94 cabinet door rails to tenon ~ both ends!

[Sam Murdoch]

Geez - just the thought it of doing that one piece a time - all the loading on the sled - clamping down -running them through the shaper - unclamping - end for ending - doing it again - 188 times. Too manyyyyyyyyyy :eek:.

All these being 3/4" thick x 4-1/2" wide (+ 1/2" for finish dimensioning) red birch - most in the 6" to 10" length but some as short as 3-1/8" and some as long as 18" made me realize I had to try something.

Having recently acquired an old 1/4 hp power feeder from Sawmill Creeker, Larry Edgerton - this, a very generous GIFT from Larry - Thank you very - very much Larry :cool: - the little light bulb in my head turned on. The power feeder had made the running of the stiles so safe and accurate and fast that I decided it was worth doing a test run (or 3) of setting up a sled to hold 4 rails at a time and power feed those past the shaper cutter.

Worked beautifully! :D

Of course I still needed to run it all through 47 times but I managed all the parts from 1:30 in the afternoon to before 5PM including a 20 minute coffee break. Most importantly all the variables (and inevitable inaccuracy) of doing this one at a time, fed by hand, was eliminated.

Just sharing for anyone else contemplating a big run of cabinet door rails.

Still shots available if anyone is interested. A bit boring but perhaps informative.

Cheers, Sam

[lowell holmes]

We need to see pictures. It is difficult to visualize.
Obviously there is cross grain.

[Martin Wasner]

Wouldn't work the way I do doors, we remove a 1/16" of material on each end when coping to square and relive tear out.

Pretty routinely we do jobs with ~100 doors and another ~100 paneled drawer fronts. Staring at a pile of parts needing 800 copes and knowing you're going to be making sweet sweet love to a shaper for the next two hours is a little demoralizing.

I'm looking for dedicated and automatic coper, (other than a shaper), to speed things up. It'll better than halve the machining time plus it will take employee abuse of tooling out of the equation.

[Sam Murdoch]

Photos here as requested.

1st the old sled. i used this set up for the last 30 + doors. Each rail x 2 ends. Very tedious and though I made up a 1/2 dozen trial runs and had achieved near perfection with those, it was inevitable that feeding these by hand would give mixed "near" results. Didn't help that I had run the stiles by hand too. The power feeder wasn't ready for action as I was waiting new wheels. You can see there was lots of clamping and hold downs but ...

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Next time around - the 2nd batch of 47 doors - I had to do better. Yes I know that a production shop doesn't do things this way but I typically do not operate a production shop. A big kitchen for me might have a couple of dozen doors and panels and even those jobs, not so often that in my recent iteration as a cabinet maker/furniture builder I ever realized the need for a shaper. I offer this as a potential procedure for Creekers like me who do not often run batches of parts.

It helped that the rails are as wide as they are. 4-1/2" is a pretty stable width compared to 2-1/4". This second time, as in the first case, ALL my parts were at the same rough width and all were cut precisely square and to the finished length, including for the length of the tenons, of course. The shaper barely skimmed a bit of length off the rails and that was consistent throughout.

ALSO - each time I realized it was safer and more exact to load the sled OFF THE SHAPER TABLE. To that end I set up a rigid straight edge to which I push the sled tight and load my rail (1st run by hand). The second run, with the power feeder, I would clamp my sled to the straight edge as I loaded the first ends of a given size. I then pushed up against my 4 rails another straight edge which was screwed to the sled. This was my moving FENCE. Once the first batch of any size was loaded it was a simple matter to simply end for end or add new parts because now the straight edged fastened to my sled, aka, THE FENCE, was the control. The straight edge on the bench was a critical piece of my set up though. Here are photos that should illustrate that:

In the 1st photo the piece with the brass screw showing is my bench straight edge. You can see that I have 4 rails loaded (and sacrificial pieces at both ends). The piece with the silver screws is an extra keeper attached to THE FENCE - just a precaution.

2nd photo shows the loaded sled being fed through the shaper by the power feeder. The wheels of the power feeder were always riding on the rails themselves - even the 3-1/8" pieces - so making certain that they did not move in any orientation on the sled was essential.

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I started with my short parts and as the longer rails were processed I kept moving my sled FENCE - held down with screws - and I added a more substantial hold down across the width of the loaded parts (still securely fastened to my FENCE once all that stuff could clear the shaper).

