Brass engraving

[Michael Henriksen]

I have an enquiry from a customer about brass engraving. I've considered buying a fiber engraver anyway but haven't done much research into them to date. My customer wants to know if I can engrave up to 1mm deep in brass. Any suggestion what engraver will do that? I assume multiple passes would be required so a fairly slow process?

I did suggest etching but because of personalisation of the items that would be too labor intensive. Same goes for milling.

PS: I think 1mm depth is excessive for paint fill but that is what she asked for. However I can probably persuade her that less will do.

[Scott Shepherd]

Fiber lasering brass is hit or miss. I have seen many people say "I do it all the time, it works great, looks good". I've personally put 50 caliber brass shells into a fiber laser and no amount of anything leave ANY mark on the shell, much less one I'd say was "great". Then, others have said "I engrave shells all the time, it works great, here's proof". Well, proof that it worked on the shells you had doesn't solve the issue that at 100% power, .1% speed, it wouldn't leave any mark on brass. The same settings on stainless and it's shooting sparks. Only thing it did was make the brass hot.

Move on to a job we took doing Buck Knives, the brass part of them. All it would do is leave a very faint white mark on the brass, no matter what. However, the brass they used to drive a pin through it all to hold it together was a different grade of brass and did mark.

Another experience, a customer brought in machined brass and it marked fantastic. Nice and black and it would cut into the brass for certain.

With those experiences repeating themselves many times over, over the last few years, my advice to anyone with brass and a fiber would be the answer should almost always be "It may work, I'd have to have one to try and let you know for sure". There's nothing worse than telling someone you can do it and then getting the parts and finding out it won't even leave a mark.

[Michael Henriksen]

Thanks Scott, that is useful advise. I haven't made any promises, just told the customer I would look into it. I'm a bit weary of some of the claims from the Chinese vendors about what the engravers will do.

[Tim Bateson]

...With those experiences repeating themselves many times over, over the last few years, my advice to anyone with brass and a fiber would be the answer should almost always be "It may work, I'd have to have one to try and let you know for sure". There's nothing worse than telling someone you can do it and then getting the parts and finding out it won't even leave a mark.

Steve,

I have learned to do just that. Fiber settings are so much more complex than Co2, and inconsistent too - very temperamental to small differences in a similar metal or plastic. I had a major national company here today needing a number of hydraulic metal parts engraved. These are all different types of steel. I gave a rough ball park price. Asked for detail drawings for a better ballpark pricing. I told them that the final pricing could then be determined only after I actually engraved each type of part. A side bonus, by using this method I was able to learn what they've been paying in the past (for a poor quality engraving).

[Scott Shepherd]

I took it as a personal challenge to figure out from a scientific standpoint why it wouldn't mark those brass shell casings. I wanted to know and understand what was in the brass that would allow it to work or not work. I certainly found examples of the differences in the types of brass used to stamp shells out of sheet, but I didn't see any content percentages that varied enough to think it would make the difference in a mark and no mark. I thought it was isolated to the sheet stock materials used to punch shells casings, which allowed it to flow over the dies, but when it wouldn't touch the brass ends of a Buck knives, it threw that theory out.

[Kev Williams]

I have an enquiry from a customer about brass engraving. I've considered buying a fiber engraver anyway but haven't done much research into them to date. My customer wants to know if I can engrave up to 1mm deep in brass. Any suggestion what engraver will do that? I assume multiple passes would be required so a fairly slow process?

I did suggest etching but because of personalisation of the items that would be too labor intensive. Same goes for milling.

PS: I think 1mm depth is excessive for paint fill but that is what she asked for. However I can probably persuade her that less will do.

1: Brass should be engraved the old fashioned way, by actual engraving. Lasers are cool but cutter tools rule :D

2: Anyone in their right mind would never ask for 1mm (.039") deep engraving.

--ok, that wasn't very nice :D -- but I've told this (in a nice way ;) ) to hundreds of customers over the years. Most people, even engineers, don't realize how deep of engraving is actually needed for their job. There are certain reasons deep engraving is necessary, but paint filling personalized brass is not one of them. You only need .003" deep to paint fill, and .006" deep is like the grand canyon to Testors enamel :) - most common engraving depth asked for is .020", which is a 2-pass by tool run even in aluminum.

