Please help me make my first table saw purchase

[Steve Dublanko]

I've recently taken up woodworking and would like to purchase my first table saw. I want to use it to build furniture (kitchen table and a few coffee tables to start). I can't see myself needing to cut anything thicker than 8/4. I've done a ton of research but I can't seem to make up my mind. I have narrowed it down to three choices (all prices in CAD as i'm in Canada):


Rigid R4512 / Delta 36-725 contractor saw for ~$800. If I get a good saw (no alignment or other issues) this should work out well but I worry about getting a lemon. I'm also worried that this might not have enough jam to cut 6/4 or 8/4 hardwood -- I've read that it's ok but that you just have to take it slow.
Pick up an old Unisaw. This is nice in that I get a very powerful saw with a bullet proof design. I'm not a huge fan of the lack of safety features (riving knife) and the lack of a warranty. I've found a few but all of them needed varying degrees of work (fence, alignment, rust, belts, arbor, bearings). I could probably get into one for ~$1000 but that would definitely require some TLC. As an aside to this option - I found a guy locally who purchased a bunch of old unisaws from a trade school. The machines have 3 phase motors and need to be outfitted with a VFD in order to work with 220 1p. For $1650 he will provide a new blade, table insert, arbor nut and compression washer, sandblast w/ new paint, polished top, sawstop 36" t-glide fence system, lenze VFD and delivery w/ setup. I've seen some pictures of his work and it looks solid but $1650 is pretty steep for a used saw.
General International 50-270KDL M1 -- this is on clearance at a local shop -- $2100 (floor model, assembled a few weeks ago but never run).

I guess I'm just looking for some advice. As someone that is just starting out, the choices are a little daunting.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Andy Giddings]

Out of those choices I would go for the Unisaw if you can find a good one. If the guy modding the old trade school saws can give you some references to check from previous sales and they check out, worth a look. After market riving knives can be fitted if that is a concern.

[Mike Henderson]

Out of those choices I would go for the Unisaw if you can find a good one. If the guy modding the old trade school saws can give you some references to check from previous sales and they check out, worth a look. Aftermarket riving knives can be fitted if that is a concern.
I think what you mean is that aftermarket splitters can be fitted. You can't convert an old (non-riving knife) saw to a riving knife.

In my opinion, a riving knife is much better than a splitter.

I'd spend the extra and get the General International. You'll get a new modern saw with a real riving knife and a 3HP single phase motor. While VFDs are good to convert single phase to three phase, one of their big advantages is speed control which you won't use on a table saw. And it's just something more to worry about failing.

Mike

[Steve Dublanko]

This is kind of how I feel as well -- i'm not too keen on having a VFD and a motor to worry about. What would I be giving up by going with the GI over the unisaw? Would I be able to notice a big difference between the two?

[Bill Space]

I would go with the General. Looks like the Grizzly G0690 which gets very positive reviews.

Also the General is left tilt which many seem to prefer. Unisaw is probably right tilt.

As Mike said, a riving knife is very desirable too.

Buy once, by right, and you will be happy for many years.

Bill

[Michelle Rich]

Mike: some older saws can be fitted with a riving knife..check out sharkguard..I just put one on my 30 yr old delta contractor saw.

[lowell holmes]

I fitted my 10" Delta saw (many years ago) with plastic inserts and made wooden splitters. It works better for me than the metal splitter. Google table saw splitter and you will see ideas.

[Andy Giddings]

I think what you mean is that aftermarket splitters can be fitted. You can't convert an old (non-riving knife) saw to a riving knife.

In my opinion, a riving knife is much better than a splitter.

I'd spend the extra and get the General International. You'll get a new modern saw with a real riving knife and a 3HP single phase motor. While VFDs are good to convert single phase to three phase, one of their big advantages is speed control which you won't use on a table saw. And it's just something more to worry about failing.

Mike

No, I meant a riving knife as also stated by Michelle and I agree a riving knife is better than a splitter - that's why I switched my old one

[Steve Reich]

Mike, Michelle is right. I just put on the Shark Guard riving knife on my 30-year old Powermatic contractor saw. Lee Styron at Shark Guard can retrofit his design to almost any saw. And I agree with you, that the riving knife is a lot nicer than a splitter.

