Bowl Turning - Recess in the bottom to fit over Nova chuck

[Randy Heinemann]

I am relatively new to turning. I have seen a lot of responses on this and other forums concerning how to get the dovetail in the recess on a bowl bottom to fit over the dovetail on the Nova chuck (in this case a Nova G3) but cannot find any videos showing this. Given that I learn better seeing sometimes than by description it would be helpful to find a video reference of this operation.

I have tried a parting tool and am now trying a flat skew, but end up with catches and have not been very successful. I have seen the Nova Dovetail tool and may just buy that but, before I do I'd really like to be able to do it with the 3/4" skew I bought. Any suggestions on videos or a site that has more pictures? I think my biggest problem is how I'm presenting the skew to the bowl bottom, which is why it's catching. Thanks.

[Roger Chandler]

Your skew should be resting on the toolrest with the flat side on the rest, and the long point towards you. It should be in scraping mode, with light contact with the wood.....what we refer to as a negative rake position. Make the recess a little at a time with forward movement into the wood, taking a little bigger circle until you are at the diameter you need for the chuck jaws. You should be cutting at a hair above the center and not below it.

Sorry, I do not know of any videos, but this is a simple thing to do.

[John Grace]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSpLuWsVuYE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZKRlMNC5mc

Search YouTube Randy and you'll find quite a few demonstrations.

[Reed Gray]

My variation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KHkkws9lWA&t=15s

robo hippy

[Randy Heinemann]

Roger Chandler,

I'm sure it is a simple thing to do. I do have a couple of questions about your explanation. . .

1. When you say the skew should have the "long point towards you". I'm not sure what that means.
2. What is the "scraping mode"? Negative rake position?

So, push the long point into the wood up to the outer edge of the diameter of the circle you need cut. To get the dovetail shape (angled sides that fit over the G3 chuck), do you just move the skew sideways till you reach the correct angel?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

What Roger means is this. Your tool rest is perpendicular to the lathe bed and parallel to the bottom of the bowl blank. You hold your skew parallel to the lathe bed with the long point closest to you so you are cutting as you draw the tool towards you on the tool rest.

I had to stop and think about it too.

When you scrape using a tool, typically you want the scraper either absolutely horizontal or tilted slightly down referring to the working end. In other words, the handle slightly higher than the working end of the tool.

Watch Mike Peace's video. He shows it quite well, IMO.

[Doug Hepler]

Randy,

Reed's video is very helpful. I basically follow the procedure he describes early in the video. I cut mortises for scroll chuck mounts with a large Forstner bit with diameter that is just a bit larger than my #2 jaws, closed.

If I was going to turn the mortise on my lathe I would rough it out with a parting tool (cut many circles) and clean it up with a bedan tool. I don't think that you need to fuss about the dovetail angle. My jaws are straight so I cut a straight-sided mortise and it holds well.

Doug

[Roger Chandler]

I was not aware of Reed's youtube video on this, but I had previously seen Mike Peace's video. Sorry I failed to recall that, and thanks to those who gave the links to them. Thanks Ken for elaborating on my comments....sometimes a thought is clear to the commenter, but not clear to the reader.

[Paul Williams]

I cut the recess with a bedan or with a 2 1/8 inch forsner bit. Normally I do not cut the dovetail in soft or medium density wood. When I do cut the dovetail I use a skew as described by others. Basically I find it easier to cut the recess and then add the dovetail if I think it is required.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Here is a video by Bob Hamilton that shows a nice way of making a recess, you can skip right to about the 7 minute mark, but the whole video is well worth watching, Bob has a nice and easy going way of showing how he does it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVjLGHVHF50

I myself use the recess almost exclusively, and have for many years, I just use a scraper with a curved end that becomes a point (see picture) and push that in going in steps till the recess is large and deep enough, I always use a straight walled recess, and make sure it is cut nice and clean.

359303

The jaws grip right at the bottom, you can see that in this picture.

359304

[Randy Heinemann]

Thanks for all the responses. I read them all and I ended up getting very close to the desired final product this evening when I had a little bit of time. I just need a little more practice to get it perfect. I did use the skew and, although I did not first understand, I figured out what the intent was when I got down to my lathe.

After watching Reed's video, I think using the dovetail tool looks a lot easier and more reliable to create a dovetailed recess, especially for a beginner like me. I know Nova makes a dovetail turning tool that cuts at the angle of their chucks.

Anyway, thanks again. The video references were very helpful and your information very useful.

[Randy Heinemann]

I did purchase the dovetail chisel and find that, after a couple of tries I think it was a great choice to quickly get a recess in the bottom of the bowl to fit my chuck. Question about sharpening this tool . . . I have honed the flat side of the tool with my regular stones using the 800 and 1200 diamond and then my 4000 and 8000 waterstones. I guess the cutting is a little better, but I am wondering if there is something else I can do to sharpen it without disturbing the dovetail angle? Any suggestions or is honing the back flat side it?

