American V/S Euro Table Saws

[Jay Brewer]

Hey everyone, I already own a Grizzly 1023 cabinet saw, and cringe everytime i have to process sheet stock.I am going to be purchacing a Euro Sliding Table Saw very soon, I know they are better than American Saws. My concern is the justification of the price. Is the actual Table saw (not counting the slider) that much better than say a Delta Uni-Saw?

A nice Delta Uni-saw $2000.00 with a better fence than most Euro Saws

Hammer K3 Preform with 8ft. slider w/o scoring $7700.00

Do you think the sliding table and outrigger is worth $5700.00 or am i missing something ? Thanks

[Jim Becker]

Your comparing crab apples to granny smiths other than they are table saws. Different features, power, etc., as well as functionality--the cost difference is not just for the slider and outrigger! You seem to be concerned about processing sheet stock and for that the Euro slider excels. You have to judge if the cost difference is meaningful to you and then do some careful shopping to decide which product from Hammer, MiniMax and others is best for your needs.

[Andy Hoyt]

Jay - check out this recent thread that caught my attention

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=25425

[lou sansone]

I am not sure how much space you have, but if you have at least 20' x 15' feet to dedicate to a real euro slider ( 8 to 10 foot slider ) then there are quite a few out on the secondary market for 30 to 40 cents on the dollar. I just looked at a smaller scm slider ( with the scoring attachemnt ) that only has a 52" throw ( great for crosscutting 4x8's but not ripping them using the slider ) that was in very decent shape. it was going for 3k.

lou

[Gary Curtis]

Or check this thread. Especially the comments near the end from Format saw owners.

sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24449&highlight=KUFO

[Gary Curtis]

This might work better ----
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24449

I wrote the question on SMC. Based on answers and some emails with responders, I bought a General (of Canada) 350 with sliding table. These responders don't own the General w/slider but have used it. And both had experience with the Altendorf and Martin, to which they favorably compared the General. Rather than shoot my mouth off, I'll wait a month after I take delivery to make recommendations to others. My total package came to $3500 w/o blades. The price of the European models was beyond my ability. Look at the weight of a Felder or a Knapp or Mini-Max and you get a hint of where the expense is. Knapp ensures the flatness and stability of tops by doing all welding UNDER WATER to eliminate heat stressing.

The issue is, can you afford such levels of quality?

Gary Curtis

[Richard Wolf]

Jay, I am constantly playing this over in my mind just as you are. Top quality and top price vs. useable quality and reasonable price.
Let me say first that I do not own a euro slider, I have a Powermatic 66 with a large outfeed table, (4' x 6') and use a roller stand for infeed. While I don't process sheet goods daily, but when I do this set up works very well for me.
I think it really depends on how much money you have to spend on your equipment. I know alot of woodworkers that have $10,000 and up sliders, I think the quality of a cabinet from my shop will look just like a cabinet from their shop, so what is the justification? Speed, maybe. Safety, maybe. Ease of use, maybe.
I don't know that you are concerned with speed. Everyone is concerned with safety, but to what lenght, everyone doesn't own a Sawstop. Ease of use, at what price. Like you said, my PM66 is $2,500 vs a MiniMax 9' slider for $12,000. None of the reasons above could justify spending $10,000 which could be spent on all the other stuff you may need.
It is a very difficult choice that we all have to make. No different than buying a Honda or a BMW, they both get you there, just depends on the type of ride you are looking for.

Believe me, I could argue for the other side as well and have some Minimax machines.
If you have the money and want the quality, spend the money, but don't feel that you must have it or you will never be able to produce quality work.

Just my $.02

Richard

[Jay Brewer]

Thanks for the reponces, I know the Euro is a better design. What i was wondering is what makes the Euros cost so much more than than an American Saw, besides the sliding table and a riveing knife. there is no doubt it is far superior in handeling sheet goods, that dosent make it worth $8000 and beyond

[lou sansone]

Thanks for the reponces, I know the Euro is a better design. What i was wondering is what makes the Euros cost so much more than than an American Saw, besides the sliding table and a riveing knife. there is no doubt it is far superior in handeling sheet goods, that dosent make it worth $8000 and beyond

I tend to agree with you on this one, but it is useless to argue the point since we really can't set the prices for new machines. But we can look for them for cents on the dollar on the secondary market. happy hunting


BTW there is a nice mini max s 300 w slider on that internet auction site that I can't mention here because it is against the rules. but I am sure you can figure it out. the price seems very low. might be worth taking a look

lou

[Roy Wall]

I'll pose another option for you.
Guys - If I am way off base, let be know.....:confused:

