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Scott Shepherd
04-29-2017, 9:54 AM
I've been a this for about 10 years now and I've seen a lot of changes in the business in these short 10 years, but lately, in my opinion, the level of expectations had gone bananas. The amount of phone calls we get on Friday afternoons has blown up. And the after hours calls has too. People have no problem calling at 7:45 at night and not leaving a message, but they will call back repeatedly, minutes apart.

We quoted a job the first week of April. The guy said "This entire job has to be done by the end of April, know that when you quote it. If you can't do it by then, don't quote it". I quoted it. Didn't hear a word. Calls on the 26th of the month "Hey, I'm sending the PO to you for that job and we're heading that way to bring you the items now". Of course, it's about 90 hours worth of work.

Seriously?

Last Friday afternoon, a customer leaves 10 cases of product at our back door without us knowing. Someone went to take the trash out and couldn't open the door. I came in Saturday to an email about it with the file. Needs them by Tuesday. I look at the items and the files. It's 43 hours of work. No notice, no nothing, just drop them off and email.

Had a guy come in yesterday, had items he wanted engraved. Keeping in mind, this is Friday. He said "I need them no later than Tuesday". I had to laugh inside as he walked out the door and said "Have a nice weekend". I thought to myself "What weekend? I'll be working on your items to get them to you by Tuesday".

In 10 years, I've never seen it like this.

My favorite (sarcasm) are the "No hurry, just whenever you get to it, it's not for any event" customers who promptly walk out the door and start to call 4 hours later, repeatedly until you finally do their job.

One thing I will say is that my hopes and beliefs have always been that if you help someone out in their time of need, it'll eventually pay off. Well, 10 years later, I'm still waiting for that one job where I stayed late or worked the weekend to turn into some monster contract. Hasn't happened yet. What I have done is give up 100's of my weekends for it. I'm rethinking my philosophy on that "it'll pay off" theory ;)

Dave Sheldrake
04-29-2017, 10:32 AM
Believe me Scotty, it doesn't matter how many lasers you have or how long you have been doing it it's no different for us either :)

My take? there are so many hobby monkeys buying K40's and running them in their spare time at cut price rates who will do that kind of work that buyers in general expect everybody else to do it lately.

"But they will do it for $5 an item"

Good...get them to do it then because I'm not :)

Matt McCoy
04-29-2017, 11:29 AM
Steve: I see this too and chatting with peers, the perception is that expectations are rapidly changing to the Amazon Prime standard. We are all getting spoiled by getting whatever we want, when we want it, and at the lowest price possible. Great for consumers, hard for businesses. It can be a difficult situation when customers mistakenly or purposefully miss stated lead times.

I'm sure you have a rush fee, but it still stinks having to cancel weekend and evening plans to accommodate.

Chuck Phillips
04-29-2017, 11:32 AM
I turn this kind of work down all the time. Give them your estimate of lead time and price and stand on it. 8 years in business now, no regrets. Take care of yourself and your family first.

Scott Shepherd
04-29-2017, 11:33 AM
Interesting Dave. I don't know the cause here. Not sure if it's related to cheap lasers or not. I had a guy drop a sample off and ask me if I could do it. I said "Sure". He left it and later brought me the material. He said "no hurry, just shoot me a quote when you have time". Apparently "No hurry" didn't mean "No hurry" because he showed up shortly after that, with no notice and said "Apparently you have too much to do, so I'll find someone else".

Well, okay. I guess "No Hurry" meant "No hurry, as long as it's tomorrow". I'm thinking "Shoot, we failed that customer".

3 weeks later, he walks in the door, totally unannounced, with stacks of parts. "I need these engraved when you have time".

Seems like the market here is just overloaded with work and people with poor planning skills ;)

Kev Williams
04-29-2017, 1:30 PM
Gee, it's not only me?? :D

For like five Fridays in a row thru Feb and March, one of my top 5 customers of over 30 years, has dropped 1500 to 2000 some-odd dollar jobs off after 6pm and said "I'll pick these up on my way to work Monday morning!"

Well, whaddya do? The reason for this was one of THEIR best customers was threatening to pull the plug because of being 6 weeks late on a large order, the reason for so late was MY customer couldn't get the materials they needed to make the parts....what is it that runs downhill?? The problem is, money doesn't ;) -- If my customer loses that account, I lose an ongoing job that's into the $400 per machine hour territory. Things are now back to normal on that job, sorta- I have 24 more units being dropped off next Wed that they want Friday, each unit is 2 pieces about 15" x 20" x 5" with 6 sides to be engraved, so in essence it's actually 144 parts. But at least I'll get it during the actual work week!

That's next week- Yesterday, after 4pm, I got TWO Monday morning jobs, one a gold plated Invicta for a BYU basketball player who already has his own logo, the second was a frantic phone call from a guy in Florida who is 'going to be sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars!!' if he can't produce some long overdue keypads by end of day Monday. The overnight pack just got here 1/2 hour ago, I have to engrave buttons for the keypads, then overnight them back Monday...

But boating season is here, and now it's time to say NO!! to these weekend jobs! (yeah, right-- ;) )

Most of my regulars try their best to give me time, which I appreciate. But something has to give...Just yesterday I put my website back up, it essentially says I'm no longer going to take on jewelry, awards or other personalization type engraving, simply too busy with the industrial stuff.

John Lifer
04-29-2017, 3:24 PM
I need some of your work :)
Well, One thing to do that would counter at least some of it is to have a weekend/overnight rate. About a 50% upcharge for rush jobs. Yeah, I know that if it is a regular customer, that isn't happening, but you can't run 24-7 all the time unless you are set up that way. Or just don't accept the work.

Funny, I had a small job for my fiber the other day. Guy dropped it off Friday afternoon, and said, no hurry. I though, Sure, you'll be calling Monday morning to pick up.
So having time, I ran it Saturday. Called him Monday afternoon, oh, sure I'll pick up Tuesday afternoon, really wasn't any hurry. Surprised me!.

Kev Williams
04-29-2017, 4:26 PM
"I need some of your work" -- I'm just about ready to take that offer!

-- the beginning of last month one of my ski lift mfr's ordered 49 operator panels, which I build from scratch. They only ordered like 60 panels all of last year. I'm about half done with this current order, still waiting my sheet metal shop to finish up my aluminum needed to finish it. I typed my thread above what, 2 hours ago? -- and I just opened a new email from yesterday, turns out it's an order for 44 more operator panels. And these panels are only part of the overall jobs, most panels have plastic legend plates that need engraved, every chair lift tower has a warning sign, every operator house has one or more ID/specification labels, every lift chair has a logo plate, etc...

