15-20K for shop overhaul. Need ideas and what would you buy?

[Joshua Bass]

I am about to spend a lot of money and could use some advice. I've done a lot of research and came up with the tool list below, but that doesn't mean it cant be tweaked with some help from you guys. I am in the fortunate position of being able to spend a lot of money at once and start the shop over from scratch.

I will have a 24x20 space to use as my workshop. I can likely spend up to 20K for the overhaul. This will include all new tools, lighting, materials to build storage, etc.. I have a thickness planar, Sawstop TS, plenty of general hand tools and cordless power tools.

Immediate needs are tools to fabricate cabinets, desks, built-ins, etc.. for the house. So any suggestions or tips on what tools I should invest in to accomplish that would be much appreciated.

I've put this list together which puts me at around 14k total cost:

Jointer: Powermatic 1610082 8" Parallelogram w/ spiral head
Jointer Base: Powermatic 1610078 Mobile Base
Bandsaw: Laguna 1 4/12
Drum Sander: Powermatic 2244
Tracksaw: Festool TS 55
Tracksaw Track: Festool 3000
Tracksaw Clamps: Festool 494594
Sander: Festool ETS 150
Router: Festool OF 1400
Paint Gun: Fuji HVLP Q5
Domino: Festool DF 500
Dust Collection: Festool CT 36 E
Dust Collection: Clear Vue CV1800LH
Miter Saw: Bosch GCM12SD

What items would you add/remove/replace?

[Jamie Buxton]

What you need depends on what work you want to do.

You do have a TS55, which suggests you're doing some plywood work. For that, I'd add a table saw. The track saw is important for breaking down the plywood sheet, but a table saw is very helpful for smaller cuts.

Also, I'd lose the drum sander. Unlessl you get up to a real widebelt, drum sanders are toys.

And me, I'd be lost without a vacuum veneer press.

[Joshua Bass]

What you need depends on what work you want to do.

You do have a TS55, which suggests you're doing some plywood work. For that, I'd add a table saw. The track saw is important for breaking down the plywood sheet, but a table saw is very helpful for smaller cuts.

Also, I'd lose the drum sander. Unlessl you get up to a real widebelt, drum sanders are toys.

And me, I'd be lost without a vacuum veneer press.

Thanks. I do have a table saw already. Veneer press is a good idea.

[Ben Rivel]

Very tough to master plan an entire shop at once. I did it that way and it still took me a couple years of researching, buying, putting together, etc.

Right off the bat what catches my eye is be prepared to spend more on the ducting for a proper dust collection system than you did on the dust collector.

[Andy Giddings]

Agree on the drum sander - never needed one for cabinets. If you're building 32mm frameless then you may want to include an LR32 system or something similar depending on how many you build. And I had a SCMS for ages when I had a table saw - just gathered dust before I sold it. Do you have a drill press?

[Joshua Bass]

Agree on the drum sander - never needed one for cabinets. If you're building 32mm frameless then you may want to include an LR32 system or something similar depending on how many you build. And I had a SCMS for ages when I had a table saw - just gathered dust before I sold it. Do you have a drill press?

I'm sorry, what is SCMS?

I do have a drill press.

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm sorry, what is SCMS?

I believe it's Sliding Compound Miter Saw

[Andy Giddings]

I believe it's Sliding Compound Miter Saw
Yep, sorry about the TLA (Three letter acronyms) :-)

[Malcolm McLeod]

No mention of a planer.....? I evolved from a 6" jointer & 12" planer to a 12" J/P combo, and can't imagine now not being able to joint same as I can plane.

[Victor Robinson]

I can't imagine not having a router table in my shop, but YMMV. The 1400 isn't a great table router unless you're using it in Festool CMS, which IMHO is overpriced unless you need to be mobile. I'd factor in a nice router lift and 3hp motor (PC 7518), and perhaps a nice fence system (e.g. Incra).

Festool sanders multiply, just FYI.

