High School Needing a Laser Engraver - Need Advice from Experts

[Barton Scott]

Hello,

I teach high school engineering in a community of poverty in Fort Worth, TX. We recently received a donation of $25,000 to purchase a Laser engraver.

I am very frustrated at the process of purchasing these machines. No prices are listed and we are quoted "list prices" for Epilog, TroTect and Full Spectrum machines.

The profit markup on these machines and their consumables is substantial. It seems this industry has a "secret" pricing model that allows dealers to make alot more money than when buying a car.

I have to be a good steward of these funds and I would appreciate any help on pointing me resources on what a "fair" price is to pay for an Epilog Fusion M2 (90 watt), TroTec Speedy 400 (80 watt) or a Full Spectrum 150 watt machine.

This is my first experience in the Laser engraving world and it really seems the manufacturers have tipped the playing field toward the "dealers" and away from "consumers" by regulating and controlling advertising and pricing.

Thanks in advance for the help and advice.

[John Heavill]

Hi Barton,
Check both your 'private messages' and 'email'.
Good Luck.
John H.

[Keith Downing]

Hello,

I teach high school engineering in a community of poverty in Fort Worth, TX. We recently received a donation of $25,000 to purchase a Laser engraver.

I am very frustrated at the process of purchasing these machines. No prices are listed and we are quoted "list prices" for Epilog, TroTect and Full Spectrum machines.

The profit markup on these machines and their consumables is substantial. It seems this industry has a "secret" pricing model that allows dealers to make alot more money than when buying a car.

I have to be a good steward of these funds and I would appreciate any help on pointing me resources on what a "fair" price is to pay for an Epilog Fusion M2 (90 watt), TroTec Speedy 400 (80 watt) or a Full Spectrum 150 watt machine.

This is my first experience in the Laser engraving world and it really seems the manufacturers have tipped the playing field toward the "dealers" and away from "consumers" by regulating and controlling advertising and pricing.

Thanks in advance for the help and advice.

Hey Barton, what part of Ft Worth are you in (just curious)?

As per your questions, what do you see as your main use for the laser? I'm mainly asking because the 80 and 90 watt US made machines are very high end, more like production shop level. I wonder if you couldn't get the same level of teaching experience for the kids with a significantly smaller machine? Maybe something more "medium" sized? And then you would have some money left for a few years worth of supplies and teaching materials.

I'm afraid I can't quote you an exact price of what any of those machines should cost, but I do have some contacts at Trotec, Epilog, and ULS from the NBM show that they just had there in Dallas if you're having problems getting through to anyone. Also, I don't know how easy it is go qualify, or if they all even still offer them, but I know some of the companies used to have a small discount for non-profits.

[Kev Williams]

As for laser dealers getting more money per laser than car dealers per car, there's a simple reason for that: Cars sell by the millions, laser engravers sell by the hundreds. You can't realistically expect the same commission-to-selling price ratio between the two.

That said, like Keith I'm curious as to your expectations. I've done very well the past 15 years with a 25 watt, a 35 watt and 40 watt lasers. I have an 80 watt Chinese laser, and while the extra power is nice when cutting, I mostly engrave with the thing, at 30% or less power settings. 80 watts will cut much faster than 40 watts, but is that speed worth the extra money?-- I'm just glad my 80 watt machine was cheap. I have never been able to afford more than 40 watts worth of RF laser, an 80w machine is roughly double the price of a 40w machine...

My advice, FWIW-- if you're going to engrave more than 30% of the time, stay away from any DC glass tube laser, simply because their engraving speed is excruciatingly slow. I put up with my Triumph's slow speed simply because I have it tuned up to where the quality of engraving is top-notch, and since I have 2 additional RF lasers, the speed issue isn't such a big deal. If your plans don't include a second machine soon, get an RF (western) machine, not a DC (Chinese) glass machine...

If I had $25k to spend on a laser, I would do my best to locate a used Gravograph, Trotec, ULS or Epilog (my choices, in that order) in a 40 to 60 watt model, up to 4 or 5 years old. You should be able to nab one of these for around $15k. Insure it's in working order, buy it, then stick the other $10k in a bank or CU savings account ONLY to be used for maintenance and repairs. You'll have a great laser, and probably won't burn thru the $10 for 8 or 10 years...

[Matt McCoy]

Hey Barton,

I live in Fort Worth and have a shop in Dallas. I would be happy to visit here or there to discuss.

[Bill George]

When I was teaching and they had allotted money for a purchase there was no give back or hold for future. If you did not use the money another department got it! So I would get a good used machine and one with US service and parts. Check with the dealers near you they might have a demo or good used trade in. Unless you are going into production I would think a 30-50 watt machine would be all you need to teach with.

[Mike Null]

Why do you need a Trotec 400? A Speedy 300 should do the job and save a good bit of money.