Here are photos showing the finished product:

Even with the end grain I had consistently smooth results. Feeder as slow as it could go and the shaper operating at 8000. You can see the bit of tear out on the outboard edge of the rail in photo 1. This will cut off when I size the doors. Taking care to load the sled so that the final piece against the sacrificial stop was always outboard edge to the stop was key. Also loading in such a way so that when I end for ended my parts I still had an outboard edge to go against that stop. Had to keep my wits the whole time.

The 2nd photo here shows one piece pulled out of the sled after the final pass of it and its brothers.

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OK - I can't add more. Sorry if this is more than you want to or care to read.:rolleyes: Just trying to be thorough with my description. I did say it would be boring, though informative :D for those contemplating such an operation. Now those of you who have done this a hundred times - please share. Will make the next time even easier.

In conclusion - This turned out to be a very stress free, efficient, accurate and safe procedure with excellent results. I can't imagine why not doing it this way even when I only need to run parts for a 1/2 dozen doors. I taught myself something. :cool:

Enjoy - Sam

[Darcy Warner]

tenoner, makes life easy.

[Mel Fulks]

Since you asked...if all rail stock is at least 5 and 1/2 inches wide they can be coped face down fed by feeder ,then ripped before sticking cut. No sled is the method I like and find easiest. And if same machine will be used for sticking no vertical machine height adjustment is needed. But you might need a dedicated shim under sticking set. Never seen a case where it was neccesary to LOWER spindle for sticking cut. But I'm in the minority ,and your way will work fine.......Neglected to say my way requires a rub collar

[Jim Andrew]

Think I like the method Mel lays out, just don't rip your rails down before coping. I use my Freud router bits in my shaper to make door frames, they have a rub collar built in. Usually set the shaper up to make the styles, and the router table to make cope cut. This sounds much easier.

[Jim Morgan]

Are you making a bunch of narrow doors or are you using the short rails as vertical members in drawer frames?

[Sam Murdoch]

As much as anything this is a thread about working with what you've got. In this case - no tenoner, no router table, no 5-1/2" wide stock.

I haven't seen or built cabinet doors (before now) with rails and stiles at 4-1/2" wide but it seems that one could prep two sides of narrower rails onto one wider board and run those ends as Mel suggests. Rip them to size after.

James - with 4-1/2" stiles even the 3 -1/8" long rails give a 12"+ wide door. Only 8 of those most are in the 14" to 24" range.

Yes, there are certainly other ways to do this work. Just glad to have discovered the option of using a power feeder with a sled. BTW - I was holding the sled as it fed past the cutters - actually pushing it against the fence. No reason to stand by idle while the power feeder did the work. Seemed appropriate to keep two hands on the procedure.

[Kevin Jenness]

I don't see what the big deal is in regard to coping that many rails. Doing one at a time on a sled I would have been done in less time than you spent with the method described. A bit tedious,but that's why they call it work.

[Sam Murdoch]

I don't see what the big deal is in regard to coping that many rails. Doing one at a time on a sled I would have been done in less time than you spent with the method described. A bit tedious,but that's why they call it work.

Based on my experience with the first 31 doors of this group my second sled/feeder method was very fast - 188 copes in 3 hours - fast enough anyway. Less time than needed to write and illustrate these posts :rolleyes:. Once I had my system tweaked it was very easy and efficient. No comparison. This is why I shared. I suppose if you have a perfect store bought sled with all the right quick release clamps etc., you would be more efficient than I with my original home made set up but the ganged up sled and the power feeder was a great combo. I am not one to grumble about "work" I just prefer to be efficient, safe, and with the best results. Wasn't intending a debate on the merits - just sharing one man's experience. To each his own.

[Mark Bolton]

In our shop any operation that can be feeder run is a winner hands down. Firm hold down to the table, speed, no operator error, accuracy and cut quality, operator fatigue. Sounds like you found a good system that works for you. You can still take a full cleanup cut with a sled using an adjustable back fence. Agreed though that hundred-plus door jobs are daunting to say the least.

