Soft New Irwin Chisel

[Steve H Graham]

I saw some Youtube dude proclaiming the virtues of the new Irwin chisels. I decided to try one. It arrived today.

Before doing anything, I decided to see how hard the steel was. I took out a Kershaw pocket knife, and I scratched the back of the chisel. I made tiny microscopic scratches in it. When I tried to scratch the knife with the chisel, the chisel slid on the knife like a butter knife on glass. No scratching.

I then grabbed a Home Depot Buck Bros. chisel and tried the same test. This is one of the cheapest chisels in the universe. The Irwin chisel could not mark it, but the Buck Bros. chisel could mark the Irwin.

I'm sending the Irwin back. Am I being unreasonable? Seems to me that a good chisel should be nice and hard. I suppose the Irwin will take an edge quickly, but it will also lose an edge quickly.

I don't feel bad about sending a scratched chisel back, because the next buyer will need a microscope to see the scratches, and he will want to flatten the back of the chisel anyway.

[Archie England]

I'm amazed at the logic of your process. That's great noodling! As to returning it because the steel is too soft, no, IMO that's fine.

[Steve H Graham]

It's also softer than a Narex.

[Steve H Graham]

I had a disturbing thought. What if I was slandering Irwin? Maybe the chisel had a thin coat of some kind of varnish on it, and when I thought I was scratching the steel, I was really scratching the coating? I remember seeing Frank Klausz take varnish off of a new chisel.

I wiped the chisel with solvent and tried again. The Buck still scratches it.

[Archie England]

Too funny!

[george wilson]

No,you are quite correct. Irwin USED to make good tools,and my current go to set of 29 drill bits from 1/16- 1/2" are Irwins. BUT they were made some long while ago,and I bought them unused from the used machinery dealer I frequented so much.

I don't know who bought Irwin out,but they are now cheap crud. If I may say something polite about them(my own opinion,of course!)

[Patrick Chase]

I then grabbed a Home Depot Buck Bros. chisel and tried the same test. This is one of the cheapest chisels in the universe. The Irwin chisel could not mark it, but the Buck Bros. chisel could mark the Irwin.

Those Buck chisels are actually pretty good for the money, and US-made as well. I have a set that I keep around as utility chisels and they sharpen up remarkably well. They come with decently flat backs, that tend to be ever so slightly concave if anything. My Narex chisels were a lot more hassle to prepare (due to a few of them having convex backs) than were those Bucks.

For all of the noise about Aldi I think that the Bucks are the best value in a new chisel that most of us can actually go to a nearby store and buy.



I'm sending the Irwin back. Am I being unreasonable? Seems to me that a good chisel should be nice and hard. I suppose the Irwin will take an edge quickly, but it will also lose an edge quickly.

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Patrick Chase]

One last question: How far back from the edge did you scratch the back of the chisels?

Some chisels are only fully hardened for the first couple inches of the blade. For example the Buck in front of me right now is hardened over the first 1.5" (it's a butt-type chisel with a 3" blade, so you'd never grind it back that far anyway). You can often spot the boundary in the scratch pattern left when working the back flat.

Is it possible that you tested an unhardened part of the blade?

[Daniel O'Connell]

I actually quite liked my cheap Irwins for a while when I was just getting going. It was fairly easy to get them sharp enough to do basic work on sandpaper and they hold up alright enough when paring with them, something I had significant trouble with until I got a better sharpening setup. I don't care for them at all when it comes to any kind of chopping however.

[lowell holmes]

I have to ask, did you try them on wood or just steel?

They are wood chisels you know. From what you tell us, the chisel probably wont do well there either.

[Steve H Graham]

I really wanted to be fair, so I tried to think of every error I could be making. I made sure there was no coating on the chisel. I checked it in various areas, including the bevel, which is surely hardened.

I did not see any point in trying the chisel on wood. To do that, I would have to sharpen it, and then I'd be stuck with what had already proven to be a soft chisel.

This wouldn't be such a surprise to me if people didn't say such nasty things about Buck Bros. chisels. I haven't had any problems at all with the ones I bought. I wonder if the people who hate them are just bad at sharpening. I bought them because they were cheap and convenient, and I figured they would be fun to play with while I decided what I really wanted. They keep working. What can I tell you? I feel like I'm inviting abuse by saying Buck Bros. chisels work, but they do.

Here's what I want to know: why can't Irwin make a good chisel in China? It looks like they got everything right except for the easiest part: hard steel. I'm a tool idiot, and if I wanted to, I could buy steel and make a good chisel.

[Patrick Chase]

This wouldn't be such a surprise to me if people didn't say such nasty things about Buck Bros. chisels. I haven't had any problems at all with the ones I bought. I wonder if the people who hate them are just bad at sharpening. I bought them because they were cheap and convenient, and I figured they would be fun to play with while I decided what I really wanted. They keep working. What can I tell you? I feel like I'm inviting abuse by saying Buck Bros. chisels work, but they do.

The Orange Borg sells a lot of bad hand tools, so there tends to be an assumption that any hand tool they sell must be bad. I agree with you that this case is an exception, because as I said earlier I've also found those chisels to be better than their reputation.

Also, let's face it, woodworking forum inhabitants can be a very snobbish bunch. If you believed everything written in some threads you might conclude that you can't do quality work without {L-N, Veritas, Blue Spruce, high-end Japanese, etc} chisels.

[steven c newman]

A "problem" with those ultra hard, un-scratchable chisels......BRITTLE.....like making a file into a chisel without tempering the steel. And, IF you can't scratch the steel...how the heck will you sharpen it?

[Patrick Chase]

A "problem" with those ultra hard, un-scratchable chisels......BRITTLE.....like making a file into a chisel without tempering the steel. And, IF you can't scratch the steel...how the heck will you sharpen it?

The Buck that he's comparing to is optimistically Rc59 or so, estimated by comparison to other HCS tools I have that are billed as being tempered to that hardness. If the Irwin can be scratched by that then it's definitely on the soft side for a chisel. Nothing we're talking about here is "ultra-hard" or brittle.

W.r.t. sharpening, as of the last time I checked we don't sharpen chisels with other chisels. Of the most common abrasives, SiO2 (arks, natural waterstones) is ~Rc69 and AlOx (synthetic oilstones and waterstones) is ~Rc76. Everything we're talking about here is way down in the "easy to sharpen" range.