[Reed Gray]

Randy,
We recently had a demo by the owner of the local Woodcraft Store. When he got to his dove tail scraper, he told how it was 3 years old, and he only honed the top, which was very shiny. I had to stop and think because I had tried that before, but didn't do it any more. So, back in the shop, I was turning some madrone (cuts like green pear wood) and the honed top did a fairly good job, but any thing does a good job in madrone. I was turning some big leaf maple, which tends to be a bit stringy, and it didn't do a good job on the BLM. I put a burr on it, and it did a much better job. The dove tail tool is a scraper, and scrapers, on all but the hardest woods, cut better with a burr. So, hone off the old burr, or burnish it down. Then hone, grind, or burnish a new burr back on, by touching up the bevel, not the top. I have found 220 hones raise a better roughing type burr than a 600 grit hone. That is more suitable for fine finish cuts..

robo hippy

[Thom Sturgill]

What chuck has square jaws on the outside?

[Leo Van Der Loo]

What chuck has square jaws on the outside?

No dovetail on the standart Oneway profiled jaws, and they hold best on straight tenon or recess.

360829 360830

[ron david]

I am relatively new to turning. I have seen a lot of responses on this and other forums concerning how to get the dovetail in the recess on a bowl bottom to fit over the dovetail on the Nova chuck (in this case a Nova G3) but cannot find any videos showing this. Given that I learn better seeing sometimes than by description it would be helpful to find a video reference of this operation.

I have tried a parting tool and am now trying a flat skew, but end up with catches and have not been very successful. I have seen the Nova Dovetail tool and may just buy that but, before I do I'd really like to be able to do it with the 3/4" skew I bought. Any suggestions on videos or a site that has more pictures? I think my biggest problem is how I'm presenting the skew to the bowl bottom, which is why it's catching. Thanks.
sometimes it is best to seek out some instruction. that will cover how to present the tool to the materail and sharpenig of your tools. some safety outlloks
ron

[Randy Heinemann]

Since buying the dovetail chisel and practicing a couple of times, I no longer have the problem of cutting a recess with the proper angle in the bottom that will fit on my Nova chuck. It's keeping it sharp that is the issue. Even not so sharp it works well but the finish could be a little better. No real safety issues though.

[ron david]

I wasn
' just talking about instruction for that one operation. I was referring to instruction for basic turning which should show you how to present the tool to the material in more than 1 direction. scraping , cutting and which tool to use. most basic tools will allow you to many functioss, so that you don't have to go and buy a special tool for that one function. they should instruct you on how to sharpen your tools. dull tools cause more problems than sharp ones. saferty is always an issue. the male ego is a tough obstacle.
ron

[Brice Rogers]

I saw the dovetail scraper a year or two ago and thought that it would work nicely. So I made one. But it required me to move the tailstock out of the way. On some bowls that were rough turned, I needed to clean up the recess and using a jam chuck to hold the piece made me a bit nervous. But the tailstock would get in the way.

So, I made a special scraper with an HSS insert that was at an angle. That allows me to come in at an angle with the tailstock still in place. It works very well. I sharpen it at 80 degrees the same as I sharpen other scrapers.

[Thom Sturgill]

2-3 degrees according to the picture.... A bit less than half of a normal dovetail, but has a similar ridge to the inside of a Nova chuck that also says straight sided (tenon).

[Randy Heinemann]

Well, each to his own. I actually like the simplicity of the dovetail chisel. It does exactly what I need it to and well, also. I tried other ways and actually have taken 2 classes. The dovetail chisel is my method of choice right now. Also, right now, to get started, I'm using carbide insert tools. For me, as a beginner, it allowed me the opportunity to get started turning and do so without the added issue of regular sharpening. It's possible that, over time, I will find that I can do a better job with steel chisels, gouges, etc. but I am really more of a furniture making type of woodworker and may never get into turning enough to really feel compelled to go the steel tool route. I have turned a number of small bowls in which my wife has inserted polymer clay bands and that was really the reason that got me started anyway. As long as I can do that I will be happy. Thanks for the advice though. I actually learn better by doing and from bowl 1 to bowl 6 I 've made a lot of improvements. The dovetail chisel just provided me an easy way to turn the recess in the bottom.

[John K Jordan]

Since buying the dovetail chisel and practicing a couple of times, I no longer have the problem of cutting a recess with the proper angle in the bottom that will fit on my Nova chuck. It's keeping it sharp that is the issue. Even not so sharp it works well but the finish could be a little better. No real safety issues though.

