Table Saw Deicsion: Can You Help Me? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

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Jonathan Dormody

10-24-2005, 1:20 PM

All,

I've narrowed my tablesaw upgrade down to two saws: The Delta 831LA Unisaw and the Powermatic 1660802K model 66 special edition.

The main differences between the two seem to be size (Powermatic is a bit smaller), price (delta is 725 cheaper), quality (I think this goes to Powermatic), base (I think Delta's mobile bases are better, though there is probably a good 3rd party for the Powermatic). Both are 30" tables (I only have 1/2 of a garage). Both seem to have good fences (though I am not sure which one is easiest to use with jigs).

I guess what means most to me is buying my final life-long saw that won't take up my entire shop. I'd love to save a bit, but if the powermatic is supreemly better, I'd go that route.

Thoughts?

- Jon

Michael Ballent

10-24-2005, 1:28 PM

I know that you have not included this in you selection, but since I own one and we all have our favorite brands out there... Have you considered a SawStop? You also get a riving knife and in the event you hit the blade while it is spinning it will stop the blade and drop it below the tabletop. Other than that, I would say pick a color for the machine you want and off you go :D

As far as a fence the Beismeyer style fences are the most friendly to jigs, but there are people out there that LOVE the Unifence :D ( right Jim ;) ).

All,

I've narrowed my tablesaw upgrade down to two saws: The Delta 831LA Unisaw and the Powermatic 1660802K model 66 special edition.

The main differences between the two seem to be size (Powermatic is a bit smaller), price (delta is 725 cheaper), quality (I think this goes to Powermatic), base (I think Delta's mobile bases are better, though there is probably a good 3rd party for the Powermatic). Both are 30" tables (I only have 1/2 of a garage). Both seem to have good fences (though I am not sure which one is easiest to use with jigs).

I guess what means most to me is buying my final life-long saw that won't take up my entire shop. I'd love to save a bit, but if the powermatic is supreemly better, I'd go that route.

Thoughts?

- Jon

Byron Trantham

10-24-2005, 1:41 PM

Both saws are fine saws. I own the Unisaw (upgraded from a CM contractor's saw). I am sure that either saw will meet your needs.

Barry Beech

10-24-2005, 1:56 PM

You might want to consider the Powermatic 2000 that is out or will be out soon.

I has a riving knife which most people on here like.

I think I saw that it is cheaper than the 66. Don't hold me to that though.

Doug Shepard

10-24-2005, 1:58 PM

I think I've got the same PM66 you're considering, but I don't know my exact model number off the top of my head. Mine is what they sometimes refer to as the Home Workshop Edition. It's the 30" fence 3HP. I also bought the PM mobile base for it and it's a good unit, although I haven't done a comparison to the Delta MB. It rolls very smoothly on a concrete garage floor. I think an awful lot of the MB's with manufacturers badging on them are made by HTC anyway. Mine looks like it might be an HTC design. I've had the saw now for roughly 7-8 years and kick myself for not having bought it sooner. I previously had a Craftsman Contractor Saw, so the PM was a huge improvement. I spent a couple of days fine tuning the setup with a dial indicator and haven't had to touch it since. I'm not up to speed on the Delta fence but I think it might have the edge over the PM. There's no T-Track or other provisions on mine for attaching jigs or anything. Plus the Delta lets you do that pullback feature for use as a stop-block while using the MItre Gauge.

Andrew Ault

10-24-2005, 2:39 PM

I have a Delta right tilt Unisaw with a 52" Beisemeyer fence on a Delta mobile base.

I purchased it used locally off of Craigslist.

It is everything I need in a tablesaw and easy to set up and calibrate. I gather that the Powermatic is a bit heavier with a bit more quality, but for my purposes the Delta fits the bill. If I won the lottery or something I would probably get a Sawstop or a MiniMax, but the truth is, I've been very pleased with the performance of my saw. Actually, it I won the lotto, I might keep the Uni and just build a bigger shop. :)

John Hedges

10-24-2005, 5:08 PM

Just wondering if you had considered the General. In this category that would be my choice.