[Steve H Graham]

I was at Home Depot today buying stuff I did not need, and I decided to fill out my collection of world-renowned Buck Bros. chisels with a 5/8". I had no problems sharpening it. The factory left an edge that was a little odd, so it took me a while, but the steel itself cut just fine on diamond stones.

I guess the quest for longer bench chisels that don't come from Home Depot can wait a little longer.

I should knock the plastic handles off of these, make fancy wooden ones, and stamp a snooty-sounding name on them. Maybe Neiman-Marcus.

[Patrick Chase]

I was at Home Depot today buying stuff I did not need, and I decided to fill out my collection of world-renowned Buck Bros. chisels with a 5/8". I had no problems sharpening it. The factory left an edge that was a little odd, so it took me a while, but the steel itself cut just fine on diamond stones.

Basically *everything* cuts fine on diamond stones, including solid carbide. When people complain about "hard to sharpen" they usually mean stuff that doesn't so well on Arkansas stones or maybe AlOx. It's hard to specify a threshold in terms of overall hardness since individual carbide size and hardness also plays into that, but suffice it to say that the Bucks are easy to sharpen.



I should knock the plastic handles off of these, make fancy wooden ones, and stamp a snooty-sounding name on them. Maybe Neiman-Marcus.

You're probably joking, but in case not: You can't do that. The bucks don't have a proper tang, just a ribbed shaft that sticks up into the molded-on plastic handle.

With that said, LV (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=30029&cat=1,41504) beat you to it.

[Jim Koepke]

I actually quite liked my cheap Irwins for a while when I was just getting going. It was fairly easy to get them sharp enough to do basic work on sandpaper and they hold up alright enough when paring with them, something I had significant trouble with until I got a better sharpening setup. I don't care for them at all when it comes to any kind of chopping however.

Howdy Daniel and welcome to the Creek.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

This wouldn't be such a surprise to me if people didn't say such nasty things about Buck Bros. chisels.

On of my most used sets of chisels are Buck Bros. socket chisels. I have some with plastic handles, but prefer wood. That doesn't seem such a nasty thing to say.

Some folks like plastic handles.

I have occasionally thought of the current set of Buck Bros. chisels at Craftsman Studios:

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/Buck-Bros-Bench-Chisels-p/c007301-base.htm

But I have pretty much accumulated a good set of the socket chisels.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

I had a weird thing happen on a forum about eight years ago. I had been carving white oak full time for four months, all my body could take. Then I read on a forum that a certain brand of carving tool was so soft it could only be used on pine. It was the brand I use. The weird thing was that the person disparaging this brand had never even tried them, let alone learned to use them.

Now we have a fellow testing chisels by scratching. I tried it last night myself. Using a Marples blue chip, which I abandoned about five years ago in favor of an 1830 chisel, I was able to scratch a Butcher chisel from about 1880. This butcher chisel I had used a few weeks ago to chop seven feet worth of end grain in white oak, after which it still cut white pine end grain rather well. I am skeptical enough that someone could test a chisel without the familiarity that comes with regular use; here we have people wanting to test without use.

[Archie England]

I have occasionally thought of the current set of Buck Bros. chisels at Craftsman Studios:
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/Buck-Bros-Bench-Chisels-p/c007301-base.htm


Anyone here use these? Could you tell how well you like their performance? Thanks

[Rick Malakoff]

Archie, I have looked at them many times and still can't justify buying another set. But the next time I place an order I'll add a 3/8 and try it out, that one got lost in my many moves.
Rick

[Steve H Graham]

Now we have a fellow testing chisels by scratching. I tried it last night myself. Using a Marples blue chip, which I abandoned about five years ago in favor of an 1830 chisel, I was able to scratch a Butcher chisel from about 1880. This butcher chisel I had used a few weeks ago to chop seven feet worth of end grain in white oak, after which it still cut white pine end grain rather well. I am skeptical enough that someone could test a chisel without the familiarity that comes with regular use; here we have people wanting to test without use.

Something to think about: what is my motivation for keeping and testing a chisel I know to be softer than a cheaper Home Depot chisel? You can't use a chisel unless you want to keep it, and I didn't feel like paying for it just so I could be a product tester. I've had plenty of experience with soft knives and tools, and it was all BAD, so I run from them. I try to learn from my mistakes instead of reliving them over and over. My only bad experience with overly hard steel was the purchase of an expensive, overrated Shun knife, which chipped easily. Now I use knives that aren't quite as hard, because I can sharpen one in five seconds and put it in the dishwasher later. I can't sharpen a chisel in five seconds.

I thought the idea that harder steel keeps its edge longer was pretty well settled. Is there evidence out there that soft steel can actually stay sharp longer? Is there a difference between hardness and resistance to dulling?

Maybe soft Irwin chisels are great, and they have some special quality that makes soft steel hold an edge, but I can get harder Narex chisels for similar money, and Narex has a better reputation.

I'm not surprised that a 19th-century chisel would be soft. It would be a sad thing if metallurgy had not improved in 137 years.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Howdy Daniel and welcome to the Creek.

+1, welcome Daniel!

[Kees Heiden]

Your last sentence is nonsence of course, Steve. In the 19th century smith's were fully aware how to regulate the hardness of a chisel. It's not black magic. More inportant, they actually cared about the quality of their products because their income depended on it. I am afraid Irwin doesn't care about the quality of their products at all.

[Patrick Chase]

Something to think about: what is my motivation for keeping and testing a chisel I know to be softer than a cheaper Home Depot chisel? You can't use a chisel unless you want to keep it, and I didn't feel like paying for it just so I could be a product tester. I've had plenty of experience with soft knives and tools, and it was all BAD, so I run from them. I try to learn from my mistakes instead of reliving them over and over. My only bad experience with overly hard steel was the purchase of an expensive, overrated Shun knife, which chipped easily. Now I use knives that aren't quite as hard, because I can sharpen one in five seconds and put it in the dishwasher later. I can't sharpen a chisel in five seconds.

I thought the idea that harder steel keeps its edge longer was pretty well settled. Is there evidence out there that soft steel can actually stay sharp longer? Is there a difference between hardness and resistance to dulling?

Maybe soft Irwin chisels are great, and they have some special quality that makes soft steel hold an edge, but I can get harder Narex chisels for similar money, and Narex has a better reputation.

I'm not surprised that a 19th-century chisel would be soft. It would be a sad thing if metallurgy had not improved in 137 years.

