Current Handsaw Info?

[Steve Mathews]

I'm about to purchase my first dovetail, carcass and tenon handsaws but some of them mentioned in my search are no longer made. The ones made by Lie Nielsen seem like a good fit and the prices seem reasonable. Are there others in that category? Should I go with the tapered or straight version? Any better alternatives at a slightly higher price point?

[Jim Koepke]

Steve,

Currently my three favorite saws are from Ron Bontz. Two were a kit purchase and one was a gift from a friend I haven't met yet.

He often posts on SMC.

Ron seems very willing to work with folks to get a saw that fits their application.

Oops! Just went to his web site to get the URL and it appears he is not taking orders at this time.

The choice of straight or tapered is up to the user. Those with a tendency to cut to deep on the far side of a dovetail or tenon may find a tapered saw helpful in avoiding such errors.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

The Lie Neilson are very nice. For me, the Lee Valley were and excellent value. I have the dovetail, crosscut and rip tenon. All very nice saws and the 3 of them cost about what one boutique saw does.

I still want one of Ron Bontz' though!

Fred

[lowell holmes]

I bought a 16"x4" saw plate and back from Ron complete with saw nuts. It is a tenon sawing machine.

I get straight fast tenons with it. I made a curly maple handle. Use your imagination and have some fun.

[David Eisenhauer]

There are several different brands of new manufactured saws that are considered to offer good service, with some saying (perhaps) the Lee Valley saws offering "the best bang for the buck" due to their lower cost than some of the others. Many have said their Lie Nielsen saws work just fine, and at a lower cost than some of the even higher priced boutique saws. It is sort of a how much do you want to pay kind of thing because most of the better known saws will probably get the job done. I would call at least one of the saw makers and ask him "why should I buy your saw instead of the others?" I would also not buy all three saws you mentioned at one time unless I had tried someone else's saw out and knew I liked that saw. I would try one of the saws from a particular maker to see how I liked the balance, action and fit of the handle before jumping in on three saws at the same time from the same maker. Look up Derek's "In The wood Shop" website for a review/comparison of some saws he owns and/or has used in the past. Having said that, the better known saws should sell for a decent percentage of their new price if you later decide to try something else. If you let folks know where you are located, maybe someone can invite you over to try out a saw or two to help you make up your mind.

[lowell holmes]

In addition to the 16X4 saw I wrote about earlier, I have three Lie Nielsen saws. a dovetail, tenon rip and tenon crosscut.

I have a thing for quality saws.:)

[Steve Mathews]

There are several different brands of new manufactured saws that are considered to offer good service, with some saying (perhaps) the Lee Valley saws offering "the best bang for the buck" due to their lower cost than some of the others. Many have said their Lie Nielsen saws work just fine, and at a lower cost than some of the even higher priced boutique saws. It is sort of a how much do you want to pay kind of thing because most of the better known saws will probably get the job done. I would call at least one of the saw makers and ask him "why should I buy your saw instead of the others?" I would also not buy all three saws you mentioned at one time unless I had tried someone else's saw out and knew I liked that saw. I would try one of the saws from a particular maker to see how I liked the balance, action and fit of the handle before jumping in on three saws at the same time from the same maker. Look up Derek's "In The wood Shop" website for a review/comparison of some saws he owns and/or has used in the past. Having said that, the better known saws should sell for a decent percentage of their new price if you later decide to try something else. If you let folks know where you are located, maybe someone can invite you over to try out a saw or two to help you make up your mind.

After reading the above and advice given by RenaissanceWW on YouTube it seems that buying just one of the saws originally mentioned would be the preferred way to go, especially considering my inexperience. I was just trying to save a little money by buying a set. RenaissanceWW recommends getting a carcass saw in the beginning. And unless a better suggestion is offered I'll go with one by LN, probably the non-tapered version for no other reason than it seems to be standard. I would still like to consider other manufacturers but I'm coming short on names. Bontz mentioned above doesn't have anything for sale. A few others mentioned in my search online have since gone out of business. So, are there others that fit into the LN price point or a little higher? It seems unreasonable to me at this point to purchase one of the boutique saws at twice the price. Or will I come to regret that type of thinking?