If you are going with the PM66 I also have heard from distributors that when the PM2000 comes out the price on the 66 will go up and the 2000 will fill the price point the 66 is in now, so you may want to consider that and get it before it does. The PM2000 will be made overseas and have additional features (better dust collection, built in mobile base, riving knife (thought not as nice as the one on the SawStop IMHO)), while the 66 will still be the PM flagship and be made in the US.

Jim Hager

10-24-2005, 5:21 PM

I haven't used a pm 66 in a long time but I do have 2 unisaws in my shop at home 2 at school where I work and a brand spankin new saw stop in the shop at shcool.

For the money the unisaw with a beismeyer 52" fence is the way I would go again if I had to do it all over. We got the sawstop at school equipped that way too, but got the new technology to help protect the students who use it.

We have one of the uni's at work with a unifence and although I get along with it pretty well I like the beis fence much better.

I wish I had some experience witht he pm 66 but I don't. All I can do is assure you that the unisaw is a great saw to own.

Tom Peterson

10-24-2005, 7:53 PM

Jon,
I have the Unisaw in Left tilt with the 30" capacity. More than ample. I purchased mine through Woodworkers Supply. Came promptly with lift gate delivery and 10% off for being a first time buyer. You won't be disapponted with either saw.

John Miliunas

10-24-2005, 9:21 PM

Jon, I have to believe you'd be happy with either saw but, I also need to share my own bias on this subject. If you like the heavier duty trunion assembly on the PM, you may be interested in knowing that the General 650 AND the Bridgewood from Wilke Machinery also share that particular feature! :) When I was looking a couple years ago, I was down to the two you're looking at, as well as the General and the BW. The PM and the the General I ended up having to discount, due to cost. With the BW being of essentially identical build and design, that's what I went with. Plus, there is little disputing that Wilke Machinery has some of the best Technical and Customer Support around. Just something to consider...:D :cool:

Norman Hitt

10-24-2005, 9:44 PM

15 years ago, I upgraded from a Craftsman left tilt contractors saw to a PM 66 and had the option of fences, and I chose the 52" Biesemeyer Commercial fence, and couldn't be happier with both. I have no plans to ever replace this saw. There are fans of both saws you mentioned and both are good saws, so look them both over real good, and pick the one you like best, (that's what I did), and have never regretted my decision. I will say that there are more quality saws available now than there were when I picked mine, but I haven't seen anything yet that would make me want to trade mine in.

Good luck with both your shopping and the decision, after all, the shopping is a big part of the fun of it all, and picking the one YOU like best will more likely ensure long term satisfaction.

John Russell

10-24-2005, 11:44 PM

I bout a unisaw last year after looking at various saws. I wanted a General 650 which I think is a great saw, but the parts availability and price difference swayed me to the Unisaw. While practicing rabbets my left index finger went into the blade. 2500 dollars later, I am minus a finger tip and a bunch of cash i would rather have spent on woodworking. Accidents happen no matter how you prepare.... a trip to the ER can be costly and the aftermath of an accident is not pleasant.

I sold my Unisaw -- i relaly love that saw -- and bought a Sawstop. The quality of the Sawstop is superb as a saw PLUS there is the added insurance of the sawstop brake. I am no less careful with the Sawstop than i was with my Unisaw.

For anyone considering a new cabinet saw I would vote Sawstop or a General.

Phil Maddox

10-24-2005, 11:50 PM

I think the PM is the better saw, but not by $725. It is worth maybe $200 to me.

If I were going to buy a saw today it would probably be a General or Bridgewood - but that is not the question you asked.

Good luck!

Michael Gabbay

10-25-2005, 8:27 AM

Where's Dev when you need him????? :D

I had similar questions over the summer. Basically Dev gave us the history of castings and why the modern Unisaws and PMs are not the same as the older ones. Basically from Dev's write up, General is the only company that uses the same casting methods of the older saws which insures a flatter more stable top.