Warren's point is that hardness isn't everything, particularly for Western chisels. This is so for at least two reasons:


Beyond a certain point hardness is a liability. Harder steels are also more brittle and prone to chipping, and require higher edge angles as a consequence. Those higher edge angles lead to higher cutting forces, which are undesirable for a number of reasons. All of the chisels we're discussing here are <=Rc59, though, so I don't think this really comes into play for you. A lot of folks swear by HCS/O1 paring chisels precisely because the "softer" steel allows use of a finer edge.
The steels used in Western chisels contain carbides that are significantly harder and more abrasion-resistant than the overall matrix. These help edge life by "reinforcing" the edge, and thereby decouple edge life from overall hardness to an extent. If they're too large (coarse grain structure) they limit ultimate sharpness and hurt edge life by promoting chipping. They can also make sharpening difficult. With the exception of Narex the chisel's we're discussing are all HCS, so most of the carbide content will consist of relatively small Ferrite bits. Again this one probably isn't a huge factor for you.

More broadly, the topic of how much improvement metallurgy has wrought in woodworking steels is a very "religious" one. I would advise not going any further down that path, as you will find the resulting discussion to be both contentious and fairly impervious to fact and reason.

Warren is also right that the "scratch test" is not terribly precise, though for purely relative determinations ("Is X harder or softer than Y") it's workable. After all that's more or less how the Mohs hardness scale was established.

[Steve H Graham]

Your last sentence is nonsence of course, Steve. In the 19th century smith's were fully aware how to regulate the hardness of a chisel. It's not black magic. More inportant, they actually cared about the quality of their products because their income depended on it. I am afraid Irwin doesn't care about the quality of their products at all.

That is, of course, nonsense. :) I don't know the reason for the 1880 chisel's softness, but the steel itself matters, as do improvements in hardening technology. Surely you don't think 1880 steel cutting tools are just as good as the best steel tools made in 2017.

As for saying metallurgy isn't black magic, well, nothing could be farther from the truth. It's a very strange business. Ask a TIG welder.

[Steve H Graham]

More broadly, the topic of how much improvement metallurgy has wrought in woodworking steels is a very "religious" topic. I would advise not going any further down that path, as you will find the resulting discussion to be both contentious and fairly impervious to fact and reason.

Warren is also right that the "scratch test" is not terribly precise, though for purely relative determinations ("Is X harder or softer than Y") it's workable. After all that's more or less how the Mohs hardness scale was established.

I agree with that, and I especially agree with the bit about arguing about metallurgy. For example, the world is full of people who saw the movie Highlander and now think there is a magical ancient steel which can slice through concrete parking garage pillars. Many people believe "Damascus steel," which is something that doesn't even exist as a type, is as flexible as a leaf spring and as hard as a diamond. In reality, you can buy better steel at Bed Bath & Beyond all day.

I had a "Damascus" Shun knife, and someone put it in the dishwasher. It bumped against another item, and two chunks fell out of it. Kind of amusing, but I spent $80 on it.

[Patrick Chase]

Your last sentence is nonsence of course, Steve. In the 19th century smith's were fully aware how to regulate the hardness of a chisel. It's not black magic. More inportant, they actually cared about the quality of their products because their income depended on it. I am afraid Irwin doesn't care about the quality of their products at all.

If we're just talking about conventional HCS, then yes, the smiths of yore could do a pretty creditable job. They couldn't and didn't always do so (see: Titanic, embrittled rivets used in manufacture of) but their best products are right up there with anything made from HCS today.

There's no way they could have achieved something like PM-V11 or even a modern HSLA-family steel (though obviously you wouldn't use the latter in a chisel). The knowledge and technology simply didn't exist.

[Pat Barry]

Your last sentence is nonsence of course, Steve. In the 19th century smith's were fully aware how to regulate the hardness of a chisel. It's not black magic. More inportant, they actually cared about the quality of their products because their income depended on it. I am afraid Irwin doesn't care about the quality of their products at all.
Its nonsense to say Irwin doesn't care about the quality of their products. I'm sure they have specifications for important things, including hardness. All the testing so far that Steve has done has just been comparative and really doesn't enlighten anyone as to the quality of the tool, let alone allow us to make gross generalizations about the general state of care or concern to quality of a major manufacturer.

Those old tools are precious becasue they were good enough to survive. I'm sure the junk yards and scrap yards are loaded with lesser quality old tools that weren't good enough for whoever it may have been. As I pointed out a few times previously, old bad tools went to the scrap yard to be melted down and re-purposed as war equipment in WWI and WWII, bot in the US and Europe.

[Robert Engel]

Keep in mind only the last inch or so may be hardened.

I have a set of Irwin Marples as a utility set. The work quite well as firmer chisels doing mortises, etc.

Plus, how hard does it need to be? There is a trade off for that too

[Mel Fulks]

I guess specs that that set a low bar....can still be called "technical real specs". Good stuff gets melted down too. Ask
Cellini.

[Pat Barry]

I guess specs that that set a low bar....can still be called "technical real specs". Good stuff gets melted down too. Ask
Cellini.
Right, but before we talk about Irwin's 'low bar', I suggest getting some actual facts might be in order.

[lowell holmes]

I have two brands of chisels, old Stanley and Lie Nielsen. The Lie Nielsen chisels are outstanding.
Most of the Stanley chisels are good, there is some junk there. My Stanley chisels are old 750's.
Stanley is an old line and they did occasionally put out junk.

I don't hesitate to buy an old 750 if I run across one. The 720 line is good also.

[Steve H Graham]

I suspect I've provoked one or more people who invested in multiple Irwin chisels.

Here is my take on it. This is not the first time I've checked a cutting tool's hardness by scratching it. I have done it with many knives. The ones that scratched easily turned out to be inferior and annoying to use. Maybe now someone will chime in with a hopeful, "Knives are not chisels."

I remember trading pocket knives with my great uncle when I was a kid. Case knives from the 1960's were popular in his area. The steel was okay, and they cut pretty well for their time, although they were vastly inferior to stainless knives other companies were starting to make. Then someone at Case made a bad decision, and they started turning out knives with blades that were a lot like aluminum. They dropped down into the garbage tier along with brands like Camillus. The Irwin chisel reminded me of that.

Perhaps I am making a horrible mistake, but I am content. To me, it's like going on a date and hearing calls from collection agencies while you wait for the woman in her living room. Not irrefutable proof, but not a good sign! A good signal to slip out the front door or even climb out a window. And I can get Narex for $2 more, with ample reason to believe they will provide fine service.

I now refer all future complaints to George Wilson, who doesn't like them either. Go get him!