[James Zhu]

I think Aigner Contermax (https://www.werkzeuge-fuchs.de/en/milling/safety-technics/aigner-contermax-a-precise-rapid-means-providing-a-profile-end-of-a-timber-section) is probably the best jig for coping, easier and faster than any other coping jigs in the market. For narrow stock, you could do multiple pieces in one pass. Check the following video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urmz_cpHsH0&t=455s

[Kevin Jenness]

Sam,

Thanks for sharing your method. I did not mean to be negative. I use a simple shop-made sled with a destaco clamp and fence-mounted hold-down, guided by the miter gauge groove, with a fresh backer for each cut, clamped between the workpiece and backup fence. About 30 seconds per piece. I have used a powerfed sled for long tenon cheeks cut with saw blades on a shaper, mostly because of the difficulty of guarding the blades, so I recognize the usefulness of the technique..

Another approach to running copes on multiple rails is shown in post #5 in this thread- http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220947-shaper-tenoning-table. Note the belt on the powerfeed in the background for running short pieces. The poster, J.R. Rutter, runs a commercial door shop, so I imagine he has experimented with a few different methods.

[Martin Wasner]

I don't see what the big deal is in regard to coping that many rails. Doing one at a time on a sled I would have been done in less time than you spent with the method described. A bit tedious,but that's why they call it work.


I figure 3-4 seconds per cope with our setup. You gotta hustle to make that pace though.

[Martin Wasner]

I think Aigner Contermax (https://www.werkzeuge-fuchs.de/en/milling/safety-technics/aigner-contermax-a-precise-rapid-means-providing-a-profile-end-of-a-timber-section) is probably the best jig for coping, easier and faster than any other coping jigs in the market. For narrow stock, you could do multiple pieces in one pass. Check the following video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urmz_cpHsH0&t=455s

A sled from Reliable is $900, and I'd take that over the Aigner any day. Pneumatic clamp, and it pumps air through through the base so it's riding on air. We run them in the mitre slots and you'd really have to be trying to get hurt by the cutter. (Though I have had two guys think it was a good idea to clamp their fingers down, then try and pull their finger out before releasing the clamp) Some people don't listen when you tell them it'll be painful.

I agree with Mark though, anything you can take the operator out of the equation, you're better off. PMK has a coper/tenoner that I'm hoping we can acquire in the next year or so. The operator just needs to load and unload the parts, the rest is automated, runs two rails at a time, and it doesn't need a backer to prevent tear out.

[Sam Murdoch]

You guys are all out of my league equipment wise :rolleyes:. Fun to have those great tools though isn't it.
I'm learning to improvise, after a massive downscale, and still produce professional results.

This old dog ain't sitting on the couch :D.

[Mel Fulks]

We have confidence in you ,Sam! All the sugestions will work. I do think a good starting point is knowing the cutters are made to work as I described; we are living in a time where the equipment mfgs are told that their liability is less by saying less. That tip was given to me by an older worker. I have not seen it in print any place but here. When a shim is required under the sticking cutters a coke can is about right. I've seen guys put both sets on shaper at one time and then adjust heights back and forth a number of times on one job!

[Larry Edgerton]

Nice improvised setup Sam. Glad the feeder is getting a new lease on life. It served me well, may it make your life a little easier.

One thing I do at times when all my rails have to be consecutive is use wide boards, cut to length, cope in the wide width, do the triangle marking, rip and then stick to an outboard fence. Less chance of screwing up in the middle of a matched set. I like your idea and may try it just for fun. I have a fixture but can only do one at a time.

Have a great day tomorrow Sir, Larry

[Mike Delyster]

I think Aigner Contermax (https://www.werkzeuge-fuchs.de/en/milling/safety-technics/aigner-contermax-a-precise-rapid-means-providing-a-profile-end-of-a-timber-section) is probably the best jig for coping, easier and faster than any other coping jigs in the market. For narrow stock, you could do multiple pieces in one pass. Check the following video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urmz_cpHsH0&t=455s

With the Aigner jig it's easy to 89-1/2 degrees or 91 degrees or any other oddball angle. To cut perfect 90 degree cuts everytime requires modifications to the jig. I was frustrated with that jig and didn't use it until Joe showed me how he modified his.
Thanks Joe.

[peter gagliardi]

Mike, I don't follow what you are saying?? I have that jig, and haven't experienced any issues yet?

