Wooden wedge-set smoothing plane advice

[Steven Mikes]

Still learning how to use planes here.
I got a Mujingfang (Chinese made) ~7" smoothing plane. I flattened the sole and sharpened the blade when I got it, and it seemed to work pretty well on soft wood. Last night I tried it on a piece of oak though and couldn't get it to cut at all. The blade kept getting pushed back into the body instead. Anyone familiar enough to diagnose the problem? I'm guessing either the wedge is not set tight enough (I tried making it tighter) or the blade isn't sharp enough, or some other problem I didn't think of :)

Also when planing the pine wood I felt some chatter, would that be a chipbreaker adjustment problem?

Thanks!

[Kees Heiden]

Some things to look at.
- Sharpness indeed.
- Flat sole, check again.
- How well is the blade bedded on the bed?
- How well is the wedge fitted?

Those last too are a bit harder to diagnose.

Checking the bed: Smear the iron with something that prints on the bed of the blade. Pencil, oil, candle sooth. Choose something that makes clear marks. Insert the blade again in the plane carrefully and lay it down on the bed carefully. Set the wege, and tap it tight. Now advance the blade down with a few hammer taps. Remove the blade and have a look at the marks on the bed. There shouls be a well defined line low down almost near the mouth of the plane. When you see only marks in the middle of the bed, then surely the blade is wobbling about.

Checking the wedge fit. Insert the blade and wedge and tighten it. Now look very carefully along the wedge fingers. Use a thin feeler gauge to check for any gaps. Best is a fit all along the wedge fingers but again the fit down below near the mouth is most important.

[Patrick Chase]

At the risk of asking an insulting question: How are you setting the wedge? The usual approach is to give it a light rap with a mallet to lock the iron in place. As you sure you're really getting it wedged in there (pun intended)?

As Kees suggests, both the blade retraction and the chatter are consistent with lack of sharpness, and IMO that's by far the most likely explanation for the combination of symptoms you describe.

Both of your symptoms are also consistent with inadequate clearance. What are the bed angle and tip bevel angle?

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Is it still working on the softer wood? When it is not working it can be frustrating, so it helps to go through a checklist of the very basic stuff (bevel up versus bevel down for example).

If you are trying to use it with a very close setting on the chipbreaker, back that off to 1/8 or something and try it again.

[Steven Mikes]

Patrick no worries, I asked the question after all. I set the wedge with a good tap from a wooden mallet. I'm more worried I wedged it in too much than anything else, took a few taps on the body to get it out again.
After looking at the iron and reading up again on sharpening, that's probably the culprit. I didn't flatten the back of the blade so all the factory grind marks are still there. I've been rubbing it on 120 grit wet/dry paper for the last 20 minutes and can finally see some of them disappearing around the edges, maybe I need to get some coarser paper lol. Anyways after I finish *properly* sharpening the blade I'll give it another try.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick no worries, I asked the question after all. I set the wedge with a good tap from a wooden mallet. I'm more worried I wedged it in too much than anything else, took a few taps on the body to get it out again.
After looking at the iron and reading up again on sharpening, that's probably the culprit. I didn't flatten the back of the blade so all the factory grind marks are still there. I've been rubbing it on 120 grit wet/dry paper for the last 20 minutes and can finally see some of them disappearing around the edges, maybe I need to get some coarser paper lol. Anyways after I finish *properly* sharpening the blade I'll give it another try.

...and another perfectly good SMC thread goes to the sharpening dogs.

120# is ~5 mil abrasive particle diameter, so the back must have been out of flat by at least several mils. That would be enough to cause cap-iron mating issues, so that's another possibility to consider. You'd have trouble with that iron sooner or later, so I think you're right to start by fixing the sharpening, and then try again to see if there are other issues hiding behind that obvious one.

The fact that you got a wedge-based ECE to work well is good in the sense that it gives you something to compare to and aim for.

[Steven Mikes]

Progress! I did the following:

Starting with 60 grit paper ground the back of the blade until all grinding marks near the edge were gone. This took /forever/ (like, more than 1 hour. My hands were not happy.)
I mostly polished it up after, there are some scratches left still but it should be pretty decent.

Sharpened the blade. Put a ~28 degree micro bevel on the edge, polished to a mirror finish.

