Full size rip tpi?

[Michael J Evans]

Hi all,

Recently acquired a disston #7. It's 8 tpi and filed crosscut. I already have a full size d8 crosscut and a smaller panel d8 xcut, along with a atkins and a few others. The only rip saws I have now are a 16" miter converted tenon and a panel d8 converted rip(9 or 10tpi). I was thinking the full size 7 might be a good canidate to make a lower tpi rip out of. I found someone local to me who says they have the equipment to punch new teeth and will do it for a fair price.

My question is what is a good tpi for a full size rip saw? I don't have any projects for it yet and so far most of my work has been in softwoods, I want it to be general use if that makes sense. I just want it to process stock fast. The panel d8 I filed rip works good for tenon cheeks but anything larger and it seems hopeless. I did a little bit or research and maybe 5tpi would be good? Any input appreciated

Thanks,
Michael

[lowell holmes]

I have a rip saw at 10 tpi. It does a good job. You might check what Paul Sellers has to say about it. When I took classes at Homestead Heritage (30+ years ago) He was there. All of the saws were sharpened rip.

I have re-toothed saws my self by filing the tooth line smooth, taping a paper template to the side of the saw plate.
I then bought a red highlighter at the office supply store and marked the smooth tooth line. I then filed one or two strokes at each stroke.
The next step is to progressively deepen the teeth to final depth. I file each tooth 3 or 4 strokes and repeat the process until the teeth are shaped.
You have to set the rake of the teeth during this step.

Also, you can refile a cross cut saw to rip.

[Archie England]

Hi all,

My question is what is a good tpi for a full size rip saw? ... I did a little bit or research and maybe 5tpi would be good? Any input appreciated

Thanks,
Michael

Well, that's certainly a preference call.

I settled on 5TPI but still think 4 1/2 might be better for some of my bigger stock cuts. I'd love to find someone with even a 4 TPI and try it out. What I do know (about my preferences) is this, my 6 TPI rip saw does not get much use unless I'm sawing thin stock and for a more refined edge. But I typically clean all cut lines with hand planes, so that's become less of an issue.


Addendum: Check out the Stumpy Nubs video on handsaws (which he calls "panel" saws). He gives the math formula on how many teeth should be in the wood for both xcut and rip. It was very interesting and helped me to understand several aspects of TPI that I was ignorant of.

[Todd Stock]

5-1/2 ppi is pretty common on full sized Disston rips (both my thumb hole D8's are 5-1/2 point...nice cutting saws), and it feels comfortable to me in most woods, but I have a nice Sorby at 8 ppi that is a quick cutting saw in thinner stock. I'd want a coarse pitch for 6/4 or thicker, so stock thickness might be a consideration re: how you want it toothed (not that I spend much time in the guitar shop ripping 8/4 white oak!).

[Michael J Evans]

I have a rip saw at 10 tpi. It does a good job. You might check what Paul Sellers has to say about it. When I took classes at Homestead Heritage (30+ years ago) He was there. All of the saws were sharpened rip.

I have re-toothed saws my self by filing the tooth line smooth, taping a paper template to the side of the saw plate.
I then bought a red highlighter at the office supply store and marked the smooth tooth line. I then filed one or two strokes at each stroke.
The next step is to progressively deepen the teeth to final depth. I file each tooth 3 or 4 strokes and repeat the process until the teeth are shaped.
You have to set the rake of the teeth during this step.

Also, you can refile a cross cut saw to rip.

Hi lowell.
Thanks for the info. I've watched almost all Paul's videos and have converted my 2 saws that are rip from crosscut. Lately time has been an issue for me and the guy I found will punch new teeth for $12 which is tempting even if I had unlimited time.

[Pete Taran]

Michael,

I you ask me, 4.5 or 5 ppi is a good choice. I'd pick 4.5 if I was working primarily in softwoods, or 5 if soft and hardwoods were on the ripping menu. I filed and sold a 3 1/2 point rip last year and it was amazing. Every full stroke moved the saw about an inch in OAK. Surprised there weren't more of them sold. You have to know your way around saws to get the cut started though.

[steven c newman]

Had a 5-1/2 and a couple 6 ppi saws.. Finer toothed ones cut too slow for me.

[lowell holmes]

I have a 5-1/2 ppi rip saw. I seldom use it. I just prefer the finer tooth. If the finer tooth saw is sharp and properly set it does a good job.
If I was ripping a 2X12 I would use the 5 1/2. You can have both you know. Old handsaws are cheap, and if you know how to sharpen,
You can have both. I just like the feel of my 8 point saw.

[Michael J Evans]

Archie,todd,Pete
Thanks for the comments.