A lot of WW'ers on this forum rave about the "EZ" or the "Festool" system for cutting sheet goods.........why not check out this route??? Then you just have $500-1000 invested in these systems that seem to be quite good at this sort of thing--- Plus you get to keep your TS!:)

[Joe Spear]

I agree about the Festool circular saw and guide. I have cut up sheets of plywood for large bookcases with the Festool, and they came out exactly the sizes I needed with no adjustments on the tablesaw. There are also other guided circular saw systems that may do the trick. Even if you use a regular circular saw with a clamped straight edge, you can at least break down the sheets to sizes that are manageable on the tablesaw.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Thanks for the reponces, I know the Euro is a better design. What i was wondering is what makes the Euros cost so much more than than an American Saw, besides the sliding table and a riveing knife. there is no doubt it is far superior in handeling sheet goods, that dosent make it worth $8000 and beyond
Jay,
An American style CS is nothing more than a steel box, a top with a hole in it and a motor hung in it attached to a blade. It has been the same design since what the 1920's?? The EFSTS is much more "complex" It consists of a welded frame usually a "T" shaped base, a large solid cast iron top, usually two motor (one for the main blade & one for the scorer), a very large trunion, a extruded aluminum carriage system & slider top with guide ways, bearing (linear or roller), crosscut fences & rip fences......... you get my point.

Some people think they are just for sheetgoods, which they are simple the best at, but they equally excell at soild stock also. You can rip with the slider, or the rip fence and still be able to crosscut at the same time. They keep you far away from the blade, are easier on your back, are extremely accurate, versatile and just plain fun to use. I you ever use one you will laugh at a American CS and will never go back.

They are much more expensive and good things always are. Only you can justify the cost, whether you are a pro or going pro, have some money and like nice tools or simple like the safety & accuracy they provide. If someone says "oh I am not going to pay for a safer saw" then just ask someone who has had an accident and let them tell you how much there digits are worth to them.

There also are many companies and saws to choose from. My advice is not only look at the saw but the company that stands behind it.

[Chris Giles]

Jay,
I'm big on euro-sliders because I've had an SCM since I opened for business 15 years ago. The advantages are as follows:

-A true industrial quality machine, everything is heavier, stronger and more accurately machined.

-Much safer; My employees love to use it because there hands never get near the blade. Never an injury in 15 years!

-Squareness of panels quickly becomes a non-issue. Once it is set up, everything is perfectly square, all the time. You don't have to finesse the panel one way or another to get good results.

-Speed; Sheet stock is very heavy and this can really slow you down. I can complete a cutlist for a dozen cabinets in one morning by myself, no sweat.

-Capacity; You know how you occasionally have to crosscut that 12' long 3"thick by 16" wide hunk of White Oak? No problem. As long as it doesn't tip the saw over, it will cut it easily and perfectly square.

In my shop, I still have a 10" saw to supplement the slider. Operations like dadoing, grooving, smaller angle cuts, and most of my ripping are better left to the smaller saw to save on set-up time. Also, the slider is right tilt, and the 10" is left, so we've got both bases covered. I have 10' roller conveyers inboard and outboard on the slider to futher assist with sheet stock. If you are committed to woodworking for a living and have the room and budget, get the slider. It will put many times more money in your pocket over time, than it will cost you up front.

[lou sansone]

Jay,
An American style CS is nothing more than a steel box, a top with a hole in it and a motor hung in it attached to a blade. It has been the same design since what the 1920's?? The EFSTS is much more "complex" It consists of a welded frame usually a "T" shaped base, a large solid cast iron top, usually two motor (one for the main blade & one for the scorer), a very large trunion, a extruded aluminum carriage system & slider top with guide ways, bearing (linear or roller), crosscut fences & rip fences......... you get my point.

Some people think they are just for sheetgoods, which they are simple the best at, but they equally excell at soild stock also. You can rip with the slider, or the rip fence and still be able to crosscut at the same time. They keep you far away from the blade, are easier on your back, are extremely accurate, versatile and just plain fun to use. I you ever use one you will laugh at a American CS and will never go back.

They are much more expensive and good things always are. Only you can justify the cost, whether you are a pro or going pro, have some money and like nice tools or simple like the safety & accuracy they provide. If someone says "oh I am not going to pay for a safer saw" then just ask someone who has had an accident and let them tell you how much there digits are worth to them.

There also are many companies and saws to choose from. My advice is not only look at the saw but the company that stands behind it.


not to start a fight here paul.... but I just did a pretty detailed autopsy of a SCM s15 slider that I was thinking about buying and and it is no different than my rockwell RT-40, except it has a scoring motor added ( in the same hole as is in the RT-40 casting) The trunions are exactly the same, as is the riving knife attachment and the blade spindle. the raising and lowering is exactly the same size screw, etc. The only difference is that they chopped off the right hand side of the base and stuck a slider on it. The slider was pretty poorly engineered and unconfortable to use. Having said that, it does not mean that the mm, felder, martin, or the other european saws are the same as the scm, in fact I know that they are not. The point was that not all sliders are created equal and some are not much better than the plain old american TS.