[Steve Reich]

Steve, I started this hobby about four years ago and began by buying a used contractor saw. It has taken a lot of TLC to get it into fine working shape, and I am currently very happy with it for what I do. But if I were to do it all over again, knowing what I know now, I'd opt for door number 2 and be patient to look for an old unisaw. These pop up on Craigslist frequently. I would think that you would just have to be patient to find the right one. On the other hand, if you have $2100 in your budget, you might just go for the General and be done with it. But you can probably get a good used unisaw, maybe some with nice aftermarket features (extension tables, outfeed tables, over-the-blade dust port, extra blades, etc.) added by a previous owner, for about $1500 USD. But again, you would have to be patient, and I'm not sure how far you would be willing to drive to pick up a used one.

[Prashun Patel]

If you are willing to spend $2100, then consider (please nobody slam me) a Sawstop PCS. You can get the hybrid for $2300, and the 3hp version for $2800.

There are a lot of nice-to-haves with this:

The fit/finish is comparable to any saw in this price range. Comes with riving knife. Comes with blade brake. Both of the PCS's have a cabinet style base, so they'll be better at dust collection than the contractor saws you're looking at.

the 5hp of the General is nice, but I doubt you'll need it for most 'house-sized' furniture.

There are hidden costs to buying old machinery including elbow grease and possibly upgrading parts. So, don't go that route just to save money.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike: some older saws can be fitted with a riving knife..check out sharkguard..I just put one on my 30 yr old delta contractor saw.

I'm not really familiar with the SharkGuard. But my definition of a riving knife is one that moves up and down, and tilts, with the blade. It sits just below the top of the blade so that you can make non-through cuts with the riving knife on the saw.

The splitters that I'm familiar with, do not go up and down with the blade, nor tilt with the blade. Normally, to make a non-through cut you have to remove a splitter.

Most older saws cannot be converted to a riving knife.

If my definition is correct, I prefer a riving knife because it never has to be removed. Anything that has to be removed and put back on generally does not get put back on.

Mike

[That certainly was the case with my old saw. I finally bought a modern saw and the riving knife stays on it all the time.]

[Mike Henderson]

If you are willing to spend $2100, then consider (please nobody slam me) a Sawstop PCS. You can get the hybrid for $2300, and the 3hp version for $2800.

There are a lot of nice-to-haves with this:

The fit/finish is comparable to any saw in this price range. Comes with riving knife. Comes with blade brake. Both of the PCS's have a cabinet style base, so they'll be better at dust collection than the contractor saws you're looking at.

the 5hp of the General is nice, but I doubt you'll need it for most 'house-sized' furniture.

There are hidden costs to buying old machinery including elbow grease and possibly upgrading parts. So, don't go that route just to save money.

I think the General is a 3HP. I looked the saw up on the web and that's what came up where I looked. Three HP is plenty.

I don't know how often old saws came up for sale, but I got a single phase Unisaw as part of a purchase of a "lot" of tools and sold it for $1,200. It apparently was made just before they started putting riving knives on them because it did not have one.

Mike

[andy bessette]

Don't screw around. Find a quality, used, cabinet saw in excellent condition.

[Steve Reich]

Hi Mike:

You can move the riving knife on the shark guard up and down and thus do not have to remove it for non-through cuts. With my Microjig MJ splitter, I always had to put in a different throat plate for non-through cuts. I'm planning on posting a review of the Shark Guard within a week or two and will try to address these questions.

[Mike Henderson]

Hi Mike:

You can move the riving knife on the shark guard up and down and thus do not have to remove it for non-through cuts. With my Microjig MJ splitter, I always had to put in a different throat plate for non-through cuts. I'm planning on posting a review of the Shark Guard within a week or two and will try to address these questions.

Is it a manual operation to move the SharkGuard up and down, or does it move with the blade, as you raise and lower the blade?

Also, does it tilt with the blade?

A true riving knife moves with the blade, up and down, and tilts (without any manual intervention). It always stays just below the top of the blade. If it doesn't do that, I consider it a splitter and not a riving knife.

I have not seen any kits that will convert an older saw to a true riving knife, but I expect some may exist.

Mike

[Steve Dublanko]

If you are willing to spend $2100, then consider (please nobody slam me) a Sawstop PCS. You can get the hybrid for $2300, and the 3hp version for $2800.

There are a lot of nice-to-haves with this:

The fit/finish is comparable to any saw in this price range. Comes with riving knife. Comes with blade brake. Both of the PCS's have a cabinet style base, so they'll be better at dust collection than the contractor saws you're looking at.

the 5hp of the General is nice, but I doubt you'll need it for most 'house-sized' furniture.

