plow planes

[Ralph Boumenot]

Looking for commentary on plow planes. I have a Record 405 and I only have used the 1/4", 5/16" and 3/8" grooving irons. I have looked at all the other irons but not used any. I will probably be dead before LN releases their plow plane so I've been looking at the Lee Valley plow plane. Curious to know if anyone has experience uses the LV plane and the Stanley 45/46 or the Record equivalents or an old wooden one.
They appear to be smaller than the Stanley/Record 45's and I would use it 99.999% to plow grooves. I'm not interested in using it for rabbets or dadoes.
Side note - I saw a post that Lee Valley is coming out with a large plow plane too. Any truth to that?
thanx
ralph

[Nicholas Lawrence]

If you search for Handworks, there is a recent thread where a member posted photos of the LV large plow. It was my impression he bought one there, but he could tell you for sure, and if so what he thinks of it.

Jim Koepke has used the Stanley planes a lot. I do not have any experience with the Stanley or Records, but have an old Sargent that I have used a fair amount. I think several members have posted about their experience with the LV small plow as well.

If you have specific questions, I am sure someone could help you out.

[Frederick Skelly]

Here's a thread where Rob Lee talks about their upcoming large plow (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?244609-A-Promise-Kept&highlight=). Coming out in the Fall.

I have their small plow and love it. I'm sure Koepke will weigh in with his extensive knowledge of the Stanleys, and IIRC he also tested the LV small plow.

[Derek Cohen]

Looking for commentary on plow planes. I have a Record 405 and I only have used the 1/4", 5/16" and 3/8" grooving irons. I have looked at all the other irons but not used any. I will probably be dead before LN releases their plow plane so I've been looking at the Lee Valley plow plane. Curious to know if anyone has experience uses the LV plane and the Stanley 45/46 or the Record equivalents or an old wooden one.
They appear to be smaller than the Stanley/Record 45's and I would use it 99.999% to plow grooves. I'm not interested in using it for rabbets or dadoes.
Side note - I saw a post that Lee Valley is coming out with a large plow plane too. Any truth to that?
thanx
ralph

Ralph, if all you plan to do is groove for drawers, there are probably a few plough planes you could consider. Record make a version (to go along with your #405) called the #044, and this is a good one. There is an even smaller plough, the #043, but this does not have the range of its bigger sibling.

The Veritas Small Plow is a better plane, but for more money than the #044, and for more money still, the new (in the Fall) Large Plow will also plough dados with its internal nickers. Both come with the facilities you have on the #405, and you may be duplicating these unnecessarily.

The difference between the Veritas Small and Large is not significant enough to pay extra if all you plan to do is plane grooves. It comes into contention if you also plan to dado.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Archie England]

I've got both the Stanley 45 and a LV plow plane. I love the 45 cool factor; but the LV plow plane just runs circles around the 45 in functional ease of use. OTOH, if all you're cutting is a groove, both perform well. The LV has fewer moving parts and is not as heavy, so I tire less. It also seems to track better but that may be feel, not fact. I bought two 45s (1 complete, the other partially) for less than I put into the LV. The LV blades are outstanding in sharpness and in getting them that way. I personally think that the LV plow confirmed for me how to use a plow plane whereas I just lacked confidence with the 45. If you have intermediate sharpening skills and already possess the confidence and knowledge of using hand planes, the 45 (I've also got a 043 that's superb but as Derek said, it just is so limited in scope) is perhaps all you would need. It's ultimately a matter of preference. Due to the lower center of gravity of the LV, I always reach for the LV when I've got a more difficult cut to make.

[Karl Andersson]

Hi Ralph,

It might help if you say why you want something other thanthe Record 405 to make grooves – is it too heavy, to finicky to set up, you don’tlike nickel plating, etc.?

Assuming you’re just looking for experiences to decide whatyou want, I have the Stanley 55 that I assume is “similar” to the 405, and Ihave the LV small plow (the original, simple setup with just one set of rodsand blades up to ¾”).

I find that the LV small plow is easier to set up and feelsmore ‘agile’ if I’m doing small work, like grooves for drawers – especially instraight-grained stuff that is rough-cut to size.

