Small turnings and choking hazard

[Richard Dooling]

I may have the opportunity to sell sell some smaller pieces that while not toys, would be attractive to children. I'm concerned about right sizing for safety and of course possible liability.

There are choke testing tubes but some people seem to feel that the standard should be more stringent. Maybe this is just too litigious an environment for the small producer?

Any thoughts or guidance would be appreciated.

[Ted Reischl]

Put your mind at ease, contact a lawyer, tell him what you are going to sell and then listen to what he says. A lot of lawyers I know will answer your question without even charging you. Further, do not pay any attention to what someone on here might tell you, the fact is, unless they are a lawyer, and are willing to disclose their name, it is just a bunch of guessing and playing attorney on the internet.

[Reed Gray]

A 'rule' I heard from another turner was that anything that fits down inside a toilet paper tube is too small and presents a choking hazard. No idea how accurate that is...

robo hippy

[Mel Fulks]

It would be more accurate if the tp cardboard tubes had one standard size.

[Len Mullin]

If you're not making or selling it as a toy, then I'd have to think you'd be safe. Wouldn't it be up to the person who bought it, be responsible for who gets their hands on it? I'm just thinking out loud here, but there's got to be some way to safely make something that is small?
Len

[Harold Balzonia]

There are thousands of people out there selling rings and jewelry and spinny tops made from wood... any kid could eat those. It doesn't seem to stop any of those sellers. I've sold a lot of rings and never has this thought crossed my mind.

Maybe it should have but it hasn't.

[John Keeton]

Follow Ted's advice - from a retired attorney.

[David DeCristoforo]

1.75" is the minimum size for any object where a choking hazard is the concern.

[Art Mann]

Emergency! Emergency! Call 911. Grapes are a choking hazard.;)

[Richard Dooling]

Thanks for everyone's responses. I had a feeling there would be no simple answer. I'm trying to figure out now if it's even worth pursuing this given the nature of lawsuits today.

I should have made clear in my original post that I am not seeking binding legal advice as much as practical advice and personal experience. For instance I know many people produce things like finials that do not meet the child choking hazard recommendations. These items are not meant for children but could end up in the hands or mouths of children. Do you feel that this distinction protects you? Do you include a "This is not a toy . . ." statement on your labels? Every standard I've found is directed at products intended for children whereas mine is a decorative ornament. I sold wine stoppers the are definitely in the choking hazard size range but are not meant to be used by children outside Napa valley.:o

I'm looking into legal advice but don't have much hope that it will be free. I'm mostly retired but do some small things like web site help. I also sell the occasional painting or turning and I generally expect compensation, so I expect to compensate an attorney as well. Meanwhile I know my concern isn't unique or unusual so I expect there is good advice to be had regarding the choking issue in general if not my product in particular.

I'm trying to find a site that also had recommended labels for hazards by age although most labels are for children under 3.

https://www.cpsc.gov/Business--Manufacturing/Business-Education/Business-Guidance/Small-Parts-for-Toys-and-Childrens-Products (https://www.cpsc.gov/Business--Manufacturing/Business-Education/Business-Guidance/Small-Parts-for-Toys-and-Childrens-Products)

Choke test cylinder (https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Small-Object-Choking-Tester/dp/B0062TNEOC)

David, I've seen this guidance and the 1.75" standard it seems is mostly for balls. (http://childsafetycentral.com/toy-choking-hazards.html)

[John K Jordan]

Emergency! Emergency! Call 911. Grapes are a choking hazard.;)

One grandson here has choked on grapes. We have to cut them in half or less.

JKJ

[Art Mann]

Right! In my view, it is the responsibility of parents (or grandparents) to look after their children so they don't choke. If grapes weren't in widespread use, they would probably already have been banned.

[Ted Reischl]

Like I said, GO SEE AN ATTORNEY. Quit "guessing" about you can and cannot do.

But, instead of "guessing" and relying on the opinions of others, mine included.....GO SEE AN ATTORNEY.

Attorneys for the most part are good people contrary to what you see on TV and read on the internet. If you establish a relationship with one it will yield rewards in the future. And no, like I said, I am not an attorney.

Are you the type of person that when something is hurting you refuse to go see a doctor? You are worrying about this issue and have decided you will not seek legal help, instead you log onto the internet to listen to every Joe Blow's worthless opinion. Why wouldn't you seek a definitive legal opinion? Having more fun worrying about it?

How would you know if it is "worth" pursuing since you are not even willing to talk to an attorney to put your mind at ease? How do you make a decision? What? You going to think "Oh, well, it could PROBABLY get me in legal trouble, so there, I have my answer!" Sounds to me like you really do not want to do it, you are creating a handy excuse. Why do you waste everyone's time with this nonsense?

What is "looking into seeking legal counsel"???? You call up an attorney's office. There is no "looking into". They are in the phone book.

Here is what you do, dial the number....

ring:::ring:::: Hello, Stabem & Slamum....may I help you?

Yes, I am seeking some legal advice on a small matter....

Please hold....

Hello, Attorney Grabem, how may I help you?

Hi, I am thinking of making small widgets that are used for .......they are not a child's toy nor will they be marketed as one...should I get insurance to protect in case of a personal injury lawsuit involving a child?

Attorney....(one of two things happen here, he either tells you, no, do not worry, and thanks for calling, OR, he sets up an appointment to double check. A lot of attorneys these days will do that first appt for free.

So just do it and quit whinging about it.

[David E Keller]

I'll humbly disagree with the advice to seek the opinion of an attorney for the simple reason that it will be just that... an opinion. Unless you can find an attorney that will indemnify you against choking related claims(you will not), the legal opinion will not prevent legal action against you. Why waste your time and potentially your money?

