Hammer saw owners: Questions on the optional Hammer power feeder

[scott vroom]

I've read that the cut edge using a slider is glue line ready, no edge jointing necessary.

I'm considering a K3 winner with the optional Hammer power feeder for cutting long, narrow face frame boards. I'm wondering if the cut edge on boards run through the feeder are of the same quality as those cut using the slider?

I know Rod has this setup, hopefully he and others can chime in :)

Thanks

[Jim Becker]

"Theoretically", if the fence is stable and the feeder dialed in to keep the material absolutely tight to the fence without deflecting the fence, you should get a similar quality rip cut on the narrower material as long as the material is flattened and thicknessed prior.

That said, I'm interested in hearing what folks who actually do this have to say! "Theoretically" doesn't always match reality. ;)

[Mike Wilkins]

Try some cuts on the slider before ordering a power feeder. Using a glue-line rip blade I have made glue-ready cuts by using clamps on the slider to rip boards and edge the also. You might not have to have a feeder unless you are making a boat-load of rips for an extremely large project.
The clamps on the slider are the key for making this happen (at least in my case).

[scott vroom]

Try some cuts on the slider before ordering a power feeder. Using a glue-line rip blade I have made glue-ready cuts by using clamps on the slider to rip boards and edge the also. You might not have to have a feeder unless you are making a boat-load of rips for an extremely large project.
The clamps on the slider are the key for making this happen (at least in my case).

Hi Mike,

I plan to use the fence as a reference on rips cuts, using a shoe and no clamps as shown in these 2 vids:

First vid fast fwd to 1:35. He's making narrow repeatable cuts using the shoe and no clamps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3EkVge5XhE

Second vid fast fwd to 11:55...he's straight lining a board using the shoe and a clamp followed by a rip cut using the fence for reference and the shoe on the slider, no clamps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZoRaBn-n70

That setup works fine unless you're ripping boards longer than the capacity of your wagon stroke. For longer cuts, the power feeder seems like a good (if not expensive) alternative to standing behind the blade to make the cuts the old fashion way.

[Ryan Mooney]

Just to complicate the discussion slightly...

There is also the "HAMMER(r) Trimming Equipment" option:
http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Accessories/Sliding-table-accessories/HAMMER-Trimming-Equipment.html

Which is basically a set of slides that ride in the slot on the sliding table. You screw them to a piece of plywood and then use that as the "rip table". This effectively lengthens the sliding table to ~somewhat more~ depending on how large of a piece of plywood you use (up to the sag limit and how much you can keep the slides engaged in the table. I believe that works out to somewhere around 10'+-.

Its not a replacement to the power feeder but it is an interesting alternative in some cases. IMHO generally more useful for ripping large/heavy bits than narrow/thin bits.

I have been personally generally unhappy with the height of the sliding table interfering with traditional rip cuts (its enough that the result is most definitely NOT glue line ready in my case.. YMMV) but haven't yet screwed up the courage to try and lower it as it looks complicated... :eek: On the plus side the cut quality using the slider and the features it offers have (also imho) more than made up for it.

[scott vroom]

Ryan, I don't yet own a slider, but it seems that as long as the stock is flat against the sliding table the cut will be a perfect 90 degrees. What issue have you encountered?

[John Lankers]

A steady feedrate is what you want and you can get that with the power feeder on the right side of the blade with the fence in the low position (the offcut piece on the left of the blade). Having said that, I use my "Fritz and Franz" jig to make rip cuts down to 1/16", it is just as accurate and much quicker to set up.
Edit: I use "Silent Power Silver" blades.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Ryan, I don't yet own a slider, but it seems that as long as the stock is flat against the sliding table the cut will be a perfect 90 degrees. What issue have you encountered?

I will echo Ryan's comments - the slider wagon is slightly higher than the right side (fixed) table (on purpose), but this means that if you're ripping a narrow piece, it might be at a small angle (relative to the rip fence), and you won't get a square cut.

[Chris Parks]

I only use the slider to rip, the rip fence lives on the shelf and in its place I have a small length of rip fence extrusion to use as a measuring stop. I can't remember when I last used a full length rip fence.

