Veneered raised panels, who knew?

[johnny means]

So, I demoed some builders grade cabinets today. I know I'm not the only one who thought all those cheap red oak cabinets had solid doors.
I'll definitely be filing this technique away for future use.

[Jerry Miner]

Right. Those "oak" doors are not oak--the 'oak" is RTF. The giveaway is the lack of endgrain at the top/bottom cuts.

[Victor Robinson]

Hmmm, makes me realize I should take a closer look at my parents' kitchen cabinets, which I had planned to demo and salvage what I thought would be a bunch of red oak from. Maybe repurposing the cabinets would be smarter if they are indeed this.

How do they veneer the raised panels efficiently? Seems it wouldn't be worth the cost-savings and effort for a smaller shop?

[Jerry Miner]

It's not even wood veneer-- it's "rigid thermo-foil" (RTF)-- a pvc film with pretty realistic texture and "woodgrain" applied under heat and pressure in a production shop-- and sold to many cabinet shops, large and small.

[johnny means]

Nah, this is definitely real wood veneer. I like the idea for more expensive veneers, maybe matched burl panels.

[Jerry Miner]

Nah, this is definitely real wood veneer. I like the idea for more expensive veneers, maybe matched burl panels.

I don't think so, Johnny. Look closer. It's a real good fake. It has fooled me, too-- but wood veneer, IME, will not stretch around corners like that. Try burning it--I bet it will melt like plastic.

[Jamie Buxton]

Nah, this is definitely real wood veneer. I like the idea for more expensive veneers, maybe matched burl panels.

I tried to do something like that with real wood veneer, years ago. I could not get it to work. The veneer crumpled as it went over the corner where the two bevels come together. When something like this is done with thermofoil, the trick is the thermo part of the name. The plastic foil is heated to the point that it will stretch to get over corners.

[John K Jordan]

So, I demoed some builders grade cabinets today. I know I'm not the only one who thought all those cheap red oak cabinets had solid doors.
I'll definitely be filing this technique away for future use.

I ran into this just recently and was surprised - never saw that before!

I'm doing an inventiory of a building full of wood and milled components from a big cabinet company that closed. There were many pallets of these "veneer over MDF" door panels in a variety of "wood" species and sizes. They sure looked like wood veneer but I was puzzled how it could possibly have been applied without buckling and cracking.

The RTF would explain that! I'll get one and examine it closer, maybe peel it apart. (Another question is what in the world are we going to do with many thousands of these panels?!!)

I had to ask Sir Google about RTF and found this: "New Cabinet Doors: What Is RTF, and Why Should We Care?"
http://www.refacingcabinet.com/home-improvement/doors/new-cabinet-doors-what-is-rtf-and-why-should-we-care.html

JKJ

[Marty Schlosser]

It is possible to veneer such pieces... but the skills and experience necessary to pull it off are daunting for most of us. I was quite amazed at what could be done after seeing how it can be done.

Here's the video that explains it:https://www.vacupress.com/product/working-in-a-vacuum/

[Mark Wooden]

I've seen doors like that recently, I noticed the veneer was pretty thin and that all edges were dull, rounded over and lacking definition.
I've veneered raised panels by banding substrate, veneering over all and then cutting the hips on a shaper. If planned properly you'll only be covering 1/16" of the solid banding, so any telegraphing over time will be negligible. And yes, at the top and bottom of the panels the banding grain was parallel to the veneer grain. We laid up the panels this way to give the appearance of solid burl panels and another time with English brown oak (which was a particular joy to three of us with allergies ;-) )

[Warren Lake]

I dont see how veneer can work you have two different angles coming together on each corner and almost a section of veneer would have to be removed and lined up. Ive done what Mark says in the past and it works well, sure i had more overlap on the solid more like 1/8" and no issues with it telegraphing. No more sanding end grain in that case as the raise is in long grain. Nothing positive about thermal foil stuff. At a speaker company years ago they were making themafoil doors between cabinets for a big box store, its how the big get bigger. I think its junk, have seen it in places before years after when its failing., maybe it all doesnt do it still see it as the devil.

[Brad Shipton]

Here is a video from Quality Vak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hurkix0Xcvg I am not sure it is very practical, nor do we see a close up of the corners in question.