[John Renzetti]

not to start a fight here paul.... but I just did a pretty detailed autopsy of a SCM s15 slider that I was thinking about buying and and it is no different than my rockwell RT-40, except it has a scoring motor added ( in the same hole as is in the RT-40 casting) The trunions are exactly the same, as is the riving knife attachment and the blade spindle. the raising and lowering is exactly the same size screw, etc. The only difference is that they chopped off the right hand side of the base and stuck a slider on it. The slider was pretty poorly engineered and unconfortable to use. Having said that, it does not mean that the mm, felder, martin, or the other european saws are the same as the scm, in fact I know that they are not. The point was that not all sliders are created equal and some are not much better than the plain old american TS.

Hi Lou, There is a good chance that your old RT-40 was made by SCM in Italy. SCM used to make some equipment for Delta/Rockwell: I've seen shapers and bandsaws with the Delta tag that were made by SCM. Delta had a slider a number of years ago that might be exactly like the S15 you looked at.
One question was this S15 a true format type slider where the sliding table edge goes next to the blade or was it simply a saw with a sliding table attached to where the extension table would be.
Actually SCM is the parent company of SCMI and Minimax. The SCMI line now is real heavy duty industrial stuff.
And you are correct some of the older smaller sliders were really not any better than the Americn cabinet saws. But for somebody like Jay who will be processing some sheet goods, his increase in productivety and accuracy will probably increase enough to have a payback on the saw in a couple of years. A good friend whose work as appeared in Arhcitectural Digest was interviewed a few years ago about going from a cabinet saw to a slider (in his case it was a used Altendorf). He said that he felt his productivety not to mention increased accuracy went up nearly 50% with the slider.
Getting back to cost, the slider does represent a good bit of the cost of the saw. On a good slider designing and building the sliding table portion that will remain smooth and accurate year after year does take some doing. These things aren't light. I think the sliding table and carriage on my machine is in the 800lb range. On the smaller Hammer that Jay mentioned it is probably about 400lb.
BTW, I know a guy in CO that is selling his older Martin T-75 to buy a new T-73. Are you interested? :)
take care,
John

[Jack Easton]

I think most of you know where I stand on sliders: Get One!
But it is hard to put a dollar figure on the difference in cost to a cabinet saw. I can produce parts (both solid wood and sheet goods) 50% faster with much more accuracy and repeatability on my slider than I can with a cabinet saw. That said, if you do one job at a time, that extra four hours of cutting one day may not make that much of a difference. If finishing a job means getting paid to move on to the next job that gets you paid again, then after ten jobs you have saved a weeks worth of time. If you are doing four jobs a month... Hopefully you get the point. If time = money is not an issue, then, How much is safety worth? or saving your back? And here's the big one: How much more fun is it to work with a slider?
These are questions that only each individual who contemplates this decision can answer for themselves. We all have our financial thresholds and shop priorities. As with anything: get the most you can afford comfortably. Unless the missus has anything to say, then you may have to get more creative.

[lou sansone]

Hi Lou, There is a good chance that your old RT-40 was made by SCM in Italy. SCM used to make some equipment for Delta/Rockwell: I've seen shapers and bandsaws with the Delta tag that were made by SCM. Delta had a slider a number of years ago that might be exactly like the S15 you looked at.
One question was this S15 a true format type slider where the sliding table edge goes next to the blade or was it simply a saw with a sliding table attached to where the extension table would be.
Actually SCM is the parent company of SCMI and Minimax. The SCMI line now is real heavy duty industrial stuff.
And you are correct some of the older smaller sliders were really not any better than the Americn cabinet saws. But for somebody like Jay who will be processing some sheet goods, his increase in productivety and accuracy will probably increase enough to have a payback on the saw in a couple of years. A good friend whose work as appeared in Arhcitectural Digest was interviewed a few years ago about going from a cabinet saw to a slider (in his case it was a used Altendorf). He said that he felt his productivety not to mention increased accuracy went up nearly 50% with the slider.
Getting back to cost, the slider does represent a good bit of the cost of the saw. On a good slider designing and building the sliding table portion that will remain smooth and accurate year after year does take some doing. These things aren't light. I think the sliding table and carriage on my machine is in the 800lb range. On the smaller Hammer that Jay mentioned it is probably about 400lb.
BTW, I know a guy in CO that is selling his older Martin T-75 to buy a new T-73. Are you interested? :)
take care,
John


hi john
yea your right about all of that. that scm was just a dressed up rockwell or the rockwell was just a naked scm.. wasn't a bad saw, but I knew that it was no felder. If I was in the business where I was processing a lot of sheet stock, I don't think for a minute I would not be running a slider. they are made for the job and they do it with perfection. Sliders are also very safe to run from what I can see. Thanks as always for your comments. I am sure paul will also straighten me out :rolleyes:

take care
lou

[Mark Singer]

