Hammer K3 Winner versus Felder K 500

[Izzy Charo]

Hello,
I'm interested in a small high-quality sliding table saw, and two machines seem to fit the bill: the Hammer K3 Winner 48 x48; and the Felder K500 51 x 31(48). I wish I had room for a longer slider, but my homeshop is not that large. It's a bit hard to compare the prices because the list prices don't seem to be what the machines actually sell for..so, I'm wondering if the folks on this forum think that the Felder machine is significantly superior to the Hammer... Thanks for all responses!
Izzy

[David Kumm]

The K500 has Hammer internals with a better sliding table. I believe the cast iron is ground a little better on the K500. Dave

[John Lankers]

Also, the K500 is about 200# heavier (depending on configuration) which helps to absorb vibrations better and the over all fit and finish of the Felder is more "polished".
I'd say it depends on your preference and budget, both are very capable machines.

[scott vroom]

I recently purchased a K3 winner 48 x 48 with a 50" slider cutting capacity. I wanted a saw that could double as a slider and a traditional cabinet saw. The 50" slider is flush with the table when fully forward on the out feed side which allows me to stand behind the saw for traditional cabinet saw operation. On all the other small format sliders I looked at the slider track protrudes way past the saw table, which renders in inconvenient at best and dangerous at worst for traditional rips using the fence. Longer rips can be made on the 50" slider by using a simple 8' x 12" plywood jig with a T track.

[Dan Friedrichs]

The Felder uses the "X-roll" cylindrical bearings, while the Hammer uses standard ball bearings. I have a Hammer, and the fit and finish is very good (much better than most Asian imports), but not extraordinary.

It's hard to say how much more the Felder is worth - obviously depends on your situation, use plans, how much value you attach to looks vs function, etc. If I were in the market, again, and could buy the Felder for 25-40% more, I'd probably do it and feel like I got a good deal. If it were 50% more, it would be a hard decision.

[Izzy Charo]

Hi Scott,
Thanks...very helpful! Any chance you could post a picture of the plywood jig you use for ripping longer wood with the slider? The 48 x48 is the model I'm leaning towards for exactly the reasons you cited. Did you purchase any accessories for the Hammer (Dado or Scoring Blade)... And in terms of pricing, do you know if they periodically run "sales" or is it a negotiation with the company.
Thanks again,
Izzy

[David Kumm]

Scott's point about the sider sitting flush with the front is a huge deal. I run several old iron short stroke sliders because I like that flexibility. Felder used to make a 7 series " Eco " that was like that but with the heavier Felder internals. I wish they still did. Dave

[John Lankers]

Here is a link to "Extreme Woodworker's" YouTube channel, Steve recently posted a video series explaining the use of the sliding tablesaw and an in depth tutorial showing several different ways to rip safely on a slider.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmE...hepnFlyXFkWwsQ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmE9bhjfyhepnFlyXFkWwsQ)
I apologize Izzy if this does not directly relate to your question but might still be of interest.

[scott vroom]

Izzy, I just ordered the saw so don't have a jig yet. Here's a vid showing a jig with a T track. He's got a 79" slider so the jig is longer, but you get the idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--M-Iz2pw1k

This is from the Hammer-Felder web site showing a photo of a jig using their T track. http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Accessories/Sliding-table-accessories/HAMMER-Trimming-Equipment.html

Here's what I purchased:

K3W 48 x 48

Accessories:
Outrigger table 1100 for F3/C3-31 with sliding table up to 1250 mm
Crosscut fence 1300 mm with 1 crosscut stop, without mounting unit, scale in mm and inch
Mounting set for crosscut fence on outrigger table 2000
Mitre indexing system for outrigger 1100 with indexing point á 5° plus 22.5° except 35°
Micro Adjustment for saw fence with round tube guide
Telescopic extension 1650/2050 mm for for crosscut fence 900/1300 mm

I didn't get the $437 optional mechanical scoring unit. I don't work with laminates and with a zero clearance insert I don't believe I'll need it for hardwood veneer plywood.

Hammer sells factory direct and refused to negotiate pricing. They did, at my request, upgrade at no cost from the included standard blade to the $81 rip blade.

