Commissioning a new Felder machine

[John Adank]

I'm just wondering if anyone here took delivery of a new Felder machine and paid to have Felder commission/calibrate it upon delivery? I know they charge for this service now and I'm just wondering if it's worth the money. I was told by the sales department that machines are calibrated before delivery but I wonder to what extent not to mention the moving around of the crate during shipment.
thanks,
john

[Chris Parks]

You have just spent how much on a machine? Why would you not get them to do it, I can't think of a single reason. They deliver, any damage is their issue, any warranty aspects that arise are witnessed by them, any installation problems are addressed by them etc.

[John Lankers]

That depends on the machine, they are in fact calibrated and tested at the factory but the larger machines need to be partially disassembled for transport and run the risk of losing their settings or alignment and it can be quite difficult and complex for a novice to set them up properly. IME it pays well to watch the mechanic over the shoulder to learn how to really fine tune the machine after he has left since he only adjusts the machine to factory tolerances which are close but not close enough for some of us more 'anal' woodworkers.
I had my KF700S and the AD741 commissioned after delivery. I'm glad I did, I learned a lot just watching him.
Also, David Best's "Unofficial Survival Guide" is very well written and provides much more information than any manual (Google).

[david coelho]

I took delivery of several machines, CF 741 S combination machine, FB 710 bandsaw, FD 21 boring machine, and RL 160 dust collector. I opted for Felder installation, and I was VERY happy I did so. There were missing parts that only a trained expert would have noticed, there was additional calibration that brought the machines into very tight tolerances that only a trained expert would be capable of doing, and I got some training on use of the machines that was extremely helpful..stuff that would have been very hard to figure out and much less efficient of my time without the training. I will say also that the caliber of Felder installers that showed up was outstanding, one of the guys came from the Austrian factory, really knew his stuff.

[John Adank]

Thank you for your responses. My salesmen is somewhat new so I didn't put a lot of stock in him telling me the machines are ready to go. Any idea what you guys paid to have them commissioned? I'm looking at an AD-741 and a K700P. Felder did say that they could notify me when they're in my general part of the country to possibly defray some of the cost but then the salesman also told me they charge by the hour. I'm still waiting to hear back from him as to what it would cost. I think it would be a good learning experience to see how they make some of the adjustments.

I've tried to get a copy of manual by David Best but it doesn't appear to be available anymore. I've emailed several times but never received an answer. The website is still up but I can't order it. All he has for sale on that site is a poster of the front cover of the manual.

[Mike Kreinhop]

I've tried to get a copy of manual by David Best but it doesn't appear to be available anymore. I've emailed several times but never received an answer. The website is still up but I can't order it. All he has for sale on that site is a poster of the front cover of the manual.

Does this link from the David Best website help?

http://davidpbest.com/VA/StonehorseShop/K975_Install/Felder_Commissioning/1-0%20Intro.htm

I don't have a Felder, but am going through a similar process for my SCM Holzkraft SC2 Classic (same as the Minimax SC2 Classic). I'm setting up a shop in my basement, and the only access is by a wooden staircase with two 90-degree turns. When I bought the saw, I had it disassembled before delivery to my garage because my shop is not ready to receive it. The weight of the saw was not the problem, it was the size. I had everything removed except the cast iron table and the huge concrete counterweight in the body of the saw. This reduced the weight somewhat, but made it small enough to fit down the stairs and through the two basement doors.

The cost to reassemble and commission the saw will be €200 (about $225) and will be performed by a factory-trained technician. If the regional SCM technician is in the area when I'm ready for the commissioning, he will perform the commissioning and the factory-trained technician will assist. I'll pay the same price either way.

[James Zhu]

Thank you for your responses. My salesmen is somewhat new so I didn't put a lot of stock in him telling me the machines are ready to go. Any idea what you guys paid to have them commissioned? I'm looking at an AD-741 and a K700P. Felder did say that they could notify me when they're in my general part of the country to possibly defray some of the cost but then the salesman also told me they charge by the hour. I'm still waiting to hear back from him as to what it would cost. I think it would be a good learning experience to see how they make some of the adjustments.

I've tried to get a copy of manual by David Best but it doesn't appear to be available anymore. I've emailed several times but never received an answer. The website is still up but I can't order it. All he has for sale on that site is a poster of the front cover of the manual.

The price for the commissioning is really based on where you live. I am in Canada, one hour driving from Felder Mississsauga office. Felder tech rented a truck, delivered the KF700sp to my address, I paid CAD$ 500 for the commissioning service plus the $300 local delivery cost.

