LV "Vesper-lite" double square?

[Patrick Chase]

Out of curiosity has anybody tried this double-square: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=72730&cat=1,42936,42941&ap=1

It looks like a cost-reduced version of the Vesper, which makes it interesting even though I have the Vesper. The main cost reductions seem to be:

1. Body made of SS instead of hardened O1. It won't wear as well as the Vesper, but it should be loads more durable (and therefore dimensionally stable) than cast iron, and also rust-resistant.

2. No rotation stop in the locking mechanism. This is a very nifty feature on the Vesper.

3. Lower precision. 0.003" over the length for the LV, vs ~0.0005" on my sample of the Vesper. To be fair LV's marking tools usually beat their specs by a fair margin, and I haven't seen a spec for the Vesper so I don't know how typical my sample is. Also 0.001 in/in is BS 939 class B, which is pretty typical for modestly priced squares.

All in all it looks like a really nice everyday tool.

Anticipating an obvious comment/criticism: That basic design has been around for ever other than the rotation stop, so it's not like LV is knocking Vesper off

[Prashun Patel]

I have one and like it. I got it to check square for pins and tails, but that's not so much an issue these days; I've cut so many BAD dovetails and tenons my eye has gotten a lot better.

I do find its smallish size less desirable for marking than larger cousins; it doesn't register and hold steady as comfortably.

It is still my go-to for small drawers and boxes these days - but perhaps that's just because I own one...

[Patrick Chase]

I have one and like it. I got it to check square for pins and tails, but that's not so much an issue these days; I've cut so many BAD dovetails and tenons my eye has gotten a lot better.

I do find its smallish size less desirable for marking than larger cousins; it doesn't register and hold steady as comfortably.

It is still my go-to for small drawers and boxes these days - but perhaps that's just because I own one...

Thanks! I have a bunch of bigger squares and would only use something like this for small work.

[Megan Fitzpatrick]

I do, and it's a good tool for the price – though I have some quibbles. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools/lee-valley-small-double-square-2

[Patrick Chase]

I do, and it's a good tool for the price – though I have some quibbles. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools/lee-valley-small-double-square-2

Thanks Megan, that basically confirms everything I expected (or suspected).

BTW the Die Marker's Square that you describe L-N as selling is a Starrett 453A. I like the 457C (http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/457c), but now we're getting into eye-wateringly expensive stuff (that even I don't own).

I also find it hilarious that L-N sells the Starrett master squares (flat and square to 0.0001" per 6") rather than the standard "machinist-grade" ones (0.0002" per 6"). Obviously that extra tenth of a mil will make a huge difference to your woodworking :-).

[Jim Koepke]

My heart coveted the LV square when the catalog arrived in the mail.

Being a bit on the frugal side at times my desire changed to inspiration.

Bought some flat brass strips and cobbled together some scrap rosewood and a ruler a previous owner had cut and made my own:

362062

The blade is fixed, but is good enough for my work.

Though sometimes my dreams still wonder into the world of the LV squares…

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

My heart coveted the LV square when the catalog arrived in the mail.

Being a bit on the frugal side at times my desire changed to inspiration.

Bought some flat brass strips and cobbled together some scrap rosewood and a ruler a previous owner had cut and made my own:

Wow, that looks like a really efficient solution for things like checking mortises for square, and elegantly executed. Nice!



Though sometimes my dreams still wonder into the world of the LV squares…


Don't do it, it's a slippery slope. LV, then Starrett, then Vesper, then rock bottom. Of course if you're *really* depraved then you could also work Woodpecker and BCTW in there somewhere.

[Jim Koepke]

Wow, that looks like a really efficient solution for things like checking mortises for square, and elegantly executed. Nice!



Don't do it, it's a slippery slope. LV, then Starrett, then Vesper, then rock bottom. Of course if you're *really* depraved then you could also work Woodpecker and BCTW in there somewhere.

Thanks for the kind words.

BCTW is a temptingly short drive down the highway.

To avoid temptation I haven't even Googled the address. There is likely also a very tempting brew pub right across the way.

jtk

[george wilson]

I have a Vesper die maker's square. It is a very well made tool,except everything Chris makes (to my knowledge) is graduated in metric. I've encouraged him to do inches on tools he sells here. Maybe he does,and I'm not aware of it yet. Haven't had Chris here at my house for a few years.

If the LV stainless steel version is hardened(there are MANY stainless steels!) the LV version should be just fine for wear,and last several life times. The little square is not something you're going to be using all of the time anyway. And,I DO like the INCH grads on the LV square.

I didn't know that the Vesper square cost that much ! We did several trades when Chris was here. Money was not involved.

[Mike Henderson]

I have one of the LV squares and it works fine. I prefer the Sterling Tool Works version (http://www.sterlingtoolworks.com/dovetail-square/). I've never used or seen the Vesper square. One thing about the Sterling is that you can buy just the blade if you already have a double square and save a bit of money.

One nice thing about the LV version is that it comes in a box for storage. The thin end of the rule can be bent if you're not careful. I made a box for my three from Sterling tool works. I teach so I have a few of these.

Mike

[I just went and looked at the Vesper web site - $200+ for one of his squares:eek: (depending on which one you choose). The Sterling Tool Works blade to be added to an existing double square is $25. And you can get the whole thing for $60. After using the Sterling Tool Works blade in an existing double square I can't imagine what advantages the Vesper would have that would make it worth that much more money.]

[lowell holmes]

Rats!

I have a 4" double square, but I can't find it. I know I am the only one to do stuff like this. :confused:

[Bill Houghton]

Rats!

I have a 4" double square, but I can't find it. I know I am the only one to do stuff like this. :confused:
There's only one solution: buy another one. When you bring it into the shop, your original one, concluding that you've brought a friend for it to play with, will come out of its hiding place.

