, imagine what could be done if they had someone who knew how to organize, create additional content, pretty things up for them! Check out Rob Cosman's videos sometime.

[Patrick Chase]

I have written for magazines over the years. A few years ago I stopped deliberately and decided that I did not want to me part of a magazine that featured me as a writer. I do not know enough. I am a good woodworker. But I am a weekend warrior. I am happy to post my trials and tribulations on forums and on my website. I have no pretensions about my ability or qualifications. I expect that anyone reading my stuff knows that I am just a weekend warrior.

Ironically enough that self-awareness on your part means that you're probably better suited to write such articles than some of the other weekend warriors who blissfully continue to do so without similar hesitation. Dunning-Krueger blah blah.

When I was starting out I read all of your articles and reviews that I could find, and found them useful. Perhaps not appropriate for the sort of advanced-woodworker-oriented publication that you propose here, but useful all the same. On a related note, it is widely understood that the person who is most knowledgable about a given topic isn't always best suited to teach any but the most advanced classes about it. A weekend warrior who can write extremely well is probably more immediately useful to a starting/intermediate woodworker than is a bona fide master who cannot. Of course the student may eventually outgrow that teacher, but that's life.

Restating what I said above, I think that a self-aware weekend warrior (one who understands where they stand and what they should and shouldn't be teaching) can offer a lot to the community.

[Patrick Chase]

I somehow doubt that he would have attended any run by myself! :)

If he were starting out today he very well might IMO. Everybody starts in basically the same place after all, and the old ways of learning have more or less broken down.

[Patrick Chase]

Our own Brian Holcombe has an article in there! I enjoyed it Brian!

Another example of a very self-aware teacher IMO.

[Rich Colvin]

I have been a FWW reader since issue 1

I got the FWW web membership which gives me the magazine on my iPad, and access to all the plethora of information on their web site. I've found it useful.

Rich

[Rich Colvin]

I'm a woodturner, and I've found that the online magazine at www.woodturningonline.com is a new concept that I really like.

Rich

[Prashun Patel]

I had to edit out some feuding. Sorry if there are cryptic parts now. But that's how it goes in this part of the Creek.

[Brian Holcombe]

Derek, I think you sell yourself a bit short. You may only be able to do woodworking outside of your professional field, but you have produced some fine pieces that many of us have been happy to see come together.

My only reason for having a current woodworking magazine subscription is because of the lowball offer one of them recently made for a two year subscription.

My excitement grew while walking back from the mail box over the cover banner "Cut Cleaner Dovetails." There was nothing on the contents page that led me quickly to the article. The first page of contents listed an article on making a dovetailed dustpan. A quote from its pages, "There are thousands of tutorials on cutting dovetails out there. So I am not going to waste precious ink and paper explaining fundamentals of you can find in almost any book. But I would like to point out what I consider to be the critical aspects of the joint - so read the captions in "The Finer Points of Dovetails" below."

The side article didn't offer any revelations to me for improving my dovetail cutting. It didn't explain about the difference of cutting to the line and cutting through the line. To me that was one of the most important aspects of cutting dovetails that improved my efforts. There was nothing in the article telling readers the line made by transference from the tails to the pin board, or from pins to tail board, is outside of the waste area. This was another important step to improving my dovetails. So many sources say "split the line." Do that with the transferred mark and even your best sawing will leave dovetails with gaps.

On the second page of contents there was "Sliding Dovetail Waste Removal" in the letters section. This piece also didn't contain any earth shattering revelations on making better dovetails.

A promise on the cover not being satisfied by something inside has left me disappointed all too often with more publications than woodworking magazines.

One of my favorite parts of woodworking magazines is the readers tips and techniques. In many issues these have been the most informative parts. They often provide an insight into different ways of thinking and doing things.

I submitted an article on how a Stanley #45 can be used to make stopped cuts. It was rejected with the reasoning being there wouldn't be much interest. Maybe there aren't a lot of folks out there who, like myself, want to learn how to get more functions out of their tools. When a magazine is starting to become thinner over the years one would think they would welcome some different content. Maybe it would have been better to look through some old issues and rewrite an old article for submission.

Occasionally I will still purchase a FWW. The main problem with them for me is everything seems to be about using power tools. The most recent issue was purchased solely because it had an article on shave horses, something I want to learn more about.

jtk

Submit that same article to Salko, I'm sure he will find interest in it.