I tend to agree with you on this one, but it is useless to argue the point since we really can't set the prices for new machines. But we can look for them for cents on the dollar on the secondary market. happy hunting


BTW there is a nice mini max s 300 w slider on that internet auction site that I can't mention here because it is against the rules. but I am sure you can figure it out. the price seems very low. might be worth taking a look

lou

I just sent Lou a PM....the current auction really looks like a scam...the very same saw sold 3 weeks ago to a guy in Ca....same pictures and description...caution!!!

[Doug Jones from Oregon]

I'm going to be contrary on this one! (What else is new!?)

If I read your post correctly, your main interest in the Euro saw is to be able better process the cutting of full sheet of plywood. At the cost of several 1000's of dollars, have you considered a CNC Router.

In a past life, I worked in a shop with many saws, including a Altendorf slider and many large table saws, but after purchasing our first CNC Router, we soon took most panel cutting jobs in that direction. It not only was very accurate, but we were able to run all necessary secondary processes, such as rabits and dadoes, pilot holes for drawer runners, shelf pins, European hinges.. Then throw in the ease of being able to machine curves or circles...our offerings became much more extended.

We once built out a display system for Nintendo that was not only curved from end to end, but also vertically with all parts machined on the cnc...went together like a dream when assembly time came.

And, with Shopbot being so reasonable...I would not buy a Euro saw for my shop today...but I would keep the cabinet saw for the appropriate jobs.

[Paul B. Cresti]

hi john
yea your right about all of that. that scm was just a dressed up rockwell or the rockwell was just a naked scm.. wasn't a bad saw, but I knew that it was no felder. If I was in the business where I was processing a lot of sheet stock, I don't think for a minute I would not be running a slider. they are made for the job and they do it with perfection. Sliders are also very safe to run from what I can see. Thanks as always for your comments. I am sure paul will also straighten me out :rolleyes:

take care
lou
Lou,
My ears were ringing! I actually saw a Delta/SCM slider for sale recently. I think it was X-factory but yes it was a Delta slider made by SCM. You are correct though that all sliders are not created equal though. There are some bad ones and very good ones. Copies are starting to come out from third world countries but they have not caught up to the Europeans quite yet. The American CS is copied so much now that just about anyone can make it and just about everyone makes a good one too.

My point I have been trying to make is that EFSTS is not just good for sheetgoods, well actually great for it, but just as good for solid stock. In addition it is a crosscutting dream, no matter what piece you through at it. If you get a long slider it excels at straight line ripping using effortless slider. Ripping with gives you two choices: with the slider or the rip fence. I just do not know of any other machine that can give you this kind of versatility, ease of use and accuracy. I do believe son enough thet will be down in price so that just about anyone will begin to make the conversion to one. Not everyone will go for the long sliders but short ones with 5ft tables work great too. Most importantly I really like my fingers :D and any piece of machinery that removes my digits form the path of one angry blade is good in my book.

[Tim Olson]

Jay,
Just a quick note.I own a minimax cu350 with the slider and I love this machine and its capabilities.But recently I had a project that required ripping and cross cutting approx.70 sheets of 3/4" birch plywood.So I had the sheets set on 24" tall tables when they were delivered,and since I am a one man shop, I resented the thought of muscling all those sheets onto the machine for the rips and then again for the crosscuts.So I decided to use my Festool plunge saw with the guide rail system and I was really impressed with how quickly and easily I was able to complete the processing of the sheet goods and with alot less labor.
You might want to look into this system it could save you thousands of dollars.If you live near northern Illinois I would let you come by and see both systems in use. Good luck-Tim Olson

[Steve Stube]

If I was to be in the market for a machine to handle sheet goods at the kind of figures tossed out in this thread you can bet I would be looking very closely at the ShopBot CNC router/spindle line up. Yes, Douglas Jones I second your input. For those concerned about the digits, stay at the computer station or keep your hands in your pockets until the router stops rotating. I'm a retired hobbyist that is more likely to add CNC capability in the metal working (machining or sheetmetal punching) end of my shop activities, still, the ShopBot would be fun to play with. I have several saws I could use to handle sheet goods including Delta 10" unisaw and a 12/14 tilting arbor tablesaw but I use a late 70's Craftsman or an older still Craftsman cabinet saw, both 10" and surrounded by sufficient support for handling 4' X 8' sheets. With a bolt on right side table I can set a fence at > 5' from the blade. Nothing fancy - it just works, for me.