[scott vroom]

Ryan, thanks for that link to the 3000mm T-track. Looks ideal for straight lining lumber longer than the wagon stroke. As an aside, here's a couple of pics of my spur of the moment solution to straight line 10' boards on my Griz. MDF base using L brackets to hold the stock flat, referenced off the fence. Crude but on short notice it worked great.

[Andy Giddings]

I do the same as John - use an F & F jig for anything that the cross cut fence won't handle (great looking jig by the way, John!). I do have a power feeder but have not used it on the saw.

I don't think you would get glue up ready surfaces (if that's your goal) due to small alignment issues referred to earlier and other areas (eg the Hammer feeder mount is not solid cast iron, but pressed steel so there would be some flex there). I think you would still need to joint and plane just as Marius does in the videos you linked earlier

[Rick Fisher]

I have a slider.. I don't think the aluminum slider is higher than the cast table, but I should check .. For straight line rips, the blade quality is #1 .. clamps are really helpful .. Hold the wood super still and slide it through .. I use a 100 tooth negative kerf blade .. Its technically a cross cut blade, but it leaves a glue line finish..

I wouldn't order a feeder on a slider unless it had a shaper built in .. Others may .. I dunno

[Chris Parks]

I glue straight from the saw using a Forrest 2 blade and the glue line is invisible for all intents and purposes. I just hand hold the panel being cut on the sliding table and the crosscut fence set at the leading end of the slider. In fact I don't own any hold down clamps at all for that matter and it has never caused me any problems so far. If I was gang cutting sheets then I reckon a clamp or two would not go astray. Have you seen this.....




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--M-Iz2pw1k

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Scott, yes I have used the feeder with the rip fence, the cut is great as the feed speed is constant and so is the pressure.

You only need a slight bias towards the fence.

The issue you will run into is reach of the feeder, as the mounting bracket locates the feeder mount behind the saw table.

For narrow strips it's great...............Rod.

[James Zhu]

I have a slider.. I don't think the aluminum slider is higher than the cast table, but I should check ..

Rick, the sliding table is definitely higher than the cast iron table, otherwise, when you cut using sliding table, the cast iron table would drag the stock.

If the cast iron table top is flat within 0.001", it is possible to adjust the sliding table, so it is only 0.002" or 0.003" higher than the cast iron table. I would call that PERFECT.

I know you have a Martin slider, I am just curious about its sliding table height in relation to the cast iron table.

James

[John Lankers]

This is exactly the way I do it, it is safer, more ergonomically convenient and more precise.
Edit: In reference to what Chris Parks describes in post #9

[Jim Becker]

For folks not familiar with a slider, yes, rips using the wagon (slider) are pretty pristine when the material is immovable on the wagon through the cut, clamped or held securely. It's noticeably cleaner than manually running a board along a fence. And using a parallel ripping setup, commercial or shop-made, deals with the second edge very nicely.

That said, I believe the OP's question is more pointed toward dealing with narrow repetitive rips, such as rail/style material, which are a little harder to do with just the slider action because there's little width there to provide for clamping or safely holding the material by hand. So using a power feeder properly setup "should" both keep the material stable through the cut while running along the fence in a way that one cannot do by hand and also eliminate the hand from coming close to the blade.

[Ryan Mooney]

I will echo Ryan's comments - the slider wagon is slightly higher than the right side (fixed) table (on purpose), but this means that if you're ripping a narrow piece, it might be at a small angle (relative to the rip fence), and you won't get a square cut.

That nicely summarizes it. The slider on mine is noticeably higher than the cast iron top. I've never measured because unless I'm planning to fix it.. its just noodling.. but its enough higher that if you rip a board between the fence and the saw there is a noticeable bevel. You can get around that by ripping a smidge wide and then re-ripping a thin strip off the outside.. but its not super practical in practice because for most purposes there are better methods (or at least better given the limitations of the setup). If it was only 2-3 thou higher I don't think I'd have been bothered by it but again haven't mustered up the courage to try to drop it down to that :o

I believe the Felder X-Roll platform is _usually_ tuned a bit tighter but I've heard of numerous people adjusting that system down a bit as well.

At this point I pretty much never use the rip fence, and have been considering adjusting it to have zero toe out so its more accurately useful as a slid back bump stop (the usual toe out introduces a bit of parallax). If I did that either cutting down the fence or ordering the short version might be useful to keep it out of the road when pulled back behind the blade.

