New 1200 grit CBN wheel today

[John K Jordan]

I have several CBN wheels on grinders and a 600 grit CBN on a Tormek. I use the Tormek for all my spindle gouges but even the 600 grit didn't give me the edge I got with the stone water wheel.

Today I got a 1200 grit CBN for the Tormek and gave it a try. Much closer to what I like to see! I got a much finer grind than with the 600. If, as Reed Grey indicates, it will stabilize after a break-in period it might get even smoother.

I would certainly not try to reshape a tool with such a fine wheel unless I had a few days to spend. But resharpening the primary bevel on a Thompson 3/8" spindle gouge only took about 10 seconds. (I keep a jig set for just these gouges.) I sharpened a small scraper too with good results. I'll try a skew and a few other tools tomorrow, perhaps.

This wheel came from Ken Rizza at Woodturners Wonders. It's aluminum, 10" dia, 2" wide, 1" flat down the sides, and 90-deg corners on the edges.

Anyone else using a 1200 grit CBN? Ken said he doesn't sell many - one went to a guy sharpening scalpels.

JKJ

[James Tibbetts]

Nice to hear your impression John. I've considered this same wheel. Keep us updated as the wheel breaks in please.

[Reed Gray]

It will be interesting to see how it works for you. My 600 grit still cuts great, and isn't broken in yet, but I am not doing production turning any more. The 1000 grit seems to be working fine. The only 'but' I have about it was that it could be loading up. I did get a 300X camera thing to take pictures, and couldn't see any build up. I couldn't see it either when I loaded up an 80 grit wheel with brass, copper, aluminum, and some cold rolled steel. That experiment could be seen easily with a cell phone photo so it may be that we were doing some thing wrong with the camera. It still cuts, but looks darker than I would expect since I don't grind/sharpen any of my wet wood tools on it.

As a side note, I am now using a twisted up pipe cleaner to apply some Trend lapping fluid, to the bevels to be sharpened on just about every sharpening. Seeing how this does on keeping the wheels clean, and seeing just how much more of the loading I can remove from the 80 grit wheel. I will have some video shots of it in my up coming sharpening video. No idea if keeping some lapping fluid on the wheels will make any or even much difference.

robo hippy

[John K Jordan]

...
As a side note, I am now using a twisted up pipe cleaner to apply some Trend lapping fluid, to the bevels to be sharpened on just about every sharpening.

You are applying it to the tool and not the wheel? How much and how often?

I used the fluid on my 600 grit wheel on the bench grinder but dribbled it on. Some of it was thrown off right away (and the stuff is expensive!) If it really doesn't need that much maybe wiping or brushing some on the wheel would be good.

With the Tormek I have the opportunity to easily try running the wheel in water. I think it was Ken Schroeder (can't find the note right now) who said he tried this but his wheel was steel and started to rust. My wheel is aluminum.

I did load up the 80 grit wheel a little with some mild steel but it cleaned up quickly just as you said by grinding a bit on a (Thompson) lathe tool.

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

I would think that with a metal grinding wheel, aluminum or steel, if you add water, the filings will rust as well, but don't know.

As for the lapping fluid, applying to the tool bevel seems to work best and then that applies it to the wheel. I have tried putting drops on the wheel and smearing it around with my finger, and or a rag, but it flies off when I turn on the grinder, and if I am in the line of fire, I get a small racing stripe. Thought about the pipe cleaner, or a plastic Q tip; to insert through the hole in the top of the Trend bottle (pop the pivoting lid off first). One bottle is almost empty, but I just shake it. I just get the bevel damp. The fluid isn't cheap, and this is easier than trying to put a drop on direct from the bottle, and less wasteful...

robo hippy

[Bob Bouis]

The MSDS for the lapping fluid seems to say that it's entirely or almost entirely odorless mineral spirits. Those are the only ingredients listed, anyway. Is it really better than, say, WD40 or plain mineral spirits?

[Reed Gray]

There was a thread here a while back about 'lapping' fluid, and there are a number of variations and home made concoctions. I don't know that any one of them would work better than the others. There is one brand, Bora, that Woodcraft carries that contains 'petroleum distillates' and is flammable. Smells like mineral spirits to me. I would think any light machine oil could work well, but I wouldn't use Boeshield as it seems to be sticky. This may also keep the metal dust down. WD40 may work well also, but I think to try them all out, I would need 5 or so grinders and a set of identical CBN wheels on all of them.... Maybe if I ever win the lottery...

robo hippy

[Jim Seyfried]

John what is the major advantage for you to use the CBN wheel compared to the stone water wheel? I would think not having to dress it and always being a consistent size would be a big plus. I guess going to the 1200 grit is to get the same or better quality or sharpness.