Jay and Tim, welcome to SMC

[Gary Curtis]

Search for item#
7556418904

Bidding is currently at $4900.
This is an Italian SCMI slider. I would imagine that the sheer size would be a restriction in many if not most shops.

Gary Curtis
:rolleyes:

[Charlie Plesums]

I wanted to be able to work alone when I retired to woodworking (no employees). I was ready to buy a CNC machine - $25K range seemed to be a good entry point for a commercial grade machine. Until I found that I also needed a 15 HP vacuum system to hold down nested parts. 15 HP is not something that can be run in a residential area... both from 3 phase and noise issues.

Then I looked at combo machines, and bought a large MiniMax. I calibrated it to .004 inches in 8 feet and 4 right angles. Recently (10 months after calibration) I found a panel that was 1/16 inch wider at one end than at the other. Panic. 1/16 inch off in 8 feet. I checked calibration again and error less than .001 inches. Bottom line, when I did a better job holding the panel down to eliminate warp, it cut square. Point for accuracy.

On my table saw, working alone, I found that I had to allow 20 minutes for a precise cut on a full sheet of plywood. On my first commission after getting the miniMax, I cut 21 final pieces from 2 full sheets of plywood, then checked the time. 20 minutes for all 21 pieces, with better precision than I could get with any amount of effort on my table saw. Point for performance.

The investment was huge, but less than I would have spent on overhead of having an employee to help with the sheet goods. I'm sold.

[lou sansone]

I was reading this post again and had a thought ..

for all you guys that seem to build cabinets with sheet stock for a living or some big home project, what about using a vertical panel saw for all of that? Is this just old hat? Seems like some of the shops I know about still use them. The do seem pretty compact.

lou

[Paul B. Cresti]

I was reading this post again and had a thought ..

for all you guys that seem to build cabinets with sheet stock for a living or some big home project, what about using a vertical panel saw for all of that? Is this just old hat? Seems like some of the shops I know about still use them. The do seem pretty compact.

lou
Lou,
If you are a large pro shop I agree the only sensible solution, if you want to make money that is, is a cnc router. A shop that size might still have a EFSTS for additional backup or support. The vertical saws do not seem very accurate unless you are willing to spend money on a good one. A pro friend of mine has a Holzma (sp?) and I believe is cost him around 25k or so. Since it is dedicated to panel work it is a good investment. I tend to think the EFSTS fits well in a small pro shop, where you could be cutting panels one day or solid stock the next. I know there are quicker ways to cut solid stock (rip saw....) but a EFSTS is very good at a lot of things for us small guys.

Now I always joke about wanting a SCM Vanguard or Martin but the truth of the matter is it really will not do anymore for me than my current MM S35 does. I would love to have a saw with electronics, it could very well help my speed and add some accuracy, but it will still do the same thing I can do now. Heck, me being the way I am, I might actually by one just because I like them (but most likely never a Vanguard or Martin unless...). The really high price EFSTS are kind of a luxury item. If I was really serious about making only cabinets the best "business" decision would be to get a CNC router before spending 40k on a EFSTS.

Back to the topic?? , I can't even remember what I was talking about anymore.... oh i remember.. Yes I am a Giants fan....oh that wasn't it.....I like coffee ... oh wrong again..... oh yes the EFSTS in small shops. My saw has worked well for me becuase it can do so much: rip, bevel, crosscut, edge, square any piece of solid or panel stock I can throw at it.... and it does everything very well while no function being subservient to the other. I can even perform ripping and crosscutting at the same time!! This all happens with the upmost of safety because my hands are no where near the blade and by the way I can put a 14" blade on this sucker. I may be young in relation to some of you guys here but i have used a fair share of equipment and I can say now when I turn on my saw I have no fear of getting injured and not one single inclination that the cut will not be perfect everytime.

[Frank Pellow]

I wanted to be able to work alone when I retired to woodworking (no employees). I was ready to buy a CNC machine - $25K range seemed to be a good entry point for a commercial grade machine. Until I found that I also needed a 15 HP vacuum system to hold down nested parts. 15 HP is not something that can be run in a residential area... both from 3 phase and noise issues.

Then I looked at combo machines, and bought a large MiniMax. I calibrated it to .004 inches in 8 feet and 4 right angles. Recently (10 months after calibration) I found a panel that was 1/16 inch wider at one end than at the other. Panic. 1/16 inch off in 8 feet. I checked calibration again and error less than .001 inches. Bottom line, when I did a better job holding the panel down to eliminate warp, it cut square. Point for accuracy.

