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allen long
05-23-2017, 6:24 PM
Has anyone had a chance to compare David Barron's magnetic dovetail guide to Lee Valley's version. They look quite similar. Yeah, yeah, I know I should practice dovetails strictly by hand, but David's demo at handworks was pretty slick. I would normally go with his guide, but I spent way too much on other things like the bad axe bayonet saw (and yes I do see the irony there). I have a little credit at Lee Valley that would allow me to get their guide sooner than later.

I would appreciate any insight or hands on knowledge/experience.

Many Kind Regards . . . Allen

lowell holmes
05-23-2017, 7:16 PM
https://smhttp-ssl-55170.nexcesscdn.net/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/0/100-014_add_1.jpg

This is my favorite dovetail guide. It is a Kell.

allen long
05-23-2017, 7:23 PM
That is really more of a marker (a fine one at that). The guides I am talking about are actually used with a saw and hold the saw in place with a rare earth magnet while you saw the dovetails. It keeps the saw at the correct angle and square as you saw.

Jim Koepke
05-23-2017, 8:08 PM
David's demo at handworks was pretty slick.

The people doing demonstrations have had a lot of practice. It will look slick from all the practice.

Like many others my dovetail cutting was improved by lots of practice. Get a couple 2' pieces of inexpensive 1X4 material and make a set of dovetails to put them together. Try to determine what went wrong if they are not perfect. If they are perfect, try and figure what went right. Then cut them off as close to the corner as you can, square up the ends and do it again.

I turned a few 8' 1X4s in to little pieces of firewood doing this, but my dovetails got a whole lot better.

jtk

Mike Henderson
05-23-2017, 8:38 PM
https://smhttp-ssl-55170.nexcesscdn.net/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/0/100-014_add_1.jpg

This is my favorite dovetail guide. It is a Kell.

My experience with dovetail markers is that a marker that goes "in" works better than a marker that goes "out", as the one you show in the picture.

The reason is as follows: When you're marking a dovetail at the end of the board, a lot of an "out" marker is hanging off the end of the board.

Here's some pictures, using a couple of Lee Valley Dovetail markers. The "outie" is the old one and the "innie" is the one they sell now. Assume you're going to start your first dovetail 1/4 inch from the end of the board.

360777

When you use an "innie", there's no problem marking the dovetail.
360776

360779

When you use an "outie" you're balancing the marker on that 1/4 inch at the end.
360778

But you have plenty of support when doing the other side of the dovetail.
360780

I think the balancing problem is the reason LV changed their design. The Kell has a "bar" that helps support the dovetail when marking on the end of the board, but there would be more support if it was an "innie" instead of an "outie"

Mike

lowell holmes
05-23-2017, 9:09 PM
I have both guides. I use the Kell more.

lowell holmes
05-23-2017, 9:13 PM
I don't ride the saw on the guide. I learned to saw on a line. I find it to be more accurate. It's a matter of "different strokes for different folks". :)

Tony Joyce
05-23-2017, 10:18 PM
360784David Barron Guide
360792Veritas Guide

The Veritas guide has a built in clamp. It appears to be more versatile.

I don't own either.

David Wong
05-23-2017, 10:49 PM
I built a version of the David Barron guide, based on this article at the woodworkers institute (http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/furniture-cabinetmaking/projects/workshop-jigs/make-a-magnetic-dovetail-guide/). I used it with a japanese saw to cut dovetails in 1/4 inch thick boards for a small tool tray. The guide is very easy to use, but still requires some attention. It is possible to rock the saw sideways if you are rushing or not paying attention. You can see in the picture Tony Joyce posted of the guide, that there is plastic covering the magnet. The plastic is proud of the rest of the aluminum body, so you can rock the saw slightly. Just make sure to watch the cut and saw straight to avoid this.

I made my version to cut dovetails at a 4 to 1 ratio, specifically for thin stock.

ken hatch
05-23-2017, 11:57 PM
Allen;

To somewhat answer your question. I've tested the LV guide but not the DB one. While I found the guide for the most part works as advertised it is fiddly and a little bit of a pain to use. I can't speak for the DB one because I have not tried it but I expect the results would be the same. That said, the local Woodcraft has someone teaching dovetails using the DB guide and system and they are producing good DT from the get go. My take is it depends on your goal, finish a project with better than your skill level dovetails or finish a project with good dovetails but at your skill level and at the same time improve that skill, You pays your money and accept the results.