[Pat Barry]

A quick G.....e search finds multiple reviews citing Rc 58 to 61 for hardness. They say that's what a chisel should be. Who knows?

[Peter Christensen]

Steve search for Hardness Testing File Sets. They start about $75 and go up from there. They will give you a more consistent comparison. Not perfect but a lot cheaper than a Rockwell tester.

[Daniel O'Connell]

Howdy! And thanks for the gracious welcome

[Patrick Chase]

Steve search for Hardness Testing File Sets. They start about $75 and go up from there. They will give you a more consistent comparison. Not perfect but a lot cheaper than a Rockwell tester.

The problem with those files is that they're pretty coarsely spaced. Typical sets go about Rc +5 between files, which is on the same order as the difference between a properly hardened file and an unusably soft one.

If you all you want to know is whether A is significantly harder than B then the scratch test is about the best you can do short of a full-blown hardness tester.

[Peter Christensen]

I know Patrick I was a quality inspector for better than 27 years so had training on hardness and conductivity for the aerospace parts we made. They will give Steve a ballpark reading to back up his other comparisons. When it bugs him enough he'll go out and buy a hardness tester of his own. ;)

[steven c newman]

I don't like Irwins either, for chisels. Most of my "go-to" are from the 1920 or before. Butcher, Witherby, and the OLD Buck Brothers. "Modern" chisels were from Aldis. I really do not care if they can be scratched by metal, I try to avoid such things while using them on wood. IF I want to "chisel" metal...I have Cold Chisels by Endereres (sp) or Arrow.

[Patrick Chase]

I know Patrick I was a quality inspector for better than 27 years so had training on hardness and conductivity for the aerospace parts we made. They will give Steve a ballpark reading to back up his other comparisons. When it bugs him enough he'll go out and buy a hardness tester of his own. ;)

The method he used has a long history.

Back before there were hardness gauges, much less Rockwell/Vickers/Knoop/etc scales, somebody noticed that diamond scratched everything else, so they said "let diamond be called a 10"

Then they discovered that diamond and pretty much only diamond scratched carborundum, so they said "let carborundum be called a 9"

Next they realized that diamond and carborundum scratched corundum, and said "let corundum be called 8"

Then there was quartz, which could be scratched by diamond, carborundum, and corundum. As you might expect quart was 7, and so on. It's called the Mohs hardness scale.

There is absolutely *nothing* unreasonable or invalid about what the OP did. For a long time that was the state of the hardness-testing art. I find it mildly amusing that our resident 18th-19th Century woodworking devotee/expert was the one who objected most strenuously to an historically correct 18th-19th century method for evaluating hardness.

BTW, carborundum == SiC (wet/dry paper, Crystolon), corundum == AlOx (most synthetic stones and sandpapers), quartz == novaculite (Arks and Jnats).

[Warren Mickley]

I objected to the original posters proclamation that harder steel is always superior. And that one can judge a chisel simply by knowing its hardness. All chisels could be manufactured to be harder simply by tempering less. We have known this technology for millennia. We deliberately temper for a tougher less brittle chisel.

I happen to think that professional woodworkers of two hundred years ago had a better feel for chisel quality than today's dilettantes. The quality shows up in the surviving examples.

Mohs hardness scale was around for 70 or 80 years before the discovery of carborundum.

[bridger berdel]

Surely you don't think 1880 steel cutting tools are just as good as the best steel tools made in 2017.

Define "best"

[bridger berdel]

I find it mildly amusing that our resident 18th-19th Century woodworking devotee/expert was the one who objected most strenuously to an historically correct 18th-19th century method for evaluating hardness.


No sir, he objected to the idea that hardness is the ultimate standard by which chisels should be judged.

[Patrick Chase]

I objected to the original posters proclamation that harder steel is always superior. And that one can judge a chisel simply by knowing its hardness. All chisels could be manufactured to be harder simply by tempering less. We have known this technology for millennia. We deliberately temper for a tougher less brittle chisel.

I happen to think that professional woodworkers of two hundred years ago had a better feel for chisel quality than today's dilettantes. The quality shows up in the surviving examples.

Mohs hardness scale was around for 70 or 80 years before the discovery of carborundum.

Yep, you're right. Mohs' 9 was Corundum, and 8 was Topaz. That's what I get for trying to regurgitate the scale from memory instead of looking it up.

As you know and I've already said (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?255832-Soft-New-Irwin-Chisel&p=2702475#post2702475), I agree that hardness is far from the only factor in determining what's a good tool.

[Mike Baker 2]

I've done a lot of research for a newbie, trying to understand chisels, and how to choose them.
I have discovered along the way that many of the cheap chisels are made with Chrome Vanadium, which as I understand it can get very hard compared to something like simple carbon steel. Yet from my research, I see that CV doesn't hold an edge near as well as good, well tempered carbon steel. So it stands to reason, at least in my small head, that hardness is only one factor in edge retention/sharpness.
I have no clue what metal/alloy the Irwins are manufactured from, but in the case of "the scratch test", shouldn't some kind of measure be taken to ensure that the steels used are at least similar in composition?
Please keep well in mind that I am not responding to the OP's method of testing, it is just that the conversation brought this line of thought into my head. And please be gentle to the newbie; I realize that there is way more I don't know than that which I do.
I have settled on the fact that I prefer a bit softer steel, one easier to sharpen quickly. I keep sharpening media with me, and touch up as often as necessary. Takes very little time, and I'm back to work again.

[george wilson]

I miss my Versitron hardness tester. The best made. But,there asre various means by which hardness can be checked. If you have enough experience you can develop a "feel" for checking things with a good,fine cut file.

I mentioned before that I bought a set of pre war Addis carving tools. They were SO HARD they would not take a sharp edge! I had to draw their temper down to a blue color. This was in my 18th. C. Instrument shop in the museum. I laid the offending carving tools on the top of my hot side bending iron(Guitar sides mostly). That cured the problem. And,was all I had at the time.

It is a FACT that PLAIN CARBON STEEL will take a sharper edge than any other steel. But then,there are so many other things like,carbon content(Some of these cheap chisels have only enough carbon in them -.40-.50%-they'll barely harden. Sears used to sell CRAFTSMAN chisels made in Holland that were like that. They probably decided that your average home fixup was going to use them for prying off paint can lids!! And,that MIGHT BE TRUE. Now,there is a growing tide of real craftsmen who need real tools. The presence of high dollar plane,saw,and chisel offerings from high end makers these days proves that.

