Menards and Home Depot Lawsuit

[Rod Sheridan]

Apparently a class action suit is being brought against both companies for misleading consumers with regards to lumber dimensions.

The suit argues that the companies are short changing consumers by 23% because a 2 X 4 isn't 2 X 4 inches.

Have we really gone this silly in society?

http://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/news/woodworking-industry-news/home-depot-menards-under-fire-over-lumber-sizes?utm_source=Real%5FMagnet&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=rsheridan@telesat.com&utm_content=DAILY%20BRIEF&utm_campaign=Axed%20by%20judge%3A%20Lumber%20Liqui dators%20false%20advertising%20claims

Regards, Rod.

[Mike Kreinhop]

No sillier than trying to blame someone else for not realizing coffee is hot.

[Mike Null]

I'm 80 years old and can't remember a time when a 2x4 was anything but 3.5" wide.

[Scott Brader]

Unfortunately, we will continue to be bombarded with these frivolous lawsuits until we enact real Tort Reform. Also unfortunately, the people who need to do that are also a bunch of lawyers who have made far too much money through the years under the current system.

[Matt Day]

It's hard to roll my eyes enough to express how asinine this potential lawsuit is.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Didn't Lowe's get sued for this in California and I believe had to pay a lot.

[Justin Koenen]

I'm 82 and I remember a 2 x 4 being 1 5/8 x 3 5/8"..... 2 x 6 1 5/8 x 5 5/8 etc. anyone else? Justin Koenen

[Mike Null]

Justin
I believe you're right. I just measured one I bought 4 or 5 years ago and it's even smaller -- less than 3.5" x 1.5".

[Michael Weber]

My downstairs powder room is currently gutted so I measured the framing from 1929. 2x4 measure 1 5/8 by 3 9/16. The 2x6's in the plumbing wall are 1 5/8 x 5 9/16. I'm only 71 but swear I remember all the complaining about reduction in dimensions when I was a child. But the mind does funny things so maybe not.

[Clarence Martin]

I guess it depends on where you buy the lumber. When I bought 2x4 lumber about 15 years ago from the local Saw it was Air Dried , 2 inches thick x 4 inches wide. Planed and jointed .

[Justin Koenen]

Hey Michael, re: your phrase w/your post................. the second childhood (past 80) is really a trip! Spent 16 weeks at Ft. Smith Oct '54.... Justin Koenen

[Greg R Bradley]

Each dimension was reduced by roughly 1/4" during WW1 and another 1/4" during WW2. However, there is more to this as the nominal size is originally the rough sawn dimensions and they originally sawed it slightly larger than that so it would be the nominal size after drying.

A friends 1912 house was built with the standard rough sawn 2x4 lumber. Another friends 1929 house was also built with rough sawn 2x4 lumber but it is an extremely nice house so was probably built with the nicest lumber available at the time. I hope they wore gloves while building those houses.

[Mark Bolton]

I don't think there was ever any conscious reduction until now (big box retailers). Dimensional lumber of old was sawn and air dried for a period so you bought 2x4 that was sawn at 2" x 4" and then dried to 1 5/8-1 3/4 x 3 5/8-3 3/4 unsurfaced. We do this currently on our sawmill with rough cut lumber. Today we buy the same material (except mostly all softwood with a higher shrinkage) but it is kiln dried or heat treated _and_ dimensioned. No different than buying lumber S2S SLR1E your paying for the cost of the rough (RGH) material. You pay for all the material that is lost in drying and lost in surfacing.

The home centers are most definitely pushing the limits on dimensional lumber. We have seen lumber on jobs where 2x8's are now at 7" not 7 1/2" or 7 3/8", or even 7 1/4". We have been watching the shrink for 20 years. We don't buy from the home centers and most of our lumber is still in the 3/8"-1/2" range.

It makes for a major chore when your doing a remodel or coming in behind someone else and their 2x's are off by 1/4" from what your installing.