Hope that helps,

ken

PS. There ain't nothing wrong with a little "pooky" to close the gaps or using shims and saw kerfs to close the gaps....The joint is still strong and functional and the only person that will notice is you and maybe another woodworker unless you can't keep your mouth shut :o.

allen long
05-24-2017, 11:03 AM
Thanks for all the great information

I may still get one of the guides as they look especially useful for small dovetails in thinner material. While, I will stick to practicing the larger dovtails without the guide.

Many Kind Regards . . . Allen

Mike Brady
05-24-2017, 11:47 AM
When making dovetail joints it is helpful to mark out all the cut lines (I use a fine pencil) even if you use a sawing guide....its a matter of visualizing the finished product. The kel guide above is attractive, but really only marks the face of the board, while the sawing actually begins with an end-grain cut. For this reason, I would only use a marker that marked the face and the end grain at the same time. I have made several of these from scrap wood, in different pitches. I do cut my dovetails free-hand, except for the half pins on either edge of the tail board, where I use a shop-made sawing guide for just the cross-cut at the base line. I do this because that cut is the single most critical cut to be made in the entire joint: if those crosscuts are off-line the joint will never fit tightly. With that sawing guide I use the Kugihiki flush-cut pull saw, the smoothest cutting saw I have ever seen. It also will not cut the sawing guide because it is a no-set saw. I should also add that I mark the baseline with Tite-Mark so that I can have my saw or chisel fall right into that marked line, which keeps that all-important baseline continuity.

I have no experience with any dovetail sawing guide, although I did watch David Barron use his to great effect. Honestly, he would no doubt make flawless dovetails without it, but the idea is to make you successful at it and him richer by $65. Nothing wrong with that bargain. I'm not sure I would like the magnetic aspect of his guides. I suspect they would work just as well without the magnets and promote better free-hand sawing. In any case you still have to saw in the right place (to the line) to end up with a successful dovetail joint.

James Jayko
05-24-2017, 12:08 PM
Has anyone had a chance to compare David Barron's magnetic dovetail guide to Lee Valley's version. They look quite similar. Yeah, yeah, I know I should practice dovetails strictly by hand, but David's demo at handworks was pretty slick. I would normally go with his guide, but I spent way too much on other things like the bad axe bayonet saw (and yes I do see the irony there). I have a little credit at Lee Valley that would allow me to get their guide sooner than later.

I would appreciate any insight or hands on knowledge/experience.

Many Kind Regards . . . Allen

FWIW, I spent a lot of time over the last ~6 months trying to get proficient at making dovetails. Using the standard marking guide and a western saw I've gotten to the point where they're "serviceable," but far from "great."

I saw a video using the Japanese saw and the magnetic guide, and it seemed like a better way. Ordered both, and pretty quickly I could make more or less perfect dovetails. To me, the reasons seem to be threefold. First, I found it pretty difficult to push a western saw through while maintaining a perfect 90 degree angle in the cut. Wonder just a little and the gaps open up. Still serviceable with practice, but nowhere near perfect. The second thing is that the Japanese saw has a far thinner kerf, so there is less of the "...then move the pin board over just a TINY bit and mark the tails..." or "...cut into the waste area leaving just a touch of the line..." You can more or less just mark with a knife and cut. Third, the pull stroke of the Japanese saw seems to make it far easier to follow a knife line to get it started perfectly.

Note that given the size of David Barron's guide, some of the Japanese saws at your Woodcraft won't be deep enough. The Gyokucho 372 that you can buy on Amazon for ~$40 is perfect.

andy bessette
05-24-2017, 12:16 PM
MH--good post.

Edwin Santos
05-24-2017, 3:55 PM
I have used both the Lee Valley and the DB guide. Just my opinion, but I say the DB guide is superb and the LV version is one to avoid.

David Barron has some excellent videos and I have found all his advice to be very sound. Examples include the use of a dovetail alignment board for keeping edges aligned and preventing a work piece from becoming cocked when marking. The method he endorses for chopping out the waste for the half pins has worked well for me. I also notice that he has a video on hand cutting dovetails without using his guide which I feel demonstrates his commitment to the craft, not just selling his tools.
Don't listen to people who bash dovetail guides as training wheels. I see a hierarchy where hand cutting in the traditional way is at the one end, the dovetail guide might be in the middle and a router jig on the other end. You can choose among and between these alternatives depending on the project at hand, your personal preferences and the time you have available. All these methods have their place and their merits. It doesn't have to be either/or.