I'm not sure what a "dovetail chisel" is for wood turning, but if it's the type made for hand-paring dovetail joints and you are using it basically as a scraper, I suspect the grind needs to be modified significantly for the edge to last at the lathe. Also, some are made from steel perfect for hand use but not as durable as what's usually used at the lathe these days.

I use a HSS diamond parting tool ground at an angle for both a recess and a tenon. Works well and stays sharp.

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

Here you go John. I have seen double sided ones so you can cut a dove tail recess and/or tenon. Just line up the shaft of the tool with the ways of your lathe and plunge in. I usually start inside the line, then take the line on the next cut. You can perfectly match the angle of your chuck jaws.

https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/138/1467/Henry-Taylor-M2-HSS-Dovetail-Tool?term=recess+scraper

robo hippy

[Randy Heinemann]

No, not a chisel used for hand-paring dovetails. . . It's made for wood turning to cut the angle in the base to fit, in this case, the angle on the Nova G3 chuck (and other Nova chucks I guess). It's sold at Woodcraft and most online stores that sell wood-turning tools and/or Nova equipment and accessories.

[ron david]

what ever happened to just using a skew?
ron

[John K Jordan]

Ok, that would be easy to make. In fact, I made a scraper much like that for a special purpose and never knew I made a dovetail "tool", as they call it in your link. I think I'll keep using my angled parting tool as it works well for a number of other cuts too. Can't remember who but I saw a demonstrator using one at a symposium ground this way, maybe it was Rudy Lopez.

JKJ


Here you go John. I have seen double sided ones so you can cut a dove tail recess and/or tenon. Just line up the shaft of the tool with the ways of your lathe and plunge in. I usually start inside the line, then take the line on the next cut. You can perfectly match the angle of your chuck jaws.

https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/138/1467/Henry-Taylor-M2-HSS-Dovetail-Tool?term=recess+scraper

robo hippy

[Randy Heinemann]

I tried that and may go back to it some day. However, given, I'm a beginner, the skew gave me a few problems. For now, I get better results with the dovetail chisel, so why not use it till I develop a bit more? My main woodworking interest has not been turning; didn't even turn at all until several months ago. I love it, don't get me wrong, mainly because each piece is somewhat unique whether the shape is about the same or not. I love making cabinets, furniture, and other one of a kind type things a lot, though, and only started turning to provide a different media for my wife's polymer clay art. So . . . until I know what I want to do, I'm taking the "easy" route with all things turning; whatever is the easiest for me to do to get the result I want, that's the way I'm going at this point.

[John K Jordan]

what ever happened to just using a skew?
ron

Mark St Leger makes good use of a 1/4" round skew for a variety of tasks such as straight-sided internal cuts. Seems like it would be good for outside of the recess but I haven't tried it, I've only used skews as skews. He pushes straight along the skew axis, straight along the bed of the lathe for cylindrical cuts, using the sharp (curved) edge at the side of the upper bevel for a clean cut in end grain.

I suspect the clearance on a skew made from a round bar would be better on the outer edge of a recess than one made from rectangular stock. I think he also uses the skewed edge as a scraper at times.

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

A skew does work, but I want the angles to match as perfectly as possible for the best grip possible. Specialized tool makes that a lot easier. The burr on a skew won't hold up very well either.

robo hippy

[Randy Heinemann]

Randy,
We recently had a demo by the owner of the local Woodcraft Store. When he got to his dove tail scraper, he told how it was 3 years old, and he only honed the top, which was very shiny. I had to stop and think because I had tried that before, but didn't do it any more. So, back in the shop, I was turning some madrone (cuts like green pear wood) and the honed top did a fairly good job, but any thing does a good job in madrone. I was turning some big leaf maple, which tends to be a bit stringy, and it didn't do a good job on the BLM. I put a burr on it, and it did a much better job. The dove tail tool is a scraper, and that scrapers, on all but the hardest woods, cut better with a burr. So, hone off the old burr, or burnish it down. Then hone, grind, or burnish a new burr back on, by touching up the bevel, not the top. I have found 220 hones raise a better roughing type burr than a 600 grit hone. That is more suitable for fine finish cuts..

robo hippy
Reed,

I'm a little confused about sharpening the dovetail chisel based on your description. When you talk about "touching up the bevel" do you mean to actually run the bevel itself over the stone? The reason I ask is that I am not having success with this.