There are hidden costs to buying old machinery including elbow grease and possibly upgrading parts. So, don't go that route just to save money.

Unfortunately, it is much more expensive than that in Canada. Its nearly double the price :(

The cheapest SawStop is $3658 CAD and thats for the 1.75HP version w/ 36" rails. If I upgrade to 3HP and 52" rails (comparable to the general), the price is $4417 which is more than double the cost of the General.

[Steve Reich]

Mike:

No, it does require manual intervention to move it up and down. You have to adjust the knife, then move the blade. I'm not sure if he makes them that will tilt with the blade (I think it all depends on how it attaches to various saws). There was no way to do that with mine, but I never tilt my blade on this contractor saw.

I'll provide details of its operation in the review and make note of the questions that you raise.

Steve

[Steve Dublanko]

The shark guard looks really nice but it would cost me ~$320CAD to purchase which brings the price of a unisaw that much closer to the General.

I really do want to get a quality saw that will last me a lifetime, I'm just not sure which route to go. It seems you guys are pretty split between going with an older unisaw and the new general.

[scott spencer]

For the reasons you mentioned, I'd skip the lighter duty saws if you have 220v and the budget for a 3hp cabinet saw.

A used Uni, General 350/650, or PM66 would be nice if you find one, but the GI looks to be a stout saw. AFAIK, the Craftex CX201 is the same as the Grizzly G0691....could be worth a look too.

[Andy Giddings]

Is it a manual operation to move the SharkGuard up and down, or does it move with the blade, as you raise and lower the blade?

Also, does it tilt with the blade?

A true riving knife moves with the blade, up and down, and tilts (without any manual intervention). It always stays just below the top of the blade. If it doesn't do that, I consider it a splitter and not a riving knife.

I have not seen any kits that will convert an older saw to a true riving knife, but I expect some may exist.

Mike
This one doesn't require any manual intervention once it was installed http://the****store.com/ and stays below the blade

[scott spencer]

This one doesn't require any manual intervention once it was installed http://the****store.com/ and stays below the blade

Sadly, Bob Ross passed away last month, so the B0RK is no longer available.

[Mike Kees]

I went through a craftsman contractor saw, to a delta contractor saw with unifence, to eventually two Unisaws. Each step up was significantly better than the previous saw. A good fence is paramount to a tablesaw that will be fun to use versus frustrating. More power and accuracy and repeatable adjustments (think bevel cuts back to 90 degree) are all things that show up more in a cabinet saw. If you have the pesos buy the cabinet saw to begin with, if not get a contractor saw with a good fence. Of your choices I would buy the Uni, but I am kind of an old Delta fan. FWIW I live in southern Alberta and have bought three used Unisaws for less than $400 in the last couple years.

[Steve Dublanko]

For the reasons you mentioned, I'd skip the lighter duty saws if you have 220v and the budget for a 3hp cabinet saw.

A used Uni, General 350/650, or PM66 would be nice if you find one, but the GI looks to be a stout saw. AFAIK, the Craftex CX201 is the same as the Grizzly G0691....could be worth a look too.

I've looked at a lot of different clones (Magnum Industrial, King, Craftex) and they all make practically the same saw. AFAIK, most of the parts come from the same factory. I have read that the quality control / standards are not as high for the clone brands and I would prefer to stick with General because of it. At $2100 CAD, the General is a good deal (even against the clone competitors).

[Steve Dublanko]

Hi Mike,

Ya, I have found a few on Kijiji around $500. One was in pretty good shape and ran good. Here are some images from a 34-450 I am considering (http://imgur.com/a/tMFr9). This one has a 1.5HP 1 phase motor (no VFD required). It was used sparingly by a retired carpenter and he's asking $550 (firm). Saw ran good (did a few test cuts with it) but it has some rust and would need to be cleaned up. The arbour felt solid (didn't look at the belts). Add a fence and a guard and you're well over $1000. Still, it may be a decent option.

[Andy Giddings]

Sadly, Bob Ross passed away last month, so the B0RK is no longer available.
Sorry to hear about Bob Ross, Scott. He developed an excellent product for those of us with older saws.

[Mike Henderson]

The shark guard looks really nice but it would cost me ~$320CAD to purchase which brings the price of a unisaw that much closer to the General.

I really do want to get a quality saw that will last me a lifetime, I'm just not sure which route to go. It seems you guys are pretty split between going with an older unisaw and the new general.