[John Lifer]

I'd even go with trying to find a couple of Epilog minis. I'd bet you might could get two for close to the 25k. For sure one new and one used. For high school. I can't​ imagine needing a m2. Why fiber? Your teaching, not manufacturing.... Keep it simple!

[Keith Outten]

Purchase a Trotec Speedy 300 80 watt. I doubt you have the time to spend working on an old machine to keep it running. I know how limited teachers time can be given their regular workload. Don't forget to ask for the SawMill Creek discount.

Remember that most plastics suppliers will not sell materials to schools however Johnson Plastics is a good source for engravers plastics and they don't discriminate. I bought all my engraving plastics from Johnson Plastics when I ran the sign shop at Christopher Newport University and I still use them today.

If you search your local business community you should be able to find pickup truck loads of free material. Most companies would prefer to give their excess material or scraps to their local high school than throw them away. Some will be happy to sponsor a project every now and then providing free material.
.

[Matt McCoy]

Trotec is right next door, in Arlington. They're down the street from The Ballpark.

[Barton Scott]

Thanks for the tips and advice. As far as purchasing "used" equipment that is strictly prohibited through the grant. We have to purchase new equipment with a solid warranty. The wattage I really and not sure what I need. I want to be able to cut through .5 inch piece of wood or do 3D engraving. We also want to be able to engrave aluminum and stainless steel.

TroTec is certainly a machine I like, but the price tag is very expensive. The best deal I have received so far is a Full Spectrum 150 watt machine with a Rotary Attachment, two year warranty and onsite training for $24,000. SMU and The Hockaday School in Dallas both have this same machine and have given me solid references.

I would prefer an Epilog M2 because it is comparable in the cutting area. The problem I have is the "educational" vendors are just quoting "list prices" to us and coming from the business world I would never pay "list price" for anything (house, car, furniture, etc..). I have to be a good steward of the funds and that means asking for the best price possible. I certainly do not expect an equipment manufacturer to not make a profit but when you pay "list price" that is not a "win-win" for both parties.

In this case kids of poverty will be losing funds that could be used for something else to pad the margins and commissions of a sales rep.

I certainly appreciate the tip on free material! We will take all the wooden, plastic we can use.

We are not purchasing fiber - CO2 systems. I am curious about the "air assist" feature on Epilog. The Full Spectrum machine does not offer this. I do not quite understand what "air assist" means and how does that compare to a 150 watt machine without "air assist".

Our school is in the Stop 6 part of Fort Worth which is high poverty. Matt McCoy would love to have someone with expertise help advise us on the appropriate machine. One thing I really like about Epilog is the curriculum that goes along with it to make projects.

The end goal is to actually make products we can sell to the community. Laser Engraved aluminum or stainless steel mugs. Wooden signs, Engraved Glass Awards backlit by an LED strip, Engraved Drinking Glasses, Cork Coaster Holders. The program is an entrepeneurship based approach to teach kids design, engineering but also combine it with marketing and running an actual business.

I hope this helps explain what we are trying to accomplish. If you have a contact with Epilog or TroTect where we can purchase direct so we can get a better deal that would be great. Right now we are going through Resellers.

[Keith Downing]

TroTec is certainly a machine I like, but the price tag is very expensive. The best deal I have received so far is a Full Spectrum 150 watt machine with a Rotary Attachment, two year warranty and onsite training for $24,000. SMU and The Hockaday School in Dallas both have this same machine and have given me solid references.

I would NEVER invest over $20,000 in a Full Spectrum machine. Sorry, that might be blunt, but they are not selling the same quality product the other companies you mentioned are. You're comparing apples to oranges.

I understand not being able to even consider used machines really limits your options, but please either buy a true US machine (such as Trotec, Epilog, or ULS), or get a Chinese made machine from someone like Rabbit Laser, Boss Laser or Full Spectrum for well under $10,000.

Also, I'm not really able to tell from your posts if you have had any experience at all using lasers. But some of the things you're mentioning are going to take some skill (or a LOT of practice) to accomplish before you will be putting out results that are marketable. Especially if you're trying to get the kids involved in the designing of projects, running the laser, and finishing the work.

Safety would also be a MAJOR concern for me if you're going to be working with Acrylic, and/or a high wattage machine (although you can certainly burn the place down with a low wattage machine as well).

Then you will also need a good amount of supplies to get started if you're getting into so many different things all at once: marking cups or aluminum (Cermark plus obviously the cups, brushes, denatured alcohol), cutting acrylic (different types of acrylic and cleaners if you're selling), different types and thicknesses of wood, LED lights and controllers, etc etc. I'd highly recommend you spend some time with someone who can show you how this stuff is done. Matt McCoy would be a good starting point!