The home centers are trying to wring every last tenth of a cent out of their products so in my opinion if there is any validity to them shrinking the size of their material by even 1/16th I'm all for holding their feet to the fire. They have destroyed the building industry, light fixtures, appliances, tools, all in a never ending drive for profit.

[Walter Plummer]

I started in construction in the mid 70's and I think 2x6,2x8 etc were 5 1/2", 7 1/2" not 5 1/4", 7 1/4" but they were definitely only 1 1/2" thick. It has been a long time even though it seems like last week.

[George Bokros]

My son and I had to sister one of the floor joists in his house which was built in the late 50's. We has to put shims under where the joist rested on the plate and the center block wall. So i know first hand dimensional lumber is now not the same dimension as it was in the 50's.

[John K Jordan]

Didn't Lowe's get sued for this in California and I believe had to pay a lot.

Lowes settled for 1.5 million or so in 2014. http://cdnassets.hw.net/8f/fa/17292adc448980b6eab02fa96fcb/lowes-2x4-final-judgement.pdf

Some lawyer said, hey, let's sue HD now! Let's make some money!

JKJ

[Mark Bolton]

You may have to shim from lumber bought a year ago and lumber purchased today. Its not nasa level tolerances. Like I say, we have come in on Reno's in homes less than a year old and dimensional lumber doesn't match up. Any framing done in the 50's has been bone dry (and if its in an attic more than bone dry) for 67 years at this point. Its going to be smaller, and drier, period. Framing lumber bought today is likely going to be 19%. 67 year old lumber, provided there isn't a roof leak or some other issue, is likely going to be close to single digits.

[Greg R Bradley]

Lowes settled for 1.5 million or so in 2014. http://cdnassets.hw.net/8f/fa/17292adc448980b6eab02fa96fcb/lowes-2x4-final-judgement.pdf

Some lawyer said, hey, let's sue HD now! Let's make some money!

JKJ
First thing we do is kill all the lawyers. The bonus is that takes care of almost all the politicians too.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Coming next, suing hard drive manufacturers because a 1TB drive does not have 1TB usable after it is formatted, and everyone because 1K = 1024 rather than 1000, except when it does.

And while we are at it, can we roll-back some of the new meanings for words? I mean really, I want to have a "gay old time" with my friends at a party. I want to fetch a bundle of sticks for burning without offending anyone. I also want people start using "to be" again; your car needs to be cleaned, it does not "need cleaned".

Feeling like a grumpy old fart. Speaking of farts, the word "rap" was used to mean fart many years ago and it was used to refer to that type of music as a joke <sigh>.

[glenn bradley]

Must . . . resist urge . . . to talk about . . . lawsuits :mad:.

How about the shocking fact that there's sugar in candy (http://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/2017/05/25/jelly-belly-sued-by-woman-claiming-didnt-know-jelly-beans-contain-sugar.html)!?! What! Sugar in candy? Unheard of.

Rule one - Any lawyer, court, judge or other legal entity that would entertain such a lawsuit shall be summarily shot.
Rule two - The person trying to bring the suit shall be made to watch and then be summarily shot.

[John K Jordan]

I'm 82 and I remember a 2 x 4 being 1 5/8 x 3 5/8"..... 2 x 6 1 5/8 x 5 5/8 etc. anyone else? Justin Koenen

I remember that.

Also, the last time I was in Moctezuma in the central highlands of Mexico (fixing up a children's camp) we went to "town" to buy some 2x4s. (5 hr trip) The only lumber available was rough sawn, 2"x4", warped, and expensive.

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

..the word "rap" was used to mean ...

For some reason they always leave off the "c" that's supposed to be on the front of that word.

JKJ

[Wade Lippman]

Lowes settled for 1.5 million or so in 2014. http://cdnassets.hw.net/8f/fa/17292adc448980b6eab02fa96fcb/lowes-2x4-final-judgement.pdf

Some lawyer said, hey, let's sue HD now! Let's make some money!