I use the 55 for dadoes, beading, etc. (that you said youweren’t really planning on) and I have also used it for grooves in long (8foot) pieces of wood because the weight helped keep it cutting when I wimpedout- less downward pressure needed. I have also used it with the nickers formaking grooves that were part of a visible decoration on the surface of thewood (I always seem to get some chips and tears on the edge of grooves whenplowing with no nicker). The LV small plow has no nickers.

Karl

[ken hatch]

Ralph,

I have a 45, a Ssndusky wood, and a LV small plow, but no Record. Of the three the LV is close to perfect. The 45 is a POS, great to look at and a marvel of engineering but like most multipurpose tools it can do many thing but non of them great. Of course you will get folks that love their 45, to that my reply is YMMV. For grooves buy a LV small plow and don't look back, from what I've seen the large plow just adds some features that do not make it a better plow plane.

ken

[Kurt Owens]

Hi Ralph, I enjoy your blog :)

I have a Record 044, a Stanley 45 and 46. The 45 isn't in usable condition yet and I doubt it ever will be. I picked it up at a garage sale last summer for $40 and it is just sitting on a shelf. I don't seem to have the desire to restore it just yet.

Oddly enough I mainly use my 46 as a rabbit plane. The 044 is what I use for grooves. It can go from 1/8" to 9/16" in 1/16" steps. I find it to be the perfect size. I forget how much I paid for it, but I got it from Leach for less than what the LV plane goes for.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

If you search for Handworks, there is a recent thread where a member posted photos of the LV large plow. It was my impression he bought one there, but he could tell you for sure, and if so what he thinks of it.

Jim Koepke has used the Stanley planes a lot. I do not have any experience with the Stanley or Records, but have an old Sargent that I have used a fair amount. I think several members have posted about their experience with the LV small plow as well.

If you have specific questions, I am sure someone could help you out.

That was me who posted images from handworks. I did buy the large plow, and I own the small plow. I was extremely impressed with the new large plow- enough that I quickly made the advance purchase. The photos are on my phone and I am on the computer now, but actually if you search for Rob Lee's post, he broke the news of the large plane on this site, and posted images. The large plane will accept the blades from the small plane, and also it takes Stanley 55 plow plane blades. The new plow has a nice feature- a fine adjustment on the fence. You set the fence to rough dimension, and then you use the fine adjustment knob to fine tune it to the exact spot you want it. Very well-thought, and the thing is just beautiful to behold with all the brass knobs. It looks like a weapon from a futuristic movie.

Per Rob Lee, the large plow is slated to be released in August, but he is hoping for sooner. I can't remember the exact price- around $350 I do believe. I bought a whole array of blades so my total came to just over $500 for the plow and blades. Blades were in the range of $25-35 each as I recall. I kind of didn't look too closely at the prices because I just wanted to get what I needed and not get all upset over the price of each item. I had decided from the start that if they had the large plow available, that is what I was going to buy. If you bought at the show, they included a nice custom-made box and free shipping. Rob said he had not even figured out pricing on the custom box, but they were wanting to make it available for purchase. It was made of baltic birch plywood and had blade storage as well as a unique way that the top locked to the bottom so you could carry it without worry that it was going to fall open.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Here are pics
362417362418

[Archie England]

Malcolm, That's some beautiful bragging rights! Congrats!!!!!

[steven c newman]

I use the Stanley 45...a LOT. Once you LEARN how to use it, it works great. Maybe that is the problem.....learning HOW to use it?

Took me a few runs, but it is now my go-to for Grooves, Dados, rebates, Tongue & Groove joints, and cutting beads. Have also used it to cut "hollows" for brace bits to sit in.

Of course, if someone merely likes a lot of bling on a simple plough plane.....

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Ralph,

Here is my account of a test drive of the Veritas Small Plow Plane:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?251419-VSPP-Veritas-Small-Plow-Plane

At about the 5th post Derek Cohen list some links to his reviews of using the plane.