Anyways, I wish you the best of luck. And my final advice would be to take your time with this decision and do your homework. Just the fact you are considering throwing $25k at a Full Spectrum laser because it is a 150 watt machine tells me you don't fully understand all the variables yet. For instance, other than cutting thicker wood, you may actually be able to do LESS with that machine than a smaller machine as they often won't fire under 10-15% power. Hope you don't take that personally, I would just hate to see you spend that type of money on a machine like that when it doesn't at all fit your needs IHMO, especially with such a generous grant to work with.

[Barton Scott]

Keith thanks for the feedback. I am a novice on Laser Engraving. The Full Spectrum is actually only a $10,000 machine. The price includes a rotary attachment, cooling system, a fume collection system ($4500) onsite training for several days and warranty and supplies.

I was told I needed that high of wattage to be able to engrave stainless steel or aluminum.

I really do not care about the wattage but the work area of the Full Spectrum (40 X 24) is very good.

I will reach out to Matt McCoy as well. The goal is to have a machine that is easy to maintain, reliable and can make the projects we need quickly and with high quality.

Projects we would love to do:

1. Engraving iPhone Cases
2. Rotary Projects (Engraving Cups, Glasses)
3. Marking of Stainless Steel or Aluminum Water Bottles, Cups, Etc..
4. 3D Engraving of Wood
5. Acrylic Signs and Awards

That is why I joined this group to get advice before purchasing a machine. My initial problem though is determining what a reasonable price to pay is for a machine and which machine to use.

[Keith Downing]

Keith thanks for the feedback. I am a novice on Laser Engraving. The Full Spectrum is actually only a $10,000 machine. The price includes a rotary attachment, cooling system, a fume collection system ($4500) onsite training for several days and warranty and supplies.


Ok, that makes me feel a little bit better that the machine is only $10k. LOL. I was worried someone was getting a huge "referral fee" for sending them your business.

The fume extraction system is going to be an issue with any brand laser if venting outside isn't an option. You might find out if there's any way that is a possibility, simply using a blower.

I think if you can spend some time with the american made machines you will understand the extreme difference in build quality between them and some of the Chinese machines. And that's coming from someone who owns and likes their Chinese machine.

You'll also need to figure out your air assist, as you hinted. Most of the US machines come air cooled with a small air pump built in, as that's all they need. The Chinese machines typically need an external air pump (at minimum) and many of us, myself included, have a large external air compressor feeding the machine air. Others can weigh in on this as well, but I think if you're going with a Chinese machine over 60 watts you'll probably want an air compressor.

As for the projects, I would try to focus on small (easily executable) projects that yield attractive results. Especially ones that aren't expensive to scrap. The iphone cases, cups and glasses, and acrylic signs are neat, but the overhead is higher, and every time someone makes a mistake, you're out money. And it will happen. Small wooden decorations (think holiday stuff as well), earings, puzzles, coasters (these could be wood, cork, or even something like slate) and such cost very little if you make a mistake.

[Bert Kemp]

Your not going to engrave Stainless or Aluminum with a co2 laser and stay away from full spectrum. Their cheap Chinese imports made with low grade materials. You can mark Stainless or Alum with cermark. 150 watts will be hard to dial down to engrave wood. All the materials you mentioned with the exception of the steel and alum will engrave and cut with an 80 watt laser. 1/2 wood cutting will be slow but can be done.
please do some more research on lasers and what their capabilities are.
For engraving wood, acrylic, leather, cork, glass. slate, and most materials an 80 watt co2 is pretty much as high as you want to go. If your going to be mostly cutting wood then a higher wattage would be OK

Keith thanks for the feedback. I am a novice on Laser Engraving. The Full Spectrum is actually only a $10,000 machine. The price includes a rotary attachment, cooling system, a fume collection system ($4500) onsite training for several days and warranty and supplies.

I was told I needed that high of wattage to be able to engrave stainless steel or aluminum.

I really do not care about the wattage but the work area of the Full Spectrum (40 X 24) is very good.

I will reach out to Matt McCoy as well. The goal is to have a machine that is easy to maintain, reliable and can make the projects we need quickly and with high quality.

Projects we would love to do:

1. Engraving iPhone Cases
2. Rotary Projects (Engraving Cups, Glasses)
3. Marking of Stainless Steel or Aluminum Water Bottles, Cups, Etc..
4. 3D Engraving of Wood
5. Acrylic Signs and Awards

That is why I joined this group to get advice before purchasing a machine. My initial problem though is determining what a reasonable price to pay is for a machine and which machine to use.

[Bill George]

When I was teaching at our community college we could get demo equipment at discount prices With A Warranty. Manufactures donated to us through their local dealers. You have so far not reached the right people, sounds like the Resellers still want the normal mark up! I would stay with either US based or Trotec.

[Barton Scott]

Thank You to everyone for the replies. Seems like from what I am learning I have two competing problem. First is the ability to engrave and cut up to 1/2 inch piece of wood which requires higher wattage machine and the other is the engraving and marking of softer materials.