[Mike Delyster]

Mike, I don't follow what you are saying?? I have that jig, and haven't experienced any issues yet?

Hello Peter,

I found using the Aigner jig that the sliding block that you attach your backer board to is not big enough to hold it square consistently. Every time you moved it for a different width of stock you needed to fuss around to get it set back to exactly 90 degrees. It was very easy to move the block a degree or two out of square when tightening it down.


Joe posted his fix over on CWW and I modified mine the same way. I ended up drilling a series of countersunk holes on one side of the jig to attach the backer to. You lose the adjustability part, but as long as you hold everything tight to the fence when you screw the backer on it will be square.
Here are a couple of pictures of my modifications.

[peter gagliardi]

I see, this is all I have used, and it has worked so far.
Not a bad idea though.
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Around 4" of bearing give or take with the thicker wood piece on the vertical portion. I did however glue a strip of sandpaper to the clamp pad which made a world of difference.
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[Mike Delyster]

I like your sandpaper addition and I will give that a try.

I still have the parts to put it back to original, but I don't know if I will bother messing around with it again. It's pretty easy to screw the backer on with a cordless drill from above and you can still move it fairly quick when changing stock size.

[John Gulick]

tenoner, makes life easy.

+1, we have several and leave them dedicated

[Joe Calhoon]

I like the Aigner device for just a few doors but prefer sliding table shaper for quantities. We use the Aigner a lot for cutting returns on mouldings. It's easy because you don't have to change fence or shaft height. We do a lot of square edge doors and find just a simple sled using the bridge on the fence a quick setup. This would not work if you are removing the whole edge. This is parts for one simple doweled divided light French door. Large quantities I would be using the sliding table.

We have a CNC tenoner and a manual one in the past. They are good for door and window work but not ideal for coped cabinet doors.



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[Kevin Jenness]

Joe, is that an adjustable knuckle on the outfeed end of the fence in the third photo?

[James Zhu]

Joe, is that an adjustable knuckle on the outfeed end of the fence in the third photo?

https://www.werkzeuge-fuchs.de/en/milling/safety-technics/aigner-spreader-small-unstable-workpieces

[Brad Shipton]

Kevin, you can get Aigner from the Martin dealers. The Integral fence and the complete catalog is at: http://www.martin-usa.com/products/integral-fence/

[jack duren]

Most shops I've worked for when it came to cabinetry used Weaver systems. The manual coping was as fast to run as it was to load....

Home made version ....
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[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, is that an adjustable knuckle on the outfeed end of the fence in the third photo?

Kevin, It works well for narrow rabbited parts and also useful when doing face mouldings with the feeder turned against the fence.

Cabinet doors are fairly easy to make and several methods are possible for all types shops. Sam certainly found a good way for his shop. We used to have dedicated shapers with the Weaver setup. Every job we do is different and most customers want something different than what is offered by mfgs. Our quick setup shapers work well for our work now. The local cabinet door mfg uses a variety of machines. A lot of dedicated shapers, some Unique machines, a big SCM double end machine for large orders and they just set up a CNC router for outside profiling and sizing of cabinet doors. They used a track fed SCM single end tenoner with jump copes for years but think they wore that machine out.

[Larry Edgerton]

Absolutely Joe. In the end it is about getting the job done to satisfaction of both yourself and you customer in a manner that can be supported by the local economy that you have to deal with combined with the competition that you have to come up against. Different areas have different ideas about what is acceptable and what is affordable. Investing in machines that you market will not support is just as bad as trying to make cabinet doors with an adz and a broadax.

I have spent some time in Sam's area and it is a lot similar to the one I work in, some resort people with a ton of money and then the rest of us. There is a lot of competition for the few high dollar jobs that come up and doing a quick google search of Sam's area shows me that his is the same as mine, a ton of people competing for the same dollars. Its nice to live in a rural setting, but you do pay a price when it comes to what you can charge. If one was to call Martin and have then send one of everything and put it on my card, there would soon be a really juicy auction. I constantly have Martin dreams, but I also realize that I have to pay for them and I can not keep my shop busy enough to pay for it. So I get by with what I have, just as Sam is doing.

When Sam's job is done, I have every confidence that it will be beautiful, and that it will stay that way long after many of us are gone. That for me is my motivation, leave this world with a little bit of quality work that makes people happy.

Larry