Flattened the sole of the plane again, this time on a sheet of sandpaper large enough to fit the whole thing at once, and I used my granite kitchen counter top as a flat surface.

Reshaped the wedge. The wooden wedge is not flat like the ECE plane wedge, it has two prongs with empty space in between. One side was visibly thicker than the other and was wedging first while the other one still had a small gap.

Smoothed the surface of the cap iron that contacts the blade. It was very rough with grind marks.

After spending several hours doing all of the above, it seems to work pretty well. I was able to plane on both soft and hard wood!


One remaining concern I have is the cap iron: The edge that contacts the blade is noticeably tilted, i.e. it wasn't ground flat in relation to the body. When seated on the blade before tightening, one corner is floating above the iron. When the screw is tightened it does pull down along the whole edge, but I'm worried this is applying some sort of twisting force to the blade. Is this something that needs to be fixed, or does it not really matter? I don't think it's something I could do by hand with sandpaper, there's too much of a difference to level it out. Would have to take it to a machinist to grind it flat.

[george wilson]

Assuming you have the blade sharp (note how I dodged sharpening here!:)) What I usually do is either one to getting the iron set. One is: I set the plane on a very flat board and set the iron into the throat before it hits bottom then
i slip in the wedge and gently tap it into place enough to not let the iron slip. Then,looking down into the throat, I tap the iron down till it touches the flat board which the plane is sitting on. Then,I give the wedge a harder tap to hold the blade tighter.

At this point,I go ahead and let the iron take a cut. If the cut is too coarse,I strike the top front of the plane - hopefully you have a striking knob!- and try the iron again for cut,and any sideways tipping it may WELL have. I hold the plane upside down. With one hand,I make a 'bridge ' over the iron. That way,I can see the iron better. It is pointed at a window or other DIFFUSED light source. Then,with the small brass hammer I made long ago for this,I knock the blade about from underneath till it is dead parallel across the sole of the plane. If the iron protrudes too much,I hit the striking knob again,with as much force as needed to jump the blade back down the required amount. THIS TAKES PRACTICE!!!! ALL THIS TAKES PRACTICE. Again,I take a little cut,and if the blade does not cut cut enough,I strike the top of the iron with the SMALL brass hammer (Brookstone used to sell a little brass hammer with a head 1/2" in diameter and about 2" long. I have seen this little hammer in various catalogs. This is a decent little hammer for tweaking the blade about.) If the long parentheses confuse the sentence's meaning,read the sentence again,skipping over the parentheses. Now that the blade is very close to perfect,you can give the wedge a firmer whack-but not enough to jar the blade. This takes skill and judgement,too.

This whole process takes me about 15 seconds or less. Usually less. It sounds like a LOT of trouble,but it is not. I'm leaving out another approach I use because it takes even more skill,and might frustrate you as a novice. I really ENJOY setting wooden plane irons as after just a few months of doing it daily in my 18th. C. shop,I already got very competent at it,and it was instructive to the audience and quick,to hopefully inspire those so inclined to get a wooden plane. THERE IS NOTHING LIKE THEM AS FAR AS SMOOTH PLANING, especially with a bit of paraffin on the sole. The plane slips effortlessly over the wood if properly adjusted. Metal planes tend to feel like pushing an anchor by comparison (at least it SEEMS that way). Of course,I have made many infills though,mostly without any adjustment mechanism,since I enjoy setting the iron manually. EVERYTHING TAKES PRACTICE AND BUILDING UP SKILL.

There was a Japanese(off the boat) in a drafting class in college. He drew everything with a traditional brush that had the needle like point if the hairs were smoothed down. He was drawing a THIN line along the T square (construction lines). When asked how he d drew thicker lines (object lines),he said BEAR DOWN HARDER!!!!! I think that guy had no nerves at all! That's the way thousands of draftsmen in Japan learned to do drafting before all went computer.

If you think you are having a hard time,remember the Japanese student!

[Stewie Simpson]

Progress! I did the following:

Starting with 60 grit paper ground the back of the blade until all grinding marks near the edge were gone. This took /forever/ (like, more than 1 hour. My hands were not happy.)
I mostly polished it up after, there are some scratches left still but it should be pretty decent.