Irwin has gone to the dumps. And,that is not just snobbish gossip. Their new stuff is nothing like my NOS set of HSS Irwin drill bits. They are as good as any. I drill tool steel with them all the time,like a manly man,not a girly man !:)

I like their plastic squeeze grip clamps. I have about 3 dozen of their 6" and 12" opening clamps. WHY do I like them? They are LIGHT WEIGHT. A guitar in a mold,with 24 clamps holding the top or back on gets too heavy to turn over,with the older type wooden cam clamps with steel rod and 10" wooden jaws. THOSE make the whole guitar so WIDE,I had to turn it over at ARM'S LENGTH. But,I'm older now! And I even made those cam clamps myself.

[Steve H Graham]

I don't think I actually proclaimed anything. In fact, I proclaim that I didn't.

[john davey]

I agree that the bucks are not that bad for an easily obtainable chisel. I purchased a 3/8 buck bros a few years ago and it has served me well. I keep it in a toolbox of tools I use away from home....


Those Buck chisels are actually pretty good for the money, and US-made as well. I have a set that I keep around as utility chisels and they sharpen up remarkably well. They come with decently flat backs, that tend to be ever so slightly concave if anything. My Narex chisels were a lot more hassle to prepare (due to a few of them having convex backs) than were those Bucks.

For all of the noise about Aldi I think that the Bucks are the best value in a new chisel that most of us can actually go to a nearby store and buy.



Sounds reasonable to me.

[Ted Reischl]

Irwin should hire the OP. He can then take his pocket knife to work and provide the quality control he thinks they need.

Just a note, harder is not always better as we all know. Too hard and the edge fractures. So he uses a KNIFE which has a very different purpose to judge a chisel. I have never seen anyone chop mortises with a knife. The point being, the OP is using some arbitrary test to bad mouth a very different product.

[Steve H Graham]

It's amazing, the emotion an honest post full of disclaimers can elicit.

[Jim Koepke]

It's amazing, the emotion an honest post full of disclaimers can elicit.

Yes, sadly it is almost the norm in today's world.

In another thread my comment about an obvious difference between two items turned in to me bad mouthing the folks who are trying to recreate a treasure from the past.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

It's amazing, the emotion an honest post full of disclaimers can elicit.
To be clear, in the very first post there were no disclaimers whatsoever.

Note : you didn't mention your results with the knife blade scratch test on the Buck chisel. How did that work out for you?

[David Ragan]

Go re-read the original post, then come back and edit your comment accordingly.

.

Amen. I posted in the past two diffo things that folks got vociferously into. Couple years ago. I kept saying "Re-read my post.....please respond to my exact situation....not what you want it to be..."

The two principle bashers never did.

How disappointing. I fact, part of why I have been largely absent from here the last couple of years.

(This is strictly an editorial comment-I am not engaging in the current chisel discussion.)

[Steve H Graham]

I feel like I am dodging a nit comb.

The first post contained an IMPLICIT disclaimer, and the ensuing posts made it very clear I was not pretending to be an expert.


I'm sending the Irwin back. Am I being unreasonable? Seems to me that a good chisel should be nice and hard. I suppose the Irwin will take an edge quickly, but it will also lose an edge quickly.

At least a few people thought my post was useful enough to justify their participation, but I'm starting to feel like I should never say anything here without a team of NASA engineers and a peer-reviewed paper to back me up. I'm a lawyer. Maybe I should write formal memoranda that meet Blue Book standards instead of informal forum posts.

I don't recall whether I tried to scratch the Buck chisel with a knife. The chisel was several years old, and Home Depot was not likely to take it back, so it didn't occur to me to test it.

I just gave it a whack, and I didn't see any scratches. Mind you, I am drawing NO CONCLUSIONS. Maybe the chisel's steel is just as good as the knife's steel. Maybe it's much, much worse. Maybe it's not even steel. Maybe there is no chisel. Maybe I hallucinated the entire thing. I claim nothing! If it seems like I'm claiming anything, I retract it.

[David Ragan]

I feel like I am dodging a nit comb.

The first post contained an IMPLICIT disclaimer, and the ensuing posts made it very clear I was not pretending to be an expert.



At least a few people thought my post was useful enough to justify their participation, but I'm starting to feel like I should never say anything here without a team of NASA engineers and a peer-reviewed paper to back me up. I'm a lawyer. Maybe I should write formal memoranda that meet Blue Book standards instead of informal forum posts.

I don't recall whether I tried to scratch the Buck chisel with a knife. The chisel was several years old, and Home Depot was not likely to take it back, so it didn't occur to me to test it.

I just gave it a whack, and I didn't see any scratches. Mind you, I am drawing NO CONCLUSIONS. Maybe the chisel's steel is just as good as the knife's steel. Maybe it's much, much worse. Maybe it's not even steel. Maybe there is no chisel. Maybe I hallucinated the entire thing. I claim nothing! If it seems like I'm claiming anything, I retract it.


Formal papers? Engineers? Excellent.

Well, I guess part of my problem (back when) was taking the feedback too personally or seriously.....as a JD, you know that logical thinking can be rather absent from an otherwise fact-filled mind.

Likewise, when all the drama cranked in around folks response to me earlier-I tried to grin and bear it. I rationalized-maybe not all folks responding (at that time) were able to follow my writing; perhaps a deficit in abstract thinking?

Maybe next time, go w an EXPLICIT disclaimer. Something simple, and clear.

I do appreciate your point that nothing is real....it's all just waves of light emanating from what is a substance that is 99.99999% empty space.

[Steve H Graham]

I humbly apologize. Your view is the better one, and I retract my ridiculous assertions.

[David Ragan]

I humbly apologize. Your view is the better one, and I retract my ridiculous assertions.

Excellent, I shall remember that one for my beautiful wife!

[Patrick Chase]

I feel like I am dodging a nit comb.

The first post contained an IMPLICIT disclaimer, and the ensuing posts made it very clear I was not pretending to be an expert.

You were fine IMO. I didn't read your post as being worded in a way that implied expertise (the trap I tend to fall into :-) or advising anybody else about what they should do. You simply stated what you'd done, and asked opinions.

To be honest it just makes me sad to see highly knowledgeable and skilled people who could be terrific assets to the forum and to the hobby in general, but who choose to spend their cycles belittling others.

One other blunt remark: This is sort of an SMC rite of passage. You should see some of my early threads (though as noted above I caused more of my own grief than you did here).

