Why Won't My TS Alignment Stay Put?

[Julie Moriarty]

A few years ago I did an upgrade on my Delta contractor's TS. Part of that upgrade was to add L-bracket trunnion adjusters, which are supposed to lock the trunnion in place. After the move, I went through the whole process of tuning up the TS. I checked alignment with a Betterly Uni-Gauge and all was good. But in the little time I've used the TS since the move, I've noticed the slot in the zero clearance insert has widened, but all of it has been to the right, so it's probably not blade wobble. FWIW I always use a Forrest blade stiffener.

When I measured alignment today I found the blade .005" off over a 5" distance. I used a mark on the blade to make sure I was measuring to the same spot on the blade. I don't remember what tolerance I had at the last tune up but I'm sure it was close to zero.

Is this kind of movement normal with the L-brackets supposedly locking everything in place. If I remember correctly, I didn't have this problem when I first installed them, ...IIRC.

[glenn bradley]

The PALs do adjust the rear position of the trunnion. They also somewhat lock it into position. Having PALs, I would assume the front bolts are not tight enough to do their job and are allowing movement there. Don't go too overkill on the torque, non on ewants a stripped bolt hole or a cracked trunnion casting.

[Cary Falk]

I would have been happy with .005" on my contractor saw. Every time you touch the motor or tilt the blade, the blade shifts. It may not go back to the same place. Nature of the beast. I was so happy to get rid of it.

[Peter Kuhlman]

The trunnions on the contractor saws are commonly made from light weight metal that is easily distorted in my experience. My old Crapsman would twist and flex the trunnions every time I tilted the blade. PALS do not really help with this. This caused a major kickback one time as the fence to blade adjustment changed after tilting. I took a piece of MDF to the chest and thought I was going to die - seriously. Within a week I got my cabinet saw and have never had to readjust it in 8 or so years.

[Ted Reischl]

Julie: My Delta contractor TS is about 20 years old now. It has gone through at least 5 moves in that time. Alignment has not changed one bit.

BUT, like you I notice that my zero clearance inserts widen over time. Some of that may be caused by doing bevel changes in a hurry and not using the Wixey gage to set it precisely back to zero. For all I know, it could also be caused by abrasion :::shrug:::

I am going to agree with Glenn Bradley, check the torque on the mounting bolts.

By the way, I use ground blade stiffeners too and Forest blades. Every now and then, if I am pushing the saw a bit too fast in thicker material I will actually SEE the blade do a little flexing and it definitely leaves a mark. It also no doubt widens the kerf in the zero clearance.

BTW, snarky posts like "because it is not a Unisaw" do not help anyone out.

[John K Jordan]

...I am going to agree with Glenn Bradley, check the torque on the mounting bolts.


I agree - I use a torque wrench on most bolts on machinery from saws to tractors. Another thing I believe is very important - lubricate bolt threads at least a tiny bit. Lubricating will NOT let a threaded connection loosen as some people believe.

JKJ

[Julie Moriarty]

Thanks guys. To be honest, I can't say for certain the PALS (thanks, I forgot what they were called) solved the movement problems when I first installed them. I do remember the TS worked much better than it had been after the upgrade but that upgrade included a link belt and new fence so cumulatively it could have left a bigger impression.

I've heard many times a cabinet saw would solve the problems but I stubbornly stuck with the contractors saw because it did a pretty decent job and, probably more importantly, having no experience working with a cabinet saw, I don't know what I'm missing. I had a Stanley jack plane that I bought new in the early 80s and thought for years that is what a jack plane is. Then I bought a LN jack plane several years ago and it was like I died and went to heaven.

The one thing that bothers me the most is all the debris that gets kicked up on top of the table. I set the fence so it's skewed out a fraction so only the front of the blade is doing the cutting, but it never seems to make much of a difference. I'm now waging a war against dust and debris in the garage because it's so hard to clean with all the other junk in there. I'm attacking source that isn't being picked up by the dust collector and the TS is a major problem, even more than the router table.

There is some consolation in knowing I'll never get the results I want out of my current TS. At least I'll know when to quit trying. In the meantime I'll make do with what I have until I can find a way to bring a cabinet saw into the picture.

Thanks again!

[Matt Day]

The only way to solve top of the table dust and chips is with above the table dust collection.

[Dave Anthony]

I had a Delta contractor's saw w/PALs for many years and never had any problems w/alignment, though I rarely moved the saw or tilted the blade. The bolts do need to be torqued down properly. I may have a partial solution to the dust problem. I built a plywood box with a dust port to cover the base of the saw, and used a Sharkguard splitter w/top of the table dust collection. Anyhow, I sold the saw several years ago, but the guy didn't want the splitter w/overhead dust collection (he had his own setup). It's just sitting in my garage, you're welcome to it if you like, just PM me.