I am leaning towards Epilog or TroTec. I have to get the Rotary attachment, exhaust fan, 2 year service, training and Cermark supplies as well as the machine and stay under $25,000.

Can anyone give me a recommendation on a specific model that meet these requirements.

I prefer the Epilog M2 series because I understand it that can be upgraded to fiber later on which I like. We may eventually get to a point where we want to cut aluminum and brass and engrave metal vs. marking but that is 2-3 years away.

I would like to know the pros and cons of 3D engraving into wood. Our main projects initially will be making engraved water bottles to sell to the Football teams.

Thanks to everyone for the help. Joining this forum and hearing from experts has made a huge difference.

[Scott Shepherd]

You aren't going to be able to cut 1/2" thick wood with anything for $25,000. Can you force it to happen? Sure, is it something that makes sense to do? No. It's the wrong tool for the job and depending on the type of wood, you might never get through it, or if you do, it'll be a pile of charred mess when you are done with it.

3D engraving into wood is an art and it's VERY slow.

In my opinion, your expectations are way off on what you think a laser can do, and do at a reasonable rate.

I also think your expectation of getting a Fusion M2, or a Trotec with the exhaust and a rotary for under $25,000 is off too.

To get to that price point, with all the options included, you need to step down on models quite a bit.

[Barton Scott]

Scott - I see by your profile you own a ShopBot. We are also purchasing a ShopBot CNC. We are getting the 48in X 96 as well. How can I use the two machines together to perhaps save me some $$ and still meet my requirements.

The 3D engraving on wood is a gotta have as well as the rotary attachment.

I would like to have something that is capable of making a US seal like the link below:

https://www.epiloglaser.com/assets/img/how-works/photos/eagle-3d.jpg

We are also looking a purchasing a Roland Printer to create T-Shirts, Posters, Banners, etc...

[Keith Downing]

You aren't going to be able to cut 1/2" thick wood with anything for $25,000. Can you force it to happen? Sure, is it something that makes sense to do? No. It's the wrong tool for the job and depending on the type of wood, you might never get through it, or if you do, it'll be a pile of charred mess when you are done with it.

3D engraving into wood is an art and it's VERY slow.

Scott is correct on these two points, BUT I personally don't think it's as big of a deal as you think.

Need something to be 1/2" thick? Make it out of two pieces. We do these layered glue ups on a regular basis and never have a problem.

Or, cut a template on the laser in 1/4" and use a router or saw to cut the final piece. If you're trying to cut wood thicker than 1/4" it should really be done on a saw or with a router anyways. Unless you're buying an industrial machine with just that one purpose (which you aren't in this case).

But really, I work with my laser on a daily basis and I've pretty much NEVER said: "I wish it had more power".

Now speed, that is a different story. I definitely wish I had the speed of the American made machines; which are about 2 to 3 times faster than the Chinese machines for engraving (rastering) projects.

[Kev Williams]

This is just from my 'visual experiences' on these pages in few years I've been with the Creek--- I've seen many '3D' engravings done by laser, but (just my opinion) the results pretty much land in the 'ok' category. Including my own ;)

The one standout 3D engraving I've seen on these pages was done with a 580 watt Kern, scroll down to post #4: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?244876-how-to-make-relief-or-3d-engraving-by-co2-laser-machine&highlight=wood+engraving%3B+kern

While you don't NEED a 580w Kern to do this engraving, you'll likely need something more than $25k will get you. :(

[Keith Downing]

Another thing you haven't mentioned at all, is what type of space will you have for all this?

If it will be a workshop type space you may be able to vent your exhaust outside; which as I previously mentioned will save you thousands right off the bat. Also, you might consider buying a smaller laser and also adding a CNC router in that case. This WOULD cut thicker wood, and do more 3-d style cutting; and would also give you the ability for two students to be running projects at the same time. That'd be a big plus in my book.

Of course you could also supplement with a table saw or band saw if that was easier. Although these days the liability might be too much for a school district to accept. Which is sad.

Also, to complete finished products you'll need things like paint, wood stain, sand paper, Denatured Alcohol, drills, etc. So having an area with proper ventilation and where you don't have to worry about things like overspray, or a blower or compressor being too loud would be a big plus.

If you do absolutely have to work in a traditional classroom, then I would suggest going with a much smaller, American made machine. Focus on the speed with which you can do small projects, and things like the cups and bottles, and let the big wood working projects go. You won't be able to sand/finish/paint/dry them properly in a classroom anyways. Also, you'll be paying for filters on the fume extractor if you go that route and doing wood non-stop could cause you some problems there as well.

[Michael Hunter]

Have a good think about venting before you get much further with the laser idea.