Sharpened the blade. Put a ~28 degree micro bevel on the edge, polished to a mirror finish.

Flattened the sole of the plane again, this time on a sheet of sandpaper large enough to fit the whole thing at once, and I used my granite kitchen counter top as a flat surface.

Reshaped the wedge. The wooden wedge is not flat like the ECE plane wedge, it has two prongs with empty space in between. One side was visibly thicker than the other and was wedging first while the other one still had a small gap.

Smoothed the surface of the cap iron that contacts the blade. It was very rough with grind marks.

After spending several hours doing all of the above, it seems to work pretty well. I was able to plane on both soft and hard wood!


One remaining concern I have is the cap iron: The edge that contacts the blade is noticeably tilted, i.e. it wasn't ground flat in relation to the body. When seated on the blade before tightening, one corner is floating above the iron. When the screw is tightened it does pull down along the whole edge, but I'm worried this is applying some sort of twisting force to the blade. Is this something that needs to be fixed, or does it not really matter? I don't think it's something I could do by hand with sandpaper, there's too much of a difference to level it out. Would have to take it to a machinist to grind it flat.

You should always bear in mind that this plane was fettled in by its maker before being offered for sale. If the wedge is now not fitting correctly, then the whole stock has moved out of alignment due to the long term effects of seasonal movement. Fettle the bed in 1st, then the wedge abutments, then the planes sole last.

Note; the wedge abutments are reshaped to fit the wedge. You don't reshape the wedge to fit the abutments.

Apart from a couple of notables on this forum site, the rest of the membership are as green as grass when it comes to offering much advise on fettling in traditional wedge abutment bench planes.

Stewie;

[george wilson]

I did assume that the plane to be adjusted by the OP was already properly fettled in and ready for use. Most are unless over many years a different wedge has somehow been fitted. Very often a different iron may be put in. In the old days,a cabinet maker would sharpen 3 or 4 irons in the morning. Then,he'd put in another iron when the other got dulled. The irons had to be similarly tapered,with similar cap irons. Most English irons I used,though hand forged,were surprisingly similar in those considerations,and would fit o.k..

I made a habit of collecting antique English irons at flea markets in Pennsylvania when I was using old tools daily in the instrument shop. It was a good thing that those people in Pa. seemed to never throw away anything!

[Derek Cohen]

As an alternative to George's method, although mine is essentially similar, I use a sheet of glass or perspex that is glued to hardwood.

Set the sole of the plane (minus the blade and wedge) on the glass. Slide the blade in until it touches the glass surface, pressing it firmly against the bed. Now slip in the wedge and firm it down with finger pressure. Give it a little tap with your mallet.

The glass will not damage the edge of the blade.

This set up leaves the blade almost flush with the sole. It should cut with the minimum blade projection. Use it this way for a very fine cut.

It is easier to tap the back of the blade for increase projection than the opposite. Rapping the rear of the plane's body will loosen the wedge and this can throw the settings out.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

With all due respect Derek. And admitting that I haven't tried glass for setting a plane blade,how can glass,which is harder than most plane blades,not hurt the very fine and sharp cutting edge? I think I'd better stick to wood. I have less trouble with the idea of instead using perspex (Plexiglass to us here),though wood is definitely easier on a razor sharp edge.

I know how hard to hit the striking knob to jump the iron downwards a bit. If a novice can't do it right,hitting the top of the iron is good,too,and I often do it also. Actually,striking the top of a tapered blade to jump the iron downwards does also loosen the wedge if you think about it.My method just depends upon how I feel about it at the moment.This last sentence sounds vague. But the brain's mood can make different choices,and if it is familiar with both approaches,and skilled,it can pull it off.

I only rap the back of a plane(hopefully also with a striking knob there! To loosen the wedge so I can easily remove everything and sharpen the iron.

Like I said before: PRACTICE.

[Derek Cohen]

Heh .. George, try it! I have used glass for years and never damaged an edge, or vice versa. All I know is that it creates a very fine setting, which is perfect for smoothers, such as my HNT Gordon smoother and palm smoother.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

One remaining concern I have is the cap iron: The edge that contacts the blade is noticeably tilted, i.e. it wasn't ground flat in relation to the body. When seated on the blade before tightening, one corner is floating above the iron. When the screw is tightened it does pull down along the whole edge, but I'm worried this is applying some sort of twisting force to the blade. Is this something that needs to be fixed, or does it not really matter? I don't think it's something I could do by hand with sandpaper, there's too much of a difference to level it out. Would have to take it to a machinist to grind it flat.