I made this plate in the pics YEARS ago as a visual aid to show people (on my old XT with a then-bad lead screw nut)...
When they see what .020" deep actually looks like, they're okay with my recommendations! (Same .012" tip x 22° draft tool engraved it all)
362948
362949
362950

-- the difference from .020 to .030 is, a LOT! Now add another .010 and you have 1mm...

And here's a thought- I bought some engravers brass not long ago. In the old days you got 1/16" thick. Then for many years it was .050" thick, almost the same, costs the mfr less. But last time, unless I wanted to special order online, typical leaded"door sign" brass I could find in a timely manner is now .040" thick-- or 1mm. Engrave this stuff 1mm deep and you have a stencil!

Next-- I don't do any non-laser etching so I'm clueless here, but I'm not sure why engraving (milling) would be too labor intensive? Engraving metal deep enough to be paint filled is MUCH faster than a fiber can do. And then there's the paint filling itself, fiber engraving leaves a nasty slag burr along the outline edges, unless you develop a very time consuming routine (which I've yet to figure out, but I'm close!) to remove it while engraving. This burr makes paint filling a nightmare. And even discounting paint, deep engraving by tool is much cleaner and nicer. For aesthetic items, engraving. Utilitarian items, fiber.

that's my http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/2cents.gif http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/2cents.gifhttp://www.engraver1.com/gifs/2cents.gif worth (inflation ;) )

[Michael Henriksen]

Thanks Kev. I figured deep milling on brass would take longer than lasering and prep time in CAM would be longer. Anyway milling won't work for this as the designs requires some sharp inside corners. I have previously cast pieces in tin for the customer and that has 1.2mm depth so I assume that is where the request from 1mm comes from. However I agree much less would suffice.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Q-Switched YAG for brass

[John Lifer]

I'll second Scott. I've been playing with brass shells, I've a couple that I engraved three different ways from a very nice white mark that is probably a half a thousanth deep to brown mark on surface. Several different shells would not do a thing... I've a key chain tag that is brass. Anneal settings worked great, but I could wipe the mark off and did with a dry rag! White engraving setting and it worked like a champ! Again about a half a thou deep. Silicon concentration probably is one of the factors. Maybe not, but I bet so!

[Ian Stewart-Koster]

I've cnc engraved brass too - for gravestone plaques etc - but also cut a vinyl mask, and etched it with ferric chloride.
There IS a learing curve, and cautions, but it was a good exercise for the job I used it for - needing a halftone photo etched and then blackened.

[Mike Null]

One of my customers (former) was an ammunition manufacturer and over the years I did a fairly good volume of work for them. Neither they nor I was ever totally pleased with the results of my diamond drag marking. I proceeded to do fairly extensive research into marking this brass with a fiber laser. I requested samples from a number of companies including a local one with American made equipment. None could produce a satisfactory mark. And if they could have done it it would have simply been too expensive. With that I scrapped all plans to buy a fiber laser as I have no desire to do guns or knives; the other requests I get with some frequency.

[Tim Bateson]

... With that I scrapped all plans to buy a fiber laser as I have no desire to do guns or knives; the other requests I get with some frequency.

Funny - different markets, just the opposite story. I was turning away a LOT of metal work, so I gambled (big time) and bought my first Fiber. In less than 2 years 50%-60% of my business is metal of all types from Guns to SpaceX & my 2nd Fiber is on it's way here now.

[Mike Null]

Tim

I know there are opportunities with guns and knives but that tends to be what I call retail business where the owners have to bring their items to my home for engraving. I don't want that traffic and try to limit my business to commercial and institutional work.

[John Kleiber]

Brass is not a problem for fiber. Here are some brass split rings I marked yesterday.
The specs required light etching of a part #/weight limit to be place on each side diametrically opposite of each other.
Once marked the machine shop will split the rings leaving 2 halves with the same mark.

Light marking is all I have ever done with brass. Tooled engraving would be far more practical for engraving where significant depth is desired.



-John

[Michael Henriksen]

John, what power are you running at? I wonder if those that were not able to engrave on brass simply didn't have the power needed available.

[Kev Williams]

With all due respect, saying brass is no problem for a fiber laser is akin to saying water is okay to drink; as with water, it all depends on the ingredients--;)

this is a screenshot of a PDF list of grades of brass and bronze,
365882
365881 <and this is the PDF

Some of these will lasers, some won't. Which will, which won't-- :confused: good question!

