Cyclone surprises

[Jamie Buxton]

I upgraded to a cyclone (a Woodsucker II) a few months ago. As I expected, it collects chips very well. However, it does a couple of things I didn't expect...

Heat
If I run the cyclone for a couple hours, the shop temperature goes up 10-15 degrees. I was initially surprised; none of the other machines in my shop have that effect. The reason that the cyclone does it is that the device is designed to run the motor near its rated horsepower 100% of the time. Machines like saws run at rated horsepower only when they're ripping thick hardwood at a high feed rate. For all the rest of the times, they're practically idling. My 2-hp cyclone is drawing about 11 amps from 230 volts, which amounts to 2500 watts. A plug-in electric space heater is good for only 1500 watts or so. That is, this cyclone is putting substantially more heat into the shop than an electric space heater. Cyclones with larger motors will do even more heating.

Better ripping on the table saw!
With my new big cyclone, I finally hooked it up to my table saw. I refuse to deal with an overarm dust pickup, so I knew the cyclone would collect maybe 80% of the sawdust. However, I decided I ought to hook it up anyway. As it happens, it may collect something more like 90%. At any rate, I built two pieces of furniture with cherry, and noticed I had no burning. That led me to examine the quality of cut as I rip lumber. I do that by holding the cut up to a glancing light and looking at the teeth marks along the face. With the cyclone running, there is noticeably finer marking along the ripped face. My theory is that the teeth marks are there because the blade deflects sideways during a cut. Perhaps it is sawdust jammed in the kerf which is doing the deflection. With the cyclone greatly reducing the density of the sawdust cloud under the saw, perhaps there's less sawdust in the kerf, less deflection, and better cutting. Even if that's not the real explanation, the effect sure is nice.

Jamie

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Very interesting! With winter coming on the heat is a good thing, but what about summer? Is the DC unit enclosed?

Smaller blade marks are always good....that one will benefit you in the long run.

[Lee DeRaud]

At any rate, I built two pieces of furniture with cherry, and noticed I had no burning. That led me to examine the quality of cut as I rip lumber. I do that by holding the cut up to a glancing light and looking at the teeth marks along the face. With the cyclone running, there is noticeably finer marking along the ripped face. My theory is that the teeth marks are there because the blade deflects sideways during a cut. Perhaps it is sawdust jammed in the kerf which is doing the deflection. With the cyclone greatly reducing the density of the sawdust cloud under the saw, perhaps there's less sawdust in the kerf, less deflection, and better cutting. Even if that's not the real explanation, the effect sure is nice.Off-the-wall idea/question: how much of the burn/saw marks on the edges of ripped material is actually sawdust "welded" to the cut edge by the heat of the blade?

[Phil Maddox]

I suspect that your motor heating up is not the only culprit raising the temp in your shop. I'd have to dig out some old textbooks to prove the exact quatities, but it goes without saying that moving a lot of air through ductwork and then beating it with a DC impeller is another source of your heat when you run the cyclone.

Think about it, almost FREE heat!

Good luck!

Phil

[Dan Forman]

Interesting indeed. What size dust port does your saw have?

Dan

[Jamie Buxton]

Interesting indeed. What size dust port does your saw have?

Dan

The ducting and the port are 6".


Lee, maybe you're right. I can't think of a way to decide what it is.

Kelly, the cyclone just sits in the shop. The shop is about 500 sq ft, with a 12' ceiling. In the summer, you'll find me working in shorts, no shirt, and bare feet.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Too many surprises in the dust in my shop to go barefoot....:eek: :D

[Doug Whitson]

I don't usually get involved in personal preference. I just need to point out that if you have a cement floor and you are going bare footed, your chances of being seriously electrocuted go up dramatically. The path to ground goes directly across your chest if you happen to touch the prong while inserting a plug. Wooden floors are a different matter. Please excuse my "barging" in like this, but you are facing real danger.

Please don't take this the wrong way ok? I'm really just trying to help.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

That's only if the cement has a considerable moisture content right? Concrete does wick up moisture something fierce, I still can't believe they use concrete as a foundation for houses. But in Arizona or the like, could that actually happen?

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Kelly,

I don't know, but I wouldn't take the chance!! I had a friend in high school get killed running a skill saw, in bare feet, in the basement. I never go in my shop in bear feet for the same reason you don't.

Also, if I drop a chisel, I want it to hit leather!