Reed, if I remember correctly Alan Lacer recommends WD40 to clean the diamond hone that he sells.

[Paul Gilbert]

I tried in vain to sharpen my big ( 1 1/4") Laser ground skew on my Tormach. I just couldn't do it. If you find a way to sharpen a skew (other than the oval ones which I and Allen hate) please let us all know how it was done.

[John K Jordan]

John what is the major advantage for you to use the CBN wheel compared to the stone water wheel? I would think not having to dress it and always being a consistent size would be a big plus. I guess going to the 1200 grit is to get the same or better quality or sharpness.


Jim, I used the water wheel for over a decade and the 600 grit CBN for a year or so on the Tormek. Here are some pros and cons that I can think of at the moment:

Pros of CBN compared to the water wheel
- Quicker to begin sharpening. I can sharpen immediately without having to spend 5-10 min getting the water wheel ready. (The wheel soaks up a lot of water so I would put the tray in place and fill it with water, turn on the motor wait for it to soak in, add more water, wait some more. When finished sharpening, the tray needs to be removed and occasionally cleaned out. I tended to save all my sharpening for one marathon session.)

- The wheel is always flat and never needs to be dressed and trued. It takes a significant amount of time to true the stone Tormek wheel properly since it is large and turns so slowly.

- The wheel always remains 10" in diameter. I went though two stone wheels, discarding them when they got down to about 8" in diameter. Since the CBN wheel doesn't get smaller the jigs don't have to be adjusted to compensate.

- The CBN supposedly doesn't wear out. (This remains to be proven.) This may be less expense in the long run.

- Minor point: I don't have to deal with the water itself. I don't have to keep jugs of water on hand for the water wheel. And the water can be messy, especially when I'm in klutz mode. Years ago I went to a stainless steel table for my sharpening since the inevitable water spill was hard on the wooden table.


Cons of CBN compared to the water wheel
- A new CBN wheel is pretty expensive, even compared to the "overpriced" stone wheels.

- Lathe tools, by nature, become magnetized with use. When sharpening with the wheel turning away from the edge, a magnetized tool can hold a long trail of black steel powder which is annoying, and worse, obscures the edge. I keep an old bulk magnetic tape demagnetizer hanging by the Tormek and zap the tools for a few seconds if needed.

- Fine steel dust floats in the air everywhere with the dry CBN, where the water wheel captures it. You can see the dust floating in the air with the right lighting. I have some strong magnets stored on the back side of my bandsaw cabinet at least 10' from the Tormek. After some use, these magnets are covered with the finest steel dust you can imagine. What is this doing to our lungs, to finishes, electronic and optical equipment? A dust mask, dust collection, and possibly a room air cleaner are recommended. I'm hoping the honing fluid reduces the floating steel dust but this needs testing.

- I got a finer edge on my spindle gouges and skews with the water wheel than I got with the 600 CBN, the biggest reason I bought a 1200 grit to try. (As mentioned, the edge is better now, perhaps as good or better than the water wheel, don't know yet.) Tormek uses a silicon carbide grading stone to make the same wheel coarser or finer. This actually works pretty well. Using CBN would require changing wheels or multiple Tormeks. (I'm still looking for a second one)

Neither Pro nor Con:
- Putting a new edge on a tool takes only seconds on either the water wheel or the CBN on the Tormek. Shaping a new profile takes FOREVER on both. The first time I tried reshaping a large oval skew I couldn't believe how long it took. A large negative rake scraper? Forget it.

Years ago I solved the problem of shaping a tool by adding a Tormek support bar to a standard bench grinder so I can use my Tormek jigs. (They eventually came out with a kit just for this.) The fact that one is 8" diameter and one 10" diameter doesn't make as much difference as one might imagine. I keep a couple of grinders with CBN wheels in 80 to 600 grits for flexibility. It might seem odd to have a 600 grit grinding wheel next to a 600 grit Tormek wheel but this worked very well for me since I prefer to sharpen skew chisels freehand with a platform instead of a jig - I can sharpen a skew on the 1750 rpm grinder almost before I can get it set up properly in the Tormek jig! (I also sharpen most other tools freehand on the grinders: scrapers, parting tools, bedan, some bowl gouges, etc.) I'll have to see how the 1200 grit wheel changes things for the skews. After seeing the initial results with the spindle gouges I may end up getting a 1200 for the grinder too. I have an 8' long space for my sharpening station and it's starting to get tight... :-)