Let me ask you guy are there any real disadvantages to going lower tpi if the guy has the equip to do 4 or 4.5? I assume the cuts more ragged and may need cleaned up?

To be honest, if I have to rip a ton of stock I'll probably bust out the table saw and go that route, but it would be nice to have a nice rip saw for those cuts that are 1 off, where I don't wanna pull out the table saw and extension cords.
I've found with crosscuts it'a usually quicker to make those cut with a hand saw and more pleasant and would like to round out the stable.

I still have 4 or 5 more back

[Michael J Evans]

Don't know why it cut my message off but.

I still have 4 or 5 more handsaws waiting for me to do something with so I'm sure I'll end up with a something like 7 point rip. I just figured I already have a finer tooth rip and that a course rip would have me covered on both ends of the spectrum.

[Archie England]

I prefer my 3/4" band saw rip over my TS rip--every day! But, I'm moving away from power tools to almost exclusive use of hand tools. Having a quality rip saw is necessary, then. I'm far more proficient at filing cross cut than rip, though filing rip is so easy (that I somehow stink at doing it). IMO, it's the rake (aggressive vs passive) that makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE in the cut. Aggressive rakes start harder, grab more often, and can leave very proud exit wounds; while passive rake is much easier in all three categories--at the expense of speed. And, speed is the issue; that's why I'm looking at going lower than 5 TPI. For me, the higher TPI cut great--just slower. For one of cuts that may do, but for numerous cuts, it s*cks. Don't forget the 4x solution, too: green vs dry and hard woods vs soft woods. That could mean the need for four saws, one for each of the wood types. Well, that's certainly my justification for having a few too many.

One tip I picked up from a Mike Siemsen video: add fleam to the front end and/or back end of your rip saw for starting cuts. WOW! That was revelatory to me. I would love to hear from those who've done this and get some feedback.

Thanks

[Pete Taran]

Michael,

He has the equipment. I'm sure he uses the same rotary punch affair all saw doctors use. In a rough rip saw, bigger teeth are better in my opinion. The trick to a nice cutting ripsaw is to relax the rake from 0 to like 6-8 degrees. This makes it a LOT smoother cutting and easier to start. Zero rake is very aggressive, but again, you have to be a pro sawyer to appreciate it and drive it in the cut. To an untrained hand, it will constantly hang and perhaps kink the saw. Disston came to the same realization and put an 8 degree rake on all their rips saws early in the 20th century.

The issue with getting lower teeth punched is the coarser the tooth, the more metal that must be removed. Those retoothers aren't unlimited in their ability to remove waste, so when you go too coarse, sometimes it gets hung up and ruins the saw. I typically don't go below 4 1/2 ppi and then don't cut the whole tooth. It's just too hard to punch that big a piece of steel and have it work perfectly. I'd rather punch 2/3 of the tooth and file the rest in. The real bummer is that when you are cutting teeth that big, if you screw it up you are losing 1/2" of blade height with each failed attempt.

[Archie England]

Pete,

Thanks so much for addressing this topic.

On the subject of cutting teeth new, I've only done it from a blank plate once--all by hand without any stamping. Kind of a tough memory, though the saw worked mostly just fine. Lots of work for just filing by hand, and I had a tough time following my paper guide.

[Michael J Evans]

Don't forget the 4x solution, too: green vs dry and hard woods vs soft woods. That could mean the need for four saws, one for each of the wood types. Well, that's certainly my justification for having a few too many.

Thanks

I'm just beginning and it's already getting bad, just about everytime I've come across a older <1920s ish saw for under $10 I've picked it up. Panel and full size saws come up all the time, still having a hard time finding those old backsaws.

Still trying to figure out when I'm gonna get time to sharpen them all.

[Michael J Evans]

Thanks Pete,

That clears up a few things for me, and simultaneously makes me nervous trying out one of my older saws with the unknown service. May bring a older junker craftsman in for a test run.

[Archie England]

Thanks Pete, That ... makes me nervous trying out one of my older saws with the unknown service. May bring a older junker craftsman in for a test run.

Michael, the junker sacrifice is not a bad idea; but there are reputable sources for saw sharpening, such as http://www.rmsaws.com/p/about-us.html.

Gearing up to do it yourself is a little pricey because you must make or buy a reliable vise, various saw files (that's how I first met Pete Teran's web site), and (if your eyes are a tad older) a light with magnifier.

There's hours of great reading here on the forum from some superb saw sharpeners; just start searching.

In the end, I bought one of Marv Werner's saws freshly sharpened and have used it as a visible guide since then. As an educator, I consider such a purchase as the cost of learning (aka tuition). Though I can learn from reading, I also like to feel and see the end goal, as well.