[Bill Dufour]

What is the climate at the shop? You might want to invest a few thousand in insulation while the walls are open. Consider adding heat or cooling or both if needed. I would at least add a skylight which opens for venting. A sink is nice to have even if it just cold water.
Bill D

[Len Rosenberg]

I would replace the 8" jointer with a 16" jointer/planer combo, Minimax FS41 Elite; add a dedicated cast iron top router table with lift and dust collection (like General Excalibur or similar), would get the Festool Domino 700, not the 500. If you will be using a Festool TS55, its usefulness is increased many times over by the MFT3 table. Recommend two sets of leg cross braces for stability. Don't see a drill press on the list. Also you need to budget for the dust collection duct system (recommend Oneida/Nordfab style, but pricey), and electric supply/wiring upgrades. Just for starters....:)

[Prashun Patel]

I would ditch the drum sander.

Get a planer or wider JP combo.

For cabinets u will need a router table. If you will be doing a lot of molding projects consider instead a shaper.

Track saw is great but if you have a table saw then get rid of one of those and get a bandsaw???

[Doug Garson]

Yep, sorry about the TLA (Three letter acronyms) :-)
mmmmm TLA or FLA?

[Larry Copas]

I had a Bosch SCMS. It was a great miter saw and I used it a lot....building houses but I no longer do that. In the shop it was replaced with a sliding table on the table saw and I have no regrets about selling the Bosch.

I would want a shaper and a power feeder would be nice for any amount of cabinet doors.

Skip the drum sander.

The track saw is a toss up. I can rip plywood on my table saw with roller tables by myself with no strain but I learned how to do it 50 years ago. Crosscut with a circle saw and straight edge. I did have a Festool 55 and sold it as I hardly ever used it.

[David T gray]

your going to want a edge sander. i wouldn't waste money on drum sander . i wouldn't get the festool router i would buy 2 1617EVSPK cpo has these $50 off atm. buy a deros sander and use mirka sandpaper so much better then festool stuff costs a lot more but its worth. if i were you i would spend maybe half of what u have and buy tools you need when you need them. buy the bigger domino buy the adapter from https://www.senecawoodworking.com/collections/all and use the smaller bits with it. i would buy from grizzly you can get 2-3x the mechine from them for the same price as a powermatic. Grizzly G0609X is less then the powermatic and 30% bigger. do you really need a track saw ? i never use mine unless im mobile.

[John Sincerbeaux]

I think if your objective is to make cabinets, built-ins, etc for your home then I think your setup now is pretty close to what you "really" need. A good compressor and nail guns would be high on my list for cabinet making and built-ins.
If WW is your life-long passion, and your WW future is limitless, then I would buy the biggest and best equipment that you can afford. I would by the best Euro machines and a few old American iron machines.

[Keith Westfall]

20 x 24?? You are going to be packed in pretty tight! Make sure you have wheels on everything. Mine is about the same size and I',m always short of room, and don't have any the big iron that has been suggested.

Don't forget the benches (building and working space) they take some room too.

Other than that, I am jealous!!

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Joshua, I would sell the jointer, planer, belt sander, tablesaw and mitre saw.

I would buy a 12" or 16" combination jointer/planer and a sliding saw/shaper combination with scoring saw and stock feeder.

You'll have far better capabilities, capacities and features, as well as more room............Regards, Rod.

[Brian W Evans]

Joshua,

Congratulations on an exciting project! My recommendations would be:

Remember that your shop is as much a tool as anything else. Insulate, heat, cool, light, run electrical and dust collection. Buy tools as you can but doing these things later will be painful.

You have a relatively small space, so I will echo Rod's suggestion and get a combo machine. A Minimax CU300 will eat a lot of your budget but you'll get a sliding table saw that can handle full sheets of ply (ditch the table saw and track saw), do very accurate and repeatable crosscuts and angle cuts (ditch the SCMS), joint 16", plane 16" (ditch the stand-alone planer), and shape (probably still need a router table). All of this will be in one location (easier for dust collection and more room for other stuff). I wouldn't go for a cheaper combo machine, but I have heard very good things about Hammer machines that cost less, so YMMV.

I will echo David's recommendation for the Domino 700 with the Seneca adapters. I have this setup and use it all the time. You need a good dust extractor for this, and nothing is better than the Festool with an Oneida Dust Deputy mounted on it (they make one especially for this purpose).