A riving knife will reduce the potential for a kickback, and if you get a saw with a real riving knife you'll use it all the time. There's a reason why all modern table saws come with riving knives. If it's not required by law, I'll bet it's required for UL, or insurance.

Get a modern saw and don't look back.

Mike

[Even better would be to get a SawStop and get some extra protection for your fingers, but I don't think that's in your budget.]

[Mike Henderson]

Hi Mike,

Ya, I have found a few on Kijiji around $500. One was in pretty good shape and ran good. Here are some images from a 34-450 I am considering (http://imgur.com/a/tMFr9). This one has a 1.5HP 1 phase motor (no VFD required). It was used sparingly by a retired carpenter and he's asking $550 (firm). Saw ran good (did a few test cuts with it) but it has some rust and would need to be cleaned up. The arbour felt solid (didn't look at the belts). Add a fence and a guard and you're well over $1000. Still, it may be a decent option.
If you want a "forever" table saw, get one with more HP than 1.5. You can work with a 1.5 HP saw but a 3HP is much nicer.

And if it's to be a "forever" saw, at least get one with a real riving knife.

Mike

[Rick Potter]

I have a Unisaw with a Beisemeir splitter, and I love it, but it is NOT a riving knife. It sits back away from the blade to allow the blade to go up or down, as opposed to the riving knife remaining a shorter distance from the blade.

I would get a modern saw also. The GI you mention sounds like your best bet. Maybe you can talk the dealer into some extras, like blade inserts or a dado set? Delivery?

[Geoff Crimmins]

Given the features you would like, I would stear clear of anything but a cabinet saw. A used Delta, Powermatic, or General in good condition would be a good choice if you want to save money, don't mind spending some time looking for one, and are comfortable replacing belts and bearings if needed. If you don't mind spending more, want it now, want a riving knife, or don't want to do any initial maintenance on it, then a new saw is your best choice. General International, Powermatic, Jet, and Grizzly all sell Asian saws that are fairly comparable. Sawstop saws are nice, too. I wouldn't buy anything new from Delta because of concerns about the availability of repair parts and the future of the company. Really, see which saw has the features you want and is a good price. I have a Unisaw with a 3hp motor, a removable splitter (similar to the Beisemeier) and an overarm blade guard. It's done everything I need, and I've never wished it had a riving knife. As soon as buy something a better deal will come along.:)

--Geoff

[Darcy Warner]

I don't think a riving knife is an end all be all. Had saws with have saws without.


Never been an issue not having one.

[andy bessette]

"Never been an issue not having one."

Same here. Just use a good carbide blade.

[Michelle Rich]

aren't you asking a lot to have it move with the blade. Expecting a new technology for a 30 yr old saw. It is a riving knife, and it supplies safety for those of us who need it on old saws. Just because I have to move the riving knife up and down with my blade change, does not make it NOT a riving knife. We can play with words, but it is a riving knife.

[Mike Henderson]

aren't you asking a lot to have it move with the blade. Expecting a new technology for a 30 yr old saw. It is a riving knife, and it supplies safety for those of us who need it on old saws. Just because I have to move the riving knife up and down with my blade change, does not make it NOT a riving knife. We can play with words, but it is a riving knife.

Words are important because they allow us to be precise in our communications. I offered my definitions of both splitter and riving knife and I think it's important to distinguish between the two.

Mike

[Roger Marty]

I've recently taken up woodworking and would like to purchase my first table saw. I want to use it to build furniture (kitchen table and a few coffee tables to start). I can't see myself needing to cut anything thicker than 8/4. I've done a ton of research but I can't seem to make up my mind. I have narrowed it down to three choices (all prices in CAD as i'm in Canada):


Rigid R4512 / Delta 36-725 contractor saw for ~$800. If I get a good saw (no alignment or other issues) this should work out well but I worry about getting a lemon. I'm also worried that this might not have enough jam to cut 6/4 or 8/4 hardwood -- I've read that it's ok but that you just have to take it slow.
Pick up an old Unisaw. This is nice in that I get a very powerful saw with a bullet proof design. I'm not a huge fan of the lack of safety features (riving knife) and the lack of a warranty. I've found a few but all of them needed varying degrees of work (fence, alignment, rust, belts, arbor, bearings). I could probably get into one for ~$1000 but that would definitely require some TLC. As an aside to this option - I found a guy locally who purchased a bunch of old unisaws from a trade school. The machines have 3 phase motors and need to be outfitted with a VFD in order to work with 220 1p. For $1650 he will provide a new blade, table insert, arbor nut and compression washer, sandblast w/ new paint, polished top, sawstop 36" t-glide fence system, lenze VFD and delivery w/ setup. I've seen some pictures of his work and it looks solid but $1650 is pretty steep for a used saw.
General International 50-270KDL M1 -- this is on clearance at a local shop -- $2100 (floor model, assembled a few weeks ago but never run).