On my table saw, working alone, I found that I had to allow 20 minutes for a precise cut on a full sheet of plywood. On my first commission after getting the miniMax, I cut 21 final pieces from 2 full sheets of plywood, then checked the time. 20 minutes for all 21 pieces, with better precision than I could get with any amount of effort on my table saw. Point for performance.

The investment was huge, but less than I would have spent on overhead of having an employee to help with the sheet goods. I'm sold.
I am quite sure that I could get the same results using my special home-made saw horses for panels and my Festool circular saw and guide rails.

It would be interesting to sacrifice two sheets of plywood to such a test but I don't really have money to throw away one that. What I will do Charlie, is keep your results in mind and if I have any projecxt that comes up where I need to cut approximately that number of pieces, then I will record how long it takes me and report back.

[jack duren]

lou sansone...a lot of shops use one method or another for ripping/crosscutting carcass parts. ive worked around about every piece of equipment out there. vertical panel saws are a big part of a lot of shops. more so than horizontal panel saws. accuracy is based on the user. maintain the machine its flawless, abuse it and the results will show.

sliders and cabinet saws go side by side in my experience. wouldnt have one without the other and first comith the tablesaw;) .

cnc's are making waves right now but 3 out a 4 shops i know that have em are using them more for outsourcing or for home depot/box cabinets for a cheaper apartment cabinet jobs. not that they arent using them for custom cabinets but the machines arent cheap and because there faster at cutting parts you have to find other sources of income to pay fer em....jack

[Rob Russell]

I am quite sure that I could get the same results using my special home-made saw horses for panels and my Festool circular saw and guide rails.

It would be interesting to sacrifice two sheets of plywood to such a test but I don't really have money to throw away one that. What I will do Charlie, is keep your results in mind and if I have any projecxt that comes up where I need to cut approximately that number of pieces, then I will record how long it takes me and report back.

Frank,

How do you guarantee 90 degree square cuts with that system?

Rob

[Frank Pellow]

Frank,

How do you guarantee 90 degree square cuts with that system?

Rob
Rob, I have had pretty good luck and the furniture grade plywood that I have worked with with the my Festool GCSS so far has had square corners (and I always check).

Once, I screwed up a cut (my fault, not Festool's) and had to resquare things. That was not a problem because I own an angle unit attachment (see: http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=8&prodid=491588) that fits onto my guide rail.

[Burt Waddell]

I've recently purchased and am starting to use the EZ Smart system in my cabinet shop. Accuracy is great and speed it also good. My first impression was that it was awkward but I' ve gotten better acquainted and it is great. Sadly, some people foolishly rule it out because it uses the lowly circular saw and a guide. Sometimes the best things in life are the simpliest ones.

[Sam Blasco]

I am quite sure that I could get the same results using my special home-made saw horses for panels and my Festool circular saw and guide rails.

It would be interesting to sacrifice two sheets of plywood to such a test but I don't really have money to throw away one that. What I will do Charlie, is keep your results in mind and if I have any projecxt that comes up where I need to cut approximately that number of pieces, then I will record how long it takes me and report back.

Charlie, Looks like a challenge has been made. It would be really cool if we could set it up side by side, like those lumber jack contests. And let me add this, I can cut the parts for an average 10x10 kitchen, bases and uppers, in 45 minutes to an hour, on my slider. That's about 10 sheets broken down. Not sure it would be fair for me to enter the contest due to my experience, and I've known cut men who would laugh at the time it takes me! Sounds like it could be fun, though. :)

[Dino Makropoulos]

Sounds like it could be fun, though. :)

hm!!!:rolleyes::cool: ;) :eek: :D

[John Renzetti]

Charlie, Looks like a challenge has been made. It would be really cool if we could set it up side by side, like those lumber jack contests. And let me add this, I can cut the parts for an average 10x10 kitchen, bases and uppers, in 45 minutes to an hour, on my slider. That's about 10 sheets broken down. Not sure it would be fair for me to enter the contest due to my experience, and I've known cut men who would laugh at the time it takes me! Sounds like it could be fun, though. :)

Hi Sam, You know I think the challenge is possible. Could be a simultaneous webcast. Of course we could spice it up like one of those World Wide Wrestling Federation matches. You could be in Charlie's corner and we'll get Bob Marino from Festool in Frank's corner. I think we have Pay Per View possibilities if we do this right. "And in this corner, with his awesome weapon, the CU410, the Terrible Texan, "Chainsaw Charlie" Plessums. And over in this corner, the Mad Canadian, Frank "the Log Crusher" Pellow." This could be big Sam.
In all seriousness, as much as I like Frank and Festool, my money will go on Charlie. (we need to beef him up a little so he hand handle all those 100lb panels at once.)
take care,
John

[Burt Waddell]

Dino,

Why not make it a 3 way?