Definitely get a good bandsaw. I don't have the Laguna but they certainly have a good reputation for bandsaws. Maybe you could get a deal if you ordered a combo machine and bandsaw from Hammer/Felder or Minimax?

I think these things, together with your dust collection, probably puts you over your budget. These are what I would consider to be my "core" tools, however. The other things can be purchased later.

A few recommendations for other things, if you decide you want them right away:

I have a Benchdog cast iron router table and I absolutely love it. It will last forever and never sag, dent, or chip. I use the Woodpeckers PRL-V2 lift and Superfence, which I also love. As recommended earlier, get the PC7518 router for whatever table/lift you end up with.

A compressor and nail guns are especially handy. You can get a cheap pancake compressor and a couple of cheap guns for a few hundred at the big box stores, but better ones are still relatively cheap. I have a Rolair VT25BIG portable compressor that is a huge step up from the PC pancake it replaced, but wasn't very expensive.

A drill press is really nice to have. I got a used Craftsman years ago that is adequate. Others seem to rely on theirs more and would suggest something more expensive, but I see lots of drill presses on Craigslist where I live. $200 should get you something decent.

I have a drum sander (Supermax 19-38) that I like very much but don't "need". I wouldn't get one right away.

Best of luck!

-Brian

[Darcy Warner]

I would add on.

[Clint Baxter]

Lots of good advice already. I think the European combo machine would be the preferred option as well. Maybe upgrade the bandsaw to a Hammer N4400 while you're at it.

One thing not mentioned is your choice of sander, (ETS 150). I highly recommend spending the difference and getting the ETS EC 150. Since getting mine, I rarely, if ever, use my ETS 150. I got my EC with a 5mm orbit, while my older ETS 150 has the 3mm orbit, so it may get used if I ever run into swirl marks from the ETS EC 150/5. I haven't had this happen yet, for what it's worth.

Good on luck on whatever you decide.

Clint

[Art Mann]

I have an equipment set that is only slightly larger than what you are proposing and it is housed in a 24 X 28 shop. I have another area for material storage. It is waaay too crowded. I am building a new 24 X 36 shop and my initial planning suggests it is just barely large enough. I recommend you buy the most needed tools first and then see where you stand. A jointer/planer combo machine is a good space saver. If you don't have room to work then the best tools in the world won't do you much good.

Once upon a time, I had a strategy to keep all my big tools on wheels and roll them out as needed. I wasted so much time shuffling equipment and arranging dust collection that I had a hard time getting any real work done. Of necessity, I sold several tools I would have liked to have kept and made the rest of them stationary.

[rudy de haas]

On reading your list I was struck by several of things others have commented on (sander, option for planer/jointer combo) and by:

1 - that's pretty expensive stuff. A package deal from grizzly (assuming you are in the U.S. ) would probably get you more for much less; and,

2 - you may want to consider a mid range shaper. These are harder to work with than tabled routers; but much better for work with very hard woods, repetitive work, and work with large cutting heads. Cutters are very expensive relative to routers and the whole thing comes across as gross overkill if you want to make a small number of things - but there are jobs (like making ceiling molding) for which there really aren't many practical alternatives if you want to do it yourself. This is, I think, something you have to experience to understand because the overlap with routers is large enough to confuse the issue. Bottom line: if you can afford it and don't have shaper experience, find someone with the tool who can let you find the differences for yourself and then decide.

[Erik Loza]

....I will have a 24x20 space to use as my workshop. I can likely spend up to 20K for the overhaul...

Watch this series of videos...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpi1iSiR8ZE

...then call and talk to Sam Blasco (member here). I cannot tell you how many customers I had that were in your exact same shoes, bought a Minimax combo, then never looked back. Best of luck with your search.

Erik

[Joshua Bass]

Thanks for all of the feedback guys. It seems unanimous to ditch the drum sander. Is there any particular reason why? It seems useful for many reasons, although the extra space could be more of a concern.

[James Zhu]

If you have space, this is a very good deal.

http://macsblogboard.blogspot.ca/p/new-2014.html

[Andy Giddings]

Thanks for all of the feedback guys. It seems unanimous to ditch the drum sander. Is there any particular reason why? It seems useful for many reasons, although the extra space could be more of a concern.
I think this was explained in the 2nd post on this thread - they aren't as effective as a wide belt and in terms of their utility for building cabinets - a low priority compared to everything else you had listed, same as the SCMS

[Martin Wasner]

I would add on.