On the power feeder, if you're really indenting to use it with the saw.. If you get the F48 you can separately buy the longer support arm. At least on the larger K3 and B3 saws they will handle the F48, the smaller ones might not like the weight as much and could be a smidge tippy. Its also a fair bit heavier to rotate up and over (the K3/B3 doesn't have a support bracket available with the gas assist - although you could probably rig one).

You will most definitely find the straight line rip on the slider to be VASTLY superior to the straight line setup you have on your current table saw. It really is a pleasure to use, especially for larger pieces.

Chris P, thanks for finding the video showing the 3000mm T-track but I couldn't find it when I looked..

[James Zhu]

That nicely summarizes it. The slider on mine is noticeably higher than the cast iron top. I've never measured because unless I'm planning to fix it.. its just noodling.. but its enough higher that if you rip a board between the fence and the saw there is a noticeable bevel. You can get around that by ripping a smidge wide and then re-ripping a thin strip off the outside.. but its not super practical in practice because for most purposes there are better methods (or at least better given the limitations of the setup). If it was only 2-3 thou higher I don't think I'd have been bothered by it but again haven't mustered up the courage to try to drop it down to that :o

I believe the Felder X-Roll platform is _usually_ tuned a bit tighter but I've heard of numerous people adjusting that system down a bit as well.

At this point I pretty much never use the rip fence, and have been considering adjusting it to have zero toe out so its more accurately useful as a slid back bump stop (the usual toe out introduces a bit of parallax). If I did that either cutting down the fence or ordering the short version might be useful to keep it out of the road when pulled back behind the blade.

On the power feeder, if you're really indenting to use it with the saw.. If you get the F48 you can separately buy the longer support arm. At least on the larger K3 and B3 saws they will handle the F48, the smaller ones might not like the weight as much and could be a smidge tippy. Its also a fair bit heavier to rotate up and over (the K3/B3 doesn't have a support bracket available with the gas assist - although you could probably rig one).

You will most definitely find the straight line rip on the slider to be VASTLY superior to the straight line setup you have on your current table saw. It really is a pleasure to use, especially for larger pieces.

Chris P, thanks for finding the video showing the 3000mm T-track but I couldn't find it when I looked..

Felder's standard in terms of sliding table height in relation to cast iron table is 0.012", but many people found that the actual height is higher than 0.012". It was almost 0.020" on my KF700sp, I spent 22 hours to get it down to about 0.006" / 0.007", it was not fun, and I do not want to do it again. I can do rip cut against rip fence like you do rip on cabinet saw, and i would say it is pretty square.

Regarding F-48, I do not recommend it, I have one, too heavy, not easy to adjust. I would recommend to buy Co-Matic power feeder. Many Felder machine owners replaced F48 with Co-Matic power feeder.

http://www.co-matic.com/
http://www.shopgearinc.com/products/co-matic-power-feeders/4-wheel-variable-speed.php

James

[Ryan Mooney]

Felder's standard in terms of sliding table height in relation to cast iron table is 0.012", but many people found that the actual height is higher than 0.012". It was almost 0.020" on my KF700sp, I spent 22 hours to get it down to about 0.006" / 0.007", it was not fun, and I do not want to do it again. I can do rip cut against rip fence like you do rip on cabinet saw, and i would say it is pretty square.

Regarding F-48, I do not recommend it, I have one, too heavy, not easy to adjust. I would recommend to buy Co-Matic power feeder. Many Felder machine owners replaced F48 with Co-Matic power feeder.

http://www.co-matic.com/
http://www.shopgearinc.com/products/co-matic-power-feeders/4-wheel-variable-speed.php

James

Where were you BEFORE I bought the F48... :rolleyes: Yeah the F48 is beastly heavy... I don't use it nearly as much as it would be nice to sometimes because of that. I would second that the adjustments are.. complex... but didn't have a lot to compare either. The point was more that the shorter/stock arm on the Felder feeders don't reach the saw very well, measure and do the math. The stock arm was easier to lift because there was less metal in the way, but less flexible as well.

I'm pretty sure the Hammer has a lower tolerance than the K700's, I'd bet mine is at least 0.020 or even higher (y'all are going to make me measure it aren't you... maybe tomorrow in the daylight).