Also, while the DB guide simplifies the process, it doesn't make it automatic or foolproof. You'll find some practice is in order. Marking and chiseling skills are just as necessary as they are using the traditional method. The only thing the guide is truly aiding is the sawing which is not the only skill in dovetailing.

Noah Magnuson
05-24-2017, 4:12 PM
... I would normally go with his guide, but I spent way too much on other things like the bad axe bayonet saw (and yes I do see the irony there). ...

Many Kind Regards . . . Allen

Just wanted to congratulate you on a fine saw choice. That bayonet has been my go-to since I got one. It is truly an ideal balance, shape and size for so many things. I feel like a cyborg with a saw for a hand when I am using it. Not to mention Mark does a superb tune-job on the teeth.

Joe Williams
05-25-2017, 2:17 AM
FWIW, I spent a lot of time over the last ~6 months trying to get proficient at making dovetails. Using the standard marking guide and a western saw I've gotten to the point where they're "serviceable," but far from "great."

I saw a video using the Japanese saw and the magnetic guide, and it seemed like a better way. Ordered both, and pretty quickly I could make more or less perfect dovetails. To me, the reasons seem to be threefold. First, I found it pretty difficult to push a western saw through while maintaining a perfect 90 degree angle in the cut. Wonder just a little and the gaps open up. Still serviceable with practice, but nowhere near perfect. The second thing is that the Japanese saw has a far thinner kerf, so there is less of the "...then move the pin board over just a TINY bit and mark the tails..." or "...cut into the waste area leaving just a touch of the line..." You can more or less just mark with a knife and cut. Third, the pull stroke of the Japanese saw seems to make it far easier to follow a knife line to get it started perfectly.

Note that given the size of David Barron's guide, some of the Japanese saws at your Woodcraft won't be deep enough. The Gyokucho 372 that you can buy on Amazon for ~$40 is perfect.

I am no dovetail expert but it sounds to me like you are wanting to saw dovetails and have them be perfect without having to pare them or anything? Is that a thing? I can do serviceable to decent but I have to pare them with chisels, even the tails.

Niels J. Larsen
05-25-2017, 11:07 AM
Has anyone had a chance to compare David Barron's magnetic dovetail guide to Lee Valley's version. They look quite similar. Yeah, yeah, I know I should practice dovetails strictly by hand, but David's demo at handworks was pretty slick. I would normally go with his guide, but I spent way too much on other things like the bad axe bayonet saw (and yes I do see the irony there). I have a little credit at Lee Valley that would allow me to get their guide sooner than later.

I would appreciate any insight or hands on knowledge/experience.

Many Kind Regards . . . Allen

I have not tried the LV version, so cannot say either good or bad about it.
However I have bought the David Barron's guide only after stumbling on one of his excellent how-to videos on YouTube, which I can highly recommend.

I have to build a cabinet that sits below the sink in a bathroom I'm renovating (is it called a vanity across the pond?) and I decided to try using dovetails for the drawers.

Now, the purist in me originally focused on dovetails cut without any "cheating" in the form of guides or similar, but after thinking a bit about all the guides I use for my routers, cabinet saw etc. I didn't really see the point in avoiding them for handcut dovetails.

The David Barron guide works *exactly* as good as David shows in the videos and when coupled with a standard Japanese Dozuki saw you get extremely straight cuts.

I have nothing but positive to say about the guide and you don't need any clamps or similar to hold it securely while you cut.

lowell holmes
05-25-2017, 11:19 AM
Check out Paul Sellers hand made dovetail guide. You will find his article online. I have a wooden one I made in one of his classes many years ago.

Ted Phillips
05-25-2017, 12:44 PM
I used the LV guide a lot when I first started cutting dovetails. However, as my skills got better and better, I found that the guide was reinforcing some really bad habits and it was holding me back. So I ditched the guide, bought a couple of "Saddle Tail" marking guides from Sterling Tool Works and started to learn how to cut freehand. It was a liberating experience - and it turned me into a much better sawyer.

I *highly recommend* Sterling's Saddle Tails. They are the best dovetail markers and saddle squares on the whole darned planet. And Chris is a pleasure to deal with.


http://www.sterlingtoolworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Dove-Tail-Markers-Saddle-Tail-5-1024x733.jpg

andy bessette
05-25-2017, 1:12 PM
What dovetail angles are you guys using for various hardwoods?