That's just one customer, and one of two ski-lift mfr customers. The other is Skytrac, which I featured in the 'lots of Cermark' thread. They make the panels thankfully, but those of you who use Cermark, calculate the time it takes to engrave 50% of the surface of a 24" x 28" plate--even though I don't make the plates, each plate takes more working time than scratch-building the aluminum plates...

that's 2 customers... and today, Saturday, speaking of jumping thru hoops, I'm working on these two plus about a dozen other customer's jobs..cowbells, crane simulator operator plates, winch cable guides, stainless radiator cover, liquid dynamite mining truck labels and various machined fiberglass boxes, several gun customer jobs, about 5 customer's worth of SS ID plate jobs, brass badges--- not so much because they're Monday-rush orders, but simply because they're ORDERS, and have more than this many jobs waiting behind these jobs.

And all of these jobs are MY jobs. My BIL that I mention frequently, he does work for about 5-6 other regular customers, mostly button or Rowmark work, just so I don't have to. The wife paints, but doesn't engrave. That's the workforce.

My hoop is a tunnel I can't seem to find the end of! The long hours are getting to me, but it beats the alternative :D

I just wish everyone could be so busy :)

John Lifer
04-30-2017, 11:56 AM
Saw last month that one of the ski resorts was expecting to stay open into July. Don't know if that is still true, but I expect that you might keep making panels for a while this year. Well, it is GOOD to complain of the work, much better to have too much than not enough! Keep at it! You do have 168 hours a week to work on things........:)

John Kleiber
04-30-2017, 1:53 PM
Last week for me was not much better. I did a bid to logo mark RTIC cups which where coated, one set of 30 black and another set of 30 white. I did the artwork, tested timing and showed them examples. I thought it was a done deal, but no, I guess they found someone else. I don't think people really realize what a pain some pre coated cups can be. I once did an Ozark that I swear was coated with the equivalent of truck bed liner. They also don't realize that some colors take longer and require additional labor to properly clean.

When you have cups taking 15.5 to 16.5 minutes to laser, not too mention cleaning and reboxing... its a lot of time. In a perfect world, that comes out to 4 30 oz cups an hour at best... total 15 hours, 2 days. Something tells me they will be back. Whoever took the deal for any less $ will regret it.

Then, Friday before last, 200 stainless steel rings get droped of late Friday..... customers needs them by Monday, as he exited, "Have a great weekend". grrrrrrr

Lastly I had a guy come in with these wifi cow monitors for dairy farms. He had 200 pcs, oddly shaped, plastic. He said they are very expensive and they need them marked with inventory numbers. He specifically wanted an inventory # in a very small space about 5 mm tall space. Really, you expect be to mark accurately with a CO2 laser a serial in plastic, in that tiny space. To add to the issue they varied in width by a tiny amount, so I was concerned about making a fixture to hold multiple units. So I would have to make a fixture to mark them one at a time. I told him 2.50 each, setup 75.00. So these things are expensive and the customer does not want to spend 2.50 each, plus setup? I suggested an alternate method, like tags adhered with epoxy... nope had to be directly marked as per manufacturer. I did not get that deal either.

359380

I'm not sure how everyone calculates rush jobs. Mine varies depending on the job, but usually I say 75.00. Of coarse, all customers have different definitions of rush. Our turn around time is 5-7 business days. I define rush as 3 business days. Most customers NEVER hear the word "business".

I also make it a point to always say... "The 5-7 business day starts once we have your product in house and approved proof".

I don't know whats worse, cussing about deals I get that I don't charge enough or deals I don't get because they're priced right..... At the end of the day I'd say the former beats the latter.


-John

Tim Bateson
04-30-2017, 2:39 PM
Ditto Steve. lately, never a Friday goes by that someone needs something engraved for a Wedding the next day. Doesn't happen in my shop. Their jobs don't pay enough for me to break my ass, so I turn them away. However... last Wednesday I did get a call for some government type work that was urgent - Had to be ready by Friday night. I took 2 days off my day job to make just over $7k.

Scott Shepherd
04-30-2017, 2:41 PM
I've about had my limit of "I HAVE to have this no later than Monday morning" and the items sitting until Friday before they pick them up. I don't mind hard work. I also am glad to stay late and work long hours to help you out of your crisis. However, I'm about done getting lied to on due dates. If you were honest with me, I wouldn't have had to give up my free time and you would have still gotten your parts on time.

We had a fellow sign shop owner we did business with for about 8 years. He would famously call me at 4:00 and need 6-8 hours of work by the following morning. He would tell me how critical it was and how he really needed my help. I'd step up and work until it was done, he'd pick it up on the way to work the next morning and everything was good. Over the last two years, he started telling me how hot things were, then not coming to get it when he said he needed it. Last time he did that, I worked until 1:00am and he was a no show the next morning. I called him. No answer. I texted him, he texted back, said he'd be there shortly. Never showed up. This went on for days. I finally sent him a message and told him if he didn't pick them up that day, they'd be in the dumpster. Don't disrespect my time by making me work until 1am and then not showing up to pick up your job that you "had to have".

He is the only person I every lost my patience with on that stuff, but he did show up and picked it up and continued to use our services, however, next time he said he needed something in a hurry, I told him we couldn't meet his deadline.

Mel Fulks
04-30-2017, 3:28 PM
Hello Scott. Believe it or not I thought to myself "that sounds like everything in Richmond" before I noticed the name! I have reccommended the policy of refusing to jump through the hoops anymore for someone who does not keep to their asked for ready time. Have seen it work. This is an old money town ,when they graciously say "no hurry" they mean you don't have to run over to the machine until they are out of sight. They don't like to mistreat their employees!

John Lifer
04-30-2017, 3:29 PM
There are customers you MUST fire. It can be for several reasons, your cost vs what customer is willing to pay, unrealistic timeframes that you meet and then they don't need that fast. etc. I've dealt with many in the past. Most famously, a customer my prior boss just thought he had to have their business. We supplied them millions over a couple of years at a LOSS. Yes their volume helped keep our material price down for everything else, but we LOST money on every part we made. I would have fired them immediately, but no, we had to have them... Till we went bankrupt and closed. Gee, wonder why!
Scott, where else is your guy going to go and get things done over a weekend? He may have other shops that he can try, but I'll be most will laugh at him and his timeframe.