[Andy Giddings]

Where were you BEFORE I bought the F48... :rolleyes: Yeah the F48 is beastly heavy... I don't use it nearly as much as it would be nice to sometimes because of that. I would second that the adjustments are.. complex... but didn't have a lot to compare either. The point was more that the shorter/stock arm on the Felder feeders don't reach the saw very well, measure and do the math. The stock arm was easier to lift because there was less metal in the way, but less flexible as well.

I'm pretty sure the Hammer has a lower tolerance than the K700's, I'd bet mine is at least 0.020 or even higher (y'all are going to make me measure it aren't you... maybe tomorrow in the daylight).
If it ain't broke Ryan - I've never bothered measuring my C3. As long as you are happy with the results, who cares whether its 0.030 or 0.003? Last time I checked its wood we're working with, not metal :-)

[Rick Fisher]

Rick, the sliding table is definitely higher than the cast iron table, otherwise, when you cut using sliding table, the cast iron table would drag the stock.

If the cast iron table top is flat within 0.001", it is possible to adjust the sliding table, so it is only 0.002" or 0.003" higher than the cast iron table. I would call that PERFECT.

I know you have a Martin slider, I am just curious about its sliding table height in relation to the cast iron table.

James


Hey James.. Yeah I took a look and your right, it is higher.. I don't have my dial indicator ( cant find it ).. When I do I will measure it .. I learned something ..

[David Kumm]

I have set all my sliders at .002-.004 above the table at the blade. If power feeding a larger number of pieces, I'd also clamp a block behind the fence to give it more strength. The extrusion isn't that heavy. The saws that were designed for power feeding usually had fences that clamped on a back rail so some extra support is a good thing. Dave

[James Zhu]

Hey James.. Yeah I took a look and your right, it is higher.. I don't have my dial indicator ( cant find it ).. When I do I will measure it .. I learned something ..

Rick, I expect Martin has a very higher standard, cause I never ever heard any Martin slider owner adjusted the sliding table height.

I learned how to adjust sliding table height from David P. Best who is the author of "The Unofficial Survival Guide" for Felder sliding table saw and shaper.

[James Zhu]

Ryan,

Since you have a slider, you should join Felder Owner Group on yahoo.com. There are lots of experts on the FOG, great folks, they will answer all your questions and provide guidance. I enjoy reading the threads and always learn new things.

I knew CoMatic power feeder when I bought the F48 with my KF700sp, I got a really good deal on it. CoMatic would be twice the price since I am in Canada. If I had a separate shaper (I have no more space in my double car garage), I would definitely cry once and buy the CoMatic power feeder.

[Ryan Mooney]

Ryan,

Since you have a slider, you should join Felder Owner Group on yahoo.com. There are lots of experts on the FOG, great folks, they will answer all your questions and provide guidance. I enjoy reading the threads and always learn new things.

I knew CoMatic power feeder when I bought the F48 with my KF700sp, I got a really good deal on it. CoMatic would be twice the price since I am in Canada. If I had a separate shaper (I have no more space in my double car garage), I would definitely cry once and buy the CoMatic power feeder.

I've been a lurker on the FOG for ~6 years. It is indeed a fantastic resource and not just for Felder bits.

I bought the F48 when felder had a sale that put it ~20% less than the Comatic which was somewhat compelling (I had been really wanted one for the shaper - I have B3, the shaper still freaks me out).

[Dan Friedrichs]

Just out of curiosity, I got out the straight edge and feeler gauges - the slider is 0.005" higher on my Hammer C3-31. Much better than I expected.

[Rick Fisher]

Martin ranges from .003 to .007 ... Using a Betterly unaguage ..

[David Davies]

John, Where did you get the extrusions and flip stops for your Fritz and Frans?
Dave

[John Lankers]

I do the same as John - use an F & F jig for anything that the cross cut fence won't handle (great looking jig by the way, John!). I do have a power feeder but have not used it on the saw.

Thanks Andy, this is the one jig I don't want to miss in the shop, ever.

[John Lankers]

John, Where did you get the extrusions and flip stops for your Fritz and Frans?
Dave

David, I bought the t-track, flip stops and the tape from LeeValley. I only wish the bottom of the stops where they hug the channel were rounded or half moon shaped for a more positive lock, but over all I'm very happy with the setup.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=73516&cat=1,43455,61994