JKJ

I read the link as well as I could before the pain in my head got too intense. I think that is different. It allowes Lowes to sell a nominal 2x4 that is actually 1.5x3.5. Apparently they were using misleading labels that caused confusion. Or something like that.

[Mike Cutler]

I'm 82 and I remember a 2 x 4 being 1 5/8 x 3 5/8"..... 2 x 6 1 5/8 x 5 5/8 etc. anyone else? Justin Koenen

I believe, IIRC, that the nominal dimension was changed in the mid to late 60's, from those dimensions, to the current dimensions.

[Mike Cutler]

Must . . . resist urge . . . to talk about . . . lawsuits :mad:.

How about the shocking fact that there's sugar in candy (http://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/2017/05/25/jelly-belly-sued-by-woman-claiming-didnt-know-jelly-beans-contain-sugar.html)!?! What! Sugar in candy? Unheard of.

Rule one - Any lawyer, court, judge or other legal entity that would entertain such a lawsuit shall be summarily shot.
Rule two - The person trying to bring the suit shall be made to watch and then be summarily shot.


Hmmm,,,, you may have something here Glenn.
You might be able to sue for there not being sugar in candy. HFCS( High Fructose Corn Syrup) is a type of sugar, but it isn't cane sugar. Seems misleading to me.
I say go for it. ;)

[Gary Muto]

First thing we do is kill all the lawyers. The bonus is that takes care of almost all the politicians too.

Then we convert to the metric system. That will keep everyone else confused for a while.:D

[Bill McNiel]

When I started framing in 1968 2x4s were 1 5/8" x 3 5/8". All other dimensional framing lumber was similarly sized ie. a 2x10 was 1 5/8" x 9 5/8". Prior to that lumber was sized at 1 3/4" x 3 3/4", I am unsure when this change occurred. I'm am not sure exactly when lumber was further downsized to the current 1 1/2" x 3 1/2" but I believe it was in the early 70s.

Far more significant, in my mind, is the continuing "down grading" of framing material allowing more and more knots per foot and the introduction of "White Wood" as opposed to true Douglas Fir.

[Joe Tilson]

When our house was built in 1963, the lumber came straight from the mill just down the road. It is true dimensional 2 x 4, 2 x 6, etc. etc. Finished lumber has always been smaller, as you well know. After we plane it down, it has to be smaller or we wouldn't have anything to do. We would just slap it together and say, "Hey that looks good".;)

[Rick Potter]

Gotta go to Lowes and get me some of those special, primo, 'center cut' 2X4's before they are all gone.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Every local saw mill / planer mill had their own dimensions for lumber, which wasn't a problem till we started importing lumber from other sections of the country.The lumber industry established a set of standards for all lumber so it could come from multiple sources and be the same size, called nominal sizing. I'm old enough to remember house construction sites had a DeWalt RAS with long benches on each side to cut floor joists, studs, ceiling joists and rafters to length. One of my suppliers used to cut joist to exact length and square on both ends. A 16' 2 X10 was exactly 16' long, and cut square on both ends. But go into home centers where the rigid conduit is and measure a 10' stick. It will measure ten foot, including coupling. This means to run 100', you would have to buy eleven sticks, as each piece is about an inch short of being ten feet.

[Ronald Blue]

+ One one what Bruce says. There is more than that involved as well in my experience. I have done enough remodeling in old houses to know that the lumber was in consistent in sizes. It was common to find 2 X 4's that were over 2" thick and over 4" on depth. This wasn't so much a problem with lathe and plaster construction because a skilled plasterer (if that's a word) could make it look great. However when you rip that out in a remodeling project and then try to go back with sheet rock it required shimming and much trial and error to get it to work out. So creating a standard to follow was a win for everyone in my opinion. It was common to hear it said when I was younger that "they don't build them like they used to". My thought when it comes to this part of it is THANK GOD. Because were they a pain from the inconsistent lumber sizes and they generally weren't square either. Maybe this isn't the case everywhere but it certainly was in this geographical region. I am adding a link from an architect site that gives the standards for soft wood lumber. These lawsuits are nothing more than lawyers trying to fill their pockets. I have a hard time seeing where anyone was harmed here.