[ron david]

A skew does work, but I want the angles to match as perfectly as possible for the best grip possible. Specialized tool makes that a lot easier. The burr on a skew won't hold up very well either.

robo hippy
well if you cut a few you get an eye for the bevel. if the skew needs sharpening , just sharpen it and get on with it. only if I ever need an exceptional cut would i hone a turning chisel and especially on a dovetail mount as I would remove the dovetail at the conclusion if finishing of the bottom. the dovetails only function for me is to hold it in a chuck
ron

[Reed Gray]

I don't hone them, I take them to the grinder, a well broken in 180 grit CBN wheel, 6+ years old, but can't remember. So, scrapers cut with a burr, unless you are cutting really hard woods or some of the acrylics. Best burrs come from the CBN wheel, far better than the standard white, pink or blue wheels. You can burnish a burr as well, which I do by hand. Still experimenting with that one, but easier to do a quick touch up with it, and like a card scraper, you can turn the old one down, then turn it back up a couple of times. You can also hone a burr on. Talking to Kel McNaughton (maker of the coring system) some years back, he suggests to hone the burr on his coring knives. He said, 'the coarser the honing card, the better the burr.' I experimented, and did like the 220 grit burr better than the finer cards. The coarser cards leave a stronger burr. Depending on the wood I am turning, some times the burr is good for several bowls, some times good for only one or two. Haven't tried the 600 grit wheel yet, which has round edges, or the 1000 grit which has square edges. Dang, more experimenting ahead... I think the idea with a finer grit is that it is almost like burnishing if you push it enough...

robo hippy

[John K Jordan]

well if you cut a few you get an eye for the bevel. if the skew needs sharpening , just sharpen it and get on with it. only if I ever need an exceptional cut would i hone a turning chisel and especially on a dovetail mount as I would remove the dovetail at the conclusion if finishing of the bottom. the dovetails only function for me is to hold it in a chuck
ron

I mentioned earlier that Mark St Leger is a proponent of using a 1/4" round skew to shape and enlarge inside diameters of recesses including shaping dovetails. Another turner (can't remember) advised using a diamond profile parting tool ground at the dovetail angle for both recesses and tenons. I've been using this for years (and also a small scraper I ground with dovetail angles) but I was surprised at how well the small round skew worked. I think it's better than the scraper and the parting tool and I'm using it often now (and it's also perfect for cutting small beads, of course!)

As for cutting the recess I usually use a parting tool ground straight on the ends, although where appropriate a 2-1/4" Forstner bit is a lot faster, either in the drill press on in the tailstock. I just cut about a dozen recesses this way in round blanks I flattened first on the drum sander (for Beads of Courage boxes). As someone else mentioned dovetail jaws hold fine in most woods without actually cutting a dovetail since the wood can deform. The Forstner bit does make a hole a tiny bit too big - a 2-1/16" bit would be better or maybe a 52mm.

BTW, when the mood strikes I occasionally make the recess part of my base design:
365289 365290

JKJ

[John Keeton]

Like JKJ, I use a decorative base to incorporate the chuck recess. Nearly all of my platters are done this way, though I rarely use it for bowls or smaller turnings because of the lack of sufficient surrounding material to support the stress on the recess.

[John K Jordan]

Like JKJ, I use a decorative base to incorporate the chuck recess. Nearly all of my platters are done this way, though I rarely use it for bowls or smaller turnings because of the lack of sufficient surrounding material to support the stress on the recess.

I agree, the design and wood and strength must be taken into consideration. For non-platters I generally use it where my base is thicker on purpose. I'm making Beads of Courage bowls/boxes this week and for those I like to design a thicker base to lower the center of gravity.

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

My daily use 'utility' bowls have a finished recess for the bottom. The dove tail scraper does a fair job of cutting, but to clean it up for a 220 sanding, I use one of Doug Thompson's small flutelss gouges for going across the bottom, and another one of them ground to a detail gouge profile to make a cut down the edge of the recess. It leaves every thing slick, and pretty much tear out free..

I don't like the idea of trying to cut come what close, and then having the wood deformed by the chuck jaws. That puts uneven pressure on parts of the recess, which, if you have a catch, can cause failure. If the angles are very close, most of the time it will survive the catch without having to make a whole different recess.

A skew can be used, which is pretty much a negative rake scraper. While that can work okay, the burr has no durability compared to a grinder burr, or a burnished burr. I do sharpen when dull, but prefer a 'production' edge to a finish cut edge for most uses.

robo hippy

[ron david]

do you also have different tools for different days?
ron

[Reed Gray]

Well, not really..... It still confuses me when one gouge will work fine on one bowl, but not the next. Even on bowls from the same tree...

robo hippy

[John K Jordan]

do you also have different tools for different days?
ron


Well, not really..... It still confuses me when one gouge will work fine on one bowl, but not the next. Even on bowls from the same tree...
robo hippy


Sometimes I use a different tool for different minutes. Yesterday I tried five different tools to find the one that worked best for that situation - hollowing mixed hard and soft layers through an opening wide enough to feel the inside so it needs to be perfect.

JKJ