Mark Taylor2
04-30-2017, 3:58 PM
I don't do commercial work but in the past I did (wasn't laser work). I always quoted three things.... price, delivery date, and the drop dead date for the time for delivery of any materials, plans, etc. and then stick with that policy. No exceptions. Yes, I lost jobs but didn't need them anyway.

I do believe that businesses are seeing things from customers spoiled by the likes of Amazon, etc. The web world... order something and it magically shows up quickly. I was at a car repair shop recently and the young lad customer couldn't get it through his head that this wasn't a "web order". That shops don't keep a supply of parts (an engine in this case) for every car and that it could be swapped out a day. The owner finally told him "here's my price and finish date... take it or leave it.

Kev Williams
04-30-2017, 4:29 PM
The other day while typing into Frontpage2000 "sorry, I can no longer take on award, trophy, plaque or most personalization jobs" for my webpage, the phone rings...

"Hi! I'm wondering what you'd charge to engrave plates for some awards we're having made up?"

== what kind of plates, plastic, metal, size?

"Oh, regular sized, and metal."

== [groan]== ok, like brass, 1" x 3"--

"yes, brass would be good, and they need to be 1" x 6".

==['regular size', lol]== Ok, that sounds easy enough--

"so how much to engrave them if I bring the plates in once I find some?"

== I can make the plates, that's no problem...

"Oh, great! Well everyone else wants like $7.50 each, and..."

=== is that just for the engraving?

"umm, that's with the plate..."

==[so why were you going to bring me plates if everyone else quoted WITH plates? hmm]== well, $7.50 is about right for that size-

"Oh, well, that was a little more than I was hoping to spend".

==[of course it is]== Ok, so how many plates do you need?

"There will be 16 plates."

== Ok, let me see, [calculator time], I'll do all 16 for $75, that's just under $5 each.

"Ok, that should work, I think the others will go for that."

== It's a fair price, yeah...

"OK then, so I'll have 2 names at the end of month, and 2 more names at the end of May......... "

AAAGGGHHHH!!!!! http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/nilly.gif http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/banghead.gif http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/pullinghair.gifhttp://www.engraver1.com/gifs/drinking.gif

Mel Fulks
04-30-2017, 5:50 PM
Kev, tell them you will rent them the equipment to do it. Then keep a couple of of those hand held anti theft name buzzer things on hand with some calligraphy books.

Scott Shepherd
04-30-2017, 8:42 PM
About a month ago, on a Saturday, the phone rang. I didn't answer it because we were technically closed. Three of us were there working on a rush job. The last person in didn't lock the door. We heard the alarm chime go off, meaning someone came in. The other two people went up front to talk to them. They wanted 2 champagne glasses, a cake slicer, and a knife for a wedding. We priced it out and they left, saying they would bring the stuff in the following week.

First, who calls, gets an answering machine, then gets in the car and drives there? (Not me!)

The guy brings in the stuff and says "No hurry, the wedding isn't until May 2018". I typed that right. 2018.

She starts calling 2 days later wanting to know when they can pick them up. She didn't give up. She wouldn't stop calling.

Seriously? 13 months before your wedding and you HAVE to have these by Friday?

John Lifer
04-30-2017, 9:15 PM
I managed a plasma donation center for over 10 years. We opened late on Mondays for over 7 years. Sign on door, times on website where the donor made their appointments. On the phone message. We still had people call constantly from 7am to 11am when we opened. And if you happened to answer it, it was invariably a current donor who knew our hours. And they would show up at the door! People are strange

Mike Lysov
04-30-2017, 10:39 PM
Seriously?

Last Friday afternoon, a customer leaves 10 cases of product at our back door without us knowing. Someone went to take the trash out and couldn't open the door. I came in Saturday to an email about it with the file. Needs them by Tuesday. I look at the items and the files. It's 43 hours of work. No notice, no nothing, just drop them off and email.

Had a guy come in yesterday, had items he wanted engraved. Keeping in mind, this is Friday. He said "I need them no later than Tuesday". I had to laugh inside as he walked out the door and said "Have a nice weekend". I thought to myself "What weekend? I'll be working on your items to get them to you by Tuesday".

In 10 years, I've never seen it like this.

Scott, you seem to be too kind for doing such orders.I would not if I had other orders to do.

For all my 9 years being in this business and every time somebody came saying " I need it tomorrow, please help me" via email I was regretting trying to help them every single time at the end.


I spent a significant amount of time replying to their emails, making proofs and pushing normal customers to the end of the queue and that's only to see these rush customers disappear. I cannot even recall a single time when such a rush customer actually placed their order. And that's happened to me 20-30 times over 9 years.

John Kleiber
04-30-2017, 11:06 PM
No good deed goes unpunished.

Kev Williams
05-01-2017, 1:18 AM
I can safely say that much of the reason I have the clientele I have, is because I've always done my best to get jobs finished on time, no matter the time frame.

But there's a difference between helping someone out of a genuine crisis, and being taken advantage of. I do have my share of customers that used to bring work 1 to 2 weeks in advance, and after a rush job or two, now they're ALL rush jobs. To expound on what Steve says, I just love when after doing a gottahavitnow-waste-a-good-Saturday rush job, I get call 4 months later: "we're installing these plates and we just noticed"..... You're just NOW installing them??

Ross Moshinsky
05-01-2017, 8:12 AM
The other day while typing into Frontpage2000 "sorry, I can no longer take on award, trophy, plaque or most personalization jobs" for my webpage, the phone rings...

"Hi! I'm wondering what you'd charge to engrave plates for some awards we're having made up?"

== what kind of plates, plastic, metal, size?

"Oh, regular sized, and metal."

== [groan]== ok, like brass, 1" x 3"--

"yes, brass would be good, and they need to be 1" x 6".

==['regular size', lol]== Ok, that sounds easy enough--

"so how much to engrave them if I bring the plates in once I find some?"

== I can make the plates, that's no problem...

"Oh, great! Well everyone else wants like $7.50 each, and..."

=== is that just for the engraving?

"umm, that's with the plate..."

==[so why were you going to bring me plates if everyone else quoted WITH plates? hmm]== well, $7.50 is about right for that size-

"Oh, well, that was a little more than I was hoping to spend".