Ironically enough that self-awareness on your part means that you're probably better suited to write such articles than some of the other weekend warriors who blissfully continue to do so without similar hesitation. Dunning-Krueger blah blah.

When I was starting out I read all of your articles and reviews that I could find, and found them useful. Perhaps not appropriate for the sort of advanced-woodworker-oriented publication that you propose here, but useful all the same. On a related note, it is widely understood that the person who is most knowledgable about a given topic isn't always best suited to teach any but the most advanced classes about it. A weekend warrior who can write extremely well is probably more immediately useful to a starting/intermediate woodworker than is a bona fide master who cannot. Of course the student may eventually outgrow that teacher, but that's life.

Restating what I said above, I think that a self-aware weekend warrior (one who understands where they stand and what they should and shouldn't be teaching) can offer a lot to the community.

Agreed, I very much enjoy Derek's articles. That is the kind of stuff I enjoy reading, the builds especially along with highly technical stuff. The highly technical stuff is tough because it does have a very limited audience.

I found writing an article for a magazine to be a different experience from that of blogging, blogging frankly being a bit easier since I can prattle on about something after I kick off a project. Open ended writing, seemed almost like open ended projects....much harder to find a footing.

[steven c newman]

I think I lost interest in FWW after they butchered up their Knots forums....rarely even look through the mag on the store's shelf.

[Derek Cohen]

... Derek's articles. That is the kind of stuff I enjoy reading, the builds especially along with highly technical stuff. The highly technical stuff is tough because it does have a very limited audience.

I found writing an article for a magazine to be a different experience from that of blogging, blogging frankly being a bit easier since I can prattle on about something after I kick off a project. Open ended writing, seemed almost like open ended projects....much harder to find a footing.

Thanks Brian. I feel the same about your builds.

And I agree that there is a difference between blogging (whether on a forum or website) and a magazine article. The latter needs to be tighter. I am aware of this when posting articles here - I constantly weigh up which pictures to include and which are excessive. Pics need to convey the story. Add a little commentary to clarify.

Do you get requests for plans and dimensions? I frequently do.

I actually find the way the builds are written up in magazines to be a turn off. Clearly they are for beginners.

I am not interested in a cut list or a plan in an article. I am experienced enough to work those out for myself. In any event, I have no desire to copy someone else's work (the only piece I have copied was Han's Wegner's "The Chair", where the challenge was to make an exact copy).

What I am interested in is the design process, joinery, and build technique (both hand and power).

I also seek inspiration - not to woodwork, since that is burned into me already - but, to observe the mind of others, the sparks that lit the fire, and be challenged by this. As an amateur, I have the luxury of not having to meet a deadline, a quota, or a price (within reason). This is freedom to explore and create. Plans and cut lists are shackles.

It becomes increasingly evident to me that a magazine - the way we currently view one - cannot meet this need. On-line magazines, with video content, are the way forward. As mentioned, there needs to be content aimed at the Intermediate to Advanced amateur.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Larry Frank]

I have read this thread a couple of times and find that is a bit dismissive to the majority of woodworkers who will never get to the skill level of Mr. Cohen. The majority of woodworkers are "weekend warriors". Magazines will always direct their product toward the largest group.

In a previous life, before I retired, I was involved in some technical areas and was disappointed at not being able to find journal articles that were what I wanted, needed or interested me. I found a solution that worked for me. I wrote some papers for technical conferences and presented them. While the papers were not aimed at the level I was interested in, they did open doors in finding people with similar interests. It was the contacts that were developed that was a key.

I maintained contact with the people I found and traveled to see and talk with them. This helped me to develop my technical knowledge.

I am suggesting that when you reach a certain level, magazine or journal articles will not be sufficient. One needs to do things to create personal contacts with like minded people.

[William Fretwell]

Many years ago I stopped turning the pages of magazines as I gained nothing. I looked at the new on line magazine mentioned here and watched someone finish a 'clock'. A nice wooden box with a hole into which a modern clock face was inserted. The disjoin between wood and 'clock' was painful. Had they used Velcro it could be a cell phone holder, a picture frame or a reminder board all in the same day.
To learn new techniques I resort to real books.
Not wanting to be a philistine for new stuff I have watched some on line videos. Most are a painful waste of time. Paul Sellers has a few that I can see the value in what he is doing, increasing our numbers.