If your K700P has a sliding table 9 foot or longer, the sliding table comes with a separate package, it needs to be installed on the machine and calibrated after the delivery, not a trivial task for a novice who never uses slider. Later, I did re-calibrated the sliding table by myself, cause it was still higher than the cast iron table than what I like.

It is good to have your machine commissioned by Felder tech, so any missing or damaging problem can be sorted out without any delay, and you learn how to adjust the machine.

David Best's Survival Guide is not published anymore. But if you have any question, just post in the Felder Owner Group, you will get prompt response from awesome and knowledgeable guys there.

James

[Erik Loza]

OP, I noticed that you're in WI. You might reach out to Mac Campshure of Airtight Clamps...

http://macsblogboard.blogspot.com/

Mac is an excellent technician and has been working with Felder machines FOREVER. Best of luck with it.

Erik

[John Adank]

Is the Feldsr Owners Group still active? I couldn't find it when I looked last year nobody really knew what happened to it

[John Adank]

Thanks a lot Eric, I'll try and contact him. Sure glad I updated the state I live in on my profile this morning

[James Zhu]

Is the Feldsr Owners Group still active? I couldn't find it when I looked last year nobody really knew what happened to it

You might look at the wrong group. It is active. You can email to Brian Lamb (blamb11@cox.net) who is the admin of the group, he will add you to the group.

James

[John Adank]

Thank you James

[Rick Potter]

When I bought my KF700 saw/shaper, I paid to have the guy set it up. He spent at least half a day, getting everything right. Expensive, but to me it was worth it.

[Jim Becker]

This kind of service, while expensive, can ultimately "cost less" since it insures that everything is spot on from the start. As already mentioned, the nature of delivering large machines necessitates "some assembly required" and many folks are not up to the job of "dialing in" a complex and unfamiliar machine, at least on the first try. It's a no-brainer decision for anyone doing commercial work, for sure, IMHO, and a good idea for the hobbyist if the funds are available. I know it took me awhile to get my outrigger alignment setup.

[Chris Fournier]

I do not have a Felder, I chose instead a Minimax CU 410 Elite S. I am a handy guy who has been around equipment for a long time, wood and metal working. I was so impressed with the design of my machine. You can adjust every function and it is intuitive when you look at the build. The machine was also very close to accurate off the truck and out of the crates. If you are very new to machinery then perhaps you should pay for a set up. If you have some experience and are into doing things yourself then save the money and do it yourself. It ain't very complicated and there are great resources out there.

People here are telling you that a premium piece of equipment needs to be set up by an expensive technician visit. Hmmmm.

[Brian Lamb]

I sent you an invite to join the Felder group. I purchased my Felder machines in 2001 and paid for the commissioning and it was worth it. I'm a retired machinist and since then I have aligned my own machines and quite a few other Fogger's machines and while it can be done, it's not a trivial undertaking, especially on the longer sliders.... it's like trying to force a wet piece of spahgetti noodle into a straight line.

While the factory commissioning may not get the machine as "perfect" as you would like, it will teach you enough to have an inkling of what is required in case you should ever want to take on the project, or fine tune the machine even better.

I have seen quite a few purchasers all bent out of shape about how their machine isn't perfect upon delivery, after all, they paid all this money for it, it should be spot on. They fail to realize that the machine may very well have been perfect at the factory, but it is then crated and fork lifted into a container, driven overland to a seaport, craned onto a ship, craned off a ship, goes through customs, delivered to Felder USA, then trucked/freighted all over the county prior to final delivery to the customer. Any and everyone of those hand offs is a prime opportunity to be jostled or bumped out of alignment. Some machines land at the owner in great shape, some not so much. Having Felder come in and commission will get the machine within Felder's tolerance, and they will spot any missing or defective parts and it's just a portion of the cost of stepping up to this sort of machinery.

[david coelho]

Brian, can you send me an invite too PLEASE :)

P.S. You may recall I bought a bunch of your products a while back, fantastic stuff !!!

[Brian Lamb]

Invite sent and the url of the group is:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/felder-woodworking/info

[John Adank]

Any idea what some people have paid for the service? I know it kind of depends on where you live but I was hoping to get a rough idea of what I can expect to pay for this service. I do believe the sliding table on the saw ships with it attached since it's only 98" long.