Before grinding the cap iron you might try bending it by hand. This has worked for me a few times.

The cap iron can be set in a vise and a couple of pieces of scrap wood can be used to make a handle to apply a little torsional correction.

jtk

[george wilson]

By the time a machinist grinds it flat,the curved down end may not have enough down bearing to keep chips getting under it. Take Jim's advice. I can tell you from experience,it won't be easy to bend. You won't break it.

Derek: I'm sure that it works for you as you are an accomplished wood worker. We just have different ways to go about it. And,are both too old to change our ways!:)

[Jim Koepke]

Derek: I'm sure that it works for you as you are an accomplished wood worker. We just have different ways to go about it. And,are both too old to change our ways!

It always seems like there are at least a half dozen ways to do just about anything and all of them seem to work.

When I set my molding planes against a piece of wood it always seem there is too much blade sticking out. Then again tapping the wedge also seems to advance the blade a touch.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Derek: I'm sure that it works for you as you are an accomplished wood worker. We just have different ways to go about it. And,are both too old to change our ways!:)

Hi George

Yep. Some mornings I am even older. :)

I mentioned this method with mixed trepidation and curiosity. Trepidation as it sounds as if it will cause damage to the blade, and curiosity since I wondered how others would react. I'd love someone to try it (on a smoother) and report back. The worst is that you will chip an edge (I emphasise that I have never done so), and the best is that you get a perfect fine cut immediately. Use plain float glass, enough that the plane comfortably balances on the mouth.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

I can't imagine wanting to keep a piece of glass handy for every time one sharpens and replaces an iron. Or having to retrieve the glass from safe place and stow it away again. What wooden planes do you use on a regular basis?

I use a wooden jack plane and a wooden trying plane for stock preparation. I sight down the sole to adjust the iron. Not surprisingly Japanese craftsmen seem to use the same method.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm the same as Warren, I prefer to sight down the sole to set the plane. I have a couple walls in my shop painted white and they make a perfect background for this, making it very clear how far the blade is protruding.

[Patrick Chase]

With all due respect Derek. And admitting that I haven't tried glass for setting a plane blade,how can glass,which is harder than most plane blades,not hurt the very fine and sharp cutting edge?

Glass is softer than most plane blades isn't it?

The references I can find offhand list a Vickers hardness of ~600 kgf/mm^2, which is Rc55 or so.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm the same as Warren, I prefer to sight down the sole to set the plane. I have a couple walls in my shop painted white and they make a perfect background for this, making it very clear how far the blade is protruding.

Same here. With the right lighting geometry you can easily distinguish *very* small extensions that way. The trick is of course to accurately sight down the sole. I've seen more than a few people accidentally sight "below" the sole and overestimate extension as a result.

The problem I've had with "surface registration" techniques (using a piece of glass etc) is that it can be hard to get lateral position right when using cambered iron, as the iron can register to the surface in multiple orientations. Maybe I'm missing something though.

[Derek Cohen]

I can't imagine wanting to keep a piece of glass handy for every time one sharpens and replaces an iron. Or having to retrieve the glass from safe place and stow it away again. What wooden planes do you use on a regular basis?

I use a wooden jack plane and a wooden trying plane for stock preparation. I sight down the sole to adjust the iron. Not surprisingly Japanese craftsmen seem to use the same method.

What wooden planes? I regularly use three HNT Gordon planes: Smoother, Trying Plane and Palm Smoother (the latter is smaller than the average block plane). I also regularly use a 15" jack and a 28" jointer I built. I even have a BD low angle woodie block plane I made and use. I have been using woodies as long as I have used metal planes. I am not inexperienced, Warren.

Yes, I also sight down the plane when adjusting the blade. Using a setting plate (planed wood is common) is not a new invention. It is very useful when adjusting a woodie for the first time. It is much easier to adjust the blade out- than inward. A setting plate gets you started and saves much time. Often you are good to go straight away. I have used a glass plate glued to hardwood for many years without mishap. It hangs on the wall alongside my bench. How hard is that?