An on line magazine for the people here needs to really push the boundaries on new techniques to maintain an interest. Don't forget the real glory days of fine wood working were 200 years ago! We are all just minor players in the big picture.

[Derek Cohen]

I have read this thread a couple of times and find that is a bit dismissive to the majority of woodworkers who will never get to the skill level of Mr. Cohen. The majority of woodworkers are "weekend warriors". Magazines will always direct their product toward the largest group.

Larry, if the thread has a dismissive tone for "the largest group", then that is my fault. And I apologise, although it was not my intention for this interpretation of my comments. My argument is that "the largest group" are well-catered for. I am not even sure that this identification is correct. My point all along has been that woodworkers develop skills and grow beyond beginner - intermediate stage, and still have the same interest in reading about woodwork. I am simply identifying that there is another group. We do not know the size. For all we know, they/we could easily support a publication with a suitable fit. One of my aims in starting this thread was to throw this out to others interested in the issue, including the magazine editors who read SMC.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frederick Skelly]

I agree that a "magazine" for the advanced amateur would be great!

This is a bit of an aside, but I'm thinking about current online offerings, including online mags with video content.... I'm the odd man out. I tried FWW online and found that a full size magazine format doesn't suit me on a tablet - they aren't set up for the smaller size and it's distracting. I tolerate it for my disks of back issues because that's the only solution for 20 years of past articles. Likewise, I tried 360 Woodworking and didn't get what I needed there either. I even tried a Cosman video subscription - and found myself not using it. Video is just not my "go to" approach. For me, it's a supplement to my normal way of learning.

My preferred routine is to read about how to do it - in a good book, magazine article or a blog like Derek or Brian's - and then practice on scrap until I get it right. If I don't feel confident after practicing, then I look for videos to fill in my gaps. But vids aren't my go to source like they are for many people. I think it's because video moves too fast for me to mimic. It's a good way for me to learn the finesse parts, but it's not how I learn the "big parts" of a task.

YMMV,
Fred

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Brian. I feel the same about your builds.

And I agree that there is a difference between blogging (whether on a forum or website) and a magazine article. The latter needs to be tighter. I am aware of this when posting articles here - I constantly weigh up which pictures to include and which are excessive. Pics need to convey the story. Add a little commentary to clarify.

Do you get requests for plans and dimensions? I frequently do.

I actually find the way the builds are written up in magazines to be a turn off. Clearly they are for beginners.

I am not interested in a cut list or a plan in an article. I am experienced enough to work those out for myself. In any event, I have no desire to copy someone else's work (the only piece I have copied was Han's Wegner's "The Chair", where the challenge was to make an exact copy).

What I am interested in is the design process, joinery, and build technique (both hand and power).

I also seek inspiration - not to woodwork, since that is burned into me already - but, to observe the mind of others, the sparks that lit the fire, and be challenged by this. As an amateur, I have the luxury of not having to meet a deadline, a quota, or a price (within reason). This is freedom to explore and create. Plans and cut lists are shackles.

It becomes increasingly evident to me that a magazine - the way we currently view one - cannot meet this need. On-line magazines, with video content, are the way forward. As mentioned, there needs to be content aimed at the Intermediate to Advanced amateur.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I've had one fellow build his version of my Butler's desk, he did quite a nice job of it and made changes to the design to suit his purpose but kept the overall aesthetic well in tact.

I feel similarly in that what I am after is that same understanding of someone's process. That is something not often conveyed, and I think it should be somewhat rare. Of course you get a sense of this when reading books and occasionally in interviews. I've seen a couple of these by Fine Woodworking which I thought to be very well done, the most recent was an interview with Andrew Hunter.

I feel they're all taking steps forward, but like most things it takes time and the larger the organization the harder it is to change it. For a blogger or similar it is easy to move from written to video, but for a large company they know that there is risk with each major change they will move toward it at a much slower pace (IMO). I don't normally have time to watch videos on woodworking so I usually only do so if I expect I will really appreciate the content, I prefer the written word because I can read fairly quickly and can revisit certain things without having to scan a video.