[Art Mann]

I don't know about Delta but I adjusted my Ridgid 3650 the day I bought it and it was just as accurate 10 years later when I sold it. It is not true that you have to have a cabinet saw for it to stay in adjustment for any length of time. There are 10's of thousands of contractor saw owners who will testify to this. My first table saw lasted nearly 30 years with one tune up as afar as I can remember. I have a suspicion that it is not a weakness of the saw that is causing your problem. I am not familiar with L-bracket trunion adjusters. Is it the same as PALs? Maybe that modification is giving you problems. Maybe your fasteners are just not tight enough.

[Chris Padilla]

Julie,

You did move to a new location and you did move so that combo may have knocked things out of whack a bit.

As to why it won't stay put, I can only point to my own Grizzly cabinet saw. When adjusting the cast iron top to be perfectly parallel to the blade, you loosen the 4 bolts holding the top to the saw body and bump it around. OFTEN, the washers there will have deformed/marred/dented/etc. just slightly and thus when you tighten again, they can move back to their original spot and throw things off. Sometime the washers need changed or just moved around a bit so you can get a fresh bite into a different location. This may or may not apply to your situation but it can happen.

[Ted Reischl]

The one thing that bothers me the most is all the debris that gets kicked up on top of the table. I set the fence so it's skewed out a fraction so only the front of the blade is doing the cutting, but it never seems to make much of a difference.

There is some consolation in knowing I'll never get the results I want out of my current TS. At least I'll know when to quit trying. In the meantime I'll make do with what I have until I can find a way to bring a cabinet saw into the picture.

Thanks again!

Setting the fence so it is skewed out a fraction? So ONLY the front of the blade is doing the cutting?

I saw that "idea" years ago in one of the magazines, posited by some "expert". What utter nonsense. If you skew the fence you are guaranteeing the back of the blade is going to do some cutting. Here is why:

359991

The red indicates the blade, notice that the back left edge of the blade is cutting, on the up motion no less. This is one of the reasons you are getting a lot of debris on the table and in the air.

In reality, even when the blade is perfectly parallel to the fence you are liable to do some cutting on that back edge. That is because stresses can be relieved that will either bow the part that is against the fence, or the cutoff piece can bow as it is being cut for the same reason. But to set it up to guarantee that it will cut on the back side everytime? Nah. Don't do it.

Also, there are lots of "theories" about how much of the blade should protrude above the surface of the work. Some say it must just barely break through. Others claim it must be the height of the tooth. Others will swear it must be set to the depth of the gullet. Myself? I am pretty much a half a tooth guy. No real reason other than it seems to work best for me.

What you CAN do to stop that stuff from launching into the air is to put a floating "box" with a dust hose attachment above the blade. I tried an overarm one, it was a pain in the butt. So I took it off and made a mount that hooked to the ceiling. But it still seemed to be a pain, it worked, but it seemed like I spent more time setting it up than cutting. I do lots of different cuts on the TS, if I were doing mostly sheet work it would be great for that. I have not set it up in my new shop and probably won't.

About not getting the results you want: Don't buy into the idea that the more you spend the better a craftsperson you will be. It is pure and simple baloney. I have operated contractor and cabinet saws. Both do a good job. The biggest problem I see with contractor saws is that the owners think they are running a 5 hp 12 inch saw, they feed way too fast. They use a "combination" blade, which doesn't really do either job that well. I know, I used to do that. I finally got it through my thick skull, use the TS for ripping with a rip blade in it. I do not crosscut anything on the TS anymore, that is because I quit listening to all the old curmudgeons who bloviate endlessly about how a radial arm saw is worthless, dangerous, inaccurate, blah, blah, blah. Sort of the old adage, a poor craftsman blames his tools. I have been running a RAS for about 15 years now, it cuts deadly accurate. Yup, I have to tune it up now and then, about every six months or so.

Alright, this old curmudgeon is done bloviating for a while!

[Steve Reich]

Julie:

I put PALS on my Powermatic Artisan 63 (a 1980s model contractor saw that I bought on craigslist). They dramatically improved the alignment, but as others have said, they don't help with blade tilting. After a new disaster, I have resolved never to tilt the blade. For the few times that I need to make bevel rips, I make a sled. I find it a safer way to make that cut anyway.

As for the over the blade dust, check out the Shark Guard blade guard with an over the blade dust port. I just bought one for the PM, and it's great. I'll probably post a review of it in the next couple of weeks. Lee Styron is a gem to work with as well; he will custom make it to fit your saw. My TS no longer sprays dust all over the shop.