My opinion is the VSPP is easier to set up and more comfortable in use than a Stanley #45 or Record #405. (The #45 & #405 are basically the same plane.)

In my case as nice as the VSPP is to use, it would be hard to convince my wife another plane is needed when there are a half dozen planes capable of doing the same thing already in my shop.


They appear to be smaller than the Stanley/Record 45's and I would use it 99.999% to plow grooves.

Yes, it is a bit smaller. This makes it ideal to use on small jobs. But doesn't keep it from plowing grooves on the big jobs. Most of the time now my plane of choice for small grooves is a Stanley #50.

My question is what will your uses be 0.001% of the time?

My Stanley #45s often are used for making molding. The Veritas Large plow plane due to be released later this year would be the modern plane for making simple moldings and decorative cuts.

Another consideration for the Veritas planes is there are metric blades available for them. This may be important if you use any plywood as it is now mostly sized to metric standards.

A friend gave me a set of metric blades for the Record #405 and it comes in handy. Metric blades are handy if you want drawer bottoms to fit snugly.

jtk

[Hasin Haroon]

Derek, how does the Large Veritas Plow perform dados? Is it simply longer fence rods that ride against the end grain allowing the plane to cut to a certain distance across the grain, or is there some other feature that makes it a good plane for dados?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Hasim

First clamp a wooden fence across the board. It needs to be 1/4" high (from memory) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/LV%20planes/Large%20Plow/1a_zpsrpr7hvtx.jpg

Note that the plough is using the second skate. Both skates have a nicker, which is set to the outside of the blade (choose the width of blade you want). Set the depth stop (which is a real beauty!). Plane away ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/LV%20planes/Large%20Plow/3a_zpsesiyc8xx.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Hasin Haroon]

Thanks for the elaboration Derek. Wow, that's a beauty. I have the small plow and the price of the Large plow was a deterrent but the new functionality is another consideration. I wonder if the conversion kit for the small plow plane would add similar functionality to the small plow? Any thoughts?

[Christopher Charles]

Might be time to buy a lottery ticket and sell some blood :)

Ralph, I have a Record 043, which is super cute and is functional for narrow grooves, but I'm saving for one of the LV planes. The dado capacity Derek just demonstrated has me leaning strongly toward the large LV....

Malcolm, can you elaborate on the blades that you purchased for the large LV? In other words, what's the whole kit and kaboodle look like?

Thanks,
Chris

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Might be time to buy a lottery ticket and sell some blood :)

Ralph, I have a Record 043, which is super cute and is functional for narrow grooves, but I'm saving for one of the LV planes. The dado capacity Derek just demonstrated has me leaning strongly toward the large LV....

Malcolm, can you elaborate on the blades that you purchased for the large LV? In other words, what's the whole kit and kaboodle look like?

Thanks,
Chris

I already own the complete set for the small plow, so I was looking to get what I don't already have. This included larger beading blades and coves- I believe up to 1/2" I can't remember the details, and also a reeding blade. Again, I can't remember the exact details but they had 3 and 4 row reeding blades available. Everything happened so fast- my adrenaline was pumping- I just kept adding to the order. Nobody was there to stop me. Next thing I know, I'm handing my card over for $538. The rest is a blur.

[steven c newman]

Hmmm...about the same price a complete NIB Stanley No. 55 seems to run......the No.45 being about half that price.

[Jim Koepke]

Hmmm...about the same price a complete NIB Stanley No. 55 seems to run......the No.45 being about half that price.

The prices on used #45 and #55 planes are down from a few years ago. A couple of Wards Master #45 versions with blades recently sold on ebay for less than $100.

jtk

[Noah Magnuson]

I also have the large LV plow coming when they release it. I believe Rob said they were shooting for Aug-Sept time frame. In anticipation, I picked up a set of cutters for a 55 so I could play around a bit with a bunch of options. I currently have the small plow and find it nice, but will likely end up with the large being the more used due to the additional features. If I were you, I would just wait a couple months and pick it up when it comes out as none of the feedback so far has been negative from those who tried it.

[Jim Koepke]

I picked up a set of cutters for a 55 so I could play around a bit with a bunch of options.