[steven c newman]

I don't make videos, but I will watch a few. No longer have to wait for the weekend to get any shop time, the joy of being retired. Mainly I try to do a new way....as I putter along, building things for Family and friends. Keeps me out of the Pubs


I am not a "Pro" in the sense I am on a time clock.....or having to sell what I make. More fun this way, and IF it was fun, I wouldn't be doing this.

I do a few Blogs, from time to time. If others find them worth following, fine. Afraid I am not much of a Teacher, but IF others find something they like in what I do, qand even learn something..that is fine , as well.
IF someone has a head full of knowledge and skills, and doesn't care to share it, that knowledge will be lost. Then we are left to sit here and argue how they actually made something.....main reason I am willing to share anything I can....and Paying Forward to the next person.

[Jim Koepke]

A major conundrum for magazines is balancing the audience. There are people who have never done much with wood maybe picking up an issue for their first time. There are some who have made a few shelves out of necessity for their home who find it might be fun to learn a bit more about woodworking. Then there are those at many different levels of the craft.

The articles throughout the magazine has to be able to appeal to all the different levels of readers without turning their back on any of the people who may be their target audience.

What often turns me off with FWW is the articles almost always require machines that are not in my shop. A table saw isn't going to magically appear in my shop. Same for biscuit jointers, lunch box planers or router tables.

Sometimes the magazines can be a source of ideas, but often that isn't even in the content.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

A major conundrum for magazines is balancing the audience. There are people who have never done much with wood maybe picking up an issue for their first time. There are some who have made a few shelves out of necessity for their home who find it might be fun to learn a bit more about woodworking. Then there are those at many different levels of the craft.

The articles throughout the magazine has to be able to appeal to all the different levels of readers without turning their back on any of the people who may be their target audience.

What often turns me off with FWW is the articles almost always require machines that are not in my shop. A table saw isn't going to magically appear in my shop. Same for biscuit jointers, lunch box planers or router tables.

Sometimes the magazines can be a source of ideas, but often that isn't even in the content.

jtk
It would be interesting to know the proportion of woodworkers that fall into the various subcategories but, I suspect, 90% are not neanderthal types. Maybe Patrick can create a SQL to figure this out and let us know.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I didn't find the thread to dismissive to weekend warriors Larry. I think Derek was trying to stimulate discussion on, "Where should all of us at every level be headed given the limitations of print media?" and "How can we find design inspiration?" I hark back to a series of classes I took years ago on the theory and practice of teaching physical skills, in this case kayaking. Every person learns differently and success depends on providing instruction in each of the 3 major methods of learning. Some are visual learners who can watch and then pick up the technique. Others can learn from written descriptions with diagrams. The final group learns by modeling the action as it is being demonstrated. All of us learn using all three methods, but one is dominant. The trick for each of us is to discover in which one we personally are dominant and skew our efforts to take advantage of that method. Our advantage in this internet era is that we have all 3 methods available to us in articles, blogs, e-zines, and videos. We should consider ourselves fortunate to have today's diverse buffet.

[Frederick Skelly]

...... the 3 major methods of learning. Some are visual learners who can watch and then pick up the technique. Others can learn from written descriptions with diagrams. The final group learns by modeling the action as it is being demonstrated. All of us learn using all three methods, but one is dominant. The trick for each of us is to discover in which one we personally are dominant and skew our efforts to take advantage of that method.

Well heck, I didn't know that Dave. That explains what I said about myself back in post #37, earlier in this thread. Thanks!
Fred

[Warren West]

The whole print thing is dying a slow and grisly death. Not just woodworking magazines, all of it.

What I was trying to say above is that someone who is really smart and wants to "publish" these days needs to forget the old paper paradigm.

Lemme ask you guys a few things:

1. Would you like a magazine that actually had videos of an experienced woodworker working and explaining what he is doing and why, or would you prefer to read an article that an editor chopped up to fit it in a certain size for his magazine format?

2. Would you like to be able to find an article or all references to a certain subject, like "dovetails" with a few mouse clicks instead of looking around through all the mags or trying to find a reference sheet to the articles?

3. Would you like to have a means to respond to what you are reading other than having an editor pick who gets to be read and who does not? It is called a forum.



