Back saw vs Bow saw (frame saw)

[Sean Reilly]

I have an old LN 16" thin plate tenon saw that has a really bad "S" curve in it. So I was thinking of replacing it with a Bad Axe 16" tenon saw, but then I noticed that blackburn tools http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/danish-frame-saw-parts/index.html was offering a new 24" frame saw (bow saw). From what I've read/seen from supporters of this saw, they say it is a little lighter than the back saw despite being longer, it also has a more agressive tooth configuration so it cuts faster. I have never tried a bow saw so was wondering if anyone here has and if they could do a comparison of the two. the Bad Axe saw will run just below $400 while to bow saw is $40.

[Wallace Brooks]

Or, you can send the saw in for a tuneup.

[Mark AJ Allen]

I would say that unless you are looking for a completely new method of work and have a good understanding why you want to change, you should stick to what you know. Each have their pros and cons; it's hard to say which of those are influential to you. You obviously compare the price, as any prudent consumer does.

I immediately struck them from my list when looking into choosing a sawing work method. They are large and IMO, have a more significant skill threshold for proper, good use. A backsaw is a dumb tool; it just goes where you tell it with your hand. Not so much frame saws. Much less specialized and therefore, more user input to get them to do various things equally well. I also don't know how many sizes, etc ... you can get away with a minimal kit; I know for joinery, I can get away with 3 backsaws + one large rip for rough cuts. Not sure what the 'spread' is for frame saws.

Bottomline: if it's just $40, get one, build it and try it out. That's a low risk proposition.

[Patrick Chase]

I have an old LN 16" thin plate tenon saw that has a really bad "S" curve in it. So I was thinking of replacing it with a Bad Axe 16" tenon saw, but then I noticed that blackburn tools http://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/danish-frame-saw-parts/index.html was offering a new 24" frame saw (bow saw). From what I've read/seen from supporters of this saw, they say it is a little lighter than the back saw despite being longer, it also has a more agressive tooth configuration so it cuts faster. I have never tried a bow saw so was wondering if anyone here has and if they could do a comparison of the two. the Bad Axe saw will run just below $400 while to bow saw is $40.

You may want to search the archives.

A few remarks:

1. Framesaws and bowsaws are not the same thing. A framesaw (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_saw) has the blade running down the middle of a rectangular box frame, such that both long sides of the box are in compression and the blade in tension. A bowsaw (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/bowsaw_basics) has a blade running down one side of an H-shaped frame, and a tensioning bar or twine on the opposite side. The center member of the "H" is under compression.

2. Preference is a big factor. Backsaws, bowsaws handle very differently, and different people have different preferences between the two. On a related note, bow- and backsaws are associated with different woodworking traditions (Continental vs English/American).

3. The Blackburn is a kit (blade and HW) with an unsharpened blade. You still need to build the frame and assemble everything, and also sharpen the blade. The Bad Axe is a complete saw, finished and tuned to perfection by Mark Harrell. If you paid somebody to make and tune a framesaw to similar standards it would cost a lot more than $40. This kit (http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/kpfs.php) might be a more apples-to-apples comparison, though even that isn't a complete saw.

4. Cut speed depends a lot on the blade and toothing, so you need to make sure to compare apples to apples in that regard.

5. Both frame- and bowsaws can cut to effectively unlimited depth (since the blade can be rotated out of the plane of the frame) while backsaws are always limited by the tooth->spine distance.

FWIW I use bow- and backsaws for various stuff. I prefer the feel of backsaws, but there are times when the ability to rotate the frame/back out of the way is really handy. I have no significant experience with framesaws - hopefully somebody like George will comment about that.

[Mike Allen1010]

Good question; when I started woodworking I was an avid reader of Tage Fried's books (I'm sure I probably spelled that wrong) and he is a strong advocate of the bow saw.


I've built several bow saws both rip and crosscut and my experience is it's more difficult to get them to cut straight than a back saw. I particularly had high hopes that the 5 PPI bow saw would be good for resawing, but I rarely use it now as I have real trouble getting it to track straight. The one bow saw I do use is a smaller 11 PPI ripsaw that works great for gang cutting dovetail pins in thick stock.


All the best, Mike

[lowell holmes]

I have all of the above including a bow saw I made. I bought a kit on line from Tools for Working Wood. It does an excellent job. I also have several back saws. They also do an excellent job.
I made a backsaw from a Ron Bontz kit. It also does an excellent job. It is a 16X 4 saw plate and I made it rip cut using curly maple for the handle.
I am completely satisfied withboth saws. I suggest two kits, one of each.

