biscuits in workbench frame, rails?

[Monte Milanuk]

Hello,

I was going thru a beginners book I picked up (Projects for your Workshop), and saw a section on building a workbench... the part that struck me as a little odd was the use of biscuits to align/join major portions of the leg frames and the rails that go from one set of legs to the other... there were some other things in there besides just biscuits (lag screws, bench bolts), so maybe the biscuits were just for alignment purposes? The book showed glueing them up along w/ using the bolts, so I'm a little fuzzy on that part.

Any comments on whether the biscuits would be strong enough for this kind of use? I thought normally some kind of mortise-n-tenon joint would be used?

TIA,

Monte

[Donnie Raines]

Biscuits do aid in alignment..so I could see that to an extent. But, I would think a mortise and tenon(also with a bolt or through tenon) would be the better choice.

[Tom Jones III]

I built my workbench when I was just starting out. The plan was from the Workbench Book. I used 2x4s for the aprons and top, 4x4 for the legs. The aprons were joined to the legs with 2 dowels. There was also a 1/4" dado in the back of the apron. I drilled a hole through the legs that matched the dado in the apron, then inserted a threaded rod through one leg, down the dado and through the far leg. Bolts on either end of the threaded rod made this an incredibly strong and stable bench. The bench is strong far beyond what my wood working skills of the time could ever have accomplished. Further, the bench was inexpensive, light weight but surprisingly stable and strong.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Monte, I would think I would want more than biscuits in a workbench frame. THey are most likely there only for allignment. I wouldn't bother with them, I would just pre-drill the holes. (I don't care for biscuits though!)

[John Miliunas]

While I know that I'll get some flak for this one, I'll throw my .02 out there. Biscuits are NOT just for alignment. Contrary to what many folks may say, a well-tuned biscuit jointer and quality biscuits do also add to the integrity of a glue-up, doing more than just aiding alignment.:) BUT, that notwithstanding, in the case of a workbench, I am a firm believer in M/T (floating tenon, true M/T, pegged, etc.) in conjunction with mechanical fasteners. With climatic shifts, you're bound to run into periods, where joints may get a bit "sloppier" and, if you don't have a means for tightening them, those joints will just get worse in time. :o That being the case, I think for your project, I would probably opt for strength AND alignment by using floating tenons or even dowels, especially if the joints will be supplemented with mechanical means. Just MHO...:) :cool:

[Donnie Raines]

While I know that I'll get some flak for this one, I'll throw my .02 out there. Biscuits are NOT just for alignment. Contrary to what many folks may say, a well-tuned biscuit jointer and quality biscuits do also add to the integrity of a glue-up, doing more than just aiding alignment.:) With climatic shifts, you're bound to run into periods, where joints may get a bit "sloppier" and, if you don't have a means for tightening them, those joints will just get worse in time. :o That being the case, I think for your project, I would probably opt for strength AND alignment by using floating tenons or even dowels, especially if the joints will be supplemented with mechanical means. Just MHO...:) :cool:

I was going to jump all over you until you stated, "BUT, that notwithstanding, in the case of a workbench, I am a firm believer in M/T (floating tenon, true M/T, pegged, etc.) in conjunction with mechanical fasteners."

.......:D :D :p :cool:

[John Miliunas]

I was going to jump all over you until you stated, "BUT, that notwithstanding, in the case of a workbench, I am a firm believer in M/T (floating tenon, true M/T, pegged, etc.) in conjunction with mechanical fasteners."

.......:D :D :p :cool:

Thanks, Donnie! Appreciate that!:D :cool:

[Donnie Raines]

Thanks, Donnie! Appreciate that!:D :cool:

When I first got into WW...I made a bench useing biscuit joinery...thinking this was some hi-tech way of building it(also thinking I was on to something no one had ever done before...use biscuits for something other then joining boards together). The second or thrid time I stood on the bench it collapsed below me(big surprise looking back at it)......:rolleyes:

[Jeff Sudmeier]

When I first got into WW...I made a bench useing biscuit joinery...thinking this was some hi-tech way of building it(also thinking I was on to something no one had ever done before...use biscuits for something other then joining boards together). The second or thrid time I stood on the bench it collapsed below me(big surprise looking back at it)......:rolleyes:

Did you have to change your shorts?!?!? :rolleyes::D:eek::confused: I know i would have.