Unfortunately because of my remote location I don't have ready access to other woodworkers that might allow me to try out their saws.

Edit: Thanks for the heads up on Derek's website. I'm finding there's a lot of good stuff on his website. As an interesting bonus I just discovered that I have an old Disston saw sharpening vise. Didn't know what it was until now.

[David Eisenhauer]

Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen, Grammercy Tools, Ron Bonz, Bad Axe Tools, Rob Cosman are saw manufacturers that come to mind. Many of these may very well have a waiting list or 6-8-10-12 week shipping period and many will cost more than the either the Lie Nielsen or the Lee Valley. As you have mentioned that you consider yourself inexperienced, you may want to look towards the much less expensive Lee Valley saws for a first saw to dip your toes into the water so to speak. Many here have stated complete satisfaction with the cutting performance of the saws. I have no doubt (without having used all of the above and am in no way to be considered an expert of many years standing) that all of the listed saws above will do the job perfectly well, but each users particular experience tends to lean them towards a particular "feel" in a saw that works better for them than a different brand does.

[Steve Mathews]

Based on what I've read it seems that the Veritas saws are the more sensible choice for a first time purchaser. But I can't get past the non-traditional look despite being very satisfied with every Veritas product purchased in the past. So, unless a better idea comes along I will be ordering a LN Crosscut (Carcass?) saw tomorrow morning. I plan to follow that up with a Tenon saw after some use with the Crosscut saw. At that time I'll either get another LN or choose one of the more premium brands. One thing I don't like about some of the later is the embellishments or ornamental engravings put on them. I prefer a more straightforward or plain look. A Dovetail saw may eventually follow depending on how I progress in the craft. Thanks everyone for the comments. It would appear that I have some direction at this point, right or wrong. I'm looking forward to making my first true handsaw cuts, probably some dovetails.

[Jim Koepke]

Based on what I've read it seems that the Veritas saws are the more sensible choice for a first time purchaser. But I can't get past the non-traditional look despite being very satisfied with every Veritas product purchased in the past. So, unless a better idea comes along I will be ordering a LN Crosscut (Carcass?) saw tomorrow morning. I plan to follow that up with a Tenon saw after some use with the Crosscut saw. At that time I'll either get another LN or choose one of the more premium brands. One thing I don't like about some of the later is the embellishments or ornamental engravings put on them. I prefer a more straightforward or plain look. A Dovetail saw may eventually follow depending on how I progress in the craft. Thanks everyone for the comments. It would appear that I have some direction at this point, right or wrong. I'm looking forward to making my first true handsaw cuts, probably some dovetails.

This seems strange to me. The LN is a good choice. How ever if you are looking forward to making some dovetails first, why not purchase a dovetail saw?

We are in agreement on the Veritas saws. Despite their being of the highest quality the aesthetics do not appeal to me. My solution was to purchase a kit and make my own handle:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?249983

There are few pleasures to compare with using one's own creation in one's work.

jtk

[Steve Mathews]

This seems strange to me. The LN is a good choice. How ever if you are looking forward to making some dovetails first, why not purchase a dovetail saw?
...
jtk

RenaissanceWW makes a compelling case in favor of the Carcass saw as a first purchase in at least a couple of his videos. He describes the Dovetail saw as being more dedicated to one purpose while the crosscut saw is more versatile. Makes sense to me but that's why I raised the issue, to see what others think. I realize there is no perfect answer but I was just looking for a direction to get started. The idea of a kit is appealing but for now I just want to get started cutting some wood. Maybe it would be more appropriate for a second or third saw purchase.

[David Eisenhauer]

I did not mean to discourage you from the LN for any "anti LN" reasons, just providing you with some of the general saw information gathered from reading over some of the comments from many users that have responded to these type questions before. You will receive a very well made saw from LN that should provide you with good service for as long as you want. Enjoy it.