[Patrick Chase]

Good question; when I started woodworking I was an avid reader of Tage Fried's books (I'm sure I probably spelled that wrong) and he is a strong advocate of the bow saw.

Tage Frid.



I've built several bow saws both rip and crosscut and my experience is it's more difficult to get them to cut straight than a back saw. I particularly had high hopes that the 5 PPI bow saw would be good for resawing, but I rarely use it now as I have real trouble getting it to track straight. The one bow saw I do use is a smaller 11 PPI ripsaw that works great for gang cutting dovetail pins in thick stock.


This sounds more like a sharpening or tuning issue than anything. Granted a bowsaw will always be able to turn a bit faster, because the blade is shorter and can rotate more in the kerf if you twist it, but there's no reason why the tracking should be inherently worse provided you aren't *trying* to make it pivot.

The only bowsaw I've really ever had trouble with was the one that came with a Nobex miter box, and that turned out to be a sharpening issue (the toothline had burring that gave one side more set than the other).

[Jim Koepke]

I have an old LN 16" thin plate tenon saw that has a really bad "S" curve in it.

Have you tried to remove the curve from the saw plate?

Here is an old post that might help:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103313-How-to-straighten-bent-saw-blades

It is one of many great links in the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805-Neanderthal-wisdom-FAQs

jtk

[Ron Bontz]

Just a nickels worth. Save your self some money and frustration. If it is the 16" x 4" under spine x 0.020" plate, just send the saw back to it's maker and have them go over it. Tune it/repair it, etc. They are pretty good about standing behind their product. Thin plate saws, regardless of the type of back used, tend to have issues. Too lengthy a subject to get into. Best wishes.

[Kees Heiden]

And ask them to cut of an inch from that 4" height at the same time. All that height on a thin blade is not really such a great idea.

[William Fretwell]

I use my bow saw often. It cuts a straight line quickly. You can drill a hole and cut a large through mortise with it, no back saw can do that!
I lent it to a guy building a deck once after he blew up his chop saw so he could continue while it was repaired. He and three others tried but could not cut a straight line. I repeatedly showed them but for some reason it eluded them.
I plan to build a smaller one. You should try them.

[Patrick Chase]

And ask them to cut of an inch from that 4" height at the same time. All that height on a thin blade is not really such a great idea.

Indeed. Does anybody happen to know whether that saw was a carryover from Independence, or something L-N added in a manic fit of "Keeping up with the Dozukis"? I suspect the latter, but am curious.

(in case it isn't obvious, I'm not a fan of super-thin plates on Western backsaws. They're just not the right platform for that IMO)

[lowell holmes]

I cut dove tails and m&t joints with a dove tail saw and cut curves and shapes with my bow saw. I do not see them as interchangeable.
And, I cut dimension lumber with my 10 pt. Disston D7.

[lowell holmes]

Having an early Lee Nielsen dove tail and two Lee Nielsen carcass saws, they are the leaders, not keep uppers. I have absolutely no reason to cut height from their saws.

[Pat Barry]

in case it isn't obvious, I'm not a fan of super-thin plates on Western backsaws. They're just not the right platform for that IMO
What do you consider super-thin? 0.020"? anything less than that?

[steven c newman]

Maybe we ought to repost a video from GE Hong's site.....and see how the fellow made a few of those frame saws? Building, sharpening, and using one..all in one or two "shows". Must work for him...he has almost 50 different ones sitting around in his shop....

Nah....never happen here....not a Brand Name tool maker....

[Patrick Chase]

What do you consider super-thin? 0.020"? anything less than that?

It depends on the saw. The OP's saw is a 16" long rip (tenon) saw with 4" of sawplate under the spine. I think that 0.020" is pretty thin for that size and application, and Ron seems to believe the same.

IMO the same plate thickness would be marginally more appropriate (though still on the thin side) for a similarly sized crosscut saw, would be pretty typical for a 12" x 2.75" carcase saw, and would be on the beefy side for a dovetail saw.

[William Fretwell]

Yes the dovetail saw won't do curves but the bow saw can do dovetails & tenons.

[Ron Bontz]

Indeed. Does anybody happen to know whether that saw was a carryover from Independence, or something L-N added in a manic fit of "Keeping up with the Dozukis"? I suspect the latter, but am curious.