If you can vent unfiltered exhaust to the open air, then the cost is low - just a fan and some piping.
Be aware though that the smell from acrylic is extremely unpleasant/irritating after a few minutes (it starts off sweet and nice!) and the smoke/particles from wood are definitely not good for anyone's health. Lasering leather will disgust everyone within a mile downwind unless you can get the fumes up and away.

If you need a filter, you will find that a good one is going to eat up a big proportion of your budget.
Home-made filters are possible and cheap-ish (instructions in this forum somewhere), but in a school environment how will you test it so that you can say what it does (and doesn't) catch?

[Barton Scott]

We have a Makers Space dedicated for the area. Not a normal classroom. We have access to outdoor ventilation.

We are purchasing a CNC machine as well that I have used for the past 2 years.

We are looking at purchasing Jet Band Saw, Lathe, Table Saw, Router and Scroll Saw as well as drills..

The Laser Engraver we have $25,000 allocated about $5,000 for Woodshop Tools. We are purchasing a ShopBot CNC machine as well that will cut 1/2 inch wood with ease as well as Aluminum.

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott - I see by your profile you own a ShopBot. We are also purchasing a ShopBot CNC. We are getting the 48in X 96 as well. How can I use the two machines together to perhaps save me some $$ and still meet my requirements.

The 3D engraving on wood is a gotta have as well as the rotary attachment.

I would like to have something that is capable of making a US seal like the link below:

https://www.epiloglaser.com/assets/img/how-works/photos/eagle-3d.jpg

We are also looking a purchasing a Roland Printer to create T-Shirts, Posters, Banners, etc...

The problem with 3D is that it looks amazing, but it's not practical to run. I don't know what your planning to do, you have a lot of requirements for all that equipment, but just so you know, you can't just take any image or any black/white image and make it look like that eagle sample on Epilog's site. Someone probably spent 5-8 hours making that file so that it'll look great in 3D. It's not like you can go to Google and download any vector or bitmap and hit go and an amazing 3D engraving is going to pop out the machine. It just doesn't work like that. There's a reason every manufacturers shows you 3D work that's already been done instead of doing 3D samples while you wait. Because it's very slow and the file prep is huge.

Not saying you can't do it, but just setting the expectations correctly on that.

We had a guy come in years ago, telling me he wanted 1/2" thick wood laser cut. I told him it wouldn't work, and he insisted I do it. It was various types of woods. I let him watch it run and when it was done, he took his stuff and I never saw or heard from him again. 1/2" thick with most any woods, in solid form is going to be a chore. You can fight through a couple pieces, but it's not something you want to do every day with 80W lasers. A ShopBot is a much better tool for that and routers and lasers work very well together.

It sounds to me like you already have a plan on what you are trying to make and you're trying to make the laser fit the bill, when it might or might not be the best fit. Without knowing exactly what you are trying to make, we're all just giving general advice.

[Keith Downing]

We have a Makers Space dedicated for the area. Not a normal classroom. We have access to outdoor ventilation.

We are purchasing a CNC machine as well that I have used for the past 2 years.

We are looking at purchasing Jet Band Saw, Lathe, Table Saw, Router and Scroll Saw as well as drills..

The Laser Engraver we have $25,000 allocated about $5,000 for Woodshop Tools. We are purchasing a ShopBot CNC machine as well that will cut 1/2 inch wood with ease as well as Aluminum.

This will make everything much easier IMO. I would start by talking with someone at the school to see if you can run some inexpensive aluminum exhaust tubing up to the roof. If so, I'd get a good blower, and forget about it. If not, it'd be a tough call between venting outside (through a door or window) or using a fume extractor with all the extra costs and hassles that come with that. This is a call only you (or your school) can really make since we don't know your layout and where students will or won't be walking (and breathing).

Also, if you will have all the other tools and the CNC, I would feel confident saying you could complete most projects with only a 45-60 watt US made laser. Again, the speed and durability is what you really need here, and what you're paying for.

Finally, I would take some time to try to get to know the brand reps in your area. I know you may have already started off on the wrong foot with them based on the pricing they offered. But you can often get them down a little. You can mention "show pricing" from the NBM show they just had in Dallas, or ask if they have a non-profit discount, or I think sawmill creek even has some type of discounted pricing with one of the brands (right?). But try to work with them and let them know specifically what your needs and limitations are. You might just find someone who can help.

[Barton Scott]

Thanks. We do already have the ability to tie into the external exhaust using Aluminum duct work. So that is not a problem at all.

Initially the main projects we will be using the Laser engraver for will be making water bottles, glasses and engraving iPhone cases.

My main issue is the "list pricing" approach for the vendors and the wide range of pricing for these engravers. I have read several positive posts about Rabbit Laser Engravers. I guess they are from China but they upgrade them to US quality.

I am not expecting a huge discount. 10% off of list pricing seems pretty reasonable to me, but I cannot pay retail MSRP and be a good steward of the funds given to us by a philanthropic foundation. The educational reseller seems to get offended when I told them "look guys these are grant funds and I am not willing to pay MSRP pricing...You need to give me a proposal that is a 'win-win' for both parties".