[Pat Barry]

It's funny how everyone gets all with the better than, holier than thou attitude all of a sudden. Like a bunch of old ladies gossiping about their neighbors.

[Patrick Chase]

It's funny how everyone gets all with the better than, holier than thou attitude all of a sudden. Like a bunch of old ladies gossiping about their neighbors.

Begone, Troll! :-):-):-)

That's an eminently fair comment of course.

[Steve H Graham]

As forums go, this isn't that bad. I belong to an electronics forum. Almost every time I ask a question, I get insulted within the first few responses. I finally realized there was no way to prevent it, because it didn't matter what I said. I learned to treat them like mental patients. "Yessssss, Google IS my friend, and I AM wasting valuable bandwidth! Thank you for suggesting something I already did fifteen times before I came here. I am awed by your genius and by the awesome collection of Lord of the Rings action figures which, I'm pretty sure, you have standing around your water-cooled ten-horsepower gaming system. Now about that filter capacitor..."

[george wilson]

You ain't seen nothing,Steve! Try going to a machinist's forum. That is where the trash and trolls really live. I have gotten the feeling that a lot of these armchair experts can barely run a lathe and make simple parts. Then,they call themselves MACHINISTS!! And some say "The ONLY machinists today should be CNC operators." In other words push button operators. There may be some truth in that. We can't live without cheaply manufactured parts. We really can't. But,in small job shops there are still plenty of manual machines.

A MACHINIST should be well able to operate ALL the machines in a shop,and do all operations required,including spiral milling and gear making. And,I have seen precious few of those.

[george wilson]

I repeat: Irwin seems to have been another of those companies whose names were bought out by the Chinese. Milwaukee is one of the latest to go,that I know of. And,Milwaukee was always a top ranked maker of drills and other equipment. I wonder how good they will be made in China?

THE TRUTH IS: We have no one to blame except the general public. If they were willing to pay the Chinese decent prices,they'd get decent tools. But,we here are not the usual home handiman who wants to make repairs to his house,then let his paint spattered tools languish in a bucket in the cellar until the screen door falls off again. And THIS IS GOSPEL!!!! I have even SEEN that bucket set in a drip somewhere,and allowed to fill up with EL AGUA MUCHO!!!

I had the unique experience of being in public for 16 years. In a shop full of beautiful carved and inlaid instruments we made,as well as plain,but still the finest. I can't tell you how many times I had to put up with idiots. Especially old men,who would ignore the fine work,focus on some tiny detail,and TRY to run the whole shop down. HEAVENS,I bumped a SMALL carving tool along a few times WITH MY PALM!!! Of course I did not do that all day. Just didn't bother to reach for a mallet. (The mallet could have served better to club those two into unconsciousness!:) This flak from these worthies while dressed in their orange jump suits,looking like escaped prisoners!:) Born fools,lived as fools,and will die as fools. Why did they bother coming here? Probably dragged along by their wives. It still aggravates me(can't you tell?) :)

I had one old man who we had seen a newspaper article about. He made lutes with PLASTIC,molded roses(the sound hole) in them. They did not have molded plastic roses in the old days,and we made AUTHENTIC instruments. He tried running us down in front of a big crowd because his roses popped out to make easier access to the inside of his lutes for repair work. But they still looked like someone in Disney Land was selling them as Christmas tree ornaments!!! I have dealt with several of those types!!

What I'm getting at is a LOT of people haven't the faintest idea of grace,quality,aesthetics,or anything else in products. THEY keep this tide of nearly given away Asian junk rolling in here. Good! More old,finely made tools for ME to find in flea markets!!! (Except that these days the flea markets are being done in because everything is on Ebay! That might be o.k. for me,as my knees have given out,and I just can't walk too far. I used to walk MILES through those flea market expos ! I DID get some treasures!!:)

I mentioned before how I JUST started out in Kutztown,Pa.,with $500.00 in my pocket(in the 70's). What did I SOON find? A VERY LARGE display of perfect condition(used,but not messed up or rusty) carving tools,saws,etc. That just came out of an active old carving shop which had sold out and closed. There was this very large young man selling them. I SIGHED. Here I was just getting started,and here I was going to blow my whole wad. Those tools were just irresistible. And,this was back when I hadn't a lot in my home shop.

I asked this walking computer(but the INTEL was missing :)!!!) What he wanted per carving tool. He says $40.00 each. THAT was a very high price back then. I could buy carving tools for $2.50 usually. But,these were too exceptional. All the best 19th.C. brands.

So,I picked out 24 (If I recall) carving tools,and asked the price. He screwed his face around for a minute and said "$150.00". Wyatt Earp had nothing on the speed with which I yanked my money out!!!! He would have been a dead duck,had it been a gunfight!!!:) I paid up and quickly went my way,still well off enough to enjoy the rest of the weekend!

So,a while later,this guy shows up following me,carrying a very fine Atkins miter box saw. All bright blade,used but never abused in any way. The old applewood handle had reached a magnificent chestnut brown color from sunlight over many decades. He wanted me to pay him $50.00 for it. I think he finally figured out his mistake,and was trying to recover SOMETHING,at least. I had no use for the saw,and STILL have it,never have used it. about 30" of very small teeth! I felt sorry for him and gave him the $50.00. A beautiful tool,but I was not a furniture maker. I need to sell it.

What is the point of this tale? I haven't the slightest idea!!! But some guys here seem to like my tool and wood stories,of which I have quite a few,woodworking being my whole life. And,I'm tired of leaving a space after a comma!

I wonder WHO is the snob being referred to? I don't think I have said anything untrue,or snobbish.

[Curt Harms]

Your last sentence is nonsence of course, Steve. In the 19th century smith's were fully aware how to regulate the hardness of a chisel. It's not black magic. More inportant, they actually cared about the quality of their products because their income depended on it. I am afraid Irwin doesn't care about the quality of their products at all.

I think they do, but not in the way that people in Neanderthal Haven care. Irwin cares that the typical home center chisel purchaser finds their product good enough and good value. The typical U.S. home center chisel purchaser has not a clue about flattening the back of a chisel or sharpening it before use. It's new, it has to be sharp ..... doesn't it? Does bring it home, take it out of the package and start beating on it. Doesn't frequent internet hand tool forums. I think that's a fair characterization of the typical U.S. home center tool purchaser and the market that Irwin caters to.

[george wilson]

Possibly the average home owner does not even try sharpening his chisel. Or grinds it on his bench grinder. Then,goes to work with it!