[ken hatch]

Based on what I've read it seems that the Veritas saws are the more sensible choice for a first time purchaser. But I can't get past the non-traditional look despite being very satisfied with every Veritas product purchased in the past. So, unless a better idea comes along I will be ordering a LN Crosscut (Carcass?) saw tomorrow morning. I plan to follow that up with a Tenon saw after some use with the Crosscut saw. At that time I'll either get another LN or choose one of the more premium brands. One thing I don't like about some of the later is the embellishments or ornamental engravings put on them. I prefer a more straightforward or plain look. A Dovetail saw may eventually follow depending on how I progress in the craft. Thanks everyone for the comments. It would appear that I have some direction at this point, right or wrong. I'm looking forward to making my first true handsaw cuts, probably some dovetails.

Steve,

You might want to re-think the crosscut filed saw. A rip filed saw is much more useable in the high TPI you find in back saws and if it is to be used for dovetails or tenons it is much preferred. In fact there is little need for a crosscut filed back saw.

ken

[lowell holmes]

Steve,

You might want to re-think the crosscut filed saw. A rip filed saw is much more useable in the high TPI you find in back saws and if it is to be used for dovetails or tenons it is much preferred. In fact there is little need for a crosscut filed back saw.

ken
I agree there is no reason for a cross cut dovetail saw, but I have carcass saws both rip and crosscut. I would not be without them. It's different strokes for different folks. :)

[Steve Mathews]

OK, I'm confused again. I have or had the impression that using a crosscut saw for dovetails was workable although not ideal. I don't mind getting the core set of LN saws but didn't want to commit to that many from one manufacturer without getting a feel for how they fit in my hand, etc. All of the other premium saws have a significant lead time. So, waiting to get one would delay start. It seems to me that I have very little choice if my impatience is a factor.

[ken hatch]

Steve,

Get a 10" to 12" carcass saw filed 12 to 14 PPI Rip. You can make a lot of furniture with that one saw. Cutting everything from small dovetails for keepsake boxes to tenons for chairs and side tables. After that saw everything else is for bragging rights :). Not quite true but other saws just make it easier to build larger furniture or smaller dovetails.

ken

As someone with a full saw till of Bad Axe, LN, Andria, Gramercy, and Veritas saws filed both rip and crosscut can tell you, ninety percent of the time I reach for the Bad Axe 12" rip filed carcass saw for whatever I'm sawing.

[Jim Koepke]

Steve,

You might want to re-think the crosscut filed saw. A rip filed saw is much more useable in the high TPI you find in back saws and if it is to be used for dovetails or tenons it is much preferred. In fact there is little need for a crosscut filed back saw.

ken

+1 on this. A rip cut saw will crosscut better than a crosscut saw will rip.

BTW, my dovetail saws get called to duty a lot on small cuts on the bench top.

One of your first projects should be a set of bench hooks.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I'm really confused now. Isn't the goal to have one or two saws of each? :)

[Steve Mathews]

Ok, so we're talking about a Tenon (rip) saw instead of a Carcass (crosscut) saw for starters? LN only has Dovetail (rip), Carcass (crosscut) and Tenon (rip) saws. All other premium makes have a long lead time.

[Matthew Hills]

I think the long leadtimes you're seeing is because of the recent woodworking shows.

some BadAxe saws look to be available @ Highland Woodworker
Lie Nielsen saws should be available (I've got a small crosscut and also a crosscut carcass saw)
Gramercy saws are available from TFWW (I have the dovetail and the sash saws)
Cosman's saws look to be available, either at his website or through Woodcraft

Matt

[lowell holmes]

Let's really get this string riled up and start talking about D7 and D8 Disstons, just kidding.:)

[Steve Mathews]

I was planning on purchasing the LN saw(s) from Craftsman Studio but I just received an email from them that they are completely out of stock but plan to get a new shipment in July. I'll try the only other dealer, Highland Woodworking tomorrow.