[Ted Reischl]

Hi Steve, that is a nice looking over the blade dust grabber. My set up was sort of the same, minus the splitter. My only problem was that I do a lot of different types of work and different thicknesses. One of the worst is cutting boxes in half. The other problem is cutting thin strips. I don't think anyone is ever going to really solve the problem.

What happened with the bevel rip anyhow? Disaster does not sound good. . . . .

[Jim Falsetti]

Julie, during your alignment process, did you check the tie-bars to be sure they are parallel? I believe Delta published a procedure for this step - PM me if you can't find it. When I aligned my Delta Contractor saw, I went through the parallel tie-bar procedure, installed the PALS, new pulleys and the linkbelt. As others have noted, I avoid tilting the blade, just in case it doesn't come back properly aligned.

[Steve Reich]

Ted,

As nice as the Shark Guard is, you can't use it for rips narrower than about 1 inch, although I haven't yet tried it with my thin rip jig. The new Shark Guard features an adjustable riving knife, so you can adjust for multiple thicknesses of stock. I'll try to get a review up with pictures within the next couple of weeks. Lee is a really fine guy to work with.

As for my bevel rip . . . . Well, it cut fine but when I put the blade back to 90 and reinserted my zci, the slot wasn't even close to the blade. The blade had drifted at least an 1/8 of inch. That's when I discovered that the PALS weren't working right . . . long story short, I took the whole saw apart, and came near close to putting up for sale on Craigslist for parts as I didn't think I could get it back together. I finally did, which involved tapping new screw holes for the L brackets. But at the end of the day (it was more like 2 weeks), the saw is more aligned and consistent than it ever was. The bevel cutting sleds work really well, and I feel much safer using them anyway. Ian Kirby in The Accurate Table Saw explains advises to never tilt a contractor saw and recommends bevel cutting sleds.

[Dick Brown]

I HAVE A CABINET SAW!! There, maybe that makes me a Snob Woodworker. The real reason I have a cabinet saw is because I wanted one. If a cabinet saw will make you a master woodworker, I must have missed that page in the instruction manual. I do enjoy not having the motor sticking out the back, stability, easier lower end dust collection, etc. I see no reason a well tuned contractor saw shouldn't be capable of every bit as nice of work as a cabinet saw with a few limitations such as VERY heavy ripping, large sheet goods, etc.
Back to the original question of the post though. I refurbish a few table saws as a hobby (and because I want to!) and have seen saws that the arbor was moving a bit in and out in the bearings or the bearings moved in the housings.. As there are several different methods by different brands of keeping the arbor and bearings from moving, and I am not familiar with Julie's saw, all I can say is, check the end play in your arbor. If it moves, it will sure widen the blade slot in your ZCI.

[andy bessette]

Didn't realize I was stepping on so many hobbyist toes by pointing out that the contractors saw will never be a cabinet saw. :) Though a guy can do a lot of work with one.

My deleted post also pointed out that, besides 2 Unisaws (one with carbide rip blade, the other with carbide combination), I have a contractors saw. This is kept setup with a 1/2" carbide dado and is never tilted. The Unisaw is not that special--just scads better than the contractors saw, which was designed as a "lightweight" machine to carry to the job site, hence "contractors saw".

Photos show how the contractors saw has been built onto one Unisaw, so the Beismeyer fence serves both; this is setup on a mobile base. The other Unisaw has a 3-1/2 hp Stanley router built into an old, cast iron, table saw top, so the Unifence can be used for both.

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/yo-andrew/shop-2_zpsn3iobisa.jpg
http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/yo-andrew/shop-1_zpswjliawky.jpg

[Ted Reischl]

So, Ian Kirby says one should NEVER tilt the arbor on a contractor saw. Well, if Kirby says it, it must be so! Strange, I tilt mine all the time. . . and it comes right back to where it was. I know this because I use a Wixey TS gage to position my fence. Before tilting I set it to say 2 inches and make a cut. Presto, I have a 2 inch wide board. I tilt the saw and do a 45 bevel cut. Roll it back to zero and set it with the little Wixey angle gage. Set the fence to 2 inches and whaddya know? The board is exactly 2 inches wide!

Ian Kirby.... the guy who told the world that he hand planed his 8 foot long bench to flatness within a couple of thousandths. Kirby, the guy who says a craftsman should be able to stand a board on edge and plane it with no clamps. Ok, Ian, if you say so.

Here is my point, Ian is obviously a great craftsman, no doubt about it. But being a craftsman does not make him an expert about everything he chooses to discuss. Ian obviously had a problem with a Delta CS, so in his ignorance he believes they must all be the same. Does Ian have a degree in mechanical engineering? Did he design machinery or tooling? Not to my knowledge.