If these are the standard plow and beading cutters they should be able to work. If they are some of the cutters for ogee and other shapes you may find they are not going to work well without having a height adjustable skate.

jtk

[Pete Taran]

As a price point, there were many new in the box Stanley 45s at the Midwest meet in the $200-250 range. I didn't see as many NIB 55s, but they were around $450. The prices have dropped on these planes. I use my 45 and 55 quite a bit. I never found either hard to set up or use. Having the cutter very sharp is the secret with any of those planes.

[Patrick Chase]

As a price point, there were many new in the box Stanley 45s at the Midwest meet in the $200-250 range. I didn't see as many NIB 55s, but they were around $450. The prices have dropped on these planes. I use my 45 and 55 quite a bit. I never found either hard to set up or use. Having the cutter very sharp is the secret with any of those planes.

Out of curiosity, are prices dropping in general or are the combo planes behaving differently for some reason?

I've felt for a number of years that the plane market had become a bit "overheated", though I admit to not having terrific context...

[Christopher Charles]

Malcolm,

What happened in Amana stays in Amana.

I'll be very curious to hear your impressions when you're able to compare side-by-side.

Best,
C

[Jim Koepke]

As a price point, there were many new in the box Stanley 45s at the Midwest meet in the $200-250 range. I didn't see as many NIB 55s, but they were around $450. The prices have dropped on these planes. I use my 45 and 55 quite a bit. I never found either hard to set up or use. Having the cutter very sharp is the secret with any of those planes.

It seems the learning curve is a bit more intense on some of the combination planes. One of the hardest tricks to learn maybe how important sharpness is to good work. Next might be the bevel on the side of the blades and how the edge of the blade has to 'shadow' the skates. On the Veritas Small Plow Plane the position of the skate is set by the design of the skate. Me thinks the Large Plow might be different on this point.

The Veritas Small Plow Plane is easier to set up than a Stanley #45. Folks who are intimidated by the thought of opening the mouth on a bench plane will likely look at a vintage combination plane and panic over the multitude of "adjustments."


Out of curiosity, are prices dropping in general or are the combo planes behaving differently for some reason?

I've felt for a number of years that the plane market had become a bit "overheated", though I admit to not having terrific context...

I haven't been following the market as much as in the past.

Taking a quick look brought up this insane deal for a minimum bid of $100:

ANTIQUE, RARE EARLY BAILEY/STANLEY 10" Bedrock WOOD PLANE No Marks 602?
Item no: 122553191598

Anyone hear of a !0" #602? When was that Bailey Bedrock made?

It looks to have a stamped steel frog. Someone might get burned on that one.

What I have noticed is ebay has changed over the years. It is no longer a place where someone could comb yard sales and flea markets to sell on ebay unless you are doing it full bore. I seldom see any decent planes starting at a decent price.

There is another plane, looks to be a #5, with an early Bedrock Lever cap. The rest of the plane looks like it might not be of Stanley production, certainly not a Bedrock. What a deal, it starts at 99 cents with shipping of only $22.40 from Farmington Minnesota.

Shipping is another factor in online sales. It costs more than some of my planes are worth to ship them across country.

Combination plane prices seem to have come into a more reasonable price range. Maybe all the people who were buying them to fill a spot on their mantel finally got one. Maybe trends have changed. Has steam punk decor gone out of vogue?

The other cause of a price drop may be the introduction of a modern plow plane.

For the folks who do not want to fuss over the troubles of buying, restoring, cleaning and using a vintage combination plane the Veritas Large Plow Plane may be just what the doctor ordered.

jtk

[Ralph Boumenot]

Hi Jim,
While grooving is my intention I have used the 405 to make 2 dadoes and a couple of rabbets, that would be the.0.01%. I have a Record 043 I use for drawers and small boxes. I had a special iron made for the '1/4' plywood I use for bottoms.
I think the 405 is too bulky for running grooves and my visual only impression of the small LV plow is that isn't much better than the 043. I have seen and held the LN plow plane and that is the one I would like but I'm not waiting for it. (it's been in development for 7+ years)

[Ralph Boumenot]

Hi Derek,
I have the record 043 that I use for small things and I like it for that. Most of my larger grooves are for rails/stiles and 043 is too limited for doing them. The 405 is bigger and bulky and overkill for just doing grooves. Maybe I should just make your wooden plow plane.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Thanx for the link. It looks to be a very busy looking plow plane.