Just found out an interesting spec difference between the LN tapered and non-tapered saws. The later all have a 25% thicker plate than the tapered version, which LN refers to in one their videos as a higher performance blade. Why does a thinner blade make it higher performance?

[Mike Kreinhop]

I was planning on purchasing the LN saw(s) from Craftsman Studio but I just received an email from them that they are completely out of stock but plan to get a new shipment in July. I'll try the only other dealer, Highland Woodworking tomorrow.

Why not buy directly from Lie-Nielsen? There are no stocking distributors where I live, so all of my LN purchases are directly from them.

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4067/saws

[Frederick Skelly]

I was planning on purchasing the LN saw(s) from Craftsman Studio but I just received an email from them that they are completely out of stock but plan to get a new shipment in July. I'll try the only other dealer, Highland Woodworking tomorrow.

Just found out an interesting spec difference between the LN tapered and non-tapered saws. The later all have a 25% thicker plate than the tapered version, which LN refers to in one their videos as a higher performance blade. Why does a thinner blade make it higher performance?

Is there any reason you wouldnt just buy direct from LN? Does it save you shipping or something?

Thinner saw plates may be considered higher performance because there is less resistance (less saw in the cut). But that's a guess.

[lowell holmes]

My first LN saw was a dovetail saw bought at a show. I have more of their saws I bought from the
Lie Nielsen site. Why would you not buy from Lie Nielsen directly?

[Steve Mathews]

Yes, shipping cost was a consideration. Craftsman Studio, my first choice has free shipping and is also on the left side of the country. If Highland is also out of stock I'll contact LN directly.

[Frederick Skelly]

Yes, shipping cost was a consideration. Craftsman Studio, my first choice has free shipping and is also on the left side of the country. If Highland is also out of stock I'll contact LN directly.

Hard to argue with free shipping! I didnt know that about C.S. Thanks for the tip!
Fred

[Phil Mueller]

I agree with the comments above. If you want to do hand cut tenons and dovetails, the rip will be the better choice. I have a few Veritas crosscut for smaller bench work and tenon shoulders, but my LN tenon saw (rip) and dovetail saws get used the most for joinery.

[Sean Shannon]

If your desire is to learn how to cut dovetails, then purchase a dovetail saw. It is filed to handle ripping operations which is most of the cuts that are done while dovetailing. The cuts runs in the same direction as the grain with a rip saw filing. Tenon saws are going to be larger and used for creating the shoulders of tenons, hence the saw being filed for ripping. It would be rather cumbersome to learn dovetails with a saw that has a larger plate like a tenon saw.

Carcass saws are used in the application of cutting across the grain. So after the angled cuts of the dovetail are made the carcass saw would cut the two shoulders of the dovetail. Carcass saws are good when you're creating dados is case work that will be plowed out later with a router plane.

I have the Lie-Nielson dovetail and carcass saws, both are great for there intended purpose and at least with Lie-Nielson there isn't a one trick pony saw that will handle both tasks of ripping or cross cutting well.

Bad Axe has their Hy-Breed filing on there saws that works in both applications of cross and rip cutting. But most of their saws go in the $300 range depending on what you choose. They do have some saws in stock that are ready to ship immediately.

[lowell holmes]

You can cut rip or cross grain with the Lie Nielsen saws. They cut a bit smoother if you have both saws.
The LN dovetail saw cuts cross grain adequately. When I learned to do dovetails, we only had the the
dovetails saw and I did not know the difference.

It's nice to have both saws, but you can get by with the dovetail saw until you acquire the tenon saw.
Lie Nielsen saws tend to multiply like rabbets. I have three of them.

[Barney Markunas]

I have the LN tapered carcass saw and it certainly works better than I do. If you have larger hands you might want to talk to LN to see if they can do a slightly larger handle for you. I seem to recall that they can modify handle sizes on request. I could resolve my issue with a little work on the lower horn but I've not yet brought myself to the point of taking a rasp or file to a handle that is in such nice shape.