[Paul B. Cresti]

What happened to this discussion, geez I do not check in for a few days and everyone is flexing their muscles! By the way guess who I vote for .....
My money is on the Italian tools...... Guess who wins the Formula championship? .........;)

[Dino Makropoulos]

Dino,

Why not make it a 3 way?

Hm!!!:confused: :rolleyes: :D
We have to ask Frank first.:cool:

[Jim Becker]

This must be broadcast in Hi-Def...it will make the sawdust experience more realistic and allow views to actually see the minute differences in the cuts... :D :D :D

[Sam Blasco]

We should probably include Neanders, too, though I don't think CNC or beam saws should be allowed. I wasn't thinking of a brand contest, but a style of working contest (ie. slider vs guide rail). I would be happy to coach anyone on the slider side, but I do think it could be huge. Maybe we could coordinate something for IWF next year (you could definitely play with the closeness to the WWF acronym.)

[Lee DeRaud]

We should probably include Neanders, too, though I don't think CNC or beam saws should be allowed. I wasn't thinking of a brand contest, but a style of working contest (ie. slider vs guide rail). I would be happy to coach anyone on the slider side, but I do think it could be huge. Maybe we could coordinate something for IWF next year (you could definitely play with the closeness to the WWF acronym.)I don't think you really want to infringe on that particular trademark: they've got fangs and claws and they're not afraid to use them.:cool:
(And no, I'm not talking about the wrestling people.:p)

[John Renzetti]

What happened to this discussion, geez I do not check in for a few days and everyone is flexing their muscles! By the way guess who I vote for .....
My money is on the Italian tools...... Guess who wins the Formula championship? .........;)

Hi Paul, Glad you chimed in. Sam and I are working on some kind of slot for you on this production. Sam said we could dress you up and you could walk around the ring with the sign indicating the Round. Since I know you, I nixed that idea. How about side commentary. I'm sure you could really come up with some colorful things to say that would most likely really tick Frank off, not to mention cause a diplomatic rift between the USA and Canada. :)

[Lee DeRaud]

My money is on the Italian tools...... Guess who wins the Formula championship? .........;)You mean the one won by the French car with the Spanish driver? Whoops.:eek:

[Jack Easton]

I can cut the parts for an average 10x10 kitchen, bases and uppers, in 45 minutes to an hour, on my slider. That's about 10 sheets broken down.

What's up with that, Sam? You must be out of practice now that you aren't slicing it up every day anymore.:D

[Paul B. Cresti]

Hi Paul, Glad you chimed in. Sam and I are working on some kind of slot for you on this production. Sam said we could dress you up and you could walk around the ring with the sign indicating the Round. Since I know you, I nixed that idea. How about side commentary. I'm sure you could really come up with some colorful things to say that would most likely really tick Frank off, not to mention cause a diplomatic rift between the USA and Canada. :)

Yes I have some very strong opinions on subjects that matter to me. Heck even my own opinions sometimes anger me. I do not think people could handle the "truth" anyway....hmm... wasn't that a line in a movie????

[Dino Makropoulos]

Dino,

Why not make it a 3 way?

I give up on the challenge.:(
This is just... talk.:rolleyes:

Here is a real challenge.:D
My F/ferrari for the slider.:eek:
Not the whole saw. I don't need one.
Just the slider. :cool:
I have an idea fot it.:D

[markus shaffer]

Wait a minute...

I vaguely remember Paul and I were going to get rid of these European monsters and invest in a pair of Skil XShop machines.. I think if there is going to be a contest, Paul should be using the XShop.. Seems like in the time someone measured and broke down a sheet of ply with a guided saw, Paul could have tablesawed, routed, sanded, scrollsawed and finally even drilled a few holes...

http://www.skilxshop.com/


I have faith in you Paul..


-Markus

[Dino Makropoulos]

With no lifting, measuring, clamping and taking the panels for a ride ...:rolleyes:

85% of cutting time vs 40-60% with a slider.
I can tell you that it takes me less than 3 minutes to break down sheet goods for cabinet parts. And that was before.:cool:
But before someone complaint for my shameless advertising and promotion of the DWC...draw up the cutting list.
My offer is good.
The Fiat for a slider.(keep the cabinet)
I need a new car soon.
And I can make a nice "sliding desk" now that I'm getting older.:D

Now.If I had a commercial shop, the slider would be the first tool in the shop.
What I like about the efsts is it's accuracy,safety and ease of use.
But the most important feature was the depth of cut for furniture parts.
Great for tapered and compound cuts.
With all that said, the challenge is still on.