[Donnie Raines]

Did you have to change your shorts?!?!? :rolleyes::D:eek::confused: I know i would have.

Nope...it was'nt to far of a fall. Other then my ego...I was fine...:cool:

[Tim Sproul]

When I first got into WW...I made a bench useing biscuit joinery................. The second or thrid time I stood on the bench it collapsed below me......


I highlighted what I think is the key part in red.

I have an assembly table where I've joined 3x3 pine together to make the 'frame' of the table base. I stand on it regularly since the table is under my attic access. I'm not goliath but I'm also no 100# lightweight either.


Biscuits were originally made for joining sheetgood cabinetry. IIRC, they originate from Europe and were specific for particleboard construction. Despite what others think....and I disagree with several very good woodworkers on this (I'm not in the 'very good woodworker' category myself so take it for what it's worth).....I've found biscuits to have plenty of structural strength when used properly. In essence, they are a loose stub tenon. I will agree that biscuit joinery may not be suitable for everyone nor for all joinery situations......so we're all able to disagree on their use. I'd very much disagree with statements that biscuit joinery cannot be used in load bearing applications like cabinets or table frames or such.

[John Miliunas]

I highlighted what I think is the key part in red.

I have an assembly table where I've joined 3x3 pine together to make the 'frame' of the table base. I stand on it regularly since the table is under my attic access. I'm not goliath but I'm also no 100# lightweight either.


Biscuits were originally made for joining sheetgood cabinetry. IIRC, they originate from Europe and were specific for particleboard construction. Despite what others think....and I disagree with several very good woodworkers on this (I'm not in the 'very good woodworker' category myself so take it for what it's worth).....I've found biscuits to have plenty of structural strength when used properly. In essence, they are a loose stub tenon. I will agree that biscuit joinery may not be suitable for everyone nor for all joinery situations......so we're all able to disagree on their use. I'd very much disagree with statements that biscuit joinery cannot be used in load bearing applications like cabinets or table frames or such.

Tim, I for one, don't disagree with your statements, including the "load bearing" part. I guess my outlook on it is, they will most probably work just fine, even in load bearing situations, as long as those loads are fairly static. In the case of a workbench, it's very often not just simple downward pressure we're talking about. There's a very certain amount of lateral force and flex going on. Although the biscuits are akin to loose tenons, IMHO, the depth of such a "tenon" limits the usefulness in terms of varying loads, especially those associated with something like WW bench. Don't get me wrong; I too support the school of thought that biscuits add to the strength of many joints and have even upgraded my biscuit jointer to a Makita and purchased some good biscuits (Lamello) to that end. In this instance, though, I still think true loose or through tenons and lags screws/through bolts are called for on the main support joints. Just my .02...:) :cool:

[Donnie Raines]

I guess the issue then is what the limit should be when factoring in the amount of load biscuit joinery can support....gieven said application. Which would hold up to larger degrees of racking and shifting? Which one can be knocked down and reassembled if needed? And of coarse, which one can carry the larger burden of weight? If we were talking about a blanket chest or adding support to some mitred corners...or of coarse glueing up a top(keeping in mind that in this example, you have a long grain to long grain joint...they dont get to much stronger then this). I would have say the M/T takes the cake. Will biscuit joinery work....sure it will!! But if your going to do it...do it right the first time.

In saying that...I guess one could reinforce the joint with some type of bracing. Tha would really stiffen up the corner and elimanate a larger wty of racking and shifting.