[Scott Shepherd]

My main issue is the "list pricing" approach for the vendors and the wide range of pricing for these engravers. I have read several positive posts about Rabbit Laser Engravers. I guess they are from China but they upgrade them to US quality.

I am not expecting a huge discount. 10% off of list pricing seems pretty reasonable to me, but I cannot pay retail MSRP and be a good steward of the funds given to us by a philanthropic foundation. The educational reseller seems to get offended when I told them "look guys these are grant funds and I am not willing to pay MSRP pricing...You need to give me a proposal that is a 'win-win' for both parties".

Buying a laser is not much different than buying any piece of industrial equipment. MSRP is exactly that. You have to negotiate. Get the pricing, explain to each that they are competing with other manufacturers and once the pricing comes in and you decide what you want, go back to them and tell them to sharpen their pencil one more time.

Having said that, it seems like everyone wants a deal when they are buying something, but everyone wants their max price when THEY are selling something. I've always found that odd, but none the less, it's always out there. Everyone thinks their services and products should bring in $100 per hour, but when they go to someone else's place of business, they want them to make $12.50 per hour :D

[Gary Hair]

Thanks. We do already have the ability to tie into the external exhaust using Aluminum duct work. So that is not a problem at all.

As long as there is something to prevent backflow then this would be a good solution. Having a filter would work really well, right up to the point that the filters are plugged and need changing - you'll not be happy with the cost of replacement filters! Lasering wood will plug them up pretty quickly, no matter what the manufacturers tell you.


Initially the main projects we will be using the Laser engraver for will be making water bottles, glasses and engraving iPhone cases.

For this you could easily get by with a Speedy 100 or a 300, no need for a 400. I'm not sure what the 100 goes for but I can guarantee you that the 400 will be way out of your budget, even with low wattage.


I have read several positive posts about Rabbit Laser Engravers. I guess they are from China but they upgrade them to US quality.

They don't upgrade the machine but they do provide support.


I am not expecting a huge discount. 10% off of list pricing seems pretty reasonable to me, but I cannot pay retail MSRP and be a good steward of the funds given to us by a philanthropic foundation. The educational reseller seems to get offended when I told them "look guys these are grant funds and I am not willing to pay MSRP pricing...You need to give me a proposal that is a 'win-win' for both parties".

I don't think you are talking to the right people yet. Contact Chris Cudmore at Trotec. He will get you the very best deal possible, I guarantee it!

Chris Cudmore
Sales Manager - Texas Region

Trotec Laser Inc.
801 Stadium Drive, Suite 104

Arlington, Texas 76011
United States

Direct Tel: +1 (817) 771-4100
Office Tel: 866-226-8505
Mail: Chris.Cudmore@troteclaser.com

[Bert Kemp]

Rabbit lasers are very good machines and built like a rock. Ray Scott will give you excellent support and service.BUT they will not 3d engrave well Use your cnc router for 3d work. An 80 watt Rabbit will do everything you want to do as far as engraving wood,leather , acrylic, and marking Stainless and Alum with cermark.

[John Lifer]

Barton, You have an invite from Matt to see his shop. I think he has Epilogs, (MATT UPDATE YOUR SIGNATURE :))
Take him up on it!
Epilog has a REALLY good distributor in Dallas area. Trotec is local also. There is a REALLY good Facebook group for Epilog, they WILL let outsiders in, I'm on there and I own a Chinese laser. you can ask anything and get a response.
And probably some good advice too.
I would definitely do MORE research, looks like you want to buy a bunch of stuff, and Yes, make your money count. I too would forget Full Spectrum. Buy Chinese direct or by from Rabbit laser!
DO NOT Buy Chinese thru Amazon nor Ebay! you will be disappointed as there is NO support nor Warranty. I've seen it happen.

[Matt McCoy]

Hey Barton! I just saw your PM. Just quickly: I'm neighbors with a non-profit in Dallas that has the Shopbot you mention, if you want a tour and need help getting set up. I'll reach out to them as well as some educators I know that already operate what you are envisioning. I have a connection to a supplier with experience putting makerspaces in schools and libraries too. I'll give you a shout tomorrow, when I hear back from them.

[Keith Outten]

Barton,

I will have Trotec contact information for you this morning for their corporate office in Michigan. This is the best way to negotiate a discount for Trotec machines.

[Barton Scott]

Thanks Keith. I reached out to them directly and they passed me onto a Educational Reseller.

[Matt McCoy]

Barton, I just sent an email intro to some folks that can help.

[Keith Outten]

Kris Tennyson is the person to contact at Trotec's Corporate office. I have provided you with his contact information via PM.