==[of course it is]== Ok, so how many plates do you need?

"There will be 16 plates."

== Ok, let me see, [calculator time], I'll do all 16 for $75, that's just under $5 each.

"Ok, that should work, I think the others will go for that."

== It's a fair price, yeah...

"OK then, so I'll have 2 names at the end of month, and 2 more names at the end of May......... "

AAAGGGHHHH!!!!! http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/nilly.gif http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/banghead.gif http://www.engraver1.com/gifs/pullinghair.gifhttp://www.engraver1.com/gifs/drinking.gif





Simply put, your pricing is too cheap. under $5 for a 1x6 gold satin brass plate is too cheap. For laser work, that's fine. For engraved brass, it's way under.

The issue is, everyone misquoted them. Trophy plate = "flexibrass" or sublimated aluminum (some people will also diamond drag aluminum with a 1 line letter).

Ross Moshinsky
05-01-2017, 8:15 AM
About a month ago, on a Saturday, the phone rang. I didn't answer it because we were technically closed. Three of us were there working on a rush job. The last person in didn't lock the door. We heard the alarm chime go off, meaning someone came in. The other two people went up front to talk to them. They wanted 2 champagne glasses, a cake slicer, and a knife for a wedding. We priced it out and they left, saying they would bring the stuff in the following week.

First, who calls, gets an answering machine, then gets in the car and drives there? (Not me!)

The guy brings in the stuff and says "No hurry, the wedding isn't until May 2018". I typed that right. 2018.

She starts calling 2 days later wanting to know when they can pick them up. She didn't give up. She wouldn't stop calling.

Seriously? 13 months before your wedding and you HAVE to have these by Friday?


Just out of curiosity, why not setup pickup dates when taking the order? On my little order sheet I have three dates. Date sold, date pickup, date of event. The first question I ask them is when is their event date. It immediately puts things into perspective for them. Then we work on an actual pickup date.

Scott Shepherd
05-01-2017, 8:33 AM
Scott, you seem to be too kind for doing such orders.I would not if I had other orders to do.

For all my 9 years being in this business and every time somebody came saying " I need it tomorrow, please help me" via email I was regretting trying to help them every single time at the end.


I spent a significant amount of time replying to their emails, making proofs and pushing normal customers to the end of the queue and that's only to see these rush customers disappear. I cannot even recall a single time when such a rush customer actually placed their order. And that's happened to me 20-30 times over 9 years.

Yes, I do try and help everyone, and I am quite grateful for our customers and their business. One of my faults is I try to help everyone, and some times you fail when trying to do that. I used to believe "You never know about that guy who's ordering 1 name tag, his wife or family member might have the keys to the Holy Grail of work". Yeah, I don't believe that any more :)



I can safely say that much of the reason I have the clientele I have, is because I've always done my best to get jobs finished on time, no matter the time frame.

But there's a difference between helping someone out of a genuine crisis, and being taken advantage of. I do have my share of customers that used to bring work 1 to 2 weeks in advance, and after a rush job or two, now they're ALL rush jobs. To expound on what Steve says, I just love when after doing a gottahavitnow-waste-a-good-Saturday rush job, I get call 4 months later: "we're installing these plates and we just noticed"..... You're just NOW installing them??

Couldn't agree more Kev. Make no mistake, this isn't a "my customers are horrible" thread, it's just an observation after 10 years of changes I'm seeing in the business. We deal with the changes accordingly, but in the process of figuring out how to deal with them properly (and profitably), it means we examine what's happening and make smarter decisions on what we accept and at what cost.



Just out of curiosity, why not setup pickup dates when taking the order? On my little order sheet I have three dates. Date sold, date pickup, date of event. The first question I ask them is when is their event date. It immediately puts things into perspective for them. Then we work on an actual pickup date.

They were told it would take 7-10 days once they approved the artwork, which would take a couple of days to get to them (it was sent the day after they dropped the items off).


There is a local artist who found us and he called one day and asked if we could do some work for him. I told him we could, and he said "Great, what time do you close". I said "5:00". He said he'd be here by 5:00. He got here at 4:58, dropped off the project, then called at 7:45 the next morning and asked if we had gotten to it yet :D

Mel Fulks
05-01-2017, 12:09 PM
I'm not an engraver. But the worst customers are often wealthy deadbeats who seldom pay agreed price for anything. Our worst was a woman who had a large addition built on to an existing fine home. Even after not paying for stuff they kept trying to buy more stuff!! My boss was afraid of her! I finally called her husband and told him that if he did not get her under control I would have numerous crank calls made daily to his office and show up there and educate his clients. That worked. He was some type of financial adviser to people who needed it because they paid their bills.
She demanded a painter inconveniently do some exterior painting on short notice because she was having a party. He complied and was told he would not be paid because "bugs were stuck on it". She affected a kind slightly ditzy persona
in all negotiations. But was fierce and firm in telling all they would not get paid. I'm sure there are more demons out there.

Ted Calver
05-01-2017, 12:10 PM
At the civil engineering firm I retired from we would cost out a project as if it were going into our normal production schedule i.e wait it's turn in the line up. If the client needed something big ASAP we added a 25% 'quick turn surcharge' and informed the client of the extra cost involved in jumping the line. Some took their project elsewhere, some gladly paid the extra and some decided they were happy to wait in line. It worked for us.

Keith Outten
05-01-2017, 12:29 PM
After hours work and weekends should be billed at time and a half. Tell your customers that your current production work is one or more weeks out and their job will be done at the end of the current schedule. If they want to approve overtime for a rush job you will be glad to accommodate their schedule the best you can. Note that I would never go to work on a Saturday morning for a two hour job....it can wait until after 5 pm on Monday.

Kev Williams
05-01-2017, 11:01 PM
Simply put, your pricing is too cheap. under $5 for a 1x6 gold satin brass plate is too cheap. For laser work, that's fine...
I should've clarified, as I refer to everything as "engraving" ;) ... this would be black-over-'brass' lasersteel, half the price of Rowmark and the job itself is 'full auto', as easy as it gets :)

John Kleiber
05-02-2017, 8:48 AM
Literally a couple days prior to this thread being posted and while it progressed through the weekend the following happened;

Situation 1: Customer comes in Wednesday with small engraving job and wants it by Friday. I say, I can have it ready for you on Monday. Customer agrees and says Monday is good. I worked during the weekend to complete the job, emailed customer first thing Monday job was ready.... customer never showed.

