Combination square in carpentry - a recommendation

[Bill Houghton]

On the thread about "why use a try square?", there's been a little thread drift into combination squares. One post, partially quoted below, inspired me to respond; but it occurred to me that my response might be better as a new thread, since it's pretty far from the presenting question.

Dad raised/trained me to use a combination square in carpentry work, and I'm still convinced that it's the most versatile tool, at least for the way I do carpentry, particularly trim carpentry. I offer the recommendation below for those who are inclined to agree.


My father was a carpenter and always used a combination square (well before the days of the speed square) as a marking gauge with a pencil held on a mark on the blade. He got pretty good accuracy doing this, but I never could.

The Millers Falls Company made a combination square, the 1200, with a cast iron head and a non-glare chrome plated rule marked in carpenter's dimensions* of 8ths/16ths on one side and 16ths/32nds on the other. I actually spent the money to buy one from That Auction Site (not big money**), in spite of having more combination squares than I really need, because I got irritated by the No. 4 rules on my combination squares; I was always finding the side with the 32nds and 64ths facing up when I needed to take off a measurement but didn't need that level of precision.

There's a bonus: the rule, like those on some squares from Stanley, Craftsman, and others, has a notch in the end of the rule that will accept the point of a (No. 2 size) pencil. This gives two benefits when using the square as a marking gauge: the pencil stays with the rule better as they slide down the board, and the notch is sized so that the pencil point is aligned with the end of the rule, not a tad beyond it.

If you do much carpentry, and you prefer a combination square for doing it, it's worth seeking one of these out. It's way better than the Stanley offerings with the die-cast heads and coarsely stamped out rules.

There's also a 1250, with a stainless steel blade; not sure on the markings. I found the 1200 in the 1981 catalog available online, but not the 1250.
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*"The carpenter works to the nearest 16th of an inch, the cabinetmaker to the nearest 64th; and the boat builder to the nearest boat."
**The Schwarz hasn't found these yet. Once he does, and blogs about them, prices will head to the skies. I doubt my recommendation will cause that to happen...

[lowell holmes]

I have two combination squares. One is an Althol Machine Company. Althol became Disston. The other is a Disston square. They look and feel the same.:)

I may have to file a notch in my Disston.

I steel wool the blade if they get dirty and put Johnson's wax on them.

[Todd Stock]

I have a good full-size framing square, Swanson reg and large speed squares, a large shop-made aluminum folding layout square for quickly squaring deck joists off the ledger or other flat layout, and a Stanley-UK 46-123 combo square...the regular Swanson and the Stanley sit in dedicated spots on my framing bags. The combo square is 20 years or so old...still checks square enough for framing work and nice for plate and roughing work on plumbing and electrical. Does not hurt function to ease the corners of the rule if it's going to be carried back by the cats-paw. The rule on the Stanley is not as easy to read as a Starrett, but a little black Sanford Sharpie helps highlight...the yellow paint on the casting makes it a little more visible when working outside over dirt or wet gravel and it gets dropped.

[lowell holmes]

I also have two framing squares. One was my father's and is a 1960's vintage. He knew how to use it, I really don't.
I would have to study to use it.

He could layout rafters, including hip rafters using it. I have an old book of his telling how, but I really don't use it.

[Joe Bailey]

I have two combination squares. One is an Althol Machine Company. Althol became Disston.

The Athol Machine Co was acquired by Starrett, not Disston

[lowell holmes]

You are correct, I mis-spoke.
I have an Althol and Starrett, they are identical.

[Roger Nair]

I learned carpentry from old country boys, the prime layout tools were steel framing squares and Lufkin extension folding rules. Trim men and not framers had combination squares but in my memory the combo square was not essential for framing or trim.

[Jim Koepke]

I learned carpentry from old country boys, the prime layout tools were steel framing squares and Lufkin extension folding rules. Trim men and not framers had combination squares but in my memory the combo square was not essential for framing or trim.

Marking and cutting small pieces of trim would be a PITA with a framing square. With having to lay out 45º and 90º angles regularly a combination square is likely easier to carry than a few try squares.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I learned carpentry from old country boys, the prime layout tools were steel framing squares and Lufkin extension folding rules. Trim men and not framers had combination squares but in my memory the combo square was not essential for framing or trim.

You are correct, but the first speed square I saw was used by a framer that was framing a house for me. I bought a speed square quickly.

I have three speed squares. I keep misplacing them and then finding them.

I also have combination squares, 4", 6", and 12". As I mentioned before, I have two framing squares and a 12" square. They seem to grow like rabbits.