[Monte Milanuk]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I'm a beginner but I've been looking at various plans, websites, and books on workbenches for a while now (just need to get off my duff and build one, I guess). The use of the biscuits was something I hadn't seen before and seemed a little odd at first, but then I got to wondering if they really would work or not. From the looks of the overall bench design, it's not really one for 'rough-to-ready' type stock preparation w/ nothing but hand tools, more of a basic work bench with one front vise, a planing stop, and not much even in the way of dog holes. Not really what I'm looking for anyways, so I guess I'll skip that project in the book and just file away in memory any other interesting tidbits that might be in that section of the book.

Thanks,

Monte

[Tim Sproul]

From the looks of the overall bench design, it's not really one for 'rough-to-ready' type stock preparation w/ nothing but hand tools, more of a basic work bench with one front vise, a planing stop, and not much even in the way of dog holes. Not really what I'm looking for anyways,

Monte,

I get the feeling that you're unsure what you're wanting/needing in a workbench. If so, I'd suggest you cobble one together by screwing a bunch of 2x lumber together for the frame and throwing a couple sheets of 3/4 ply on top. Use it. Adapt it. Beat on it. Kick it. Burn it. Curse at it. You'll have a much better idea what you want after that and you'll have gotten more than your money's worth.

[Monte Milanuk]

Tim,

To a large degree, you're right... I'm not entirely sure if I want to do more hand tool or more power tool work, and have been dithering over what would be more beneficial for one or the other. I figure I've got at least a couple more workbenches to go. Workbench 1.0 was a miserable failure, and got recycled into workbench 1.1. Both are more of a utility type bench, partly because lack of planning made mounting any sort of woodworking vise very very difficult. I'm trying to make workbench 2.0 a little more suitable for woodworking in general, but am trying to get a handle on some of the details like height, width, etc. that I want to use... some of those things that aren't quite as easy to fix if I go too far astray.

Thanks,

Monte

[Tim Sproul]

I'm trying to make workbench 2.0 a little more suitable for woodworking in general, but am trying to get a handle on some of the details like height, width, etc. that I want to use..

Therein lies your difficulty. A workbench is a tool. Like a hand plane. No one tool does it all. Hence....we have band saws and table saws and radial arm saw and power chop saws to name some. Same goes for a workbench. A workbench that is well-suited for assembly and finishing is ill-suited for joinery.

One well-suited for milling stock 4-square may not be so good for power tool joinery. Etc....

Other examples?

Brace and push drill. The brace is great for using with augers....while the push drill gives you the finesse and reduced speed required of small bits.

Impact driver and drill. The drill excels at boring holes....while the impact driver excels at driving screws. The drill can also drive screws...but the impact driver does the job oh-so-much-better. Similarily, the impact driver can bore 1/8 inch holes...but the drill does that job oh-so-much-better.

A 'jack-of-all-trades' workbench is bound to be disappointing frequently.....

[Monte Milanuk]

True. Life is full of compromises. I'll just have to make do as best I can, I guess.

Thanks,

Monte

[Gene Collison]

I think the plate joiner as designed by Lamello and used with Lamello biscuits is a useful joinery tool with good joint strength. The clones really don't do justice to the process with the exception of the Makita when used with Lamello biscuits. The biscuits from the home centers are delaminated as purchased with random thicknesses throughout the container. How these can even be used for alignment when they flop around in the slot has me baffled. That's simply not what the tool was meant to be for either joint strength or alignment. Most of the available tools have enough slop to degrade the joint severely. I know they swell up but too late. I think this may be where the bad rap on plate joiners comes from. Lamello cuts the slots with .001 and the biscuits go in with a hard push. They are really not much different than a small floating tenon or a stub tenon. Quite useful actually for cabinet work etc.:)

Gene

[Alan Turner]

Gene,
Interesting comment. Where are these biscuits obtainable?

[Gene Collison]

Gene,
Interesting comment. Where are these biscuits obtainable?

Hi Alan,

You can buy them from Amazon Tool crib, a Lamello dealer, ebay or direct from Colonial Saw. The process comes into it's own when used with a slop free tool. Then you end up with a snug fit or sometimes even have to tap them in with a small mallet. Here is the link.

http://csaw.com/lamello/index.html

Gene