I guess I'm just looking for some advice. As someone that is just starting out, the choices are a little daunting.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I was in the same boat as you last year. I bought a Ridgid R4512. The alignment issues are way overblown. However the fence sucks on the R4512. It goes through 8/4 Maple with no problem. I was even doing that with a 40t blade (though it bogs down with a 40t blade-- 24t ripping blade is likely no sweat).

But due to the fence needing an upgrade and a "close call" where I almost absent-mindedly put my hand into the blade, I just got rid of the Ridgid R4512 and got a SawStop PCS. I have zero regrets, even though I accidentally tripped the brake cartridge after only 2 weeks of use!

My advice-- if you're willing to spend $2100 on a new table saw, then a $2300 SawStop PCS is a no-brainer.

Otherwise the Delta 36-725 seems to have a better fence than the R4512, and I'd get that. Sure, if you see a deal on a used cabinet saw for < $1000 and are not ready to spend $2300 for a SawStop PCS...then nab it.

[Andy Giddings]

I was in the same boat as you last year. I bought a Ridgid R4512. The alignment issues are way overblown. However the fence sucks on the R4512. It goes through 8/4 Maple with no problem. I was even doing that with a 40t blade (though it bogs down with a 40t blade-- 24t ripping blade is likely no sweat).

But due to the fence needing an upgrade and a "close call" where I almost absent-mindedly put my hand into the blade, I just got rid of the Ridgid R4512 and got a SawStop PCS. I have zero regrets, even though I accidentally tripped the brake cartridge after only 2 weeks of use!

My advice-- if you're willing to spend $2100 on a new table saw, then a $2300 SawStop PCS is a no-brainer.

Otherwise the Delta 36-725 seems to have a better fence than the R4512, and I'd get that. Sure, if you see a deal on a used cabinet saw for < $1000 and are not ready to spend $2300 for a SawStop PCS...then nab it.

I think you missed this post from the OP "The cheapest SawStop is $3658 CAD and thats for the 1.75HP version w/ 36" rails. If I upgrade to 3HP and 52" rails (comparable to the general), the price is $4417 which is more than double the cost of the General"

[Steve Dublanko]

Thank you all for the feedback you have provided, I really appreciate it. I'm leaning toward the General and will be going to the dealer over the weekend to see what I can do!

[Jim Dwight]

This is a bit different than the other inputs but I used to use a table saw with 60 inch rip capacity and am more happy with a 24 inch rip capacity saw and a track saw. The things you need the large rip capacity for are better done on a track saw. The fact that my shop is small (14x24) is a factor. But even with a large shop, maneuvering full sheets of 3/4 through a table saw is much more difficult than cutting up the same sheet with a track saw. Cut quality and accuracy are equal to better with the track saw. I would rather have a nice portable like the DeWalt or Bosch + a track saw than a good table saw. But a good table saw + a track saw would be even better.

If I was in the market right now, I would probably get the Grizzly hybrid table saw. The fence looks like it would work and I think 1.5-2hp is enough. It's all I've ever had and I can rip 3+ inches in hardwood, I just have to use a rip blade. If I use a 50 tooth general purpose, I have to go real slow and it gets a bit frustrating. Changing blades isn't a huge big deal. Spending a bunch more to get a bigger saw to avoid it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[Greg Magone]

If I could make any suggestion, I would consider a SawStop. The safety feature of the SawStop makes it something worth considering in my opinion.

[John Lankers]

Thank you all for the feedback you have provided, I really appreciate it. I'm leaning toward the General and will be going to the dealer over the weekend to see what I can do!

If I was considering one of the 3 you mentioned I would also jump on the GI: Good fence, real riving knife (not some makeshift doohickey) and a magnetic switch which you will appreciate when after a power outage the saw stays off while fooling around with your hands where they shouldn't be, I know what I'm talking. It is also a well respected saw on the used market if you would ever want to sell it down the road. Try to make an offer, you never know unless you ask.
Concerning the SawStop, a dado cartridge would set you back another couple 100 bucks and if you ever work with kind of dry lumber, pt lumber or non ferrous metal all this fancy technology wouldn't do you any good anyway.