Golf clap.

[Jim Dwight]

20x24 is pretty good sized but if you set up a sliding table saw with capacity to cut 8 foot sheets, it will chew up all but a few feet around the shop. Not permanently but when you are cutting plywood, other machines will have to be against the walls. Should be doable.

I prefer a small capacity table saw 24-36 inches, with a track saw. That takes up much less floor space and I have less, 14x24. You have to learn to use a track saw, I needed something to position the track to get consistent results - marking and cutting wasn't accurate enough. But when you get the technique down, it is very accurate and involves a lot less lifting of sheet goods.

I use 4 routers most of the time. One in my router table, two mid sized hand held (PC but Bosch is reviewed well and there are others), and a Bosch colt. I would not want less routers. It is handy to change routers instead of changing bits. The other routers are kind of big to put a small chamfer or roundover on a project, the colt is great for that. But it will not handle the bigger bits. I use a router in a special base for my DeWalt track saw track to cut long dados. It works great. Festool offers a similar setup. It's a good way to make dados for cabinets.

I have always purchased tools based upon what I wanted to do. The project and the cutting/joining details. You may have to build some shop cabinets or something to see what you like. You can pocket screw cabinets, use through screws, use dados with either, just glue and clamp them, glue and gun nail them together, or even use dovetails (although that seems excessive for the carcase to me). You can use a face frame or not. You can make your own doors or buy them. I made a whole kitchen many years ago using 3/4 oak veneer plywood from the big box store and solid oak raised panel doors. I did the doors on my router table. I used shallow dados with through screws that were plugged. We like them but I am sure not everybody would. I would probably not use rotary cut veneer at this point but otherwise I think they were fine cabinets. For time reasons, I am buying them for the current remodel, however.

If you don't already have enough tools, you soon will have to make cabinets. You might want more to do certain things but you can start with what you have, I think.

My last two shops have had a long table for my RAS and CMS (12 inch Hitachi) with flip stops and storage underneith. It would be a good shop project. My latest one is about 30 inches high with a 3.5 inch base and the saws are shimmed up to 38 inches, my preferred height. Where the saws aren't, I have a Paulk style 7 inch thick surface where the flip stops are. I like crosscutting against a stop so I like doing it on this long table. Especially for something like cabinets, having a bunch of stops set up you can flip out of the way when making another cut can save a bunch of measuring and improve results. I have a couple dozen drawers of various sizes for smaller tool storage.

[Jim Becker]

Hi Joshua, I would sell the jointer, planer, belt sander, tablesaw and mitre saw.

I would buy a 12" or 16" combination jointer/planer and a sliding saw/shaper combination with scoring saw and stock feeder.

You'll have far better capabilities, capacities and features, as well as more room............Regards, Rod.

I agree with Rod...this is an opportunity to change the way you work while optimizing space and workflow in what is honestly a relatively small space. What he suggests gives you "big capacities" without using all of the available floor space as well as providing some accuracy and precision. Yes, there will be a learning experience, but many of us who have made the same transition would "never go back".

[Mike King]

problem solved.

http://macsblogboard.blogspot.com/p/new-2014.html

Mike

[Peter Aeschliman]

My advice is to think about the first, say, 5 projects you want to make, think through the steps, and buy the tools that you will need to complete those projects. Buy good quality machines, but if you can, save $5k of your cash for a while. You don't sound new to woodworking, but you may learn some things about what tools you need after working through this first set of projects, and it would stink to spend your budget on machines you don't need and not have cash left to buy the ones you do need.

Now as for my specific opinions based on the way I work... My bias is to really invest in the machines that you will use for every project. In my shop, essentially every workpiece touches the jointer, planer, table saw, and a random orbital sander... and the dust collector and shop vac, just in small pieces. :)

Those are the core of my shop. Those are machines you don't want to cheap out on, in my opinion.

The next tier machines is the bandsaw, router table, handheld router, drum sander, and drill press. But I use those tools much less often than the "tier 1" tools... but of these, the bandsaw is my next most important machine.