[David Kumm]

John, I'd try to talk to the guy who is actually coming out to work on the machine. I've heard of great and not so great guys. While not rocket science, it does go a lot faster if you have some experience. Ask what tolerance he will set the slider too and if he will need to check the cast iron table as well. I use dial indicators and a Starrett Master Machinist level when I do mine and it can take a few hours over a few days. Mac is better at it than I am and I'd take him over most techs as he is pretty anal. I would not expect it to cost less than $500 and get any degree of precision. Easy to burn up more money than that to get everything within a few thou. Dave

[James Zhu]

Felder's tolerance for the sliding table height in related to cast iron table top is 0.012". They will not adjust the sliding table better that tolerance.

I have 9 foot sliding table, Felder tech installed and calibrated the sliding table using a Lee Valley 50" aluminum straightedge http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=50074&cat=1,240,45313,50074 and feeler gauge set http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=32527&cat=1,43513,51657,32527.

The tech spent 4 hours in my garage. A few days later, I used the 3 dial indicators along the edge of cast iron table and found it was more than 0.012" at some spots, some were 0.022". David Best sent me the instruction about how to adjust the sliding table, it took me a weekend, 22 hours to get it to 0.007" / 0.008" inch.

[Martin Wasner]

Just pay for the setup, its money well spent. When I bought my panel saw, the tech took it from the crate to bolted to the floor and cutting in a day. It would've taken me a lot longer, and I would've wasted far in unproductive time than $1500 it cost me to have him hammer it out.


OP, I noticed that you're in WI. You might reach out to Mac Campshure of Airtight Clamps...

http://macsblogboard.blogspot.com/

Mac is an excellent technician and has been working with Felder machines FOREVER. Best of luck with it.

Erik

He's three hours away from me, but I'm filling that name away. I just agreed to buy a Felder planer.

[Chris Parks]

Invite sent and the url of the group is:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/felder-woodworking/info

Brian, I looked at jping but apparently I have to supply a mobile phone number and I don't have one. Is there any way around this?

[Brian Lamb]

I don't know what Yahoo's terms are any more.... but I know I didn't give them my cell (only phone number I have anymore) for years until recently, see if you can just "skip this step" when you are joining.

[mark mcfarlane]

I'd gladly pay $250 or $500. SCM recently quoted "Standard SCM install would run $2,500 for something like that", to setup a CU300 and MM16. I thought this was absurd, I guess I have to pay for the air ticket from Italy and another $1,000 for the setup.

[Darcy Warner]

Not a felder tech, but my minimum to set up a machine I deliver is 500 bucks an I require the electrical and DC be run and ready.

[Erik Loza]

When I worked for Felder (2003-2004), I believe it was a flat rate of $450 to commission a machine. Can you imagine that? Even then, I remember the Austrians moaning about how much they lost on each service trip.

Erik

[Jeff Ramsey]

OP, I noticed that you're in WI. You might reach out to Mac Campshure of Airtight Clamps...

http://macsblogboard.blogspot.com/

Mac is an excellent technician and has been working with Felder machines FOREVER. Best of luck with it.

Erik

Erik, do you know of a similar excellent technician near Philadelphia?

[Erik Loza]

Erik, do you know of a similar excellent technician near Philadelphia?

Unfortunately, Jeff, I don't :(

Erik

[Jim Becker]

Unfortunately, Jeff, I don't :(

Erik
Nor do I, Jeff.

[John Adank]

I could be wrong but it sounded like years ago the commissioning was built into the price and part of the purchase. I think my salesman said they charge by the hour now. That could be an exspensive trip from out east to the midwest. I'm guessing $1,000-$1500 for the service. Still haven't heard back form the sales dept. as to some more specific numbers. I'm hoping someone else in my neck of the woods needs this service also to help defray some of the cost. It's taken me several years to save up enough for this equipment so even another $1500 which doesn't sound like much when you spent almost $20,000 still hurts a little in the pocket book for a hobbyist like myself. I cleaned a lot of windows at my second job to save up for these machines. I would gladly pay 2003-2004 rates today.

[Martin Wasner]

I could be wrong but it sounded like years ago the commissioning was built into the price and part of the purchase. I think my salesman said they charge by the hour now. That could be an exspensive trip from out east to the midwest. I'm guessing $1,000-$1500 for the service. Still haven't heard back form the sales dept. as to some more specific numbers. I'm hoping someone else in my neck of the woods needs this service also to help defray some of the cost. It's taken me several years to save up enough for this equipment so even another $1500 which doesn't sound like much when you spent almost $20,000 still hurts a little in the pocket book for a hobbyist like myself. I cleaned a lot of windows at my second job to save up for these machines. I would gladly pay 2003-2004 rates today.