[John Lifer]

I would hazard to guess that the brass and bronze that contain non metal of a significant amount wont engrave well. Now what is significant? Who knows.

[John Kleiber]

John, what power are you running at? I wonder if those that were not able to engrave on brass simply didn't have the power needed available.

Michael, I revised my video from last week and incorporated EZCAD2 settings along with the specific type of brass as per the machine shops original drawing. I will post it up shortly.

-John

[John Kleiber]

Brass is not a problem for fiber. Here are some brass split rings I marked yesterday.
The specs required light etching of a part #/weight limit to be place on each side diametrically opposite of each other.
Once marked the machine shop will split the rings leaving 2 halves with the same mark.

Light marking is all I have ever done with brass. Tooled engraving would be far more practical for engraving where significant depth is desired.


https://youtu.be/UQcEgUg5t7Y

-John

[Scott Shepherd]

I have brass that won't mark with a fiber at all. You can't make it even make a faint mark. The brass shown above is free machining brass. Some sheet brass that is used for forming over dies will not mark. I have 50 caliber shells that won't mark under any conditions with the fiber. I set it at 100% power and .1 on the speed and it won't leave a single mark. All the way from 20KHz to 80KHz.

[Kev Williams]

When I was playing with a piece of pure copper, I found that, while lower speeds/low freqs/high power work great for hogging out aluminum, with copper power is the least important of the 3 settings. The ratio of speed to frequency was very important. I forget the settings, but I do remember that when I did find settings that marked, if I went like plus or minus 5 digits with the frequency the engraving stopped. I also found I could change the speed/freq any way I wanted, AS LONG AS the ratio of speed to freq remained the same. Changing power had little effect at all...
like this example (and this is where the spot diameter 'feature' is your friend)--
First, I have speed set at 1000 and frequency at 30k...
366196
-note the spot overlap graphic--

now I've doubled the speed and frequency to 2000 and 60k-
366197
--and the spot overlap is identical...

This overlap seems to be the critical factor with pure copper, and I would assume brass--
in this sample I changed the freq (only)from 60k to 65k, and note the overlap-
366199
not a lot different, but whereas (to my eye) at 60k the overlap is slightly less than 50%, at 65k looks to be slightly above 50%-- this could be the difference between marking and not marking. Again, these aren't my copper settings, just examples. But playing around with slight speed/freq changes, and using the spot graphic as visual, you may find a spot where that pesky brass will mark - or not ;)

--if you do, get out the calculator and figure out the slowest possible speed and freq ratio and enter those, and that will give you the biggest power spread you can apply... :)

[Scott Shepherd]

Red brass won't mark either. I had a batch of Buck knives and they used yellow brass to make the ends but red brass for the 1/4" diameter pins that held it all together. It would engrave the yellow brass and not leave any mark on the red brass. I ended up having to make masks and sandblast them.

[John Kleiber]

Scott / Kev,

I guess I'm just lucky. Based on all the conversation about marking ammo brass, yesterday I decided to laser engrave a .308 brass case.

My settings were:
Loop: 3
Speed:160
Power: 100
Freq: 20

Hatch .02 @ 45/90/315

Since Kev mentioned spot diameter was possibly a factor, my Spot Diameter was set to: 0.050mm at the time.

I marked the phrase "BRASS 308 CASE" along the side and the only letter that had an issue was the "E". I assumed the taper of the case wall caused an out of focus issue and it was a little lighter. Aside from the middle part of the "E", the rest was a nice deep mark.

-John

[John Lifer]

If you can consistently mark any brass, consider your machine blessed. I engraved a couple of shell casings when this post was first put out. I thought i had it wooped. So I changed the the and try another..... Nothing like that first couple! Lighter, fainter, junk! Tried a couple of more and just decided it was going to be inconsistent....

[John Kleiber]

Red brass won't mark either. I had a batch of Buck knives and they used yellow brass to make the ends but red brass for the 1/4" diameter pins that held it all together. It would engrave the yellow brass and not leave any mark on the red brass. I ended up having to make masks and sandblast them.

Scott,

Is the red brass you are referring to sort of pink in color when compared to the yellow brass?

-John