Having looked at General, PM, Delta, and Bridgewood, I think the overall design of the General is the nicest. The Bridgewood has a tank of a trunion but its an import so I'm a little concerned about parts and the motor etc.

If I had $2000 I'd get the General. If I had $1400 and could not come up with another $600 I'd get the Bridgewood.

That's my very humble opinion.... :D

Mike

Jeff Sudmeier

10-25-2005, 8:41 AM

JayStPeter

10-25-2005, 10:30 AM

I have the Unisaw. It's a great saw.

I don't think there is a question that the PM is a beefier saw. But, the fact is that both these saws see duty in industrial and full-time cabinet shops. I don't think my 5 or 6 hrs a week hobby is going to wear out either one. I used to rent time in a shop that had one of each (and a Jet). The cuts (and fences) were basically the same, so I let my wallet choose. I have also used a friends Grizzly. Any of those saws would do just fine. I got a good deal on the Unisaw, so that's what I got. If I was looking right now, I'd probably choose the SawStop.

Jay

Steven Wilson

10-25-2005, 11:47 AM

I had a PM66 and it is a great saw. Having seen a Unisaw, Jet, and Powermatic with the tops off was an eye opening experience. My choice would be between a PM66 and a General. I would strongly urge that you consider the longer rails though. A 30" rail still presents a saw with 5' of frontal length, going with a 50" rail increases it to 7' which is not much difference. I had the 50" rails and an HTC outfeed roller system (folds down) and the saw was surprisingly mobile.

Another option might be a Euro combo machine. I upgraded to a Minimax CU350 with 8' slider and surprisingly that beast can be stuffed into less area that my PM66 table saw, PM60 jointer, and Dewalt planer took up. If you went with a 5' slider combo machine then the space needed is even less. Just a thought

Gary Curtis

10-25-2005, 3:56 PM

[QUOTE=Michael Gabbay]Where's Dev when you need him????? :D

I had similar questions over the summer. Basically Dev gave us the history of castings and why the modern Unisaws and PMs are not the same as the older ones. Basically from Dev's write up, General is the only company that uses the same casting methods of the older saws which insures a flatter more stable top.

Mike, could you direct to the thread written by Dev? I was the guy on SMC who purchased a Canadian General saw and posted a gloat. The tool company told me the steel was superior. They didn't say why.

Gary Curtis

Brian Hale

10-25-2005, 4:26 PM

Here's another vote for the Bridgewood (didn't see that coming did ya? :rolleyes: ) I've had mine for about 1 1/2 years now and can't complain about anything, it's built like a tank.

Check out these pics of the trunions on the Bridgewood and PM66. Not only is the Bridgewood mounting fixed at a wider point but it's attached to the base with 8 bolts as opposed to 4. As far as i know, no other cabinet saw is built like this.

I've purchased 7 Bridgewood machines from Wilke and each is well built and more than powerful enough to take on anything i can throw it.

Brian :)

No, i don't work for Wilke, I just appreciate getting my money's worth.

Jonathan Dormody

10-25-2005, 5:18 PM

You guys are awsome...though I'll have to look at the bridgewood and general now. Sheesh, this isn't easy. Research, research, research...

- Jon

John Miliunas

10-25-2005, 6:28 PM

You guys are awsome...though I'll have to look at the bridgewood and general now. Sheesh, this isn't easy. Research, research, research...