[Ross Moshinsky]

It's none of my business, but I'm generally perplexed why a school is spending $25k+ on a laser to engrave on water bottles and iPods. How is that educational at all? How is it even financially prudent? It sounds like a terrible waste of resources. It's also disrespectful to local businesses which count on this type of business to keep their doors open. Instead you're getting free labor to do the job and you have no operational overhead. The whole premise bothers me a bit.

Your focus should be on design/CAD and creating unique items that require these tools. For example, if someone wants to create some plywood chair they designed in one of their classes, a CNC is a great tool because it will allow them to go through the whole process. It also doesn't take money out of the pockets of local businesses as frankly, no one would really want to do that type of job.

[Keith Downing]

It's none of my business, but I'm generally perplexed why a school is spending $25k+ on a laser to engrave on water bottles and iPods. How is that educational at all? How is it even financially prudent? It sounds like a terrible waste of resources. It's also disrespectful to local businesses which count on this type of business to keep their doors open. Instead you're getting free labor to do the job and you have no operational overhead. The whole premise bothers me a bit.

Your focus should be on design/CAD and creating unique items that require these tools. For example, if someone wants to create some plywood chair they designed in one of their classes, a CNC is a great tool because it will allow them to go through the whole process. It also doesn't take money out of the pockets of local businesses as frankly, no one would really want to do that type of job.

I respectfully disagree Ross. I understand times are tough for a lot of traditional engravers in some areas of the country. But if a group of high school students with one laser and one cnc hurts someone's business that much, they probably weren't going to make it anyways.

I also think it IS prudent to go ahead and get a top quality, fast US made machine IF the GRANT allows for it. It greatly reduces the chance the machine will be down for significant time, and also allows for students to complete their projects in a time and manner that will hold their interest.

To each his own I guess, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But in my eyes something like this is barely a blip on the radar for the commercial industry; and if it helps some underprivileged kids take a step in the right direct then I'm all for it.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Good businesses do not count on 1 client but many. No one should go out of business if the local HS decides to not use your services, but losing business hurts when it's a decent order.

Also, I'm not saying don't buy high technology equipment. I'm saying don't buy high tech equipment to do grunt work with it. We're supposed to expand the minds of young students. They're supposed to use these machines to create new and interesting things. Putting the school mascot on a $1.00 powder coated mug pays the bills for some of us, but it's not educational. If you look at the average wage of an engraver, it's low. If you talk to anyone on here making a living doing this, they consider themselves a business owner that happens to offer an engraving service. If any of these business owners closed their business and went to work for someone else as just an engraver, they'd struggle to exist because the difference in wages is dramatic.

These tools should be used to educate young people for their future. Marking iPads with an ID number or engraving $1 water bottles does nothing to benefit these kids. Remember, kids are growing up with great technology at their finger tips. To limit your lesson plan to such a mundane lesson plan is doing everyone a disservice.

[Barton Scott]

Ross,

You make an assumption that this is all we are doing. To the contrary those simple projects are just intended to earn us $5,000 to $8,000 a year to support the program. Those funds pay go right back into the program and most of those funds go into "community service" projects and "scholarships" for the kids.

We have a competitive program called SkillsUSA where the kids made custom furniture or professional signs, etc...

But you have to have something "easy" to sell to other schools in the district and parents. I can sell 500 water bottles to kids and parents in the district and make $5,000 a year which is done AFTER SCHOOL.

My kids learn full CAD design using AutoDesk Inventor, they learn Computer Aided Manufacturing with AutoDesk HSM. They learn about additive and subtractive manufacturing, Kaizen, Six Sigma, Build To Order, etc...

Before you attack me or my kids take a minute to learn. A link to a great article about what high schools do with Laser Engravers is below. We are trying to do the same:

https://www.pltw.org/blog/entrepreneurship-in-the-pltw-engineering-classroom

[Scott Shepherd]

We have a competitive program called SkillsUSA where the kids made custom furniture or professional signs, etc...



Just curious, how much do the kids get paid per hour to make "Professional Signs"? If the answer is zero, then you aren't running a business.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Most every post I read was with the focus of spitting out fundraiser items. I didn't see questions which were talking about the best machine to produce robotic components, industrial designs, or furniture. Where are the questions about compatibility with any type of high level software?

So my point remains, if all you're doing is focusing on having kids come after school and put the school logo on $1 water bottles, you're doing them a great disservice. If you have the machine running in the background while the group is focused on a major project then the kids are actually getting educated and you're help funding their projects.

If you're trying to teach them how to run a business, then you should start accounting for their time and the cost of their resources. Rent, utilities, insurance, COGS and most important, salary.

Also PS: You can have the kids produce a design, bring it to your local ASI vendor or silkscreener and get a water bottle out the door for around $5-6. Sell them for the same $10 and you're making money, supporting local businesses, and not using unpaid labor. I'm kind of baffled as to why people want to work to put small businesses out and then turn around and complain there aren't any jobs.