[Ralph Boumenot]

I missed Handworks this year (I went to 1 & 2). That looks to a bit complicated looking with a over abundance of knobs. Did you happen to notice if LN had their plow out for looking at?

[Ralph Boumenot]

Looking for something a bit less complicated looking like maybe the Stanley 46. This is the plane that Patrick Leach said was one of Stanley's finest offerings. I would like to hold the LV plow plane though but I'd have to go to Halifax to do that as it is the closest store to me.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Thanx for the comment. I really like LV tools except for the handles where I much prefer the Stanley look. Since I don't use the full capabilities of the 405 and just use it for grooving, maybe the small LV plow plane is what I should get. Grooves for stiles and rails is what I use the 405 for.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Hi Karl,
I have the 043 for small stuff and use the 405 for grooving stiles and rails. It is all of what you said it is to set use etc etc. have wooden molders I use for l the other irons I have for the 405. I am looking for a single purpose plow for doing grooving for larger scale work. It looks 3 so far recommend the small LV plow.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Thanx for the input Ken. I am going to put the 405 up for sale and get something else. A Stanley 044 46 or a record equivalent. The small LV plow is getting high marks too.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Hi Kurt
thanx for replying. After reading most of the responses, the LV small plow and the Stanley 46 44 seem to be the go to planes for grooving.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Thanx for the recommendation Ken. I couldn't wait to get the 405 and now it doesn't get used much because I look for something to use instead of it. The small LV plow is getting high marks. I'll have to ask Bill Rittner if he makes a Stanley replacement handle for it.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Are you married? Because you may be in the deep darkies when the bill or the tool comes. I am starting to lean in the direction of the small LV plane without all the extra irons. I want a single purpose tool to do grooves. Period.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I missed Handworks this year (I went to 1 & 2). That looks to a bit complicated looking with a over abundance of knobs. Did you happen to notice if LN had their plow out for looking at?

The LN plow was nowhere to be found. I was really hoping it would be there.

[Patrick Chase]

The LN plow was nowhere to be found. I was really hoping it would be there.

I'm not surprised that they're going slow.

Plow/combo planes seem to benefit from a fair bit of iteration by the makers. IIRC the Veritas Small Plow was in test for quite a while before it went to market, and it has subsequently gone through a major update (thankfully with a retrofit package older versions).

[Chuck Nickerson]

I really like LV tools except for the handles where I much prefer the Stanley look.

If Lee Valley (is Rob Lee listening?) would sell a bag of a dozen of those little metal brackets holding the handle to the frame, we could solve this issue ourselves.

[James Waldron]

Ralph:

I have a 405 and an 044; the 405 is a bit much for those box grooves at 1/4 inch. The 044 is smaller than the 405, but a lot more substantial than the 043 and does a very good job on box grooves, etc. Short and narrow grooves are it's best use. You really should take a look if you can. Mine works a wonder.

[steven c newman]

Stanley No. 45 was put to work tonight....took about...10 minutes to set up..
362507
Goal was to cut a joint like this....
362508
61" long, with a few knots in the way...
362509
Suppose I could dig out a beading cutter to fancy the edge up.....maybe after Door#2 is done. This is the 1/2 lap where the two doors will meet.
had to joint the edge, first..
362510
The 45 just isn't long enough to use as a jointer plane, too. YMMV

[Archie England]

Your last quip is too funny "the 45 isn't long enough to use as a jointer...."

[Noah Magnuson]

Lol, yes. Happily. I am in a fortunate position because of early life thrift and a decent job. She is very supportive as it keeps me in shape and I'm not blowing the money instead on video games, eating out, jet skis, rims for the car, stereo equipment, beer etc. Love the term "deep darkies" though. I will have to use that. I think the small LV may be just what you need.