Now,THAT was SNOBBISH!! But I'm thinking of all those I had to put up with. And,be polite to,NO MATTER WHAT,in the museum.

[Warren Mickley]

I have discovered along the way that many of the cheap chisels are made with Chrome Vanadium, which as I understand it can get very hard compared to something like simple carbon steel. Yet from my research, I see that CV doesn't hold an edge near as well as good, well tempered carbon steel. So it stands to reason, at least in my small head, that hardness is only one factor in edge retention/sharpness.


It is kind of funny to see this comment about Chrome Vanadium steel. This steel was the A2 and PMV 11 of its day.

The chrome-vanadium steel blades hardened to Rc 58-62 hold an edge better than a standard carbon steel blade. [Lee Valley catalog 1984/85]

[george wilson]

Perfectly true,Warren. But I am sure that you know that everything in steel is a trade off. Alloys will hold the edge longer. But I guarantee that simple 1085 or 1095 gets sharper than anything else. Except POSSIBLY the new powdered steels. I haven't yet enough experience with them to comment.

Tool sharpness really becomes evident and very important,when trying to cut a soft,rubbery,fuzzy material like chrome tanned sea ray skin! I had to resort to my LN block plane when trying to skive it down to tissue paper thin. I was repairing an 18th. C. ray skin covered tailor's folding rule case. The case was about 4" long,holding a walrus ivory folding rule in French 18th. C. lignes,and would unfold to about 18" The lignes were about 1 1/8" each,of our inches. The LN was equipped with a plain carbon steel blade. It beat the A2 blades by a mile. The soft fuzz was just too yielding to stand up to the extra pressure that the A2 blade needed,no matter how sharp I got it. I haven't yet tried the PM V11 blade of my LV NX 60,which was a later purchase.

The original ray skin was vegetable tanned,and literally thinner than the thinnest tissue paper. It isn't available any more vegetable tanned. I had to send to England to get a skin in the first place.Vegetable tanned leaves a stiffer layer under the outer skin,and can be more easily skived. The old guy who skived the original ray skin(and probably was a specialist who never did anything else!,got that pebbly textured skin so thin,you can very nearly see through it. The original ray skin needed repair. What was left of it fell off!

Mike,you are perfectly correct,too. But,those alloys that aid in holding a good edge sacrifice the maximum sharpness than you can get on it. Maybe try stropping a CV chisel on a wet jelly fish!:)

Most of the time a CV tool will get sharp enough for general use. However,when carving VERY THIN elements like the rose of a lute,you definitely need ALL the edge you can get. If the tool requires too much force to cut,it can break off the little elements you are trying to carve. The lute rose below is 1/16" thick where the vines are. The surrounds are 1/8". I just used a German carving knife of plain carbon steel(actually I had made a new blade for it when the original got worn too much. I used 1095. Look how narrow the "tails" of the vines get. They will not stand much cutting pressure. And,the image is larger than the real rose. It is shown at 6 1/2" diameter. The real one is 4" in diameter.

The ultimate strop is said to be the palm of the hand. I will give a chisel a few strops on my palm every so often when using a chisel or knife,etc..

[Mike Baker 2]

It is kind of funny to see this comment about Chrome Vanadium steel. This steel was the A2 and PMV 11 of its day.

The chrome-vanadium steel blades hardened to Rc 58-62 hold an edge better than a standard carbon steel blade. [Lee Valley catalog 1984/85]

Don't forget that the gentleman who posted the comment you quoted is a novice, and was relating what he had found by looking through various forums and posts, in an effort to learn what he should really be looking for in a chisel. And that he posted a disclaimer saying he was a poor, ignorant newbie, as well.
And that his post was another effort to learn something from those who have more experience than he.
:D

[Robert Engel]

If they were willing to pay the Chinese decent prices,they'd get decent tools.
The average American consumer shops by price and this applies to ww'ers, too. You get what you pay for.

The American companies who no longer make their own products, have to stand behind their name and keep the QC level high.

But too many have opted for cheap products at cheap prices.

[Pat Barry]

Begone, Troll! :-):-):-)

That's an eminently fair comment of course.
Sick of this entirely. Now not only acting like old ladies but juveniles with the name calling. Complete BS in my opinion. Can't have an adult discussion here if you don't agree.

[george wilson]

Can't take a joke,Pat?

[Patrick Chase]

Sick of this entirely. Now not only acting like old ladies but juveniles with the name calling. Complete BS in my opinion. Can't have an adult discussion here if you don't agree.

Yeah, humor doesn't always convey well in a forum. I repeated the "Begone, Troll" as a riff off of my comment saying the same thing in another thread, hence the smiley faces.

"That's an eminently fair comment" was in response to your comment, i.e. I think that what you were saying is a reasonable critique. I realize that it could be interpreted as claiming that calling you a troll was "fair", so my apologies for not being more careful with my wording.

As George points out and demonstrates in his posts, we all need to lighten up a little, and that includes me.

[Mel Fulks]

Sick of this entirely. Now not only acting like old ladies but juveniles with the name calling. Complete BS in my opinion. Can't have an adult discussion here if you don't agree.
I'd like to help stop trolling ....but all my time is taken up by the Anti Engineer Bashing Committee.

[Jim Koepke]

What is the point of this tale? I haven't the slightest idea!!!

To me it seems the point was to liven up our morning reading.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

George, Are those encircling disks the sun at all 12 months, looks like "June" and "December" are placed accordingly?
I apoligize for brief detour.

[James Waldron]

Yeah, humor doesn't always convey well in a forum. I repeated the "Begone, Troll" as a riff off of my comment saying the same thing in another thread, hence the smiley faces.

"That's an eminently fair comment" was in response to your comment, i.e. I think that what you were saying is a reasonable critique. I realize that it could be interpreted as claiming that calling you a troll was "fair", so my apologies for not being more careful with my wording.

As George points out and demonstrates in his posts, we all need to lighten up a little, and that includes me.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFvujknrBuE

[Patrick Chase]

It is kind of funny to see this comment about Chrome Vanadium steel. This steel was the A2 and PMV 11 of its day.

The chrome-vanadium steel blades hardened to Rc 58-62 hold an edge better than a standard carbon steel blade. [Lee Valley catalog 1984/85]

Well, it's entirely true inasmuch as it doesn't say anything about *taking* an edge :-).

[Patrick Chase]

I wonder WHO is the snob being referred to? I don't think I have said anything untrue,or snobbish.