I agree print is dying. The hard part of moving to the web is monetization models ads vs subscription or a combination. There is a prevailing attitude among many that if it's on the web it should be free, so it will be hard to convince some to actually pay money for content. I was a member of Fine Woodworking the digital version and didn't mind paying but there are many who won't. The other thing that works against a subscription is that ever day there are people blogging and vlogging various aspects of woodworking and anything else under the sun. Much of it is worthless, but it only cost them their time to make and youtube is paying the hosting bill so it's here to stay... but some of it is quite good and it's easy to find the good stuff. As the amount of good stuff grows it's harder and harder for a publisher of an online magazine to match what is on the rest of the web and have a compelling product.

I would think any online publication that is going to establish a subscription needs to do the following - at least: (listed out by number, but not meant as a direct reply to any of Ted's numbers per se)
1. Content should be searchable, I'm not just talking search engine in your site based on keywords, I'm talking articles indexed and entered into the system ala library catalog. Search on author, subject, title and so on. (Ted's item 2, but an expansion)
2. Content the "weekend warrior" (I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but was just keeping with Derek's original mention) can't easily produce. Interviews with top wood workers, or even companies products, in the case of interview with the manufacturer of a table saw for instance. No garbage advertorial, but an honest article maybe talking real aspects of design or things they had to overcome. Field trips to woodworking shows, woodworking shops. Derek mentioned joinery by the Chinese or Japanese, how about interviews with some of the masters or some articles of this joinery?

It's hard to take on "free" with a subscription and if everyone is free, it's hard for anyone to make money because by placing the content out there for free you've already shown you are willing and able to work for nothing and are only hoping to get paid and three more just like you start vlogging each day. Whereas maybe it cost $1500 for that 1/2 page ad in the print magazine with a documented reach of 20,000 interested readers, it's less likely any company is ever going to spend much money with an individual with a popular site because there are so many with popular sites and it's hard to prove real numbers of followers to justify an expenditure because of fake likes and fake subscriber numbers. Then it's not who has the best content, but who has sufficient content and the best coders writing bots that set up accounts and subscribe to channels and like your articles. Witness the woodworking plan sites we've all come across. They are crapped out faster than wordpress and other free sites can close them.

I certainly don't have all the answers, would be a potential subscriber and wish anyone undertaking the woodworking "magazine" of the future the best of luck.

[Brian Henderson]

I gave up on all woodworking magazines, in fact magazines in general, years ago. In fact, when I moved last year, I gave my entire paper magazine collection to the local library so I didn't have to take it with me. There just isn't enough new information in the magazines to make it worthwhile and I couldn't care less about any of the advertising. The magazines just recycle all of their content every couple of years. I did an experiment in 2016 with Fine Woodworking, I went through every issue for the year, just to see if there was a single thing that was worth paying for, anything I hadn't seen before.

There wasn't. So I don't do it anymore.

[James Pallas]

I'm sure it is difficult for a magazine to appeal to such a wide range of skills and people. I think more experienced workers, no mater what trade, are looking for more in depth articles. To me it is somewhat like a first aid manual and a medical textbook. Some of the members here do excellent builds. They also tend to skip some things with statements like "I won't bore you with dovetail cutting". That is good for the experienced but not so good for the beginner. What a quandary for the editors of magazines. I don't have an answer that would please all. Has anyone looked at the price of textbooks lately? What's an editor to do?
Jim

[Patrick Chase]

A major conundrum for magazines is balancing the audience. There are people who have never done much with wood maybe picking up an issue for their first time. There are some who have made a few shelves out of necessity for their home who find it might be fun to learn a bit more about woodworking. Then there are those at many different levels of the craft.

This is also related to why magazines seem to "recycle" topics. If they aimed their publication at people who'd read everything starting from issue 1, and therefore avoided repeating themselves, then they would likely be perceived as inaccessible to new readers. It's a difficult optimization problem to say the least.

It's not an impossible problem though. If you look at how reputable academic journals in the sciences work, they typically assume that the reader will learn the basics through coursework, textbooks, survey papers, and the like. That assumption in turn frees the journals to focus only on (nominally) novel work. I think that's basically what Derek was proposing here, though as previously noted I personally think it's more a matter of "what" (the sort of work that's published) as opposed to "who" (pro vs weekend warrior, etc). The latter feels like a needless distinction to me - if the editors are sufficiently knowledgable and apply adequate standards then the "less clueful" authors will be winnowed out based on the content they submit rather than the day job on their business cards.