- Jon

LOL! Yeah, and you thought we were going to make it easier on you!:D (BW10LTS) I think whichever one you choose (BW10LTS) you're looking at some of the better machines out there, (BW10LTS) sans the Euro or super-duty old iron. While researching, be sure to check track records of the different OEM's & vendors. (BW10LTS, which is also partially assembled, tested and cosmoline cleaned off before you get it!) I believe we may have given you some very objective (BW10LTS) info to give you a good start!:rolleyes: :D (BW10LTS) Good luck with your search and keep us posted! We'll be waiting for the big gloat!:D :cool:

Jonathan Dormody

10-25-2005, 6:33 PM

LOL! Yeah, and you thought we were going to make it easier on you!:D (BW10LTS) I think whichever one you choose (BW10LTS) you're looking at some of the better machines out there, (BW10LTS) sans the Euro or super-duty old iron. While researching, be sure to check track records of the different OEM's & vendors. (BW10LTS, which is also partially assembled, tested and cosmoline cleaned off before you get it!) I believe we may have given you some very objective (BW10LTS) info to give you a good start!:rolleyes: :D (BW10LTS) Good luck with your search and keep us posted! We'll be waiting for the big gloat!:D :cool:

Geeze John, you are subtle...for some reason the BW10LTS is drawing me clooossseeerrr.... :p

- Jon

Brian Hale

10-25-2005, 6:33 PM

Hey John, What kind of saw would you buy.... :rolleyes:

Brian :)

Bridgetank BW10LTS

John Miliunas

10-25-2005, 6:46 PM

Hey John, What kind of saw would you buy.... :rolleyes:

Brian :)

Bridgetank BW10LTS

Gee Brian...I just don't know! (BW10LTS) I think I might consider something from Wilke, (BW10LTS) :rolleyes: who BTW, also deals in General and PM!!! :) (BW10LTS) :D :cool:

Michael Gabbay

10-25-2005, 7:31 PM

Funny thing, suddenly I have this unexplained urge to call Wilke and order a BW10LTS. I can't wait I'm driving right now. Can I pick anything up for anyone? Maybe a BW10LTS? Or possibly a BW10LTS? :D

Marc Langille

10-25-2005, 7:38 PM

Don Baer

10-25-2005, 7:41 PM

I don't have one but I've heard that the BW10LTS is aa great saw.:D

John Miliunas

10-25-2005, 8:41 PM

John,

That is a nice looking saw - and I am in the market in the near future for a cabinet saw (looking good for year end bonus - enough for an 8" jointer too). I've been a (gasp) hand tool guy for a long time, but getting some machinery to speed up things and save some $$ on non-planed/finished lumber is becoming attractive.

I am still leaning towards Grizzly only because their Springfield, MO shop is a 2 hour drive from here... :D

I want a "table saw that will do for a long time".

Both look pretty good in terms of quality, but I don't want to bust the bank either. Any last endorsements on the table saw you might recommend (BW10LTS) ? ;)

Marc, I'm sure nobody here can guess my own personal preference, (BW10LTS) but given your situation with Grizz almost next door, that's certainly something to consider. :) There are a LOT of folks plenty happy with their Grizz table saws and being so close, that's an immediate "plus" for you. In my case, even though I could get a Uni or PM locally at a reputable dealer (Woodcraft), the price point was just out of line. That left me with the used tool market, which in this area is, for whatever reason, usually extremely lean or, a distant vendor. Yes, I looked at Grizz and even had their 6" jointer. My problem was that I wanted this TS to be my last. (BW10LTS) After looking for months and reading just about everything I could, I always seemed to find both, pro's and con's on most ALL the vendors or OEM's, some of which swayed to either, the far right or the far left for the same ones. No real consistency. I figured it was a 50/50 chance with them. With the Wilke/Bridgewood relationship,(BW10LTS) I could not find any significant negative comments on either, the OEM or the vendor. Everyone reporting was extremely happy with the product and the service they received from the vendor. I also had the advantage of dealing with Wilke previously on a DC and a smaller lathe. I was treated well and I remembered that. :)

For you, though, especially being in such close proximity and being able to save a substantial amount on shipping, Grizz may be a good match for you. As I understand it, their 8" jointers ain't half bad, either. I certainly wouldn't try to talk you out of a Grizz if that's where you heart, pocketbook and logic lead you. (BW10LTS):D Being mainly a "neander", most any cabinet saw should be a super addition to your shop, regardless of flavor. Heck, thinking back a couple years, I was quite happy with my Delta CS, too! Sure beat the pants off the Shopsmith it replaced!!! Best of luck in your search/decision! And I mean that sincerely!:) :D