[Keith Outten]

Hey Ross I'm not sure what the difference is between a laser engraver or a CNC router in your scenario, some of us make a living running CNC routers. Either way it does seem wise to teach high tech machining and engraving in schools in the same vane as students are taught drafting, english or math. As far as raising funds it has long been acceptable for students to sell products to raise money for a variety of reasons. I never heard a bakery complain about students selling cookies they made in the school culinary class.

I've had similar conversations with companies like JDS when they refused to sell engraving materials to us at Christopher Newport University because they were afraid that the engraving companies they served would get mad at them for supporting educational facilities. Strange that anyone would feel they have the right to dictate what other organizations can or should not be doing. There are laser companies that have started training classes and I can't remember any educational institutions complaining about the competition.

I rebuilt the ShopBot CNC router at Gloucester High School last year and lately I have been helping the teacher and some students get familiar with their router. From my vantage point I hope that sometime in the future it will help us develop the next generation of sign makers. I have also encouraged them to think about items the students can produce and sell to help fund and expand their program. There is something very satisfying when you design and then produce your own design rather then farm it out to a local company.

[Ross Moshinsky]

1. Anyone with an oven, bowl, spoon, and a cookie sheet can make cookies. The local bakeries have no expectations of getting the business for a bake sale.

2. You were paid as an employee, right? While bringing work in house will always be a controversial topic on forums like this and sign forums, I see it as a distinctly different conversation than having students work for free. While it's not the same, it would be similar to your University offering to do a "sign making class" where students came in and made signs for the university. And because so much production is getting done by them, guess what, you're hours are now cut from 40+ a week to maybe 15-20 or your staff is cut down because of all the free labor. Sound fair?

3. There is no real overlap between Epilog doing a "class" and some Tech Shop doing a "class". The target audience is going to be quite different.

4. As I've said more than once now. I have no problem with educating students on how to use CNC routers, mills, or lasers. I think it's a good thing. There is too much theoretical knowledge and not enough actual knowledge. I have a problem when the curriculum and focus is using the machines in a manner which is barely of educational purpose. We should be pushing young individuals to explore their ideas and thoughts. Make things they'll never have a chance to make. Do something interesting. Putting a logo on 500 water bottles is not what I'd consider educational.

[Bill George]

Our Program was not allowed to charge money for outside projects brought in for the students to fix. We were allowed to bill for the refrigerant and other supplies used but the money for the student labor was a suggested donation to the students pizza fund or graduation party bbq picnic fund. We got negative feedback for trying to compete with local companies so it was very limited as to what we could do or not do. I can see Ross's point, maybe a dozen mugs to teach design and learn the programs or one per student on which they are graded, but 500?

[John Lifer]

I'm all for high schools teaching kids a useful function. And Yes, I did fundraising as a student for my JHS and HS bands. But we DIDN'T PRODUCE the items we sold. A COMPANY did!
And Keith, selling cookies is a bit different than the water bottle. I EAT every day, one box of cookies might not really affect a local bakery. If the school was selling year round and all the time, I might get upset.

I LOVE the idea of kids learning how to work, program and use the machines. I'm 100% with JDS not to sell to schools.
I have locally one of only two (that they know of) Chamber of Commerce that runs/funds a makerspace.
When I first learned about it, I was upset that they would be doing a lot of what I could do, and I'd lose business. So far, they have low powered laser and equipment that is only of use by kids learning, no way producing items to sell.
So learning is fine, I just don't like idea of selling products to fund it.
Good luck with the laser!

[Mike Null]

I'm in Ross' camp on this. i also wonder how they'll teach laser and cnc to kids who can barely read. At least that's what the news stories say. To muddy the water further, there are far more trade jobs available but the schools have stopped teaching trade skills. Here in St. Louis they don't even teach writing anymore.

[Lawrence Richards]

Our High School here has a GREAT tech building where they use teach CAD/CAM and use both a laser and a CNC along with other very cool toyls
http://www.ohsd.net/domain/211

I've spent some time talking with some of the teachers (my son is a Freshman) and their CTE program is both well funded and supported locally by businesses (including small businesses) The school is helping turn out their future employees and is doing a GREAT job preparing them.
http://www.whidbeynewstimes.com/news/oak-harbor-cte-students-recognized-in-year-of-champions/

Just my (hopefully not too) myopic vision... and I wish you and your school all the very best with your endeavor. You are right that our children deserve the best and I applaud your endeavor. As a parent, I appreciate your stewardship.

Lawrence

ps- both I and the local school use Epilog Helix lasers... their CNC (I believe) is a Shopbot and I use a Shark HD.

[Barton Scott]

THANK YOU for the feedback!!

[Edward Moloney]

Kris Tennyson is the person to contact at Trotec's Corporate office. I have provided you with his contact information via PM.

Thank you , Ed