You have a number of good options that cover a spread in price: custom, "botique", or an auction or flea market find that requires either some sweat equity or a trip to a saw doctor (or both). Regardless of which path you take, I would second the advice to shop one at a time. If you spend some time with one good saw, you will be a much better better educated consumer when it is time to pick up your next.

[Mike Allen1010]

RenaissanceWW makes a compelling case in favor of the Carcass saw as a first purchase in at least a couple of his videos. He describes the Dovetail saw as being more dedicated to one purpose while the crosscut saw is more versatile. Makes sense to me but that's why I raised the issue, to see what others think. I realize there is no perfect answer but I was just looking for a direction to get started. The idea of a kit is appealing but for now I just want to get started cutting some wood. Maybe it would be more appropriate for a second or third saw purchase.


+1, to the idea of getting a carcass saw first. You will use it for crosscutting all kinds of small components at the bench – drawer, door parts etc. A dedicated dovetail saw (I prefer a rip tooth configuration) is a fundamental tool, but it's pretty much good just for cutting dovetails.

I think most of the back saw manufacturers have been mentioned and you can't really go wrong with any of them. One other I would recommend wholeheartedly is Wentzloff and son's in Oregon. I haven't been to their site in a while, but their saws are great and they have a tremendous variety.

[Frederick Skelly]

+1, to the idea of getting a carcass saw first. You will use it for crosscutting all kinds of small components at the bench – drawer, door parts etc. A dedicated dovetail saw (I prefer a rip tooth configuration) is a fundamental tool, but it's pretty much good just for cutting dovetails.

I think most of the back saw manufacturers have been mentioned and you can't really go wrong with any of them. One other I would recommend wholeheartedly is Wentzloff and son's in Oregon. I haven't been to their site in a while, but their saws are great and they have a tremendous variety.

Mike, are you selling any reconditioned saws these days?

[Mike Allen1010]

Mike, are you selling any reconditioned saws these days?

Frederick,


I have waaay too many saws and I'll send you a PM, but I hasten to add I'm not a professional and I'm not in the saw business. I highly recommend our fellow Creekers Ron Bontz and Pete Taran for those in the market for a quality saw. I am a longtime customer and big fan of both.


I also want to give a public shout out to one of our fellow Creekers who recently sent me a big box of hand saws he'd collected over the years with the intent of someday restoring them. When he decided that day wasn't likely to come anytime soon, he generously sent them my way. This generous Creeker is too humble to allow me to recognize him here (J your the best), but I wanted to share this example of the tremendous generosity that is regularly demonstrated by so many here on SMC.


Our local community college, Palomar has an extensive woodworking program (one of our fellow Creekers Greg Wease teaches an excellent plane making class there). I recently spoke with their lead hand tool instructor, Jennifer Anderson about how we can get these saws into usable shape and into the hands of their students. Goodness knows my back would explode if I tried to do more than 1 myself, but there may be a chance for some kind of one time, guest "saw sharpening" class session.

Wish me luck – I'm officially terrified at the prospect of embarrassing myself in front of a room full of woodworkers!


All the best, Mike

[Joe A Faulkner]

OK, I'm confused again. I have or had the impression that using a crosscut saw for dovetails was workable although not ideal. I don't mind getting the core set of LN saws but didn't want to commit to that many from one manufacturer without getting a feel for how they fit in my hand, etc. All of the other premium saws have a significant lead time. So, waiting to get one would delay start. It seems to me that I have very little choice if my impatience is a factor.

Even with impatience being a factor, I think you have multiple options:
Lee Valley appears to have Wenzloff Saws in stock as well as Bad Axe Saws - you might call them to check on availability if these interest you.
Tools for Working wood appears to have Gramercy saws in stock

I think the Lie Nielsens are a great value (I have the dt and carcass saws). If you really want to start with dovetails and that is your immediate interest in handsaws then I'd get the dovetail saw. If you like how it feels in your hand, you will also like the LN carcass saw.