It seems this issue of tilting problems has been discussed here before. Apparently some rods need to be aligned, bolts tightened, etc. Which is probably why mine has never had this problem. When I bought the saw new in '92 I quickly discovered the top was dished about 1/32. Made for lousy tenons when using a tenoning jig. Delta replaced the top. I had to take the whole thing apart so I made sure everything was properly tightened while I was at it.

My neighbor was cussing out his TS last year. Said it would not cut accurate, was a piece of junk, blah, blah, blah. I was working in my shop building a face frame out of construction pine for some shop cabinets when he wandered in. We were talking a bit and he was watching me work. All of a sudden he stopped me and said "What are you doing?". Cutting a board to final width. "I thought you already did that!"

Long story short, what he had been doing was flattening a board, then jointing one edge. Then on to his TS to cut a piece to width. Just like they tell you in all sorts of articles written by "experts". Those experts must work with some pretty primo wood lemme tell ya. Wood that would never bow when it was being cut to width. Or maybe it is scared to bow because it is being cut on a cabinet saw! Seems his saw has been working just fine since that day.

When I started wood working I totally believed every word those guys who wrote articles said. They had to be right, they were writing articles for national magazines! Uh huh, lemme tell ya something about magazines....every month they have to figure out how to fill up X number of pages with articles. They want to pay as little as they possibly can to do that, cuts into profits yanno. Sure there is lots of good information in those magazines. But out of all the magazines the two that I found were the most help were the WoodSmith and Shopnotes publications. Strange, they had no advertising and they do not have self styled "experts" writing articles.

[Julie Moriarty]

I think it's safe to say we all work our tools differently and do so because that's what works for us. I've owned my Delta TS for about 30 years and have used it extensively during that time and have evolved in how I use it to the point I'm comfortable with that. I use it almost exclusively to rip boards and cut plywood. I almost never use it for crosscuts. I stopped cutting bevels long ago because it threw everything out of whack.

I've also become comfortable using Grr-rippers when ripping lumber or cutting smaller pieces of plywood. I like how it takes both sides all the way through the cut. And that means I can't have over blade dust collection. I'm okay with that. I fashioned up an over blade hood years ago and quickly discarded it. Having control of the feed through the blade is more important to me.

Ted, your sketch says it all, IF the cut ends stay perfectly parallel with one another after they leave the blade. Admittedly, I do not strive for the skewed method but if the fence is a fraction off parallel in that direction, I don't fret it. But one time I did experiment with skewing the fence and it did seem to help a bit with reducing cutting on the back side. I guess it's one of those YMMV things.

Thank you all, again, for the feedback. I appreciate the input because it makes me think and that is followed up by doing something rather than succumbing to frustration or complacency.

[fRED mCnEILL]

When I first started woodworking I bought a King(Chinese made) contractor saw. It needed alignement often.My 80 y.o. neighbor told me had a General cabinet saw for 40 years,moved it 3 times and never needed adjustment.So I found one at auction and bought it 20 years ago.Still haven't needed to adjust it.

[Steve Reich]

Ted

I've been doing this for about 4 years, and so, like you once, did I consult just about every source I can for information and learning. One of the salesmen at the local Ace Hardware was their woodworking expert, and I struck up a pretty good rapport with him. I'd tell him what I read in FWW or some other magazine, and he'd shake his head and laugh and tell me not to believe everything I read in those places.

I'm coming to learn that. Woodworking reminds me a lot of golf. There's always internet salesmen and magazines waiting to sell you the most expensive piece of equipment that will solve all of your problems. Slice the ball all the time, here's a $400 driver guaranteed to fix that. Can't measure a perfect 90 degree angle, here's the perfect new measuring tool for $125. I always tell friends, save the $400 on the new driver, invest in lessons, and you'll be a much better golfer.

The Kirby advice was welcome at the time when I almost lost my TS last year. And making bevel sleds helps me make those cuts and keeps me confident that my saw is staying aligned. But I agree that these "experts" should be approached with skepticism, and you are wise to remind us that they are in business to sell magazines and to do that, they try to propose solutions to problems that we never knew we had.

[Ted Reischl]

Steve, what always sticks in my mind is that we are working with wood, WOOD! My career started in machine shops, so when I started woodworking, hey, I had it all figured out, just be precise...uh huh, sure. Nowadays it is not about being precise, as in, the board MUST measure exactly 2.5 inches wide. It is more about all the boards that go with that board must be the same. But, like you I see that trend in woodworking tools, you need to have a cnc machined aluminum square to check your work. I just wonder, how did those guys Newport build those gorgeous pieces without all that ultra precision equipment and tools?

The marketing folks have gotten out of hand. Watch some TV at night and find out that I need eyedrops for dry eyes, need some stuff to find bad germs hanging out in my colon, ad nauseam. Glad we have a DVR, I am way happier with all my problems, save a ton of money on pills that I can spend on fun stuff, like TOOLS!