Not you, and no one in this thread. It was more a general observation, and one that I've seen you and Warren make as well :-)

[Steve H Graham]

You ain't seen nothing,Steve! Try going to a machinist's forum. That is where the trash and trolls really live. I have gotten the feeling that a lot of these armchair experts can barely run a lathe and make simple parts. Then,they call themselves MACHINISTS!! And some say "The ONLY machinists today should be CNC operators." In other words push button operators. There may be some truth in that. We can't live without cheaply manufactured parts. We really can't. But,in small job shops there are still plenty of manual machines.

A MACHINIST should be well able to operate ALL the machines in a shop,and do all operations required,including spiral milling and gear making. And,I have seen precious few of those.

Practical Machinist is where people who love the Internet go to have their minds changed.

[george wilson]

You speak with wisdom,Steve!!

The reason I really do wonder if some are machinists is due to the volume of incredibly basic questions that get asked there. The antique machinery forum is inhabited by a friendlier and more aesthetic minded group. I love antique machines myself. BUT,if I'm trying to make a dollar,I'll keep my modern HLVH and other more efficient machines. I think my oldest machine is a perfectly restored(and never worn out( Ca. 1950 Walker Turner 20" drill press. The MODERN ones seldom run slower than 300 RPM,which will quickly totally destroy HSS drills. Mine CAN drill 1 1/2" holes at a sufficiently low speed to actually work. I doubt there are many NEW drill presses that can do that without a VFD installed on them. But,that Walker Turner is the most beautiful drill press I have seen(not a fan of the old camel back jobs.)

[Steve H Graham]

You speak with wisdom,Steve!!

The reason I really do wonder if some are machinists is due to the volume of incredibly basic questions that get asked there.

Sounds like you have seen some of my posts.

I like old machines, but I get tired of the propagandizing from the old Yankee Doodle laid-off union guys who invariably say all machines that aren't American are crap. When I was shopping for a mill, they kept telling me to just go out and buy one of the $1000 like-new Bridgeports people were always giving away. I don't know what world they live in, where such things exist.

I bought a used 12" Clausing lathe because I listened to them (and used a crooked machine dealer machinists recommended), and I got a worn-out beater that didn't do metric threading and had virtually no tooling. Lost money selling it. After that, I got mad and spent about $12K on a new Taiwan lathe with rests, a DRO, 7.5 horsepower, and a 2-1/4" spindle bore. I have never had a problem with it that I did not cause, parts are easily available, and it has a real D1-6 spindle and a coolant system. I also bought a Taiwan mill assembled in China, and it works flawlessly and is probably more rigid than a Bridgeport. It weighs more.

You should have seen the Kennedy-era American garbage that was available locally for the same money. Artificial reef material, at best.

I have a Rockwell 17-300 drill press which is ancient, and I rigged it with a bigger Ebay motor and a VFD. It's great. But then it's not a precision tool! If it were a mill, I would have thought twice.

[Frederick Skelly]

What is the point of this tale? I haven't the slightest idea!!! But some guys here seem to like my tool and wood stories,of which I have quite a few,woodworking being my whole life. And,I'm tired of leaving a space after a comma!

I wonder WHO is the snob being referred to? I don't think I have said anything untrue,or snobbish.

Loved the story George! Tell us more!
Fre

[george wilson]

Steve,don't feel bad. I have had a Grizzly 16 x 40" lathe that is still nearly like new since 1986. It has earned me much more than I paid for it(I think it was 3K at the time. A really cheap lathe for its size. But,it turns dead treue and faces dead flat. The latter is unusual. most lathes FACE about a thou and a half concave. That is beneficial for large pipe flange work,which I never do. I want it to face flat to put a new surface on a battered piece of 1/2" brass I might find at the junk yard. New brass is so expensive.

I got a job making a new brass box housing for an 18th. C. lock on an historic house(Gunston Hall in va.) They were all cast,of course,but this is my 2nd such job. I lay out the dimensions and notch the corners and file their surfaces to about 45º. Then,I fold up the corners and silver solder them with a skimpy amount of silver solder. NO RUNS WANTED!! After that,I can peen the corners if any gaps are open. I just left the multitude of tiny little dings on the surface,and polished the shallow box shape. The little dings gave a very authentic 18th. C. looking surface. I was shocked to find that to buy another square foot of the same 260 alloy brass was $100.00 ! So,I have always relied on the junk yard. The metal may not be pristine,but what is nice about ANY metal,is that there is always bright NEW metal just beneath that dinged surface. Often I don't really need things to be exactly a certain thickness in mechanical antique parts replacement like the brass and ivory bobbin below. Or the surveyor's 1802 compass(I DID use new brass on it,but it is never free of scratches and little dings anyway.

That is why I need my lathe to face flat,anyway.

So,as you can see,most of my work in metal is made from old junk!! The bobbins: One is my repro. The lady(with micrometer eyes) had to ask which was original. The surveyor's compass was made on a museum request for the now late David Brinkley,the famous newsman.

[Patrick Chase]

That is why I need my lathe to face flat,anyway.


Nice stories, thank you!

Out of curiosity, why would you prefer a lathe to a surface grinder for that sort of thing? Is it less work to bring the surface to final finish quality starting from a turned surface?

[george wilson]

Patrick,I have a tool and cutter grinder,but never have had a true surface grinder. I can grind surfaces about 4" x 12". The T&C grinder is primarily used to sharpen my end mills. Not the best surfaces result when I do grind surfaces with it. Probably needs higher class bearings in the motor. I slip stone the very cutting edges of end mills after they are sharpened. That is because a ground edge I can make(without very fine wheels) doesn't cut as nicely. All this is less than perfect also because I don't use coolant,spraying and splashing all over the place Too many things nearby I don't want to get the stuff on.



Besides,we're talking about grinding brass here. Brass can be ground,but I have no experience with it. Takes special wheels.

[Steve H Graham]

Yeah, I do pretty impressive work, too. I made a new pull knob for the microwave door.

[Larry Frank]

I get a get a good chuckle out of threads at times. When people try to make conclusions about a steel which is described as "Chrome Vanadium", what is really meant?

Personally, I have made steels with Chrome and Vanadium which have huge variations in those and other elements. You could have large variations in C, Mn, Si, V, Cr and a bunch of others.

My point is that you can not make generalizations about steel properties when you say it has some Cr and V in it. You need to know a lot more.

[David Ragan]

I'd like to help stop trolling ....but all my time is taken up by the Anti Engineer Bashing Committee.

What is this the AEBC?