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

Yea, the dust is a problem with the CBN wheels. I don't think magnets are a good solution, but they will get most. I am thinking a bench top air scrubber and hood, with the intake off to the side a bit so the air scrubber doesn't inhale any sparks. Hoping that using lapping fluid will cut down on the dust considerably. I have had 'fuzzy tools' when I do a lot of sharpening and lay them down by the grinder... My oldest set of CBN wheels are 5 or more years old, can't remember any more. They are a lot slower to take off metal than they used to be and if I go to a new wheel to do minimal shaping the difference is pretty huge. They still leave an excellent cutting edge. I haven't done production turning for several years, but they have seen a lot of use. Glen Lucas 'finds good homes for his 1 year old CBN wheels'. I plan to ask him why when I get to meet him in KC at the Symposium. As for grading the Tormek wheels, I had an old grey one that I wore out. When ever I tried to grade it to the fine grit, there were always patches that would stay coarse, no matter how much attention I paid to my grading process. If you want to reshape a tool, serious reshaping I am talking about, 36 grit belt or wheel on high speed grinder. Most saw sharpening shops will have them if you don't. Otherwise, just change it a bit at a time......

robo hippy

[Pat Scott]

I wore out the original white wheel and a replacement grey wheel on my Tormek. A new white wheel is $185, grey wheel is $210, and in 2015 a CBN for my Tormek was $245. So it was a no brainer for me to spend a few more dollars on the CBN from WoodTurners Wonders and not ever have to worry about the wheel getting smaller or having to grade the wheel. Those are the two biggest reasons for going to a CBN wheel in my opinion.

I must admit I'm not very nice to my wheels. I like the water bath on the stone wheel that collects all the shavings. Yes I know you're suppose to empty the trough afterwards but I never did - I just added more water to it as needed. The CBN wheel can get a loud tinny (sp?) noise as you grind towards the edge of the wheel. It's almost like you need to wear earplugs. I also missed the water bath and don't like the filings building up on the edge of the tool as I grind. So I still use water in the trough with my CBN to help dampen noise and collect filings. Yes I know that you're suppose to dry the wheel afterwards but I don't. The surface of the wheel looks a little rough, maybe rusted, but it doesn't seem to affect the performance at all. I'd like to find something like Trend Lapping Fluid in a large enough quantity that I could use it instead of water.

I got a 320 grit Tormek wheel, and if I had to do it over again I'd go for a 220 grit. I only use my Tormek for sharpening bowl and spindle gouges, and I use a dry grinder for everything else. I have the adapter to use the Tormek jig on a dry grinder (with 180 grit CBN), but I find it removes too much material too fast. I'll use that setup for sharpening my 3/4" bowl gouge, but all my other gouges are done on the Tormek and it takes 10-15 seconds at most to sharpen an edge.

When I talked to Glenn Lucas last year, he said he doesn't use a CBN wheel on his Tormek machines.

[Jim Seyfried]

Thank you for such a detailed review John! I need to make a more dedicated sharpening station, the other day I must have used either the dry grinder base or the Wolverine sharpening jig to help me stand up and knocked the Delta grinder on the floor. Thought I might have ruined a CBN wheel. They were alright, but I bent the shaft on the grinder. I guess that was better than running the CBN wheel as they were more expensive. Was thinking about getting one for the Tormek even though I have the life time replacement for the grinding stone. Now I am looking for a new dry grinder. :( Probably will get the 1hp Rikon, would be nice to get a Baldor, but I'm having trouble justifying the price difference.

Pat, I didn't know that you are supposed to remove the water when done using the Tormek. I must have skipped that part of the manual, is it bad for the wheel to leave it in? Typically it evaporates on mine. Now that I have added a Wolverine jig it is more difficult to remove the tray to empty it. For using water with the CBN wheel on I wonder if one of the additives to coolant for metal working would keep the metal dust from rusting/discoloring the wheel?