archtoolbox.com/materials-systems/wood-plastic-composites/dimensional-lumber-sizes-nominal-vs-actual.html

[Brian Elfert]

My father and I do volunteer construction work at a Boy Scout camp. The camp was originally built in 1946 from lumber cut on-site. The oldest 2x4s are rough cut and measure a true 2"x4". At some point the 2x4s went to 1-3/4" and finally to 1-1/2". It makes it interesting to repair the buildings as you never know what dimensions you might find. Luckily they have saved wood from buildings repaired or demolished over the years so you can often find wood to make repairs.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Have we really gone this silly in society?Yes/no/maybe....

Quite often I've thought that if everyone in the construction trades & woodworkers would stand together we could force plywood manufacturers to product honest - 3/4", 1/2", 1/4" and 1/8" materials.

Other than greed, I can't see any reason why they undersize plywood.

Dimensional lumber, ok, I can see a little bit of that, but, as pointed out above - give them a 1/4" and they'll take a mile.
When we renovate a 1950's or 1960's house and have to install new studs, it's always a hassle to shim them to the right size before putting the drywall on.

[Kevin Barnett]

All of this doesn't matter. A 2"x4" CAN be 1.5"x3.5". Now a 2.0"x4.0" is a different matter. Significant digits are pretty important.

That's why you are allowed 3.4 ounce liquid bottles on a plane. The rule is 3 ounces. That means anything 3.49999 ounces or less. Sometimes they say "3.4 ounces". Then you're only allowed 3.4499 ounces.

[Jim Koepke]

Quite often I've thought that if everyone in the construction trades & woodworkers would stand together we could force plywood manufacturers to product honest - 3/4", 1/2", 1/4" and 1/8" materials.

I think that ship has sailed already. My understanding is plywood is now in metric sizes with labels in inches. 1/4" is 6mm, 1/2" is 12mm, 3/4" is 18mm.

jtk

[Brian Tymchak]

I think that ship has sailed already. My understanding is plywood is now in metric sizes with labels in inches. 1/4" is 6mm, 1/2" is 12mm, 3/4" is 18mm.

jtk

I have hope. (Guess I'm being an optimist today..:)) I noticed that the last PureBond plywood I bought at Home Depot (..yes.. Home Depot) was a true 3/4". Hopefully that is not an aberration.

[Rod Sheridan]

I have hope. (Guess I'm being an optimist today..:)) I noticed that the last PureBond plywood I bought at Home Depot (..yes.. Home Depot) was a true 3/4". Hopefully that is not an aberration.

I believe it was an aberration Brian.

Didn't North American plywood standards go metric in the 70's?

regards, Rod.

[Jim Koepke]

I have hope. (Guess I'm being an optimist today..:)) I noticed that the last PureBond plywood I bought at Home Depot (..yes.. Home Depot) was a true 3/4". Hopefully that is not an aberration.

Maybe they ordered it as 19mm, that is almost exactly 3/4" (0.748"). It is a common size for lug nuts on automobiles internationally.

jtk

[Dave Sabo]

The Menards lawsuit has been dismissed because it was found no "reasonable" person would conclude the were buying a board that measured exactly 2" by 4" and that the descriptions didn't actually use inch ( " ) marks in the description.

So, in fact, they weren't actually advertising a 2 inch by 4 inch board for sale.

Home Depot suit is still pending.

[glenn bradley]

America has 5% of the world’s population. We have something like 85% of the lawyers. The rest of the world can’t believe the things we allow to tie up the court's time.

[Leo Graywacz]

My house was built in 1891. I have 2x4s. Most of them are pretty dry, 2" thick and about 3 7/8" wide.

The lawyers are really the bane of the system. Going after this is ridiculous. Winning the case is something I can't even say.