I respect your concerns about potential hazards, and I agree with David D about the 1.75" or greater being a reasonable threshold.

[Richard Dooling]

Ted I'm sorry you felt the need to be so uncivil in your response. You seem to be very angry. If you feel this thread is a waste of time then don't read it. Simple.

[Richard Dooling]

I'll humbly disagree with the advice to seek the opinion of an attorney for the simple reason that it will be just that... an opinion. Unless you can find an attorney that will indemnify you against choking related claims(you will not), the legal opinion will not prevent legal action against you. Why waste your time and potentially your money?

I respect your concerns about potential hazards, and I agree with David D about the 1.75" or greater being a reasonable threshold.

David, this is why I'm looking into "best practices" rather than assuming my only option is to pay$$ for advice that is not a guarantee. There is not much money to be made in this project but it's fun and people enjoy the ornaments. It's just a turned acorn ornament - no big deal.

In Turning Toys Richard Raffan shows a piece of wood with a 1.75" hole as a standard. He says that anything that goes through the hole "no matter how it's presented, poses a choking hazard." Seems like solid advice.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I believe you can also check with the US Consumer Product Safety Commission. Several (OK, many) years ago, my company at the time manufactured products that a child could potentially choke on (tho' not marketed to children). If memory serves, the US CPSC offered 'choke tubes' - - if a product would fit inside, then all the appropriate warnings and labels were required. Might be worth a read of their website?

Not an attorney, but with 5 in the immediate family, I've heard one or eighty-seven:rolleyes: times that anybody can sue you for anything, at any time. ...Might not prevail, but they can certainly file suit. 'Your' attorney can't stop such (should you consult with one). Best bet is to know, understand, and follow the relevant rules. How you get there is entirely up to you.

And best wishes for your endeavor.

[David L Morse]

If memory serves, the US CPSC offered 'choke tubes' - -

Good memory Malcolm.

This, from the Code of Federal Regulations, Chapter II, Subchapter C, Part 1501, Section 1501.4, might be of interest:
362478

[Richard Dooling]

Thanks.
These are cheap on Amazon but are built to the 1.25" standard

[Ted Reischl]

Ted I'm sorry you felt the need to be so uncivil in your response. You seem to be very angry. If you feel this thread is a waste of time then don't read it. Simple.

Ahhh, the ol' "you must be angry" routine. Hardly angry. Uncivil? Nope, just told you like it is. Here you sit asking for advice on an internet forum but you can get real advice from a professional. Does not make sense does it?

Now you have people playing attorney on the internet, qouting you law, telling you how X amount of people in their families are lawyers when all you really need to do is call a real attorney. Incredible.

I am going to take your advice and not bother with this thread anymore. When we have people saying that it is NOT a good idea to seek an attorney's advice on a legal matter because they will not "indemnify" the client I know I am reading pure garbage. The guy who posted that forgets a few little things in his infinite knowledge of attorneys. First, they are trained in the law. They can refer to case law to see how it has been interpreted. But you go right ahead, base your decision on what you hear on the internet. Good luck!!!!

[John Keeton]

The only real "guarantee" is good product liability insurance, but you won't like the cost. Yes, anyone can sue and winning is not a sure thing. But, merely defending such a suit can cause financial ruin.

An attorney qualified in this area can, in fact, provide you with guidelines that can at least minimize one's exposure.

[Malcolm McLeod]

...
Not an attorney, but with 5 in the immediate family, I've heard one or eighty-seven:rolleyes: times that anybody can sue you for anything, at any time. ...Might not prevail, but they can certainly file suit. 'Your' attorney can't stop such (should you consult with one). Best bet is to know, understand, and follow the relevant rules. How you get there is entirely up to you.
...
Ahhh, the ol' "personal responsibilty" routine. How could I have been so irresponsible?


...
Now you have people playing attorney on the internet, qouting you law, telling you how X amount of people in their families are lawyers when all you really need to do is call a real attorney. Incredible.
Pretty sure I didn't cite any laws. Anecdotes? ...maybe.


I am going to take your advice and not bother with this thread anymore.
Thank you ...speaking just for myself, of course!

[Richard Dooling]

Gosh Ted. I guess this means we aren't going steady anymore?

[David E Keller]

I didn't mean to convey that I had an infinite knowledge of attorneys or legal matters... nothing could be could be further from the truth. I only hoped to point out that an opinion from an attorney would offer little or no protection against litigation. I wouldn't begrudge anyone the opportunity to seek legal advice, but it should be seen for what it is... Advice.

While I will concede that attorneys are, in fact, 'trained in the law', I would argue that's a bit like saying that doctor's are 'trained in medicine'. Both are superficially true but fail to recognize the requisite specialization required in both fields. I don't take medical advice from someone just because they happen to have completed medical school, and I wouldn't take legal advice from someone just because they passed the bar exam. An opinion from an attorney who specializes in product liability? Sure, but I don't think I'd be likely to find one in my area... I suspect others might have similar difficulty finding such a specialist.

The orginal post was a question primarily about safety with legal exposure as a secondary component. Since the forum is a place to share opinions, I feel comfortable sharing mine regarding what I feel is safe. As it turns out, my thoughts were on the conservative side of things when considering the reference from the code of federal regulations above. Amazing what one can find on the internet with the help of a few friendly woodworkers.

[Michael Schneider]

Talk to a lawyer or make your own call. The truth is anyone can sue you for anything. I talked to my insurance agent, and for a very small fee, I am covered for up to 1 million dollar lawsuite. This covers any lawsuite. From snow on the sideway, car accident, ...

You might consider this.

Michael