[Mel Fulks]

There is a history of panels with the edges gilded or painted ,I like that better

[Warren Lake]

thanks Brad thats a new one on me, ive done vacuum bag up to some high end speaker cabinets that I veneered in 3/4 MDF as they were not repairable as supplied. Aggree you cant see the corners as it went I thought there would be a portion of folded veneer sticking up that you slice off. Also apparent is the panel raise is modified to work in the process favour, if I have a drop of .100 or whatever less than that it wont happen, also where the panels fits into the tongue normally it runs straight for some amount guess that is more doable. would be nice to see it clear and close up, then how does it do in the real world years later.

Mel didnt quite get what you mean but would like to understand. im interested in the history of things especially since more time was put into things in the past. Do you mean the raised portion they paint to match the rest of the panel or?

[Mel Fulks]

Yo Warren, seen them with the cut down ,thinned perimeter painted .sometines the thick panel field is stained and sometimes painted solid contrasting color or , faux and exagerated graining.

[Dave Sabo]

Lets think about this for a second:

A small company looking to save money by using read oak veneer instead of solid wood is going to spend the xtra time on each door required to use said veneer - thus negating any money saved on the veneer ? Which isn't that much of a savings because red oak is almost as common as pine.

I think not.

And neither is a large operation making thousands upon thousands of doors. They can't afford the labor to futz with each panel conforming the veneer to the edges. An a large press that does ten to 20 doors a shot isn't able to finesse the veneer either.

That's RTF - you'd be surprised at what's available in plastic. Ive even seen glazing applied after the thermofoiling.

[John Lankers]

Yep, 100% RTF.
Just hit it with a heat gun or hot steam and it will curl, bubble or melt. They make these panels quicker than I can make a sandwich.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Companies have been making veneered (like with real wood veneer) raised panels for cabinet and other doors, since I was in college in the early 90's. I destictly remember one of my instructors in Woodworkign college bringing in a door and describing the technique to us. Not a real small shop venture though.

Not PVC, not thermo-foil, real wood veneer. Coincidentally, FDM+C's latest issue had an article on a US company who does just this.

http://www.fdmc-online.com/fdmc/may_2017?pg=74#pg74

[johnny means]

Nah, it's wood. Trust me I've been a cabinet maker for 20 years now. I'm familiar with every material out their. These cabinets do have solid oak face frames and door frames.
Up close you can see the seam where the veneer had to be cut to allow for the fold.
Notice the black staining around nails, foils don't stain, and splintering, foils don't splinter. Also, if you look closely you can tell the finished face from the unfinished portion that sat in the groove.
These are box store cabinets, every box store in America probably has hundreds of these right now. It would land perfect sense to veneer, even red oak, on this scale.

[Larry Edgerton]

You are not crazy Johnny, I have run across those before as well. Just another way the factory can kick our butt. Do you suppose that the salesman explain that they are really not solid wood?

[John K Jordan]

Companies have been making veneered (like with real wood veneer) raised panels for cabinet and other doors, since I was in college in the early 90's. ...
http://www.fdmc-online.com/fdmc/may_2017?pg=74#pg74

That's interesting. So there are MDF door panels with thermo-foil and MDF door panels with wood veneer. Perhaps you have to pry up an edge to tell for sure.

JKJ

[Brad Shipton]

If the seam is cut, then it is not that difficult if you have the skill to cut the corners properly when the press pulls the veneer down. The trick will be making the cuts so the corners to work out properly. Darryl Kiel's video shows how he massages the corners as the vac is pulling out the air. It looked very tedious and needs a lot of skill to understand how the veneer will deform in two directions. Darryl also showed a few examples of veneering molding with fine veneers. If you want to see some interesting veneer work watch the how its made episode on making Bentley's. They make complex dash and arm rest shapes with the finest burl stock you can find. That is impressive if you have ever tried to veneer any burl stock.

I found the Bentley Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVgBhlfAn4o Watching it again I see now they are using a hot press.

[Marty Schlosser]

Dave,

I couldn't agree more with your issue of cost saving. I'm just saying that it's possible... and not necessarily profitable nor practical.

I do a lot of curved veneering and laminating in my work, so this is a skill I'm very familiar with. But as you've stated, veneering is reserved for those times when it's appropriate.

[Warren Lake]

hard for me to wrap my head around the corners though its a minimal panel raise complication. The very first photo page one doesnt look like its cut and mitred on the corner but maybe my antique eyes not seeing that., Even the Vacuum press guy my logic is still saying where does the excess go. Johnnys photos are good and close up, do you have one of a corner?