I'm getting better (probably because I have too many saws to practice on) but still would not be comfortable sharpening other peoples saws. It's rather tedious.

[lowell holmes]

If you re-file the tooth line smooth and re-tooth, you can make the tooth spacing anything you want. I like having rip sharpened teeth at 8 and 10 tpi instead of only 5 1/2 .

The coarse saws cut fast, but rough. I have both and can get the cut I want. That is the advantage of filing junker saws. I have one junker that has a new handle and is re-filed.
It's not a junker any more.:)

[David Eisenhauer]

I started out as a bridge carpenter many years ago and often times we worked out in the middle of electricity-less nowhere. Yes we used generators, but also did a lot of hand sawing that brought me back to my ranch/farm handsawing roots. For what I call "carpentry" ripping work as opposed to "woodworking" ripping with a full sized handsaw, I would prefer a 5-1/2 ppi to be the finest cutting saw I had and would grab a 5 if available. I have never had the opportunity to try anything rougher cutting but have often wished to try out a 4 or 4-1/2. The initial start is a little trickier, but once your saw is on about it's second stroke, rougher is better.

[Michael J Evans]

Michael, the junker sacrifice is not a bad idea; but there are reputable sources for saw sharpening, such as http://www.rmsaws.com/p/about-us.html.

Gearing up to do it yourself is a little pricey because you must make or buy a reliable vise, various saw files (that's how I first met Pete Teran's web site), and (if your eyes are a tad older) a light with magnifier.



I have no problem sharpening it, it's just a matter of time issue lately. Been working 14+ hrs a day and with two little boys it leaves me less than an ideal amount of time. I figured if I had new teeth punched that would save me some time and I have files / vise to sharpen, and with a rip cut with fewer tpi it shouldn't take to long to sharpen.

[lowell holmes]

I have no problem sharpening it, it's just a matter of time issue lately. Been working 14+ hrs a day and with two little boys it leaves me less than an ideal amount of time. I figured if I had new teeth punched that would save me some time and I have files / vise to sharpen, and with a rip cut with fewer tpi it shouldn't take to long to sharpen.

I know you take care of the boys, there is always time for saws. Speaking from experience, the kids are with you for a season, but after the season, things change. Fortunately, I live 1/2 mile from three grand kids and 10 miles from two more.

[Michael J Evans]

On a somewhat separate note, is there a way to tell if a saw file is bad?
I bought 30-40 files at an estate sale and 10 - 15 of them are old USA Atkins,kerney, and I believe some disston saw files. Various sizes, I got them for $2 so no loss if they don't have any use. Just don't know how to tell if they have any life in them?

[James Waldron]

In keeping with the theory of different strokes for different folks, I have two main rip saws. I have a 4 ppi 26 inch hand saw for most of my rough stock, which I normally get in 8/4, that does really well. (As others have noted, it take some practice and care to start a cut.) Then I have a 20 inch 8 ppi panel saw I use for +/- 4/4 stock. Both have "minimal" rake at 4* and cut fast as a result.

When properly sharp, they are good in hard maple; as the cutters wear, the cut slows and announces the need for sharpening. In cherry or walnut or softwoods, they still cut pretty well well after hard maple starts talking back. These things are a bit relative. And 4* rake is a challenge too when starting a cut. Anyone who has limited sawing experience should probably stick to 8* or more of rake or plan to practice a LOT before working on expensive wood.

I have a variety of hand planes to finish rip cuts, so I don't worry too much about how smooth these saws cut. What I work at is assuring that they cut straight and square. Once a saw is set, sharpened and tuned, cutting straight and square is mostly sawyer technique.

At one point, I relied on a 6 ppi hand saw for 8/4 stock. Short rips were not a lot of fun. Long ones were exhausting. Resawing was painfully slow and unacceptable. Once I tried a friend's 4 ppi saw, I jumped to make the transition. It was a bit more difficult to start, but a bit of practice sorted that out fairly quickly. The 6 ppi saw quickly found a new home.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Not a file expert, but some things to look for:
-Are they in boxes, with paper or something between them, or are they loose and banging against each other?
-Are they rusted?
-When you look at them up close, are the teeth clean and even, or are they rough and uneven?
-And of course when you try them, you will figure out pretty quickly if they have any life left.

[steven c newman]

362905
Filed rip..7ppi
362906
What I use to hold a file..
362907
Usually pick one up at Menards..
362908
Have an older saw vise, seems to work...
362909
Test drive. After the second push-pull, it cuts very fast ( needed to stone the burrs, though)
362910
Maybe a little too fast? Note to shelf...use something other than a hand to hold the wood still while sawing....

[Archie England]

On a somewhat separate note, is there a way to tell if a saw file is bad?