Bart Leetch

11-19-2005, 6:58 AM

In case you're worried about what's going to become of the younger generation, it's going to grow up and start buying (BW10LTS’s):eek: :D :D :D so stop worrying about the younger generation!!!!!

lou sansone

11-19-2005, 7:57 AM

Marc Langille

11-19-2005, 9:10 AM

I would say that all things being equal that the single most important safty item on the table saw ( saw stop is a great idea BTW) is a riving knife. after finding out that my saw has one, I would never, never go back to a regular TS without one.
lou

Hi Lou,

My intent is not to drag out a thread into endless questions, but I do have another question...:confused:

If a table saw doesn't have a riving knife, who would you recommend for an aftermarket purchase of one?

Thanks,
Marc

(PS I still keep looking at those Euro slider setups, which I believe most do come with the riving knife.)

Frank Pellow

11-19-2005, 9:24 AM

Hi Lou,

My intent is not to drag out a thread into endless questions, but I do have another question...:confused:

If a table saw doesn't have a riving knife, who would you recommend for an aftermarket purchase of one?

Thanks,
Marc

(PS I still keep looking at those Euro slider setups, which I believe most do come with the riving knife.)
Marc, a "real" riving knife has to be designed into the saw and cannot be added as an aftermarket purchase. I really wish this were not the case, because if my General 650 had a riving knife, I would consider it to be the "perfect" table saw.

Steven J Corpstein

11-19-2005, 9:25 AM

I just got done with 3 months of research and waffling back and forth.
* Unisaw - great reputation/value, but not the same quality as several years ago

* Powermatic 66 - The king, but way beyond what I deserve OR wanted to pay

* General 350/650 - Unbelievable quality/price value. I ended up with a General 650-T50 and couldn't be happier. This thing was so dead on, flat, etc. from the factory that I had it cutting wood within 3 hours after I took delivery of it. I am very particular in these kinds of purchases (money is not free flowing :-) You owe it to yourself to at least investigate these 2 saws. The build quality and support are stellar

tod evans

11-19-2005, 9:26 AM

marc, pardon me if i chip in here...biesmier offers a "splitter" retrofit for conventional saws that is easily converted to the rivving knife configuration. my.02 tod

Marc Langille

11-19-2005, 10:04 AM

Marc, a "real" riving knife has to be designed into the saw and cannot be added as an aftermarket purchase. I really wish this were not the case, because if my General 650 had a riving knife, I would consider it to be the "perfect" table saw.

Gentlemen - thanks to all of you for your answers.

My neander background is showing up! :rolleyes: I've read a lot, but I need to go to a showroom and really look. Nothing beats the good old hands on approach. There really nothing local, so a trip is in order...

However, after seeing the differences I am narrowing it down, in no specific order of preference:
Bridgewood (PA? - ouch - maybe if I do another officiating stint in Trexlertown or Altoona - I'll be in that neck of the woods)
Powermatic (nobody stocks locally)
General (dealer in Springfield)
Grizzly (due to close proximity - 2.5 hours to Springfield from here)
Euro Slider (MM - Austin TX - (weekend seminar on my birthday in January - yeah!); Laguna, etc.) Total cost on the slider might be a deal killer, since I want to invest in a jointer and planer too.

I am willing to wait, since it's a big investment. A sliding table is fairly important to me, especially since my wife has no real grasp of power tool safety. :eek: I want to have her involved too.

I can only teach her so much, but my healthy respect of chain saws and woodworking power tools in general is much higher than she has. However, that can be worked on. My family comes from an agricultural background, so tools, machinery,repairing them, etc. is second nature for me. I've seen injuries due to improper use of the tools or machinery - it's not pretty!

Frank: great CD - I can understand why you waited until retirement to build the shop - that was a very impressive undertaking!