[Sam Blasco]

What's up with that, Sam? You must be out of practice now that you aren't slicing it up every day anymore.:D

What can I say? Practice or not, it stinks getting old.:cool:

Sounds like this challenge could get serious and I'm beginning to think it would be cool to actually do something. I've got the room in my shop. Maybe someone in the Austin area might have a saw and guiderail system, they could bring it over for an afternoon and we could play. I'm curious now. I've already got the Festool vac system, so all that would be needed are the saw and guidrail. Or, in the other situation, I have a circular saw if someone wants to bring just a guiderail. I'd be willing to supply all the sheetgoods that would be necessary.

[Frank Pellow]

I wanted to be able to work alone when I retired to woodworking (no employees). I was ready to buy a CNC machine - $25K range seemed to be a good entry point for a commercial grade machine. Until I found that I also needed a 15 HP vacuum system to hold down nested parts. 15 HP is not something that can be run in a residential area... both from 3 phase and noise issues.

Then I looked at combo machines, and bought a large MiniMax. I calibrated it to .004 inches in 8 feet and 4 right angles. Recently (10 months after calibration) I found a panel that was 1/16 inch wider at one end than at the other. Panic. 1/16 inch off in 8 feet. I checked calibration again and error less than .001 inches. Bottom line, when I did a better job holding the panel down to eliminate warp, it cut square. Point for accuracy.

On my table saw, working alone, I found that I had to allow 20 minutes for a precise cut on a full sheet of plywood. On my first commission after getting the miniMax, I cut 21 final pieces from 2 full sheets of plywood, then checked the time. 20 minutes for all 21 pieces, with better precision than I could get with any amount of effort on my table saw. Point for performance.

The investment was huge, but less than I would have spent on overhead of having an employee to help with the sheet goods. I'm sold.



I am quite sure that I could get the same results using my special home-made saw horses for panels and my Festool circular saw and guide rails.

It would be interesting to sacrifice two sheets of plywood to such a test but I don't really have money to throw away one that. What I will do Charlie, is keep your results in mind and if I have any projecxt that comes up where I need to cut approximately that number of pieces, then I will record how long it takes me and report back.

Well, I finally had the chance to try this and, I was not quite as fast a you were Charlie. See the thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=31900

[nic obie]

BTW there is a nice mini max s 300 w slider on that internet auction site that I can't mention here because it is against the rules.

lou

Hi lou,

I also find that irritating and can see no reason for it. The best I can figure is that one of the super mods once had a bad experience with ebay.

I for one would like to see the links. Why make it hard on the rest of us? It's fun to look at what's out there...

[Dev Emch]

Charlie, Looks like a challenge has been made. It would be really cool if we could set it up side by side, like those lumber jack contests. And let me add this, I can cut the parts for an average 10x10 kitchen, bases and uppers, in 45 minutes to an hour, on my slider. That's about 10 sheets broken down. Not sure it would be fair for me to enter the contest due to my experience, and I've known cut men who would laugh at the time it takes me! Sounds like it could be fun, though. :)

If time is of the essence, your not going to beat a man with experience esp. if he or she is using a CNC Martin T-73 or one of the two new Striebig Panel saws. What I find the most time consuming about this aspect is 1). Working out the cut list., 2). Hauling and staging sheet goods for the cut and moving cut items into storage or on carts., 3). Twiddling with the setup for various cuts and double checking measurements. Item #3 is where the CNC features really come in handy.

Are these saws expensive? Heck Yes! But it was Henry Ford who said... The problem with not buying a machine tool and doing without is that you eventually spend the money anyway but have no machine in the end. There is a reason Martin is still in business and its not the hobbyist.

[brent lenthall]

One thing to consider: What do you build? Cabinets, furniture, stairs and millwork, etc. To cost justify, your equipment purchases need to fit your product.

European saws/sliders are first for sheet goods. In Europe (and some US markets) the majority of cabinets are frameless. The panels must be square and have smooth cuts to produce a "true" cabinet and provide a good surface to edgeband. The only solid stock is for doors, although many are slab edgebanded doors. If you're producing these type of cabinets a slider, panel or CNC will allow a quality product to be built much faster.

In my case I build beaded face frame cabinets with inset doors. The sheet stock is secondary for most projects. Paneled ends, 5 piece doors, etc. (all solid stock). Interiors, shelves, narrow reveals are plywood, but less visual and a 1/16th or 1/32nd variance doesn't effect the overall project.

I'd like to have a slider to dedicate to cutting my sheet goods, SLR ipping, etc, but right now I have other areas that will make a bigger impact to the bottom line (Hoffman notching machine, wide belt, etc).