[Mike Henderson]

There's only one solution: buy another one. When you bring it into the shop, your original one, concluding that you've brought a friend for it to play with, will come out of its hiding place.

Yeah, I don't even know how many double squares I have. At least 10, probably more - LV, Mitutoyo, iGauging and PEC - several of each.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

From left to right: Vesper double square, Starrett double square, Moore and Wright double square ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Squares1_zpsnqxihu0h.jpg

The Vesper comes with three blades, the Starrett with two, and the Moore and Wright with three. I purchased the M&W at a bootsale for $30!

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Squares2_zpsdnbjkxoi.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

I have a Vesper die maker's square. It is a very well made tool,except everything Chris makes (to my knowledge) is graduated in metric. I've encouraged him to do inches on tools he sells here. Maybe he does,and I'm not aware of it yet.

He makes the double square in Imperial units, and TFWW sells (https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-DOUB.XX/Vesper_Double_Square_with_Imperial_or_Metric_Blade s) it. As you say it isn't cheap, but it's an extremely good tool.

[Simon MacGowen]

I have one of the LV squares and it works fine. I prefer the Sterling Tool Works version (http://www.sterlingtoolworks.com/dovetail-square/). I've never used or seen the Vesper square. One thing about the Sterling is that you can buy just the blade if you already have a double square and save a bit of money.

One nice thing about the LV version is that it comes in a box for storage. The thin end of the rule can be bent if you're not careful. I made a box for my three from Sterling tool works. I teach so I have a few of these.

Mike

[I just went and looked at the Vesper web site - $200+ for one of his squares:eek: (depending on which one you choose). The Sterling Tool Works blade to be added to an existing double square is $25. And you can get the whole thing for $60. After using the Sterling Tool Works blade in an existing double square I can't imagine what advantages the Vesper would have that would make it worth that much more money.]

I have handled both (Sterling vs LV) and for the small price difference, one should definitely go for the Sterling square, because its narrow blade is narrower and longer than LV's which can be critical for very narrow dovetail work.

The much more expensive Vesper square, like planes costing $3,000 a piece, won't make you a better woodworker or your work finer. But it is a boutique tool and it is to be had not just for functional reasons and hence shouldn't be judged on that count alone. I have seen woodworkers with fancy and expensive marking tools and their work; suffice to say that the two have no cause & effect relationships (and that applies to most other hand tools).

Simon

[Ted Phillips]

I have the Sterling square, and it is a dandy. Chris makes some very high-quality tools. Plus...I like to support local family-owned businesses. :cool:

The Vesper tools are aspirational for me - one day I might be able to benefit from his level of accuracy!

TedP

[Patrick Chase]

I have the Sterling square, and it is a dandy. Chris makes some very high-quality tools. Plus...I like to support local family-owned businesses. :cool:

The Vesper tools are aspirational for me - one day I might be able to benefit from his level of accuracy!

TedP

I think I mentioned this somewhere else: My Vesper double square is flat and square to within 0.0005" over its 6" length, when compared to my Starrett 55-6 (bevel edged) master square.

That's a very good performance for *any* sliding square, and positively amazing when you consider that the head is only 15 mm wide. The machined lands on the head therefore have to be square to within 0.00005" to achieve that, which is why I suspect I may have a "lucky copy".

[Mark Maleski]

I have a Vesper die maker's square. It is a very well made tool,except everything Chris makes (to my knowledge) is graduated in metric. ...

I have a Vesper bevel gauge, and it's not graduated in metric. :p

[george wilson]

Coming at me from a new angle?

[lowell holmes]

I just ordered one.

[george wilson]

Lowell: Angling for compliments?:)

[Patrick Chase]

Lowell: Angling for compliments?:)

Now you're just being obtuse.

[lowell holmes]

Lowell: Angling for compliments?:)

Actually, just bragging.

I don't know why I bought it. I just wanted it.

[george wilson]

I have done that plenty of times.

[Jim Koepke]

Actually, just bragging.

I don't know why I bought it. I just wanted it.

My shop is half full of things like that.

jtk

[george wilson]

So is my large shop (30' x 40' with 16' x22' original garage I had the large building added on to). But,it is not loaded with repeats of the same tool. A lot of carving tools,but not the same sizes,etc..

We had a machine dealer here for many years. He sold things often for many times less than they cost. Mostly machinist's tools and machinery,but at times great woodworking tools and machinery that I'd loved to have bought,but just had no more space. I saw wonderful old(but well cared for) Boice Crane table saws and once even the TABLE SAW that Sears used to sell in the 50's and 60's.Not that it was a great machine,but very nostalgic for me as the Sears catalog was the most read book in the house when I was a young teenager in Alaska,longing to have those things,but not a chance in the World of having them,or of having a shop to put them in.

I bought stuff there for about 30 years. Now he's moved so he's about 120 miles away. Just too far to drive ON THE CHANCE that I'd get something great. Not the case most times! He even started out here in Williamsburg.

Just as well anyway. I don't have the money coming in like I did in those many years I repaired and made things for my wealthy customer. Now she has filled her LARGE house with too much stuff! And,now that her husband is dead,she just game fishes on her yacht. She even has her own captain. And,I'm just plain worn out in several joints anyway. Surgery soon. I'm sure it is the same story for many of us old timers: now that we have our dream shop,we're too worn out to do much! The hard labor I had to do as a kid has caught up with me.

[lowell holmes]

George,

You have lived in two of my favorite places to visit, Alaska and Williamsburg.
I live in Galveston County and near the Manned Spacecraft Center at NASA.

I've had several neighbors that work or worked there. We see the retired orbiter spacecraft mounted on a 747
and think nothing about it.

Were you in Alaska as an adult?