[steven c newman]

Used to have a worn spot on my right fingers' knuckles......IF you hold the pencil in your hand and set the point to where you want the line, you can just hold the pencil and slide the hand along. Just watch out for splinters along the way...DAMHIKT..

By the time you'd get that square out, and set it...I'd already be sawing.....

[Kurt Owens]

IF you hold the pencil in your hand and set the point to where you want the line, you can just hold the pencil and slide the hand along.

This. If the line I need to draw is less than 2 inches I will use the good old "finger gauge". Having a sharp pencil helps

[Roger Nair]

Jim, trim work would be accomplished with length marks and the angles generally are held by the miter box and trimmed and closed with low angle block plane. For instance, odd angles were transferred to the miter box with adjustable bevel and a division made for cutting angle. Work proceeds at a fair clip, limited time for layout niceties.

[Karl Andersson]

Thanks Bill, this is good information- I appreciate your detailed description and explanation about the notch. Now I have something else to keep an eye out for at the flea market! I'll just look for squares with that heart-shaped cutout at the "setting knob".
Karl

[george wilson]

This guy I know was hired by us to build 2 large wooden boxes for my wife to make mulch in. She could also use the boxes(about 5' x 8' as small gardens if she wanted.) I saw him make the same measurement from each side of the end of a board, make a mark on each side where the measurement was the same. Then,he connected the 2 marks with a line across the board,and was about to saw the board off along that line. If the board was cut a bit crooked on the end he was measuring from,he was only transferring that out-of-squareness to the other end. I did not want to buy an extra 2x8" once he had ruined the first one!

I intervened and showed him to use a try square across the board to get a SQUARE cut. He wanted to argue with me, saying that he had learned that 2 measurement business from an old carpenter. I was forced to tell him that if he wanted to do work here, he'd have to follow my instructions. Should just have fired him. But I was recovering from an injury and needed the help. I should have drawn an ANGLED line on the end of the board, made the 2 measurements, and showed him, using a square, that his method only worked IF the end of the board was cut off square. Otherwise, he was only transferring an angle to the other end of the board. But, he was being paid to work, not to get schooling! There were other times I taught him in my shop how to grind a knife freehand, and gave him free W1 steel made in the 1950's to do it. I wished later that I hadn't wasted my small supply of vintage AMERICAN steel on him!! It was OLD Brown and Sharpe steel that was so old, the supplier felt that he could not sell it in that condition. But, the steel itself was ground MUCH,MUCH smoother than is supplied today. It almost had a mirror finish. There was NO rust at all. And it was made in the peak of American steel making. I valued it highly.

He went ahead and used my method, but I don't think he ever really understood it. Funny how some people just don't have the ability to figure out a simple job, like cutting a board square!:) I'd hate to see a house this guy had made(though he had never built a house! When I was 13 I got started on that route, by helping a new neighbor build a house next to ours. As time went on in Alaska, and it seemed that half of the people in the town were building houses,I got plenty more practice, (but no pay!) I just enjoyed it. I also set dynamite and hauled 3/4" steel cable, helping another neighbor build a road that we would all use. He was an old, semi disabled logger. He had a pronounced limp from chopping a foot pretty bad with an adze years earlier. We even made the stump puller, using the flat head 4 cylinder engine from an old WILLYS car. That was one UGLY car!! Frazier, who built the liberty ships so quickly during WWII, had promised the American people a $1000.00 car. The closest he ever got was $1200.00 if I recall correctly. The back seat of that car was a piece of white pine shelving wrapped in red plastic leatherette-no padding at all ! The man should at least been remembered for building the Liberty ships so fast that the enemies could not sink them fast enough! Had I been of age,I'd certainly have joined the Navy before becoming a merchant mariner ! THAT was a dangerous job!!!! Some of the public lost faith in him over the issue of the car. How ungrateful !

[Bill Houghton]

George,

A coworker of mine once said, "You can lead a horse to water, but if it won't drink, you can always drown it!" I'm not advocating for that by any means; but some people are just flat determined not to learn.

[Jim Koepke]

Here is a cool looking Combo square from this months tool list from Patrick Leach:

361645

http://www.supertool.com/forsale/june2017list.html

It is MS22 in the Miscellaneous tools section and is listed as a Starrett #10, only $165 + Shipping and handling.

jtk

[Bill Houghton]

Here is a cool looking Combo square from this months tool list from Patrick Leach:

361645

http://www.supertool.com/forsale/june2017list.html

It is MS22 in the Miscellaneous tools section and is listed as a Starrett #10, only $165 + Shipping and handling.

jtk
Interesting, Jim. Looks like the early inspiration for their Builder's Combination Tool, still listed in their catalog (look here: http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/metrology/metrology-products/precision-measuring-tools/squares/Special-Squares/439-18). I'd buy either of them, though not for the prices listed...more like garage sale they-don't-know-what-they-have prices.