Now that said, I am assuming the post about bear feet was tounge in cheek :)

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I agree with you there. I hate cement floors and no longer have any except the one on the front proch (and that one's gonna be torn out soon as I can do it). I wouldn't take the chance either.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

I don't mind cement floors, I would prefer wood in the shop, but alas it is a garage and the next owner probably won't want a wood floor!!

It is just amazing that cement floors conduct electricity as well as they do! An electrician friend told me of a situation he had a few years back in a house he had re-wired. Whenever the owners would walk in the basement barefoot, they would get randomly shocked, in their feet!!

Their laundry was down there, turns out the dryer had something wrong with it and was allowing stray current to the floor, shocking them.

VERY STRANGE! :)

[Scott Loven]

Kelly,

I don't know, but I wouldn't take the chance!! I had a friend in high school get killed running a skill saw, in bare feet, in the basement. I never go in my shop in bear feet for the same reason you don't.

Also, if I drop a chisel, I want it to hit leather!

Now that said, I am assuming the post about bear feet was tounge in cheek :)
Bear feet?

[Doug Shepard]

Jamie
I was searching SMC for info on the Woodsucker and found your post. I'm currently researching the possibility of putting a cyclone unit overhead in the rafters of my garage shop. I'd planned to locate it within about an inch of the roof boards. I started looking a bit more closely at the Woodsucker as it appears to have one of the smallest vertical footprints of the cyclones I've looked at. Your post got me curious regarding the heat issue. Do you think I'm risking a fire hazard with the motor on a Woodsucker being an inch away from the roof boards? Increasing the ambient air temp 10-15 is a bonus that will cut down how much I'll have to use my propane heater in colder months, but do you think there's any hazard with what I have in mind?

[Jim O'Dell]

Doug, I have a similar "problem" with my Clear Vue, I'm about 2 inches from the roof sheathing. I'm going to install a powered roof vent close to exhaust heat from the "attic", actually too small to qualify for a crawl space, and in the winter it should provide for heat to escape without the fan running. If adequate ventilation already exists, then probably nothing else would be needed, maybe a small fan to circulate the air. In my case, there is no existing roof ventilation at all. Jim.

[Frank Pellow]

The ducting and the port are 6".


Lee, maybe you're right. I can't think of a way to decide what it is.

Kelly, the cyclone just sits in the shop. The shop is about 500 sq ft, with a 12' ceiling. In the summer, you'll find me working in shorts, no shirt, and bare feet.[
Bare feet in a workshop. :confused: Jamie, why are you tempting injury like that? :confused:

[Jamie Buxton]

Jamie
I was searching SMC for info on the Woodsucker and found your post. I'm currently researching the possibility of putting a cyclone unit overhead in the rafters of my garage shop. I'd planned to locate it within about an inch of the roof boards. I started looking a bit more closely at the Woodsucker as it appears to have one of the smallest vertical footprints of the cyclones I've looked at. Your post got me curious regarding the heat issue. Do you think I'm risking a fire hazard with the motor on a Woodsucker being an inch away from the roof boards? Increasing the ambient air temp 10-15 is a bonus that will cut down how much I'll have to use my propane heater in colder months, but do you think there's any hazard with what I have in mind?

Doug --
As long as there's room for air to circulate in the area, I don't think you'd be putting the wood at risk.
Here's one way to think about it.... The motor gets warm enough that you can't really hold your hand on it. You can touch it for a few seconds, but you don't want to leave your hand there. If you held wood directly against the motor, it would be subject to the same temperature. That is, it will be way below ignition.

Jamie

[Jamie Buxton]

Bare feet in a workshop. :confused: Jamie, why are you tempting injury like that? :confused:

Frank, several posters have expressed concern about me working in bare feet. I don't get it. What's the issue?

Jamie

[martyphee]

Leeson makes a good motor, but I'm curious about long term reliability running a motor at FLA all the time.

[Jamie Buxton]

Leeson makes a good motor, but I'm curious about long term reliability running a motor at FLA all the time.

What's FLA?

[Frank Hagan]

I think the heat is probably from friction from moving all that air, not just the motor. Its amazing how much heat that kind of thing generates. In pumped water, the same principle can heat water up to the point where it softens plastic pipe (this happens when there isn't enough flow for the water to wick the heat away.)

The concrete slab in houses is often tied into the ground circuit ... in modern slab construction, they put a 20' rod in the foundation horizontally rather than pounding it into the ground. Perhaps that's why the concrete provides such a good source to ground. But I've heard the same thing, and I always wear rubber soles in my shop.