Situation 2: Customer emails he has "URGENT" need for stainless steel sign on Thursday afternoon. I email back with price and that I can have sign ready first thing Tuesday morning. I get email on Friday, that would be ok along with notification to another employee to get things rolling. Never heard from employee on Friday. Sent email on Monday morning requesting official go ahead or PO to have job ready Tuesday. Never heard from them, just crickets....

Some things never change do they. Isn't life great!

TAMI WILSON
05-02-2017, 9:35 AM
My husband refers to it as "The Vending Machine Mentality" All i have to do is stick a quarter in and it comes out. They don't think about the time and energy that goes into making it.
I have simply said to a couple people. Sorry can't do it. next time they were a little more considerate.

Scott Shepherd
05-02-2017, 10:53 AM
Had a new customer come in, first time we've ever done stuff for them. Commercial client, large company. He comes to pick the stainless plates up, says "They look great! My boss wanted me to look at your machine and take some photos of it and find out who made it because we are going to get one".

Yeah....no thanks. I'm not going to help you take my work away. You want to get a laser, then do what everyone else does, research, buy, and put years of experience in. Want me to give you that info for free? No thanks.

Doug Fisher
05-02-2017, 2:30 PM
Scott, how did you handle breaking the news to the guy that you wouldn't be showing him your machine?

John C Cox
05-02-2017, 2:51 PM
To put things into perspective.... 10 years ago - we were a few months away from the cusp of a worldwide financial meltdown that bankrupted probably 60% of small businesses.

So... Yeah.. Things HAVE changed a LOT since then. Folks are used to small operators having plenty of time to get stuff done right away.. Work through weekends.. Give stuff away... Jump through hoops - just to get the work... Not to mention guys who are pro's now were probably kicking around a hobby laser in your spare time from your real day job right before it went under..

Now... Not so much. The weak were weeded out... Operations were scaled back.. Businesses closed.. And now things have picked up...

Me personally... I understand not wanting to turn away business.... Get that... But its also fair to the customers to make lead times and expected delivery times clear... If its business to business - then its important to be clear about "Ex-PO"... Same for customer supplied material.... My fab time STARTS after you deliver material.

The next thing is cost structure. If you are already full up - Charge extra for rush jobs.... And if necessary - ask for payment up front for rush jobs.. That way - you bust your hump to get it done over night and they wait till Friday to pick it up - well... Thats fine.. They paid you double + rush setup fees...

Another one I saw from a vendor who got tired of being swamped by "wheres my stuff" calls every 4 hours.... Every time you call before the quoted delivery date and we have to go get your stuff to look at it - it goes to the back of the line... Start over... Their backlog was 6 weeks... That stopped most of the serial botherers...

And last thing... Maybe its time to consider hiring an employee or two... Thats a way to get some semblance of your life back...

Scott Shepherd
05-02-2017, 3:10 PM
Scott, how did you handle breaking the news to the guy that you wouldn't be showing him your machine?

Told him he couldn't go back into the shop because we have work out that we have signed non-disclosure agreements on, which was true. Then I told him it was a very expensive business to get into just to mark part numbers, so he should let us take a look at their needs and see if we could come up with a better solution for them then buying their own machine.


And last thing... Maybe its time to consider hiring an employee or two... Thats a way to get some semblance of your life back...

Already got that. Last year, we changed some of our business beliefs and stopped trying to do everything that walked in the door and started being more selective about the right work for us and the right customers for us to partner with. We power through it all, not a big deal, it's just an observation about how much things have changed. It's business, we have to adapt to the market, so we work through it all and implement things that work for us and our business.

Kev Williams
05-02-2017, 10:36 PM
This may be the neverending thread ;)

Last Friday I get a call from a guy in Florida, needs buttons engraved (may have mentioned that above already), parts arrived Sat.overnight, I did them yesterday, and got them to Fedex 2 minutes before the truck was to leave. This meant everything I had to mail yesterday didn't get mailed so I could beat HIS deadline. So today he calls me, 3pm his time..."did you get those buttons sent?" --sure did, barely. "Where did you send them??" -- to the address in your emails... "what address was that??" -- [repeat the address] -- "oh, I emailed you from my phone and that still sends out my old address." *note*: the package he sent me was sent by some courier service, so his address wasn't on the shipping label either. Sucks not to be a mind reader...

yesterday I get an email: "How busy are you this weekend?" -- not this WEEK, but weekEND... "We're having 300 (things) shipped to you Wednesday, we need 100 Friday to ship to Canada, and the rest we need Monday. I'll get the art to you tomorrow." (how did Steve start this thread?) ;)

Then I get an email from their competitor (I just love working both ends)- We have 40 Ebby Ranes (the $1000 each suitcases) and 40 backpacks, we'll drop off 20 of each Wednesday or Thursday, we really need them Monday...

I'm thinking of just closing up shop on Tuesdays and Wednesdays since Monday seems to be everyone's due date these days...

vic casware
05-02-2017, 11:20 PM
I don't work weekends, after 33 years at this i have more fun things to do but i can feel
that might come to an end soon, I quoted a job 2 weeks ago for 600 Stainless items
and 600 wood items, total time for my Fusion just over 200 hours or about 25 days
Now, on the quote i said ''I need 28 days to complete this job''.
well here we are May 3rd and it's due for installation on June 4th
now let me count, that's 21 working days from now and the job hasn't even
been accepted yet never mind the client having the Steel and wood cut and sent to me.
I feel a lot of nights and weekends coming on. :confused:

Jeff Body
05-02-2017, 11:27 PM
This may be the neverending thread ;)

Last Friday I get a call from a guy in Florida, needs buttons engraved (may have mentioned that above already), parts arrived Sat.overnight, I did them yesterday, and got them to Fedex 2 minutes before the truck was to leave. This meant everything I had to mail yesterday didn't get mailed so I could beat HIS deadline. So today he calls me, 3pm his time..."did you get those buttons sent?" --sure did, barely. "Where did you send them??" -- to the address in your emails... "what address was that??" -- [repeat the address] -- "oh, I emailed you from my phone and that still sends out my old address." *note*: the package he sent me was sent by some courier service, so his address wasn't on the shipping label either. Sucks not to be a mind reader...

yesterday I get an email: "How busy are you this weekend?" -- not this WEEK, but weekEND... "We're having 300 (things) shipped to you Wednesday, we need 100 Friday to ship to Canada, and the rest we need Monday. I'll get the art to you tomorrow." (how did Steve start this thread?) ;)

Then I get an email from their competitor (I just love working both ends)- We have 40 Ebby Ranes (the $1000 each suitcases) and 40 backpacks, we'll drop off 20 of each Wednesday or Thursday, we really need them Monday...