I wonder, for both tools, if there's a positive stop of some kind for the square setting; otherwise, you could sure spend a lot of time being frustrated as you squared it every dang time.

Maybe I'm just sensitive because I was cutting some fence posts yesterday with the circular saw and kept having to bounce back and forth between 40 degree and 90 degree settings...no, I think it would just drive me nuts never being sure if my square was square. Still, Leach's offering is pretty nifty.

Drifting: I wonder why no one makes a double square with a 12" rule? I'd be up for one. The stock (handle part) on double squares is usually longer than the square/miter head on a combination square. Of course, I could never afford one new.

[lowell holmes]

I bought a Starrett square many years back. I smile every time I use it.

Every thing about is quality. It has a stainless rule and a gloss black handle.
Above all, it is absolutely square. The numbers and letters appear to be engraved.

I enjoy quality tools.

[steven c newman]

Sometimes, I just go "old school"
361654
had a factory edge, needed a cut that was 27-3/8" at one end, and 27-1/2" at the other end...measure from the factory edge, make a mark.
361655
A few taps to the side of the box to coat the string line. Tightly stretched, and snapped once. Box's brand name is "Strait Line"
361656
Make the cut, by splitting the line. Done.

[Lonnie Gallaher]

I have been using combination squares it seems all my life. I worked many years in steel fabrication and wore out some inexpensive squares. About 35 years ago I splurged on the best Starrett had. I have never regretted the few hundred they cost at the time.

361660

I thought I would use the builders square, but in the 35 years, I have had it it has sat in the tool chest. The other Starrett's received 10 to 15 years of hard use in the steel shops. Now they are enjoying a much easier environment.

This thread is about Millers Falls #1200 square. Mine is the bottom center. It is 45 years old. I bought it at a time I was going to start a carpenter apprenticeship. I ended up in a boilermaker apprenticeship instead. So, it has not been used much. It now resides in my handyman bucket along with the red stocked square at the bottom left. It is a Craftsman. The stock is identical to the Millers Falls. It did come with a hardened steel blade where as the #1200 has a chrome plated blade with the pencil notch.

BTW, I do own a speed square and a couple of vintage try squares.

[Todd Stock]

Totally off topic to the thread, George, but I visited with one of your former coworkers in the Instrument Shop recently - she's married to a luthier buddy of mine and they are settling into their new place up near Frederick...lovely, huge country home with a large, beam-trussed great room perfect for house concerts and multiple shop and project storage spaces. I've been helping out a bit on the new repair shop's design and layout, and mentioned the quality & quantity of the natural lighting (nice indirect west-facing high windows and direct north light) at the likely bench locations. We went on to discuss how the Williamsburg shops were laid out re: daylight vs. bench spaces and talk a bit about the various projects and people associated with the museum. Knowing she was a contemporary of yours, I mentioned that you were still active on one of the sites I read, and Nancy's response was the sort of complement that we all hope to receive from our peers:

"Now THAT guy was a CRAFTSMAN!"

OK...the word curmudgeon was tossed around a bit as well, but that's not important, now, right? :)

Just thought I'd pass on those kind words.

[Lonnie Gallaher]

Bill said, "I wonder, for both tools, if there's a positive stop of some kind for the square setting; otherwise, you could sure spend a lot of time being frustrated as you squared it every dang time."

The Builders Combination Tool does have an adjustable stop in the stock for the blade. It looks like the stop on the older one is just above the round portion of the stock.

[Stew Denton]

Hi Bill,

I use my combination squares a lot in carpentry too. I have 3 of them, a very old "Southington HWDE Co." that is all steel, a Stanley that has a plastic handle that is probably 25 years old or so, and a BORG variety brand of some kind (I can't find it right now, and think poorly enough of it that I am not going to take the time to look) that is almost new.

The Southington and the Stanley are both actually pretty darned square, when I check them with one of my drafting squares. I dropped the Southington a few years ago, and it does not clamp the rule as well as it used too....I guess I need to work on it with a file some of these times. I dropped the Stanley a couple of years ago, and the plastic is now somewhat brittle, and a chunk broke out of the handle. Despite their shortcomings, the two older combination squares are still quite useful. I use them for marking gauges, etc., in addition to using them for squares, etc.