[john zulu]

I came to this game around 8 years ago. Been reading from some books and mostly from the forums, web-sites and utube. As for magazines I do browse through once awhile but not much as it does not contains what I want.

All have their strengths. Utube won't cover all the nitty gritty details due to the audience interest. Some of the books covers this in great detail and I have not found any other sources that comes into this depth of explanation.

[Pat Barry]

It would be interesting to know the proportion of woodworkers that fall into the various subcategories but, I suspect, 90% are not neanderthal types. Maybe Patrick can create a SQL to figure this out and let us know.
Did a little homework on the SMC site statistics and found the following:
12% of the interests here is in Neanderthal topics and discussions (probably half are sharpening ;))
45% of the interests are in General and Power Tools topics and discussions
23% of the interests are for Turning
10% of the interests are for Engraving
4% of the interests are for Finishing
2% of the interests are for Design
2% of the interests are for Woodcarving, Boat Building, Musical Instruments, Sawmill, CNC

I'd say that FWW, PW and others try to hit as many as possible, so judging by SMC data, they should spend about half their pages satisfying the General woodworker, who uses lots of power tools. They do, and they deal with modern joinery using Dominos, biscuits, pocket screws, etc for that reason. There just isn't a lot of interest (maybe 12%) in handcut joinery including the basic dovetail.

Making a profitable traditional or non traditional magazine to cater just to a small percentage of hand tool woodworkers will never be profitable, especially considering the bulk of these people seem to get their hand tools from flea markets, ebay, garage sales, and the like. Therefore, I'd suppose, the ad revenue from hand tool makers will likely be low as well.

[Kees Heiden]

Magazines will always be superficial, it's part of the whole idea of magazines. (Scientific journals excluded of course). It's better to turn to books if you want to know more details.

Maybe we should start a scientific journal on handtool woodworking.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Kees

While I agree that all we ever need to know about construction is recorded in a great many books - and if this was all you wanted to know, then just go there. However, magazines and similar material (blogs, video, forums) offer a different side to the craft - looking forward .... inspiration, creativity, new methods ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

Maybe, a decade ago. But not anymore if I can believe the responses to this thread.

The Internet really took over. For example, without the blogging world I would never have heard from Follansbee, never been interested in English renaissance furniture, and would never have bought books about it.

Magazines are too slow, too superficial, too small.

[Rick Malakoff]

I stopped buying woodworking type mags in the mid 80's, now I only buy used books and usually for less than the cost of a single mag. I have been a Carpenter/Builder for over 40 years and sure the mags are nice to look at but from a practical stand point they don't help much when you have to go out and make your living, the last thing you want to do is spend you weekend in the shop building stuff for fun.
Fortunately I'm retired and thats all I do now and it's fun and no customers to satisfy!
Rick

[Prashun Patel]

I really like the forum model. It's more dynamic and personally relevant. Where it lacks is poor editing/moderation (finger pointed at self!!!).

Here's how it a new forum model might work:

Posters collaborate with the editor to determine the topic of the thread, and the general outline of the posts.
The poster then posts to the thread and takes his own pictures.
Viewers are allowed to read, but can only ask private questions. The editor and poster can determine which questions get addressed in subsequent posts.

A magazine has to make everything pretty; I suspect that's where all the time is spent. The forum format could sacrifice a little sex appeal for more substance. The key is incorporating an editor into the posting process so that the threads don't go off-topic, or don't end up a free-for-all.

I know this site had articles in the past; but the act of putting content together from beginning to end can be daunting. Building it dynamically and allowing the audience to have some input into it's final shape is where the magic of the internet lies. I think everyone would be more engaged this way.

[Pat Barry]

I really like the forum model. It's more dynamic and personally relevant. Where it lacks is poor editing/moderation (finger pointed at self!!!).

Here's how it a new forum model might work:

Posters collaborate with the editor to determine the topic of the thread, and the general outline of the posts.
The poster then posts to the thread and takes his own pictures.
Viewers are allowed to read, but can only ask private questions. The editor and poster can determine which questions get addressed in subsequent posts.

A magazine has to make everything pretty; I suspect that's where all the time is spent. The forum format could sacrifice a little sex appeal for more substance. The key is incorporating an editor into the posting process so that the threads don't go off-topic, or don't end up a free-for-all.