[Curt Harms]

Must . . . resist urge . . . to talk about . . . lawsuits :mad:.

How about the shocking fact that there's sugar in candy (http://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/2017/05/25/jelly-belly-sued-by-woman-claiming-didnt-know-jelly-beans-contain-sugar.html)!?! What! Sugar in candy? Unheard of.

Rule one - Any lawyer, court, judge or other legal entity that would entertain such a lawsuit shall be summarily shot.
Rule two - The person trying to bring the suit shall be made to watch and then be summarily shot.

Nothing that dramatic, just make it loser pays costs. The risk with that is that the 'little guy' could never go after the guy with deep pockets but there should be some risk in bringing frivolous law suits.

[Brian Henderson]

Nothing that dramatic, just make it loser pays costs. The risk with that is that the 'little guy' could never go after the guy with deep pockets but there should be some risk in bringing frivolous law suits.

And the risk ought to be for the lawyers too. As it stands right now, they have no issues pushing as many frivolous lawsuits as they want, unless they really make the judge mad. I'd like to see them charged, personally, out-of-pocket, $100k per frivolous lawsuit dismissed by the court. That would stop them from chasing ambulances so closely.

[Chuck Ellis]

I think that ship has sailed already. My understanding is plywood is now in metric sizes with labels in inches. 1/4" is 6mm, 1/2" is 12mm, 3/4" is 18mm.

jtk

Before I retired I worked for an export packing company. Most of our boxes were constructed with 1/2" plywood sheathing. It became less costly to import plywood from Brazil than driving around the block to a Georgia Pacific warehouse ... we usually imported 10-12 20' containers per shipment. We got better plywood with fewer voids and for less money.... it was all in metric sizes... including the length and width.

[Andy Pogue]

Now if we could only do something about that half-pound pre-cooked hamburger....

[Curt Harms]

And the risk ought to be for the lawyers too. As it stands right now, they have no issues pushing as many frivolous lawsuits as they want, unless they really make the judge mad. I'd like to see them charged, personally, out-of-pocket, $100k per frivolous lawsuit dismissed by the court. That would stop them from chasing ambulances so closely.

It's a balancing act. We don't want to make justice seem like it's only for the well-to-do but yeah, right now certain classes of lawsuits seem like low risk potentially high reward.

[Brian Henderson]

It's a balancing act. We don't want to make justice seem like it's only for the well-to-do but yeah, right now certain classes of lawsuits seem like low risk potentially high reward.

Unfortunately, there is very little accountability today. Sure, on very rare occasion, you get someone who has gone so far over the line that you can't see the line from here that gets disbarred, but that is extremely rare. There's a reason why the U.S., with 5% of the world's population, has 85% of the world's lawyers.

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes/no/maybe....

Quite often I've thought that if everyone in the construction trades & woodworkers would stand together we could force plywood manufacturers to product honest - 3/4", 1/2", 1/4" and 1/8" materials.

Other than greed, I can't see any reason why they undersize plywood.

Dimensional lumber, ok, I can see a little bit of that, but, as pointed out above - give them a 1/4" and they'll take a mile.
When we renovate a 1950's or 1960's house and have to install new studs, it's always a hassle to shim them to the right size before putting the drywall on.

Hi Rich, the issue is that plywood has been metric in North America for thickness since the 1970's, so it doesn't measure anything standard in the Imperial system.........Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I just read that a Federal judge has struck down the lawsuit against Menards.............Rod.

[Dave Sabo]

Hi, I just read that a Federal judge has struck down the lawsuit against Menards.............Rod.


Hey Rod, did you just get around to reading post # 39 from last week ?

[Roger Feeley]

I grew up in a house in Topeka, KS that was built in 1920. My dad told me that the studs were actually 2"x4" and not some nominal size.

I live in a house built in 1860 (ok, I'm in the in-law quarters next door). I will have to over and measure some stuff in the basement and attic sometime.