I bought the new BORG combination square because I was working on the kids house, needed a combination square, and mine were both a 4 hour drive away. It is not close enough to being square for anything except perhaps marking framing 2X4s for square cut off, and it can be used as a marking gauge. Other than that, it is a piece of junk. Big waste of money.

Like a poster above, I don't mark trim for angle before cutting, but get the angle with my miter box, after checking the joint with a square.

Someday, I hope to buy one GOOD combination square, it will be money extremely well spent. It won't be new, but used and well taken care of.

I use my grandfathers framing square, but is it also slightly out of square, someday a good and square framing square will come my way. I have a large drafting triangle, and will check any framing square with it before buying.

Stew

[Patrick Chase]

Hi Bill,

I use my combination squares a lot in carpentry too. I have 3 of them, a very old "Southington HWDE Co." that is all steel, a Stanley that has a plastic handle that is probably 25 years old or so, and a BORG variety brand of some kind (I can't find it right now, and think poorly enough of it that I am not going to take the time to look) that is almost new.

I bought the new BORG combination square because I was working on the kids house, needed a combination square, and mine were both a 4 hour drive away. It is not close enough to being square for anything except perhaps marking framing 2X4s for square cut off, and it can be used as a marking gauge. Other than that, it is a piece of junk. Big waste of money.

Probably an Empire as that's mostly what HD carries.

Their stuff is hit-or-miss, with the combination squares decidedly on the "miss" end of the spectrum. In my experience the biggest problem with them is that the castings are often warped, such that the registration faces end up curved, and the 45-deg corner isn't acceptably close to the advertised angle. The castings obviously are machined (and fairly coarsely at that) so my guess is that it's done too fast, such that they're machined flat while hot and they then cool to a warped shape.

OTOH the Empires are about $12, while the cheapest "decent" square (PEC) is about 5X that, and the forged steel Starrett is up about $125. Accurate post-machining costs money, and you get what you pay for.

[steven c newman]

One of the names I trust in squares is Swanson. Never had any problems with them. Carried a Swanson Speed Square as a Carpenter, the 6" combo is by Swanson......use it all the time. Try Squares I have are all by Stanley, most are older than I am.

Wore out a Starrett Combo last year,,, was getting too loose. Would NOT tighten up square, lost all trust in it. No longer have it in the shop, in fact. Not impressed....

[John Kananis]

Anyone ever used the General Tools forged steel combination squares? A bit pricey but not as bad as (or as good as?) a Starrett. They look nicely made but not sure if its worth the savings over the Starrett.

EDIT: I hope this isn't too off topic - of so, apologies.

[Patrick Chase]

Wore out a Starrett Combo last year,,, was getting too loose. Would NOT tighten up square, lost all trust in it. No longer have it in the shop, in fact. Not impressed....

You will eventually do that to any square with a cast iron head. That's why George and I have both repeatedly referenced the versions Starrett makes with forged and hardened steel heads. Mitutoyo also makes quality combo squares with hardened steel heads, but they're similarly expensive.

It's probably worth noting that the head of the Vesper double square that I brought up in the other thread is O1 hardened to Rc 60+.

[Bill Houghton]

Stew: I sent you a private message.

[Ray Selinger]

When I was a poor apprentice carpenter,I bought a Stanley Handyman combination square. Their "good" one had two bubbles, both were cast iron. Later rather than lose one of my first tool purchases I bought another Stanley Handyman, same number, only this one had a pot metal head. Now that same casting is their "good" one. I found one of those cast iron Stanley Handyman square at the fleamarket. This one wasn't accurate,but I was able to file it.

[Mike Henderson]

For those of you who have seen "Crocodile Dundee", you'll remember when a guy tries to rob them at knife point in New York City. Dundee's girlfriend says, "He's got a knife!" And Dundee says, "Nah, that's not a knife. This is a knife." And he pulls out his Bowie style knife.

Well, this is a combination square. The "small" square is a 12 inch Mitutoyo.

The big one is a Starrett H8.

Mike

362074

[Bill Houghton]

For those of you who have seen "Crocodile Dundee", you'll remember when a guy tries to rob them at knife point in New York City. Dundee's girlfriend says, "He's got a knife!" And Dundee says, "Nah, that's not a knife. This is a knife." And he pulls out his Bowie style knife.

Well, this is a combination square. The "small" square is a 12 inch Mitutoyo.

The big one is a Starrett H8.

Mike

362074
My. That's one serious tool. It would be a bit awkward in a carpenter's belt.