I know this site had articles in the past; but the act of putting content together from beginning to end can be daunting. Building it dynamically and allowing the audience to have some input into it's final shape is where the magic of the internet lies. I think everyone would be more engaged this way.
This will tend to buffer all the content significantly and skew the posts toward the editorial slant of the site - call it fake woodworking news if you will.

[Prashun Patel]

Unless you let other posters serve as editors.

[Pat Barry]

Unless you let other posters serve as editors.
Ok, lets have S______ (for example) edit D____'s (for example) postings (or versa vice) and see how that works out.

No, I think the problem you are trying to solve with editing involves human nature and that's like trying to find world peace.

As I see it, there are two main problems with this forum: 1) most of what we read here is opinion, unsupported by data. Now some folks feel their experience is data and I agree, that it constitutes singular data points, but those statements of experience are often presented and defended as facts when rarely is there any data to be found. 2) because people think their experience is factual, they get upset and confrontational when questioned about their positions, ie: their expertise gets questioned or they feel their expertise is being quesitoned. They take questioning as personal attacks and this leads to the need for moderators to step in and delete offensive material.

The beauty of the forum approach is that everyone can have a voice and present their opinions or question the opinions of others. Unfortunately, the side effect of this can lead to issues resembling world peace.

Question: when has a moderator EVER found the need to delete postings because they were factually wrong? I suspect never is the answer because the beauty of the forum is that it self regulates wrong information with the caveat of -see 1) and 2) above.

[Prashun Patel]

You're probably right. I just really enjoy Build threads. I think with a little collaboration, some could be made more readable, more searchable, more instructional, more inspirational. It won't be perfect, just more perfecter for me. I'm not looking to make these journalistic in nature. Just to make them a little more Wiki-esque. I think the biggest thing that could be improved is all the meaningless, but well meaning genuflecting (guilty as charged). I think some posts are made with the intent of getting likes - not teaching. If we could turn that on its head, where being asked to post an thread is in itself a show of respect, then we might have something that can approach a magazine's value.

Not saying that the general forum is without value. I want this AND that.

[Bill Houghton]

Every person learns differently and success depends on providing instruction in each of the 3 major methods of learning. Some are visual learners who can watch and then pick up the technique. Others can learn from written descriptions with diagrams. The final group learns by modeling the action as it is being demonstrated. All of us learn using all three methods, but one is dominant. The trick for each of us is to discover in which one we personally are dominant and skew our efforts to take advantage of that method. Our advantage in this internet era is that we have all 3 methods available to us in articles, blogs, e-zines, and videos. We should consider ourselves fortunate to have today's diverse buffet.

Or, to quote Will Rogers, "There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."

I'm teasing, Dave, not denigrating your important comment. It's one of the deficiencies of many training and education programs that they fail to take these multiple learning modes into account.

[Pat Barry]

You're probably right. I just really enjoy Build threads. I think with a little collaboration, some could be made more readable, more searchable, more instructional, more inspirational. It won't be perfect, just more perfecter for me. I'm not looking to make these journalistic in nature. Just to make them a little more Wiki-esque. I think the biggest thing that could be improved is all the meaningless, but well meaning genuflecting (guilty as charged). I think some posts are made with the intent of getting likes - not teaching. If we could turn that on its head, where being asked to post an thread is in itself a show of respect, then we might have something that can approach a magazine's value.

Not saying that the general forum is without value. I want this AND that.
I recall hearing "you can't have this AND that. who do you think you are?" or something to that effect.

I agree with you 100% that the build threads are the best, ok, other than sharpening. ;)

[Mark Maleski]

In addition to speaking to those of us who've been at this craft for awhile, magazines also serve as recruiting tools to bring new folks into our craft. I don't know whether I'd be w woodworker today without being hooked in by FWW calling to me from the magazine rack, and I seriously doubt I'd have focused as intently at hand tool methods without PW's emphasis on them in the early 2000s (well, the glossy L-N catalogs might've gotten me there on their own). Unlike print magazines, I don't know if online forums and online e-zines will hook anyone who's not already interested in woodworking. I think we're fortunate to have those 2 magazines still serving that role, and am happy to remain a subscriber to them both if it helps them recruit and replenish our ranks. The value that I personally get out of any articles is a nice bonus.

[lowell holmes]

I enjoy this forum a lot.

I do not take what is said as being true, it may be or not.