You're around Madison? Call John G. Weber and ask somebody there who a good tech in Wisconsin is.

[John Adank]

I'm two hours away. Is John Weber the name of a company or a person?
thanks

[Martin Wasner]

Company

http://www.johngweber.com

[James Zhu]

I could be wrong but it sounded like years ago the commissioning was built into the price and part of the purchase. I think my salesman said they charge by the hour now. That could be an exspensive trip from out east to the midwest. I'm guessing $1,000-$1500 for the service. Still haven't heard back form the sales dept. as to some more specific numbers. I'm hoping someone else in my neck of the woods needs this service also to help defray some of the cost. It's taken me several years to save up enough for this equipment so even another $1500 which doesn't sound like much when you spent almost $20,000 still hurts a little in the pocket book for a hobbyist like myself. I cleaned a lot of windows at my second job to save up for these machines. I would gladly pay 2003-2004 rates today.

You can join the Felder Owner Group, ask if anyone near you is willing to commission the saw for some fee.

Another option is DIY. You only need a straightedge, a feeler gauge, OneWay Multi-Gauge and 4x8 (5/8" or 3/4") particle board to commission the saw. Email David Best, I am sure he will send the detailed instruction to you.

[John Adank]

I finally heard back from Felder today on the charges to commission the AD-741 jointer planer and K700P sliding table saw. Looks like it will come to $1790 for both machines. They do not do "when in the area visits" any longer. Each trip is for the individual customer. They said they already discounted me $300 for having multiple machines. Too bad they can't do when in the area visits anymore. I think that would be a good gesture from a customer service standpoint. I'd be more inclined to have them come and check things out every year or two if they still offered that service.

[David T gray]

I finally heard back from Felder today on the charges to commission the AD-741 jointer planer and K700P sliding table saw. Looks like it will come to $1790 for both machines. They do not do "when in the area visits" any longer. Each trip is for the individual customer. They said they already discounted me $300 for having multiple machines. Too bad they can't do when in the area visits anymore. I think that would be a good gesture from a customer service standpoint. I'd be more inclined to have them come and check things out every year or two if they still offered that service.

if u wait till end of year there sales people will be desperate and might throw it in for free when i was shopping they were going to but i went with minimax.

[James Zhu]

I finally heard back from Felder today on the charges to commission the AD-741 jointer planer and K700P sliding table saw. Looks like it will come to $1790 for both machines. They do not do "when in the area visits" any longer. Each trip is for the individual customer. They said they already discounted me $300 for having multiple machines. Too bad they can't do when in the area visits anymore. I think that would be a good gesture from a customer service standpoint. I'd be more inclined to have them come and check things out every year or two if they still offered that service.

For that price, I would pay someone who is able to commission the machines and close to where you live, it is not trivial, but not rocket science either. Only a few basic precision tools needed, once you learn the techniques, you only need patience to do it, and you can calibrate the machines better than Felder tech.

Join the Yahoo Felder Group and ask.

[Chris Parks]

I'd go back to them and say no install, no deal.

[David Kumm]

Spend for a few good indicators and levels and another day or two adjusting it yourself. It is like going to school and you will learn more about the machine- good and bad- than you will expect and the knowledge will serve you well for as long as you use it. Dave

[Erik Loza]

...Looks like it will come to $1790 for both machines... That's actually a fair price. Doesn't matter if it's a $3K jointer/planer or a $100K CNC machine. That's what it costs to fly a tech somewhere, put him up, car rental, etc. Even at that price, I doubt they make any money. Service is almost always a loss for companies in this industry, which is why so many are reluctant to quote it/offer it/etc.


I'd go back to them and say no install, no deal. With all due respect, that doesn't work here in the states. It's not a big deal in places like Europe or the UK, where the dealership and transportation infrastructure is densely packed but here in the US, where there might only be 2-3 actual brick-and-mortar dealerships for this or that brand, it's logistically impossible to eat the cost install and commissioning on anything but huge CNC-type deals. Let me put it this way: When I worked for Felder (back when commissioning cost $450 flat rate, LOL), even then, if a customer said, "Comp me or else", I'd say thanks, then get up and walk away from the table. Because by the time you took that out of your margin and factored in the "deal price", which there always is, there is no money left for you as the sales rep.