[Reed Gray]

The 1 hp Rikon is a pretty good grinder for the price, and has power to spare. Biggest difference between the Rikon and the Baldor, other than price is the Rikon is noisier. Add a bit to final fit and finish, the Baldor is way above the Rikon. First thing I did with my Rikon, was remove the tool rests they supplied, and the light which would just barely reach to shine where you wanted it. I wanted it bolted to a piece of plywood so I could take it for demonstrations, so I took the rubber feet off. I had to grind 1/8 inch off of one of the feet to get it to sit flat on the plywood, that is how far off the castings were. With the wheel guards, one I could pivot a little so the robo rest would slide up to the proper position. The other side, I had to ream out the bolt holes and rotate the wheel guard about 1/2 inch so I could slide my robo rest up on that side. I also had to put the Wolverine platform up on about a 5/8 thick piece of plywood to get it to height, which is a pretty minimal problem. It does have plenty of power, 1 hp compared to the Baldor's 3/4 hp. I would rate them equally strong. Oh, 5/8 shaft on the Rikon, 3/4 on the Baldor.

robo hippy

[Jim Seyfried]

Robo Hippy, do you find the Wheel guards to be useful for dust or safety? The best price I have found for the Rikon sells them without them.

[Reed Gray]

With the CBN wheels, they are not needed for safety because there is zero chance of the wheel ever blowing up, which as near as I can tell is why they are on in the first place. I keep the inside part on for some minimal dust containment, though I don't know how much is will actually contain. I kind of cringe when I see grinders with no wheel shroud on. They do put a lot of fine dust into the air that does not just fall down from gravity, but floats like wood dust does and can do. My preference would be a spacer so I can put the outside guard on, which would totally enclose the wheel, then a slow flow type of dust collector to pick up 98% of the metal fines. There are specialized dust collectors for standard grinders, but they are pretty expensive. This is part of why I am using the lapping fluids on my tools, to see if it helps keep the dust down.

robo hippy

[John K Jordan]

I have my grinders mounted much like Reed's, on plywood. I use the plywood for stability, flexibility to move things as needed, and to fasten down the wolverine and Tormek bases. At one time I clamped the plywood to a wooden bench but found it is not needed. (I also don't want to drill holes in the stainless steel tables!)

I also discovered the castings on the Rikon grinders are sloppy. (And the light on the 1-hp is worse than worthless - shame on them.) My 2-cents is the guards aren't needed for the CBN wheels although some kind might be good for dust collection. The stock guards would be too small for the CBN wheels I have, though.

This is an older picture of part of my sharpening station showing the 600 CBN wheel on the Tormek. Since this picture I've replaced the CBN on the grinder with one with 90-deg corners instead of radiused edges and replaced the two traditional grinding wheels with CBN wheels including one 80 grit for rough tool shaping. I kept the metal-polishing wheel.

361002

One of the grinders in the picture is the old no-name that Woodcraft used to sell and the other is a 1/2 hp Rikon. I thought the 1/2 horse was under-powered so bought a 1-hp Rikon when it was on sale.

You want a great grinder - look at Metabo. I got one for my little welding shop and have a grinding wheel and a coarse 8" wire brush I use to clean up steel before welding. A wire brush will really test a grinder! I have this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0054M9546

JKJ

[Bill Boehme]

I would think that with a metal grinding wheel, aluminum or steel, if you add water, the filings will rust as well, but don't know....

So, who cares if the steel swarf (or dust in the case of the Tormek) rusts? :D. The water tray on my Tormek is permanently brown on the lower part of the inside because of rust. I have a supermagnet glued on the bottom outside of the water tray and essentially all of the steel particles collect on the inside over the magnet. Since the wheel is being continually bathed in water there is very little swarf that remains on the wheel itself ... Just a slight bit of discoloration that has no effect on the performance of the wheel.

The stone on my Tormek isn't too far from needing to be replaced and I've been considering getting a CBN wheel, but didn't think that I would like the 600 grit wheel so this information about a 1200 grit wheel is very timely and much appreciated. I also wanted to be able to run the wheel in water to eliminate the dust problem.

[Steve Mathews]

... I'd like to find something like Trend Lapping Fluid in a large enough quantity that I could use it instead of water....

You might want to try HoneRite Gold Honing Solution. It's highly concentrated and mixes with water.

http://www.boratool.com/hone-right-gold-250ml

[Reed Gray]

Steve, I was looking at that, and on the can, it says that it is specifically for water stones. Their other product, which smells like mineral spirits is intended for oil stones. Do you know if there are any performance differences?

robo hippy

[Steve Mathews]

Steve, I was looking at that, and on the can, it says that it is specifically for water stones. Their other product, which smells like mineral spirits is intended for oil stones. Do you know if there are any performance differences?

robo hippy

I just started using HoneRite Gold for sharpening bench chisels and hand planes after viewing a few videos by Rob Cosman. That's what he uses on his ceramic and diamond (steel backed) stones and mentions it frequently. It's expensive and sometimes hard to find because it seems to go out of stock quickly. A little bit goes a long way though as it's in a concentrated form. Sorry I don't have any comparisons to offer as I'm just getting started with this sharpening obsession.