When my file starts skating (slipping) or skidding over a tooth or when it no longer grabs or shows resistance--it's then that I conclude that particular corner is shot. I try to follow the rule of thumb of keeping only half the height in the gullet.

[lowell holmes]

I have an antique saw vise I never use. I made the vice featured here.


http://www.leevalley.com/us/newsletters/Woodworking/5/2/article2.htm

[Archie England]

Yikes, Steven. Glad it wasn't a power-file, the damage could have taken off the whole finger.

Sorry for your pain. This reality of accidental rakings across a freshly sharpened saw does hurt (and should be removed from the normal tests to determine tooth sharpness).

[Patrick Chase]

That clears up a few things for me, and simultaneously makes me nervous trying out one of my older saws with the unknown service. May bring a older junker craftsman in for a test run.

You could also send it to Pete (http://www.vintagesaws.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=23). He can't say that on SMC of course.

I have no affiliation with him and actually haven't sent any of my saws for sharpening as I'm teaching myself to file (and probably will be for a very very long time). I've seen saws that Pete either made (Independence Saw, a.k.a. the company that became Lie-Nielsen's saw business) or sharpened, though, and they were good.

Somebody linked rmsaws above, and Mark Harrell at Bad Axe (http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/bad-axe-restoration-services.php) does good work - I've bought a carcase new from him and thought it well tuned.

[steven c newman]

About the third or fourth time through the wood.....my "Saw Stop" finger got in the way of the moving saw....game over. The cut was just one swipe...barely see the scar, now.

[Michael J Evans]

Not a file expert, but some things to look for:
-Are they in boxes, with paper or something between them, or are they loose and banging against each other?
-Are they rusted?
-When you look at them up close, are the teeth clean and even, or are they rough and uneven?
-And of course when you try them, you will figure out pretty quickly if they have any life left.

No there we're / are in a plastic tray that was in a drawer. Some are slightly rusty others not so much. I need to closely inspect the teeth to see if any wear. I suspect the guy was either a old carpenter or neander, so the files are probably toast. all the saws for sale at the estate were very sharp and in good use able shape. The panel d8 I bought cuts like a dream ( my best cutting saw) and had a beautiful handle and I assume blued plate. I had an opportunity to buy a full carpenter's / joiners chest for $90 bucks and passed, still kicking myself over that one.

[Michael J Evans]

That's a nice one steven. I swear since beginning down the hand tool route, my hand's have been more mangled than ever. Luckily I've only managed to slice my fingers once with a saw.

I recently learned that the lands on a chisel are also very sharp, managed to slice the side of my guide finger pretty good.

[steven c newman]

Bad using a chisel, and don't realize you've cut a finger until you see the "DNA Stain" on the wood....BTDT, got the scar.

Never got into using a "thumbhole" rip saw.....had quite a few come through the shop, just never stayed. I also had a Keystone No. 6-1/2 "Challenger" @ 5-1/2 ppi.....kept the 6 and 7 ppi saws instead.

[Patrick Chase]

That's a nice one steven. I swear since beginning down the hand tool route, my hand's have been more mangled than ever. Luckily I've only managed to slice my fingers once with a saw.

I recently learned that the lands on a chisel are also very sharp, managed to slice the side of my guide finger pretty good.

It's standard practice to "detune" the lands up to within about an inch of the edge for that reason. I use emery paper with my finger as a backer, just because that's how I learned to detune ski tips/tails 25 years ago.

Hand-tool woodworking caused me to discover 3M VetBond for $5 a bottle on Amazon. IMO it works better on skin than standard CA glue (it's a different chemistry) but is a lot cheaper than "human-rated" DermaBond (a different chemistry still). DermaBond's one big advantage is that it dries to a gummier consistency than VetBond, which in turn drives gummier than standard CA resins. The resulting flexibility improves durability around joints. If you get a really deep cut near a joint it's worth blowing a $20 single-use applicator of the good stuff.

[Michael J Evans]

It's standard practice to "detune" the lands up to within about an inch of the edge for that reason. I use emery paper with my finger as a backer, just because that's how I learned to detune ski tips/tails 25 years ago.

Hand-tool woodworking caused me to discover 3M VetBond for $5 a bottle on Amazon. IMO it works better on skin than standard CA glue (it's a different chemistry) but is a lot cheaper than "human-rated" DermaBond (a different chemistry still). DermaBond's one big advantage is that it dries to a gummier consistency than VetBond, which in turn drives gummier than standard CA resins. The resulting flexibility improves durability around joints. If you get a really deep cut near a joint it's worth blowing a $20 single-use applicator of the good stuff.

my first thought was to wear a glove on the other hand. Thanks for the great tip.
I've also never tried superglue , a lot of people I know do, I've always just used tape.