(in case it isn't obvious, I'm not a fan of super-thin plates on Western backsaws. They're just not the right platform for that IMO)


Hi Pat. I agree.

[lowell holmes]

I have both saws. I do not consider the bow saw to be a good dovetail saw.
You can, but it is more awkward than my Lie Nielsen dove tail saw.

[Patrick Chase]

Having an early Lee Nielsen dove tail and two Lee Nielsen carcass saws, they are the leaders, not keep uppers. I have absolutely no reason to cut height from their saws.

Yep, buying out Independence Tool (Pete Taran and Patrick Leach's saw business) was as clear an act of industry trend-setting as you could possibly imagine. No "keeping up" or "catching up" there...

Seriously, you read what I wrote, right? I said "keeping up with the Dozukis", i.e. I was suggesting that they went thin with their sawplates in an effort to compete with the Japanese-style pull saws that have captured much of the market. Admittedly a Dozuki is for rather different applications than a tenon saw, so it wasn't a perfect joke...

[Patrick Chase]

I have both saws. I do not consider the bow saw to be a good dovetail saw.
You can, but it is more awkward than my Lie Nielsen dove tail saw.

This is a matter of habit and practice. You are used to doing dovetails with a backsaw, so anything else feels "wrong" to you.

I'm the same way, but I know and respect people who have the opposite experience and opinion. As always there's more than one way to do it.

[Pat Barry]

This is a matter of habit and practice. You are used to doing dovetails with a backsaw, so anything else feels "wrong" to you.

I'm the same way, but I know and respect people who have the opposite experience and opinion. As always there's more than one way to do it.
More than one way of course. I saw a guy using a metal cutting hacksaw - doesn't make it right though.

[Warren Mickley]

The high saw plates on tenon saws are relatively new. They started when it became fashionable to make heavy 18th century workbenches with large tenons. These large tenon saw are still advertised as essential for making a workbench. People have actually bought $300 saws so they could make a dozen tenons for their workbench.

A few decades ago we cut large tenons like that with a rip saw, not a back saw. Independence Tool started with dovetail saws not oversize tenon saws. Frank Klausz cut tenons with a bow saw, which was the standard for much of continental Europe for centuries. Two hundred years ago in England a tenon saw was used for crosscutting shoulders and a hand saw, not a back saw, was used for cutting cheeks.

The upshot is that these big back saws are wobbly, heavy and clumsy. They are designed and marketed for beginners.

[Michael J Evans]

The high saw plates on tenon saws are relatively new. They started when it became fashionable to make heavy 18th century workbenches with large tenons. These large tenon saw are still advertised as essential for making a workbench. People have actually bought $300 saws so they could make a dozen tenons for their workbench.

A few decades ago we cut large tenons like that with a rip saw, not a back saw. Independence Tool started with dovetail saws not oversize tenon saws. Frank Klausz cut tenons with a bow saw, which was the standard for much of continental Europe for centuries. Two hundred years ago in England a tenon saw was used for crosscutting shoulders and a hand saw, not a back saw, was used for cutting cheeks.

The upshot is that these big back saws are wobbly, heavy and clumsy. They are designed and marketed for beginners.


Maybe it was you or someone else who had stated in a previous thread that tenons were traditionally done with a rip saw. Whoever it was I am thankful to, because before i read that , I figured that I was gonna have to wait until I had the PROPER saws to build the bench.

All the tenons (except for one) on the Nicholson I just finished were ripped with a small D-8 that I converted to rip tooth. I think it's 9 or 10 tpi, but I honestly don't remember or feel like looking. And all the crosscuts were done with another small D-8 crosscut saw.

My joinery definitely wasn't as good as most you guys post, but at the end of the day the bench got built.

[Patrick Chase]

Maybe it was you or someone else who had stated in a previous thread that tenons were traditionally done with a rip saw. Whoever it was I am thankful to, because before i read that , I figured that I was gonna have to wait until I had the PROPER saws to build the bench.

Tenon cheeks are invariably cut along the grain, which is why the modern crop of "tenon saws" mostly come with rip filings. The real question is whether tenons need or benefit from the added stiffness of a backsaw.

I think that when you have 4" of plate under the spine you've lost a great deal of that benefit anyway (particularly if that plate is 0.20" thick) so I fall into the "not necessary" camp. The fit and finish requirements aren't as demanding as for DTs because cheeks generally aren't "show" surfaces, and they're pretty quick/easy to trim if absolutely necessary.