[Dan Forman]

Doug---Oneida recommends 2" of clearance from the top of the moter to the ceiling, not so much to protect the ceiling, but to provide adequate ventilation for the motor's fan so that the motor won't overheat.

In one of the recent Clearvue threads, they talk about the option of placing the blower unit off to the side of the cylone rather than on top, thus saving some headroom. I'll see if I can find the link.

Dan

[Frank Pellow]

Frank, several posters have expressed concern about me working in bare feet. I don't get it. What's the issue?

Jamie
A shop is a dangerous place and I would never expose my bare feet to the heavy things and the sharp things that reside there. I do often only wear shoes, but my feet are really only safe when wearing construction boots. Certainly, when otherts are working with me in the shop, I wear such boots.

Others seems to feal that your concrete floor may conduct electricity but, having a wooden floor, I don't have to worry about that

[Doug Shepard]

Doug --
As long as there's room for air to circulate in the area, I don't think you'd be putting the wood at risk.
Here's one way to think about it.... The motor gets warm enough that you can't really hold your hand on it. You can touch it for a few seconds, but you don't want to leave your hand there. If you held wood directly against the motor, it would be subject to the same temperature. That is, it will be way below ignition.
Jamie
Thanks - Doesn't sound like it would be a problem. I wasn't sure how hot the housing actually got.


Doug, I have a similar "problem" with my Clear Vue, I'm about 2 inches from the roof sheathing. I'm going to install a powered roof vent close to exhaust heat from the "attic", actually too small to qualify for a crawl space, and in the winter it should provide for heat to escape without the fan running. If adequate ventilation already exists, then probably nothing else would be needed, maybe a small fan to circulate the air. In my case, there is no existing roof ventilation at all. Jim.
Coincidently, I just happen to be contemplating mounting it right next to where the cupola on the garage is - more because it's the highest open space available in the rafters than any conscious plan of locating it by a vent. There's a powered exhaust fan on the cupola but that's usually only turned on in hot weather to cool the garage.


Doug---Oneida recommends 2" of clearance from the top of the moter to the ceiling, not so much to protect the ceiling, but to provide adequate ventilation for the motor's fan so that the motor won't overheat.
In one of the recent Clearvue threads, they talk about the option of placing the blower unit off to the side of the cylone rather than on top, thus saving some headroom. I'll see if I can find the link.
Dan
Dan - Thanks! If you can locate that thread I'd be real interested in seeing it. That might make it possible for me to have none of the cyclone projecting down below the ceiling joists and void any concerns I'd have about the thing projecting down so far that hitting the van roof makes this whole idea a no-go. Either way, giving it 2" instead of 1" should be the least of my problems.

[Travis Porter]

I got electrocuted that way using my drill press when lightning hit out behind my shop. I did a dance like never seen before.

Unfortunately, it didn't break me from going barefooted. Just made me very leary of thunderstorms.

[martyphee]

Full Load Amps

[Jamie Buxton]

Leeson makes a good motor, but I'm curious about long term reliability running a motor at FLA(Full Load Amps) all the time.

Most chip collectors run their motors at very near the full capacity of the motor. And, unlike the motors in many woodworking machnes, the chip collectors work at constant load. I guess you just have to trust that the motor manufacturer is rating its motors correctly.

[Jamie Buxton]

A shop is a dangerous place and I would never expose my bare feet to the heavy things and the sharp things that reside there. I do often only wear shoes, but my feet are really only safe when wearing construction boots. Certainly, when otherts are working with me in the shop, I wear such boots.

Others seems to feal that your concrete floor may conduct electricity but, having a wooden floor, I don't have to worry about that

Frank ---
What's on the floor of my shop is sawdust, and not a great deal of it. It isn't likely to hurt me.

Heavy objects falling on my feet? Well, short of steel-toed boots, shoes are unlikely to provide much protection. As is happens, the objects I handle in the shop don't weigh a great deal, and wouldn't do much damage with or without shoes.

Electricity? All of my stationary machines and most of my hand tools are grounded. The outlets are grounded -- I installed most of them, and I've tested all of them. A few tools are double-insulated. That is, it would take failures of two separate barriers for any of these tools to present a shock hazard. This is pretty darn unlikely. Now, if I were were working inside a live breaker box, shoes would be a very good idea. (Of course, not working inside of live breaker boxes would be an even better idea.;) )

Jamie