[paul cottingham]

Based on what I've read it seems that the Veritas saws are the more sensible choice for a first time purchaser. But I can't get past the non-traditional look despite being very satisfied with every Veritas product purchased in the past. So, unless a better idea comes along I will be ordering a LN Crosscut (Carcass?) saw tomorrow morning. I plan to follow that up with a Tenon saw after some use with the Crosscut saw. At that time I'll either get another LN or choose one of the more premium brands. One thing I don't like about some of the later is the embellishments or ornamental engravings put on them. I prefer a more straightforward or plain look. A Dovetail saw may eventually follow depending on how I progress in the craft. Thanks everyone for the comments. It would appear that I have some direction at this point, right or wrong. I'm looking forward to making my first true handsaw cuts, probably some dovetails.

I have saws from several manufacturers (LV, Bad-Axe, Disston, and access to several L-N saws.) I am an ardent user of hand tools (but not an authority like many other poeople here; I am merely an experienced and opinionated user.) For the money you can beat LV saws. I have, and use (regularly) two beautiful and well tuned LV dovetail saws, and I think they are great, especially for the money. I also have the little crosscut, and the two carcass saws. I reach for the carcass saw(s) regularly.

My favourite saw, hands down, is my Bad Axe sash saw I bought used from a member here. Awesome saw. The two Disston tenon saws I have aren't used as regularly, but I really like them. They are about 100 years old, and the steel can't be beat.

I have a good good friend who has several LN saws, he has terrible tremors from MS, so I usually cut stuff for him in his shop, using his saws. Great tools as well.

If if I had unlimited funds, I would buy all the Bad Axe saws I could. I am disabled, so my funds are tight, so I have several LV saws; you can't beat the value. The only issue I have with the LV saws is the handle; I have big hands, and one day I will have to take a rasp to them. But I'm not going to do that until the neuropathy in my hand forces me to. Don't want to risk ruining a perfectly good handle until I have to!

my opinions; I,suspect they are worth what you paid for them! ;-)

[lowell holmes]

I have had three LN saws for years, the dovetail and both carcass saws. When I bought the dovetail saw, it was the fantasy saw to own. A year or two later, I went to a woodworking show and came home with both carcass saws. I have never regretted it. They set the standard at that time.

[Frederick Skelly]

Steve, I sent you a PM with an excellent source of reconditioned saws.

Hope it helps.
Fred

[Patrick Chase]

Just found out an interesting spec difference between the LN tapered and non-tapered saws. The later all have a 25% thicker plate than the tapered version, which LN refers to in one their videos as a higher performance blade. Why does a thinner blade make it higher performance?

Isn't "high performance" well-known marketing speak for "a bit faster but a lot more likely to break if you don't know what you're doing"?

Seriously, thinner plate -> less material to remove -> faster cutting. Thinner plate also -> more likely to get kinked if your technique isn't good.

[Steve Mathews]

Isn't "high performance" well-known marketing speak for "a bit faster but a lot more likely to break if you don't know what you're doing"?

Seriously, thinner plate -> less material to remove -> faster cutting. Thinner plate also -> more likely to get kinked if your technique isn't good.

I think it was Christoper Schwartz that stated that he allows his students to use all of his tools in class except for the thin blade saws. He did once and a student managed to put a kink in the blade. The LN video also suggests the thicker/straight blade for beginners.

[lowell holmes]

I have a LN dovetail, carcass saws, both cross cut and rip. I don't feel the need for the thin gage saws. These saws are about 15 years old.

They are shiny new in appearance. I did send the dovetail saw to LN for sharpening one time.

[Ron Bontz]

I think it was Christoper Schwartz that stated that he allows his students to use all of his tools in class except for the thin blade saws. He did once and a student managed to put a kink in the blade. The LN video also suggests the thicker/straight blade for beginners.

+1 on a little more rigid saw.