[John K Jordan]

I just started using HoneRite Gold for sharpening bench chisels and hand planes after viewing a few videos by Rob Cosman. That's what he uses on his ceramic and diamond (steel backed) stones and mentions it frequently. It's expensive and sometimes hard to find because it seems to go out of stock quickly. A little bit goes a long way though as it's in a concentrated form. Sorry I don't have any comparisons to offer as I'm just getting started with this sharpening obsession.

I wonder if it's similar to the recirculating coolant I bought for my metal-cutting horizontal. It comes concentrated in a gallon jug and you mix it with water. I was afraid it would rust the blades eventually but after 4 years I haven't seen any rust.

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

Woodcraft does carry it, not sure who else. I would think for any CBN grinding wheel I would want an oil based lubricant, but they probably all work. The owner of the Woodcraft store that hosts our club meetings used it in his demo. No idea really, I have tried WD40, and it works, no way to accurately compare though...

robo hippy

[Steve Mathews]

I wonder if it's similar to the recirculating coolant I bought for my metal-cutting horizontal. It comes concentrated in a gallon jug and you mix it with water. I was afraid it would rust the blades eventually but after 4 years I haven't seen any rust.

JKJ

I read somewhere that water is ideal for keeping ground metal in suspension and allowing the abrasive to do its work. Apparently oils have a tendency of preventing fine abrasives (4000 grit and above?) from making contact with the surface being abraded. The problem with water however is it promotes rust. I think the main purpose of HoneRite is to allow the use of water while addressing one of its downsides by adding corrosion inhibitors. That's my current take on it for the time being. According to the HoneRite label, HoneRite Gold "Makes Water Non-Corrosive" - "Use with all brands of powered wet stone grinding machines, Japanese water stones and diamond whetstones."

Edit: I forgot to mention that in the context of this thread and 1200 grit media the benefits of HoneRite Gold are probably lost in my opinion. Just about any liquid including oil based stuff will work just as well with the later providing corrosion protection.

[Steve Mathews]

Woodcraft does carry it, not sure who else. I would think for any CBN grinding wheel I would want an oil based lubricant, but they probably all work. The owner of the Woodcraft store that hosts our club meetings used it in his demo. No idea really, I have tried WD40, and it works, no way to accurately compare though...

robo hippy

Yes, Woodcraft is a good source for HoneRite Gold. They frequently sell out of it though, probably because of their ties to Rob Cosman and his endorsement of the product. Amazon is also a good source. It may be a little cheaper and I believe its currently on Prime.

[Jim Seyfried]

I see that Ken has a new "affordable Spartan CBN" wheel. The difference for the 10" wheel is that it doesn't have the 1" flat side. There have been a few occasions that I have used the side of the stone, for the back of an old chisel for instance, but not really for sharpening edges. Just wondering if others find the side of the wheel useful or something you wouldn't miss.

[John K Jordan]

I see that Ken has a new "affordable Spartan CBN" wheel. The difference for the 10" wheel is that it doesn't have the 1" flat side. There have been a few occasions that I have used the side of the stone, for the back of an old chisel for instance, but not really for sharpening edges. Just wondering if others find the side of the wheel useful or something you wouldn't miss.

Jim, I've had three Tormek wheels with grit on the side, the original (of course), a 600 grit CBN, and a 1200 grit CBN I use now. BTW, for my use like the 1200 grit the best, especially for my spindle gouges. I do use the side of the wheel occasionally, mostly for flattening the tops scrapers. I did use the flat side of the water wheel more for things that now shouldn't be ground on CBN such as the unhardened sides of screwdrivers. I do occasionally use the 90 corner at the edge of the wheel for sharpening special purpose tools, again, mostly scrapers. I've thought of using it to sharpen drill bits but I haven't tried that yet.

However, I don't use either the corner or the side enough to prevent considering a wheel without side grit. I do have a 600 grit wheel (with corners and flat sides) mounted on an 8" 1/2 speed grinder so I could use it instead if needed. If budget were an issue or if I didn't already have CBN wheels I'd be tempted to try the new plastic CBN wheels.

JKJ

[Pat Scott]

Woodturners Wonders now has a Spartan CBN wheel for Tormek grinders for $179.95, with grits of 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, and 1200. The Spartan line has a "tough nylon" core instead of aluminum or steel. For that price why by a stone wheel?