I'm thinking of just closing up shop on Tuesdays and Wednesdays since Monday seems to be everyone's due date these days...

Honestly sounds like you get taken advantage of alot.
I couldn't work like that. You should be treated with more respect.

John Lifer
05-03-2017, 7:03 AM
No, the problem is that they KNOW you guys will work over the weekend! It is just another work day for you, but not for them. The correct answer is, I'm booked, I'll have them for you Tuesday and Wednesday......... Or alternatively, my weekend rate is now double weekday rates. Not as palatable to them I expect, but in 99% of the cases, a day or for that matter a week isn't the end of the world. I enjoy the reading, but it kinda stinks to be working 7 days a week. Been there and done it.

Scott Shepherd
05-03-2017, 8:22 AM
yesterday I get an email: "How busy are you this weekend?"

Depends. How much money you got? :D

Rush charges don't seem to phase anyone we've quoted for rush work. I'm thinking our "rush fee" needs to be higher ;)

Bill George
05-03-2017, 8:43 AM
Ok I admit I do not do my business full time, but I came from skilled trade union shop background. I am not cheap, sometimes I think I charge too much. But you guys need to post prices and times, for rush jobs charge until you feel good. Call it a fuel surcharge or whatever but mark it up. IF someone wants to buy a laser and wants to see yours, no way.

Scott Shepherd
05-03-2017, 10:15 AM
Ok I admit I do not do my business full time, but I came from skilled trade union shop background. I am not cheap, sometimes I think I charge too much. But you guys need to post prices and times, for rush jobs charge until you feel good. Call it a fuel surcharge or whatever but mark it up. IF someone wants to buy a laser and wants to see yours, no way.

People aren't coming to us because we are too cheap and don't post prices, they are coming to us because there's no other option. The majority of people aren't asking for prices, they just need it done, and done now. They pay for it, that's not the issue. It's easy to say "Well, charge a 100% more for a rush job to work the weekend". Okay, well, when you do that, and you still get the work, it still means you have to work the weekend. This last year, I cut my weekend work done drastically.

At this point, if you have a wedding or you need something for an event, and it's tomorrow or the next day, then we are generally declining them. However, if you are a business and you have a $3,000 job that needs to done in 2 days, then we're happy to help you.

Bill George
05-03-2017, 11:00 AM
And the problem is Scott, its darn hard to find good help in todays world. I am lucky both my sons are employed well but they worked for the knowledge they have, same as you and me. Today the kids coming out of HS think the world owes them and learning a trade is below their status. They would rather work at a low wage, clean job than a job where they need to think and get their hands dirty. Plus, I can use my Cell to update my Facebook on the job? Because If I can't I will just keep living in my moms basement.

Scott Shepherd
05-03-2017, 11:03 AM
And the problem is Scott, its darn hard to find good help in todays world. I am lucky both my sons are employed well but they worked for the knowledge they have, same as you and me. Today the kids coming out of HS think the world owes them and learning a trade is below their status. They would rather work at a low wage, clean job than a job where they need to think and get their hands dirty. Plus, I can use my Cell to update my Facebook on the job? Because If I can't I will just keep living in my moms basement.

Amen to that!

Mike Audleman
05-03-2017, 12:37 PM
This issue has nothing to do with your business of marking, cutting, engraving, etc. Its a widespread issue across virtually every sector of business I have seen (and I see a lot as a web dev). Your experiences are simply the tip of the iceberg.

There are two sources for this type of mentality that I have seen.

1. Snowflakes being pandered to in colleges by their helicopter parents and the self centered college environments. They want it now, so they get it, because everyone in their tiny sphere says they should have it. Kids want it now so their parents buy it. Unfortunately these people are now out in the the real world and expect the same to happen there. They want it now, they want their participation medal and they are simply focused on their naive take on the big picture. They were raised on the internet of "I want it now so I download it now." on-demand everything. I have already had 6 job interviews this year where these "adults" (very loose term) have had their parents come with them to the job interview expecting to sit in on it. The first thing I tell them is "I am only hiring one person. I don't need to interview your mother{father}." Invariably the parent responds something along the lines of "I am only here to help him{her} if they have questions." and I counter with "I am only hiring one person, you won't be here to help them do their job so you don't need to be here to help him{her} get it. If your son{daughter} can't get the job without your help, they clearly aren't capable of doing the job without your help either so I don't need to interview either of you.". Four left. The other two AFAIK are still looking for a job but they are doing it elsewhere. None of them were prepared for the real world.

2. Cheap china stuff. People think because they can get a $50 blueray player that every blueray player should only cost $50. Same with things lots of yall do. People can get cheap china stuff so they expect you to produce the same price point here and they don't give a darn about your time, experience or skills. And much of it on-demand at etailers like ebay and amazon. Cheap. Now. Perfect for generation "Me".

Combine the two and you get snowflakes who insist on it now, parents who gave it to them and have rooms full of made in china cheep stuff. So they expect everyone else to cater to their demands, do it now and do it cheap.

Unfortunately, I don't really see an end to this trend. Its only going to get worse as more and more of these sorts of people ascend within companies and start becoming controlling aspects within those companies. All I know for sure is, they won't be doing it here :)

John Lifer
05-03-2017, 1:29 PM
Whew! Bill, Scott and then Mike made a 90 degree turn! But I agree more than 100%! I learned to work with my hands growing up. I wasn't ALLOWED to sit on my can and lay around on the weekends. If I didn't have a paying job, I helped family work. Sounds like a lot of you did the same. Yep, I pandered my daughter, but she's learning! Got her first degree, which between scholarships and me, almost 100% paid for. But after getting it, and not wanting to get married, she found out it wasn't really worth much. So she went back to get a degree that would provide a true job and career. Just finishing up and has good job lined up already pays well, will make average of $25+ an hour. One of her close friends, quit a decent job at a credit union because they kept pressuring her to move up. Sharp mind, could have been branch manager in a year if she had 'wanted' to. No, work for $8.65 at local daycare! WTH! And her livein works at Chucky the Cheese as a technician making a dollar more than that. What are these 'adults' thinking? And they are all over 25!