It really doesn't matter. It is entertainment.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Ok Bill, I can't help it if Will Rogers was both more entertaining and succinct than me. He certainly got his point across.

I too find the technique and build threads the most interesting. Sharpening is important but over the years it sure has been beaten to death. I now cringe every time I have to read through one.

[Patrick Chase]

A magazine has to make everything pretty; I suspect that's where all the time is spent. The forum format could sacrifice a little sex appeal for more substance. The key is incorporating an editor into the posting process so that the threads don't go off-topic, or don't end up a free-for-all.

A few thoughts:

There's a balance to be struck here between spontaneity and topicality. Sometimes (albeit admittedly rarely) we have very interesting "side-discussions" when threads go off-topic. Some of the recent "storytime with George" tangents spring to mind as positive examples, and I for one would hate to lose that due to rigid topicality enforcement.

I think that one of the things that keeps some people on SMC is the rapid back-and-forth. I deeply enjoy interacting with people like David and Derek (stopping with those two although there are many others), and the "open forum" provides a great means of doing so.

Lastly, I think that this community *can* produce decently self-moderated threads, this one being a case in point. Yes, some of us had to ask you to intervene to clean this thread up earlier, but other than that one episode the discussion has been very thoughtful and respectful IMO.

With all of that said the model you propose is probably much easier for the mods, so I can definitely see the attraction.

[Stewie Simpson]

A few thoughts:

There's a balance to be struck here between spontaneity and topicality. Sometimes (albeit admittedly rarely) we have very interesting "side-discussions" when threads go off-topic. Some of the recent "storytime with George" tangents spring to mind as positive examples, and I for one would hate to lose that due to rigid topicality enforcement.

I think that one of the things that keeps some people on SMC is the rapid back-and-forth. I deeply enjoy interacting with people like David and Derek (stopping with those two although there are many others), and the "open forum" provides a great means of doing so.

Lastly, I think that this community *can* produce decently self-moderated threads, this one being a case in point. Yes, some of us had to ask you to intervene to clean this thread up earlier, but other than that one episode the discussion has been very thoughtful and respectful IMO.

With all of that said the model you propose is probably much easier for the mods, so I can definitely see the attraction.

Excellent work Patrick.

[Archie England]

My day job is teaching (classics, language, and religion) students. I'm older and like the traditional classroom because it remains the best venue for communicating--just like attending ww classes. I go to educational conferences, which function just like annual ww meetings. IMO, the Internet is a superb supplement, because it allows connectivity via visual and auditory (and still allows a degree of privacy, i.e., we don't typically know each others phone numbers and don't get to interrupt normal activity). When I teach Internet only courses (two a year), I marvel at the low percentage (about 30%) of active participation, meaning that, in Creeker terminology, about 70% are lurkers who rarely do more than post their work. And, like the above post noting the percentages of topics generally addresses, there are necessary gateway topics (like sharpening, along with the avenues to do it) that have to be presented on a regular basis.

IMO, the forums are the resultant synthesis. We get to ask about questions in relatively anonymous community, and we get (sometimes) many different explanations. The OP can continue to nuance his/her needs, while others can piggy back on the initial question (to their hearts desire). I only wish that we educators could generate this level of interaction via on-line learning.

So, I view what SMC does as the almost replacement for magazines, except for distribution. If the magazines would integrate with SMC and the other forums and serve as a segue, then the photos we get to see here could be incorporated into the magazines, which could then reference the various forums and selected discussions. This might create the necessary links to time tested discussions on the necessary step topics (beginner to intermediate to advanced) and allow more folks to get involved.

One more thought: My parents attended college in the 60's before college became a rite of passage; they wanted to escape the farm. My grandparents were mostly too busy to show me how to use all the old tools in the barn/shed, so I just goofed around with them. At the ripe age of 30, two older men (shesh, my age now) offered to train me (one focused on hand tools; the other, on power tools). I picked the power tool guy with his 40x50 shop (rather than the 12x35 workbench shop). I didn't know that power tools weren't the only solution. I think that marketing (what tools we actually see on the shelf at the box and hardware stores) actually determine where many of us will enter the ww process. Thankfully, Internet search engines allow us access to wood working, past, present, and future. The forums give us insight on the values of each approach, and YouTube or others let us "demo" it, by watching others in action.