Mike Henderson
05-25-2017, 1:54 PM
What dovetail angles are you guys using for various hardwoods?

I use 1:7 which is about 8 degrees if I recall correctly. There's no "correct answer". Within limits, it's all what you like. If you go too small, you lose the advantage of it being a dovetail and it's more like finger joints. If you go too much, you wind up with "short grain" and the ears of your tails can break off when you go to assemble the joint.

Mike

[While you can spend a lot of money and buy commercial dovetail saddles (for marking your dovetails), they're pretty easy to make. I've made them in wood and brass. Pictures on request.]

Jim Koepke
05-25-2017, 2:11 PM
cut into the waste area leaving just a touch of the line

This was one of my problems when first starting to learn the making of dovetails.

Whether the tails are cut first and used to mark the pins or the pins are cut first and used to mark the tails, the line is completely outside of the waste area. My recollection is it being Frank Klausz always said "learn to saw to the line." As in not through the line. When that finally sunk in my dovetail work got much better.

I have made a few wooden markers but prefer these:

360884

One is a 1:8 ratio for hardwoods the other is a 1:6 ratio for softwoods.

jtk

Edwin Santos
05-25-2017, 2:27 PM
What dovetail angles are you guys using for various hardwoods?

Speaking in terms of aesthetics, I feel the thickness of your stock is a factor in choosing your particular angle for a project. In my experience if the stock is 1/2" or less, angles less than 1:6 can look too subtle and resemble box joints. For example if you used 1:8 on stock that was 3/8" thick, I question whether it would look like a dovetail at all. However 1:7 and 1:8 can look very good in thicker stock where the angle runs long enough to get away from the box joint look. Of course, the look at any angle is also highly influenced by how thin you lay out your pins. I like narrower pins personally, and 1:6 is my go-to, 1:5 if the stock is thinner, and 1:7 if thicker. I think it's all personal preference in our age of high quality glue.

Jim Koepke
05-25-2017, 2:30 PM
I think it's all personal preference in our age of high quality glue.

Some folks do not even measure or mark. Just cut the pins or tails and mark the other side from the first. They would likely look at you funny if you asked what ratio or angle was used.

jtk

Hasin Haroon
05-25-2017, 3:43 PM
Allen,

I defer to all the experts who posted before me about the pros and cons of using dovetail guides, but for your question specifically, I think there's something you need to consider - you mentioned you purchased a bad axe bayonet, and the LV dovetail guide is meant to be used with a japanese style saw (the blade will bottom out on the guide due to the presence of the back and the small plate on your bayonet). So if you want to get a dovetail guide that works with your saw, you'll have to go with the DB or a homemade one.

Edwin Santos
05-25-2017, 3:57 PM
Some folks do not even measure or mark. Just cut the pins or tails and mark the other side from the first. They would likely look at you funny if you asked what ratio or angle was used.

jtk

That may be so, but those folks are still making a cut at some angle/ratio, they just don't know (or maybe don't care) what that angle is. There are those that have a very good eye and can work without marking with very good consistency. Then there are others that feel the work is more authentic if there is variation in angles, and spacing too. Others are in pursuit of precision, order and consistency. I guess there's no right or wrong and it's all a matter of preference.

To your point, Frank Klausz would scream at a student who tried to mark or measure dovetails.

lowell holmes
05-26-2017, 12:24 AM
Some folks do not even measure or mark. Just cut the pins or tails and mark the other side from the first. They would likely look at you funny if you asked what ratio or angle was used.

jtk

I've seen Paul Sellers do it.

John Kananis
05-26-2017, 2:59 AM
I've seen Paul Sellers do it.

Frank Klausz has always preached this. If I remember correctly, Paul Sellers has a video on using another 'backer' board as a guide. Cost is a piece of scrap wood, that being said, do 'em by hand and hone your skill.

allen long
05-26-2017, 2:04 PM
Hasin,

You are correct Sir! I plan o get good Japanese saw and use the guide for thin materials. I plan on honing my "without a guide" skills using the Bad Axe or my LN dovetail saw.

As far as dovetail markers go, I plan on making one made out of copper based on Ralph Boumenot's design (I can't seem to find the post to show you though - Ralph, Over to you!)