Bill George
05-03-2017, 1:36 PM
The really funny thing, and this is my last post on this. I taught the HVAC/R program (12 years) at a community college near me, and it was pretty successful at placing good student graduates with good jobs. A relative of mine, out of high school for several years and was unable to find the job he wanted. I told him we had openings in our program for this fall and he could sign up now. Also pointed out that I made in the real world 2x what either one of his college educated parents made, perhaps more. But he said that's different, meaning I had to work with both my hands and my brain.... he wanted no part of hard dirty work. Right now at age 22 he is working for $9 an hour... at a fast serve restaurant.

Jeff Body
05-03-2017, 2:02 PM
People aren't coming to us because we are too cheap and don't post prices, they are coming to us because there's no other option. The majority of people aren't asking for prices, they just need it done, and done now. They pay for it, that's not the issue. It's easy to say "Well, charge a 100% more for a rush job to work the weekend". Okay, well, when you do that, and you still get the work, it still means you have to work the weekend. This last year, I cut my weekend work done drastically.

At this point, if you have a wedding or you need something for an event, and it's tomorrow or the next day, then we are generally declining them. However, if you are a business and you have a $3,000 job that needs to done in 2 days, then we're happy to help you.


I agree you'll still be working the weekend but your most valuable time that should be spent with family and taking care of yourself will be compensated alittle more.

Also I see it all the time. Money Talks........ Big businesses will not change until it hurts them in their pocket book. Or in my field of work, things don't change until someone dies. They don't give a crap about you or your time. BUT when they go to budget for the next year and see their current year budget took a big hit because of rush charges they will want to make some changes. They will review the invoices and see they paid alot in rush charges.
That's when they'll change. It doesn't happen overnight.

Mike Audleman
05-03-2017, 3:03 PM
The really funny thing, and this is my last post on this. I taught the HVAC/R program (12 years) at a community college near me, and it was pretty successful at placing good student graduates with good jobs. A relative of mine, out of high school for several years and was unable to find the job he wanted. I told him we had openings in our program for this fall and he could sign up now. Also pointed out that I made in the real world 2x what either one of his college educated parents made, perhaps more. But he said that's different, meaning I had to work with both my hands and my brain.... he wanted no part of hard dirty work. Right now at age 22 he is working for $9 an hour... at a fast serve restaurant.


Sigh. All too common these days Bill. I can't tell you how many simply would rather work for McD than learn something and go get a real job. One that can pay the bills for the things they don't know they need. Yet. And unfortunately by the time they realize they need those things, its too late and nobody is gonna hire a 30-something with no real experience and no real education. You pointed out prime opportunity to him Bill, he chose to walk away from it. Bout all you can do is watch him walk.

I have worked manual work. Dad made me. I didn't get a chance to sit on my duff as a kid. And I have had manual work jobs doing marine repair and other types of hands on stuff and I am not afraid of it. However, today I have a desk job programming and SQL. I prefer the desk job sometimes. But I am not afraid of picking up a hammer or shovel to get something done but I know I will pay for it later in meds and back pain (degenerative arthritis in my lower back) but I would rather do it myself than pay someone to do it. Just how I am I guess.

Kev Williams
05-03-2017, 11:32 PM
This issue has nothing to do with your business of marking, cutting, engraving, etc. Its a widespread issue across virtually every sector of business I have seen (and I see a lot as a web dev). Your experiences are simply the tip of the iceberg.

There are two sources for this type of mentality that I have seen.

1. Snowflakes being pandered to in colleges by their helicopter parents and the self centered college environments....

2. Cheap china stuff. People think because they can get a $50 blueray player that every blueray player should only cost $50...

Addendum:

3. Why should they get a job when (a) they can just live with the helicopter parents until they die, and (b) any day now I'm gonna be an INTERNET SENSATION!
(I cringe every time I see that commercial with the girl and her ukelele...)

And boy, are these freeloaders in for a big surprise when they figure out mom & pop will need nursing care and eventually a $10,000 funeral (each?? Make that a cremation please!), there's no inheritance because they spent it supporting your lazy butt for 40 years, and Medicaid is going to take what you thought was YOUR house to pay for their nursing care because you were too busy doing nothing to learn about the 5-year lookback rule...

This is a healthy proportion of the current workforce pool, if they actually venture out into it... And people tell me I should hire some help. Methinks I'll have less stress doing it all myself... ;)

Ross Moshinsky
05-04-2017, 7:42 AM
Are people actually paying attention to the economic climate around them?

Please look at the rate of inflation relative to wages over the last 40 years. Now take a look specifically at the cost of owning a home and getting an education. Now look at the wealth distribution in the country. Then look at the job availability. Studies have been conducted. Many. The results are that this generation is generally no different than any of the previous.


The really funny thing, and this is my last post on this. I taught the HVAC/R program (12 years) at a community college near me, and it was pretty successful at placing good student graduates with good jobs. A relative of mine, out of high school for several years and was unable to find the job he wanted. I told him we had openings in our program for this fall and he could sign up now. Also pointed out that I made in the real world 2x what either one of his college educated parents made, perhaps more. But he said that's different, meaning I had to work with both my hands and my brain.... he wanted no part of hard dirty work. Right now at age 22 he is working for $9 an hour... at a fast serve restaurant.

By the way, this is called anecdotal evidence. I'm going to guess your program more or less filled up every semester. This means that many many young individuals used your program to get placed in a good middle class job which required hard work. So while your relative chose a different route, some other father can tell the story how his son or daughter is working hard as an HVAC tech.

I'm baffled by the idea that people seem to forget that there have always been waiters and people working in the restaurant world. It's nothing new. If he didn't work there, someone else would. Just like if he isn't an HVAC tech, someone else will be. This same exact discussion could have occurred 20 or 30 years ago. This is not unique to this or any generation.

Bill George
05-04-2017, 7:44 AM
The bigger issue is Mom and Dad enabling the behavior. Plus these kids have no intentions of getting a job, let alone a well paying one that will allow them to retire, let alone supporting the old folks. God help us if we get into another land based war and need the draft for solders.

PS Ross todays HVAC Tech the work is more brains than really hard work, more skills needed than flipping a burger. Ever wonder how those large buildings and sky scrapers get cooled and heated? Our program was a two year one covering CAD drafting and computer controls for HVAC systems. The new stuff is all circuit boards and computer linked, in addition to basics. The Union program is 4 years of on the job and classroom work, my students did get a 1 year credit in that process.