Are you married? Because you may be in the deep darkies when the bill or the tool comes. I am starting to lean in the direction of the small LV plane without all the extra irons. I want a single purpose tool to do grooves. Period.

[Rob Lee]

If Lee Valley (is Rob Lee listening?) would sell a bag of a dozen of those little metal brackets holding the handle to the frame, we could solve this issue ourselves.

Always listening.... :)

Cust service will be able to get parts to people who want to make their own handles - no problem!

Cheers -

Rob

[lowell holmes]

You can always order irons later. You probably will, I did.:)

[Jim Koepke]

You can always order irons later. You probably will, I did.:)

Yes, you need to be careful how many irons you have. Too many and you will find yourself using them just for the fun of it. :D

jtk

[steven c newman]

Mine came with 24 irons, and I bought 4 others....
362656
Was fairly easy to set up for a cut like this..
362657

Of course, mine was made way back in the 1920s....SW era.

[Brent Parkin]

My most used plow plane is an old Stanley 141. I found it all dirty and grungy on e-Bay for less than $100. It didn't have the fillister bed with it or any cutters. I made some cutters from some spare Stanley 45 cutters, cleaned the plane up and it works amazingly. Yes it took some effort, but it is as close as you might get to the LN prototype and would certainly cost less to get grooving. Mine came with the usually missing bullnose front and I made my own regular nose from some steel plate in about an hour. Works like a dream and throws the shavings the right direction unlike a 45 LOL. Anyway, it is worth considering.

363758From this to this. 363759

YMMV,

Brent Parkin
Regina, SK
Canada eh!

[Mike Allen1010]

Hi Hasim

First clamp a wooden fence across the board. It needs to be 1/4" high (from memory) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/LV%20planes/Large%20Plow/1a_zpsrpr7hvtx.jpg

Note that the plough is using the second skate. Both skates have a nicker, which is set to the outside of the blade (choose the width of blade you want). Set the depth stop (which is a real beauty!). Plane away ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/LV%20planes/Large%20Plow/3a_zpsesiyc8xx.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, I gotta say making clean, cross grained dadoes like that referencing off a simple fence is super attractive and practical for me.

I have a 1970s era Record plow plane and it's really finicky to set up so the knickers are aligned with iron edges. Additionally the fence doesn't secure parallel to the blade/skates without tedious measuring the front and back edge of the fence and adjusting etc. FWIW, if you're interested in shooting your own moldings, plowing accurate, consistent grooves that your hollow/round molding planes can reference off of makes life a lot easier.

A new plow plane is definitely on my wish list, I just don't know if whether the LV small or large plane would fit my needs best. Unlike the LV small plow, doesn't the large plow allow for the use of bead and cove irons? If yes, that's functionality I would definitely be willing to pay for.

I have immense respect for those who are able to use the Stanley 45/55 planes to do similar work. As much as I enjoy vintage hand tools, I'm not nearly smart enough to figure out how to make that happen.

Great thread – look forward to comments and feedback from my fellow Creekers who have first-hand experience.

All the best, Mike,

[Jim Koepke]

Additionally the fence doesn't secure parallel to the blade/skates without tedious measuring the front and back edge of the fence and adjusting etc.

My easy solution for this is wooden gauge blocks in various sizes. Mine are made in 3/8 X 3/4", 7/16 X 7/8" & 1/2 X 1". I also have some wooden 'feeler' gauges that can be used to set the fence, skate and depth stops.

These make set up a lot easier.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I bought a set of brass gauge blocks through 1/2" but, they were missing 1/8" and 5/16".
I made wooden ones for those sizes. The point is, they are easy to make.You can make a
complete set and also make other sizes if you need them.

[steven c newman]

Both the 45 and the 55 came with instruction booklets, showing how to set up and use them.

Took me about a week of just playing around with my #45....the only thing I haven't tried is the slitter. The other six "planes" took very little work to get used to them..

As for dados....either the 45 with a batten OR one of the Stanley #39s will do the same dado.....