But I think the most important thing is to not spend your money on machines simply because you saw them on new yankee workshop or The Wood Whisperer's youtube channel. That's a quick way to waste your money. Buy them based on your personal interests and your preferred work.

[Harold Balzonia]

Congrats on being able to actually do what many woodworkers only dream about!

A drum sander is great for evening out glue ups (invaluable for those of us who do segmented turning) but with a domino set up, your joints on your flat work should be perfect. A drum sander is a space eater for folks who do primarily flat work.

certainly add a shaper to your list. A router table just can't handle the moldings and cabinet doors it sounds like you want to build.

Consider lumber storage, as well. Think about whether you are the wood hoarding type (my hand is raised) or the kind of guy who buys what he needs for each project and uses it all up....

There are three things no one has mentioned yet that are CRITICAL for a good shop IMO....

1. Build or buy (sacrilege) a quality work bench. You need real estate to lay out all those panels you're building. Build your shop around your work bench first. If you can also have an assembly table, you'll be very happy.

2. get yourself a damn good air compressor and plumb air outlets to your work bench and around the shop.

3. Outlets, outlets, outlets, in the floor, in the ceiling, along every wall every couple of feet, and as many dedicated circuit breakers as you can wire up.

[Joshua Bass]

Thanks for all of the feedback guys. I am seriously considering a Hammer or Minimax J/P combo unit. It seems like a no brainer given the space constraints and need for jointer and thicknesser anyways (I do have a lunchbox style planer that I am not totally happy with).

I hope I didn't mislead anyone by saying I was building cabinets. That is not the only thing I build and plan to build, but just the first priority due to a new house. Would this change the recommendation to omit the drum sander? It seems that is not a popular item and I can see bother pros and cons for having it.

[Jim Becker]

Drum sanders are "just the thing" for some types of projects and "meh" for others. I had one and didn't use it very much. The space it took up was worth more to me for other activities so I sold it and don't miss it. But it's an essential tool for many woodworkers/cabinetmakers, so "what you do" matters relative to if the tool is going to be important to you.

[David T gray]

have you ever tried a card scraper i just do this as a hobby but i find the card scraper that fastest way to get a finish ready surface

[Joshua Bass]

have you ever tried a card scraper i just do this as a hobby but i find the card scraper that fastest way to get a finish ready surface

I have not, but will check into that.

[Paul K. Johnson]

Also, I'd lose the drum sander. Unlessl you get up to a real widebelt, drum sanders are toys.



I have a miniature drum sander (Byrnes) that made it possible to make very accurate small parts that I had a lot of trouble controlling the thickness of before. But it's only 6" wide and requires a push-stick.

Because of what it's done for me I've pretty much decided that a larger one is definitely going to be in my shop one day.

So I'm wondering why you say they are "toys". What's the problem with them and what do you use instead?

[Randy Henry]

I had a Performax 16-32 drum sander. Liked it at first, but ended up hating it an selling it. More trouble than what it was worth. Ended up finding a good deal on a 37" Woodmaster. Though the Woodmaster isn't in the same category as a real wide belt, it does a very good job, stays calibrated, and is very dependable. I use it on almost every project.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Only Gripe I have with my CU 300 Combo is the Changeover from Sawing to Planing.
Get the J/P to share the Byrd Head.
Get the Saw/Shaper to share the Slider.
Don't Look Back.

Now a Bandsaw...

[Nick Decker]

I have a miniature drum sander (Byrnes) that made it possible to make very accurate small parts that I had a lot of trouble controlling the thickness of before. But it's only 6" wide and requires a push-stick.

Because of what it's done for me I've pretty much decided that a larger one is definitely going to be in my shop one day.

So I'm wondering why you say they are "toys". What's the problem with them and what do you use instead?

I don't agree with the "toy" label at all, and use my Jet 10-20 on just about every project. Very accurate, and zero tear-out.

[bob cohen]

Lot of good suggestions here. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is hand tools. How about a good set of chisels, rasps, router plane, marking knife, calipers, a couple of saws, etc. Its amazing how often you will use them. And, they will allow you to achieve a level of accuracy that machines just can't match.