Ross Moshinsky
05-04-2017, 8:01 AM
The bigger issue is Mom and Dad enabling the behavior. Plus these kids have no intentions of getting a job, let alone a well paying one that will allow them to retire, let alone supporting the old folks. God help us if we get into another land based war and need the draft for solders.

You realize none of that is true, right? Again, actually look into it and see. A plethora of studies have examined exactly that you're claiming. They've all come back more or less the same. The current generation of 18-25 year old individuals is generally no different than the generation before and the generation before and the generation before.

Now let's talk real facts:

359542

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/08/daily-chart-20
http://www.epi.org/nominal-wage-tracker/

So the cost of college has increased roughly 250%, housing prices have continued to rise in most of the country, rent prices continue to rise, banks won't lend money after 2007, the 1% hold more wealth than they've ever had (by quite a bit), wages haven't come close to keeping up with all of these trends, and we struggle with creating jobs.

All of the data is available to figure out what's going on. Are you interested in the facts or anecdotal evidence?

Scott Shepherd
05-04-2017, 9:09 AM
Focus people, focus :) No need to get into generational issues for this topic.

vic casware
05-04-2017, 6:12 PM
another thing to look at is the possibility of the 2 billion less jobs by 2030 due to technology
then what will the next Generation do?

Matt McCoy
05-04-2017, 7:50 PM
another thing to look at is the possibility of the 2 billion less jobs by 2030 due to technology
then what will the next Generation do?

Design, program, service, and operate that technology (hopefully).

Bert Kemp
05-04-2017, 9:56 PM
My daughter and her boyfriend of 20+years both work in a restaurant, she is head cook and MGR and he is a waiter. He actually makes more money then she does but she does ok at $900 a week but he makes around 1200 a week waiting tables. So don't knock the restaurant workers, Granted you won't make that at macducks:rolleyes:
Are people actually paying attention to the economic climate around them?

Please look at the rate of inflation relative to wages over the last 40 years. Now take a look specifically at the cost of owning a home and getting an education. Now look at the wealth distribution in the country. Then look at the job availability. Studies have been conducted. Many. The results are that this generation is generally no different than any of the previous.



By the way, this is called anecdotal evidence. I'm going to guess your program more or less filled up every semester. This means that many many young individuals used your program to get placed in a good middle class job which required hard work. So while your relative chose a different route, some other father can tell the story how his son or daughter is working hard as an HVAC tech.

I'm baffled by the idea that people seem to forget that there have always been waiters and people working in the restaurant world. It's nothing new. If he didn't work there, someone else would. Just like if he isn't an HVAC tech, someone else will be. This same exact discussion could have occurred 20 or 30 years ago. This is not unique to this or any generation.

Pieter Swart
05-16-2017, 7:03 AM
I love reading this thread.

My wife and I grew up in South Africa...currently live in South Florida.

We were the last generation to be raised before corporal punishment was abolished... other words we got whipped morning noon and night...
I would like to think this is why I have no record, am able to think for myself, have a hard manual labor type of job, but pays more than most college jobs.

Yes I did go to college, so did my wife, and today, both of us are doing stuff we did not study for...
We both grew up in families where if you wanted pocket money.... what pocket money... go get a job.

Got my first job at 13, My wife got hers at 14 she mowed lawns and washed cars, did irrigation ditches and dug out a pool by age 16...I respect my wife a lot!! )

Point is:

I think most everyone here is old school like minded people, who deserve a "Big Up". I thank you for your knowledge your contributions and your stories, I get up at 5am every morning and after my coffee, this is where I come... I can't wait to see what happened and get some new nuggets.

Thanks Guys!!

Scott Shepherd
05-16-2017, 7:56 AM
Glad this bumped to the top. I open email Monday morning to find an email from Saturday night, after 9:00, asking if we could do 18 sheets of plywood (4' x 8') sheets, special, non-stocked plywood I might add, by close of business Monday. So now we don't even get a full day to order non-stocked materials, get them, and do the labor?

Customer shows up, unannounced, on Friday afternoon with some of their product that needs laser work. I ask when they need it, and they say "Middle of next week would be fine". Cool, 3 days, I can live with that for this project. Calls Monday at lunch time to see if it was finished yet because they need them :)

Brian Leavitt
05-16-2017, 10:09 AM
We charge rush fees generally for anything needed in under a week. Most people have no problem paying them, and some realize they don't need their stuff as quick when faced with paying a rush. Then there are the ones who pay the rush and still don't pick their orders until a few days after it was "needed". I really don't understand those people.

I'll generally work with customers to fulfill any special requests they want, but I won't do it free.

I had a customer last week who wanted 50 Contigo mugs engraved with a company logo - nothing but the logo. She wanted to see a proof. "OK, well it's going to look like your logo on the side of a mug, but if you want to pay for a proof, you can get a proof...." Little did I know, at the time, what a pain this would become. First proof she decided she wanted to use a different logo; second, third, and fourth proofs she wanted it moved fractions of an inch up or down; fifth and sixth proofs she wanted to see it printed out and taped on the side of the mug at different heights; seventh proof her boss decided they had to use the original logo so proofs two through six were just a waste of my time. On the eighth proof I printed the original logo out and sent her a photo with it on the side of the mug. Along with that, I sent a note that she was going to be charged $15 for each proof sent after that, so she finally approved it. I think I took too long to institute the charge-per-proof.

Now when I send proofs to customers, there is a line stating that the first change is free. After that it's $10 per proof.

Kev Williams
05-16-2017, 10:43 AM
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Mark Taylor2
05-16-2017, 7:52 PM
I have worked manual work. Dad made me. I didn't get a chance to sit on my duff as a kid. And I have had manual work jobs doing marine repair and other types of hands on stuff and I am not afraid of it.

This reminded me of what my dad always said: The value of manual labor is that you won't want to do manual labor the rest of your life. He also had quotes about finding a career you love instead of just a job.

Bert Kemp
05-16-2017, 7:59 PM
Kev are there missing words here LOL I have 2 pictures and a lot of empty spae LOL
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Kev Williams
05-17-2017, 1:14 AM
Pics are worth a thousand words, so I just used up a thousand words worth of blank space between them. Seemed only fitting... ;)