Spend for a few good indicators and levels and another day or two adjusting it yourself. It is like going to school and you will learn more about the machine- good and bad- than you will expect and the knowledge will serve you well for as long as you use it. Dave

+1 ^^^. Nothing to be scared of. I'd rather invest that $1,700 in a good straight-edge, dial indicators, David Best's manual, etc. Then, you will never be paralyzed if something goes out of whack. Just my 2-cents, of course. Best of luck, whatever you decide to do.

Erik

[John Adank]

I've thought about doing it myself but I've not been able to obtain a copy of David Best's manual. It's not available anymore so that would leave me in a little bit of a jamb with not having anything to refer to.

My concern is that this equipment is a whole new learning curve for me because I've never used a sliding table saw before. I only have my saw Stop which I calibrated myself but there were plenty of articles and videos to help me along with that. Not so much for Felder machine calibration. I want to be sure I operate the equipment correctly. I know someone mentioned here how their Felder tech instructed them not to leave the jointer/planer transmission engaged when not in use to prevent flat spots on the rollers. I would hope that in addition to the calibration, that those are some of the important aspects the tech shares and explains to you. That $1800 would go a long way towards my MM 16 bandsaw but it sure is nice when everyone is true and square.

[Erik Loza]

...My concern is that this equipment is a whole new learning curve for me because I've never used a sliding table saw before.

Did you ever reach out to Mac and see what he would charge to do the setup for you?

Erik

[James Baker SD]

I agree with Eric and David. I commissioned my own KF700SP (10'table) and AD741. It took me about 10 days to get them both set to my satisfaction, but I am very pleased with their performance, I am know how they are put together. On the other hand I am a hobbyist and time was not an issue for me, and my budget was already way over stretched.

James

[John Adank]

Yes, he said to give you his best. He also said he has a general knowledge of the
machinery but was not as familiar with the newer machines. He thought I could dot it myself but I think it would better to have someone else do it

[John Adank]

I didn't ask him specifically if I could hire him for the set up. Maybe I should have. I just asked for help

[Erik Loza]

Sam Blasco, my former colleague (and still a Minimax/SCM rep) could be another option. I know that he does in-house (Austin-area) seminars and has also traveled to customers' shops in the past to do the same thing. In fact, I think Sam just got back from Italy and did a video on the big Elite-S full combo when he was there. You might reach out to him. Cost probably would be the same as what you would pay felder but unlike a machine tech (not that there's anything wrong with that role), Sam can do the commissioning AND show how to actually use the machine and get the most out of it. Not to be cute, but you did buy the BMW. You can't just go to the local lube joint for an oil chage or tuneup, if you get what I mean.

Erik

[John Adank]

Yes, Sam is a great guy. I communicated with him a lot over the last couple years about a saw and jointer/planer. He was always available to answer questions. I feel terrible I didn't order from him but it just came down to options and accessories with the Felder. Maybe I'll try contacting him and asking but I have to admit I feel awkward after I went with the competitor.

I couldn't agree with you more on the BMW comment. More like a Mercedes. Great vehicles and over engineered like Felder. When they need repairs it's expensive. My wife's car for example has two batteries, one for starting in the front and one in the rear for the accessories. It was $800 for two batteries. A used Mercedes isn't expensive to own but expensive to maintain.

[John Adank]

Dave, maybe I need to make that trip up to see you after all. I forgot we spoke a few years ago privately about sliding table saws.

[David Kumm]

I think I have a David Best book somewhere. I'll look. I have seven or eight sliders to look at if you get this direction. Dave

[John Adank]

Wow, I guess we spoke back in 2012. I live in La Crosse WI. 7 or 8 sliders? You must have some kind of business.

[David Kumm]

The accounting business supports the hobby. I buy used and rehab. Goes in starts and stops. Working on metalworking machines now. they make woodworking stuff seem really simple. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

I think I have a David Best book somewhere. I'll look. I have seven or eight sliders to look at if you get this direction. Dave

I only have 5 now....newest one is a scmi si12 short stroke. Looking forward to using that saw, the two 10'6" ones I have are basically worthless for anything I do.

[David Kumm]

Darcy, just means you are more sensible than I am. SI12 has always looked like a decent machine. How does it compare to your Whitney? Dave

[Darcy Warner]

Darcy, just means you are more sensible than I am. SI12 has always looked like a decent machine. How does it compare to your Whitney? Dave

I loved that 77, it was a good all around saw. The scmi let's me do some larger cross cut work, I will miss the dado capacity of the 77, I can still use the scmi like a regular saw as well. I think the si12 is a more versital saw, but it doesn't have the rarity or the looks of the 77.