It is amazing how the nay-sayers come out of the woodwork as soon as there is something different. Someone here needs to try this and feedback. Note, I do not drop the blade onto the glass. I am not stupid. The blade is slid down the bed until it gently touches the glass surface. Hold the plane firmly flat on the glass when you do this. Then press the blade down. Drop in the wedge and firm it. Remove the plane from the setting plate and tap the wedge firmly (don't do this on the plate).

Patrick, all my blades are cambered.

The glass restricts the blade penetrating beyond the sole. Trying to do this on a bench top does not work as well as there is inevitably shavings and dust to interfere.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

My experience with using wood as a setting plate is that the setting invariably ends up being too coarse. So I never pursued this idea any further. The piece of glass I have in the shop for lapping purposes is way too large and unwieldy.

My usual method is setting it close to the edge, then tap it down and try, tap and try. A bit cumbersome I must say.

[ken hatch]

I'm with Derek....I have a float glass glued to a hanging board jig while I don't use it all the time I will usually use it for the first setting after removing the iron. It just makes setting the iron go faster. set stock on glass, slide in the iron, then the wedge, give the wedge a tap and start planing. While I will sight down the sole I can never remember needing to adjust for the first cut.

A photo of my jig and a few of my woodies with shavings straight off the jig with no adjustment.

363049

[george wilson]

Try using a piece of hard wood like maple,Kees. Perhaps you already do that.

I have a second way of setting irons. I gave the first way in hopes it would be easier for beginners. Actually,my second way is about the same as Derek's and Warrens. Just put the blade in and keep turning it over to make sure the iron isn't sticking out of the sole too much. Some tapping of the wedge and the iron while shading the sole with my hand arched over the plane,while it is upside down. That way,you can see the iron much better. It takes more skill and practice than the other way, but becomes quick and natural after you've done it enough times.

I will reveal my 3rd. way of setting a plane. But,this is not for the lily livered: I set the plane on a workbench with a heavy piece of wood behind it. I load my revolver with .22 CB caps(CB caps have no powder in them;just the primer. But,they still hit harder than any of my airguns. With amazing skill I bounce CB's of the top of the iron a few times,and finally tighten the wedge,which has a steel top I have added. These are very LOW ANGLE bounces. I have done this thousands of times,and it takes about 4 quick shots from about 15 feet away to graze the iron and wedge into perfect position. I've done this so many times that I had to burn the heavy piece of wood (a 4"x8"x12" block of hardwood,to recover the lead.

I had to limit my setting of the plane by this method because it made the babies in the audience start crying. Besides,the revolver wasn't 18th. C. looking.

Now,you believe that and I'll tell you another one.

[Kees Heiden]

Only in America!

[Derek Cohen]

Try using a piece of hard wood like maple,Kees. Perhaps you already do that.

The other reason I recommend glass rather than hardwood is that the local hardwood is so much harder than glass and steel. Drop your blade onto a slice of Wandoo (http://roleybushcare.com.au/bush-topics/126-wandoo), and the blade will shatter ..... (ducking and running) :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

You need to keep working on your tall tales,Derek!!:)

But,I can believe you about the hardness of your wood. Has to be bullet proof from those crazy Aussies running about shooting wallabies and roos! The forest would be clear full of bullet holes.:)

[Dave Gardner]

I don't have a frog in this fight, but it seems intuitive to me that the blade meets the glass at a decent angle. Assuming the glass is in good shape, the blade would want to glide forward rather than bite into the glass, right? Maybe it would even burnish the bevel a little.

[Patrick Chase]

I don't have a frog in this fight, but it seems intuitive to me that the blade meets the glass at a decent angle. Assuming the glass is in good shape, the blade would want to glide forward rather than bite into the glass, right? Maybe it would even burnish the bevel a little.

Somebody else (Derek?) made the key point - the glass is just a "tactile stop" against which to register during insertion. If you push hard enough for any of the stuff we're discussing to come into play then you're doing it wrong.

As I said in previous posts, I'm a "sight down the sole" person, but I don't see anything horribly wrong with using glass.