The Hammer rep told me prices were increasing May 20 so if you are leaning toward the Hammer you might want to call the rep and get the details.

[Izzy Charo]

Thanks! I very much appreciate the input from everyone!! This has been extremely helpful to me...
Izzy

[James Zhu]

I rarely use my slider as a traditional cabinet saw, I do not even remember when was the last time I did that.

The very first jig any slider owner should make is Fritz and Franz jig, Steve (extreme Woodworker) has a video for it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0PyFjtSHrE&t=595s. That is probably the only jig you need for the slider.

This youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYUss6pJqQ&t=3s) from Felder demonstrates all the techniques you can use on the slider, worth watching (multiple times).

James

[Izzy Charo]

A basic question for slider users: On the Hammer 48 x 48, I assume you would need the outrigger only if you wanted to crosscut something longer than 48 inches--is that correct? And can the outriggers be easily swung away when not in use, or do you need to mount them to the saw each time you need them?
Thanks!
Izzy

[John Lankers]

I assume the Hammer and Felder machines share many similarities in regards to the functioning of the outrigger, if so then it should only be a matter of seconds to remove the crosscut fence and the outrigger.
These 2 videos show the full combination machine but you will get an idea of how the saw functions and how it is operated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgellk8U85w&t=10s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8WcPOd5g7w

[Dan Friedrichs]

You can leave the outrigger on all the time, if you like. The sliding table is only ~12" wide, and you can mount a "short" fence directly to it, but that means anything longer than ~20" is awkward to support on just the table. The outrigger comes on and off in seconds, but mine stays on all the time.

[Izzy Charo]

Good to know about the outrigger...but just so I understand... on the 48 x 48 Hammer (for example) can you crosscut to 48 inches by having the cutoff on the right side of the blade? Or am I missing something really basic here...
Thanks!
Izzy

[James Zhu]

Good to know about the outrigger...but just so I understand... on the 48 x 48 Hammer (for example) can you crosscut to 48 inches by having the cutoff on the right side of the blade? Or am I missing something really basic here...
Thanks!
Izzy

Yes, you can. When you cut using sliding table, the curoff is always on the right side of the blade. When you use the saw as traditional saw, the cutoff is on the left side of the blade.

[Izzy Charo]

Thanks James... In my case there not be much room to the left of the slider (probably not enough for an outrigger) but I was hoping I could still cut a 48 inch long piece by keeping it mostly to the right of the blade. Appreciate your help!
Izzy

[Jim Becker]

I leave the outrigger on my slider now that I've rearranged things slightly to make it less impactful to my shop space. My preference is not to be removing and re-installing it with any frequency to insure nothing get's out of kilter in alignment, etc.

[Izzy Charo]

Hi Scott,
Your saw is set-up similar to what I had in mind...just wondering about the outrigger: can you tell me how much room to the left of the saw your outrigger requires? And does it fold in towards the saw when not in use? (this may be in one of the Hammer/Felder videos, but I missed it). I'm a bit tight on space...
Thanks again,
Izzy

[scott vroom]

I've downloaded the space requirement drawings for the K3W but the file size is too large for SMC and I don't have time to fool with it at the moment. Looking at the drawing, it appears to me that the outrigger itself protrudes ~31.5" from the sliding table, and ~42" to the end of the fence when attached to the outrigger. But as others have said, it takes 90 seconds to remove the outrigger when not in use. So I guess the question for you is whether you even have the shop space to attach the outrigger and fence.

[Andy Giddings]

The 1300mm crosscut rail projects further than the outrigger and that is 38 inches from the left hand side of the sliding table to the end of the fence. Obviously if you had the 900mm fence it would be less :-). The outrigger comes off the machine easily and the support arm folds flat against the side of the machine. As others have said, its easy to remove - I have to do it to store mine and it always goes back on square or as close as I can measure it. Takes about 5 mins and it's not heavy

[Tom Bain]

I have a KF500 Pro and I love it. It was an upgrade from a Delta Unitas when I moved. While the slider takes some getting used to, it's really a joy to use. I have both the outrigger and the shorter crosscut fence and support table. While the outrigger is great for sheet goods, more often than not I use the shorter fence.