Veritas dovetail saw cuts "slow"

[Mark Udit]

Hey guys, first real post, long time lurker. Thanks for all the good advice I've read so far!

Quick question. I have a Veritas 14TPI dovetail saw. I've had it for a bit over a year, only factory sharpened. I noticed that, regardless of technique, it takes many strokes to cut down to my baseline. I'm qualifying it as slow based on anecdotal evidence of watching guys on youtube, and the quickness in which they can cut. It seemingly takes me 20 strokes to accomplish what they can do in 3-5.

Is this a characteristic of the saw or my technique? Should I sharpen it?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[lowell holmes]

Hey guys, first real post, long time lurker. Thanks for all the good advice I've read so far!

Quick question. I have a Veritas 14TPI dovetail saw. I've had it for a bit over a year, only factory sharpened. I noticed that, regardless of technique, it takes many strokes to cut down to my baseline. I'm qualifying it as slow based on anecdotal evidence of watching guys on youtube, and the quickness in which they can cut. It seemingly takes me 20 strokes to accomplish what they can do in 3-5.

Is this a characteristic of the saw or my technique? Should I sharpen it?

I would contact L

Thanks in advance for any help.

If your saw is the one with teeth on both sides, mine is a slow cutting saw. You need a Wenzloff saw or a Lie Nielsen saw.

I have the Lie Nielsen saw. I've had it for 15 years, and it has been worth every penny I paid for it.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Mark and welcome to the Creek.

What wood and what sizes are you using?

If you live in my area I would be happy to get together and figure out if is the saw or your technique needing work.

Is this the saw you have:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=64007&cat=1,42884,68511&ap=1

A few good photos of the saw might make it possible to see if anything obvious is wrong with the saw. I do not know the manner in which Veritas saws are made but it is possible the saw plate was installed incorrectly. Such a saw might cut better on the pull than as is normal on the push.

How does your saw work crosscutting? It may have the teeth filed with a crosscut profile that doesn't work very well for rip cutting such as in dovetail work.

If you haven't successfully sharpened at least a few saws then you might want to contact Lee Valley and see if they can help.

jtk

[glenn bradley]

Howdy Mark and welcome to the Creek.

What wood and what sizes are you using?

If you live in my area I would be happy to get together and figure out if is the saw or your technique needing work.

I wish I lived near Jim. that would be a valuable and enjoyable visit :). The 14TPI is sharpened as what Lee Valley calls a rip-cut. What constitutes a good rip geometry gets some good conversations started. There are a good group of folks here who have that sort of thing well studied and experienced (I'm not one of them). I agree some snapshots would help determine the state of the saw.

[Jim Koepke]

I wish I lived near Jim. that would be a valuable and enjoyable visit :).

Thanks for the kind words Glenn. Actually one of my new friends has had trouble becoming a member on SMC due to his name being the same as a lot of other members, plus he doesn't have a computer, only a smart phone. Since he lives across the river he contacted me by phone and we have gotten together a few times since. He was having problems with using a few planes that we were able to get sorted.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hey guys, first real post, long time lurker. Thanks for all the good advice I've read so far!

Quick question. I have a Veritas 14TPI dovetail saw. I've had it for a bit over a year, only factory sharpened. I noticed that, regardless of technique, it takes many strokes to cut down to my baseline. I'm qualifying it as slow based on anecdotal evidence of watching guys on youtube, and the quickness in which they can cut. It seemingly takes me 20 strokes to accomplish what they can do in 3-5.

Is this a characteristic of the saw or my technique? Should I sharpen it?

Thanks in advance for any help.

If it takes you 20 strokes to reach the baseline, then I wonder how much of the tooth line you are using? The full length? 2"?

How long have you been using the saw (assuming also that you purchased it new)?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ken hatch]

Mark,

I have the 14 TPI dovetail saw. From eyeballing it it has a around 80 degrees of rake which isn't as aggressive as 90 degrees but it shouldn't be slow cutting. I've found the LV saws to have a little too much 'set' but that shouldn't slow as much as you have posted. Two things: eyeball your tooth line, it should be just a little less than vertical and slide your fingers along the tooth line toe to heal it should 'grab' your skin. If it doesn't the saw is dull and I'd sent it back or better sharpen it yourself.

BTW, the LV saws are as good as any, I would pay no attention to anyone that suggests you need a different brand saw, they know nothing of what they speak, all you are buying is 'bing'. One more point, the folks doing videos are using very easy to work wood, with some woods two or three strokes is all that is needed to get to the base line, others not so fast.

ken

[Megan Fitzpatrick]

I second Derek's question re length of stroke. This may not be the case here of course, but in every DT class I've taught, my most frequent refrain is, "You paid for the whole saw, so use the whole saw." New users tend to use only the middle 4"-5" of the plate instead of taking full strokes.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I'm stealing Megan's saying- "You paid for the whole saw, so use the whole saw"- I like that!!!

Welcome, Mark, and thanks for posting. Something is certainly not right if it takes you 20 strokes. You say that the saw is only factory sharpened. Do you mean it has never been sharpened since you bought it from the factory, or do you mean that you only send it back to the factory to be sharpened? If you have not sharpened it in a year plus- there's your problem, assuming you have used it a few times in that year.

A 14 TPI saw isn't going to go extremely fast, but certainly much faster than 20 strokes to do a dovetail or small tenon. You already got some good advice on tooth geometry. I suggest getting a file, checking out Paul Sellers' excellent video on sharpening saws (it's on YouTube) and give it a try. A rip saw is the easiest and best to learn on because there is only rake and no fleem- just one angle to screw up... er... I mean to get right. :-) Well, you could add slope- but don't go there. Not yet.

Best of luck.

[Simon MacGowen]

Mark,
BTW, the LV saws are as good as any, I would pay no attention to anyone that suggests you need a different brand saw, they know nothing of what they speak, all you are buying is 'bing'.
ken

The most impartial quote on buying saws.

As someone who has used most premium/luxury saws ($250 - $350 a pc) as well as the three Veritas dovetail saws since Day 1 they were released, I can echo the above statement and it's your technique (experience) that will make the difference. I don't blame those who love their brand name saws and try to pitch someone else to fall in line, brand loyalty is natural.

Without pictures, it is hard to say what may be wrong.

Simon

[Mike Brady]

As regards pictures of the saw teeth, they would have to be pretty good photos to tell what is wrong with this saw, and useless for evaluating the set of the teeth. I recommend you have the saw sharpened and set properly. Some of the LV saws I have used were hard to start in the cut and rather notchy feeling. If I had one dovetail saw, it would be dull well before a year of use. Saws are simple: spring steel and good sharpening. Everything else is bling, so a dull $250. saw is 100% pure bling. The saw in question will work great if it is sharpened.

Some of the posters here can post some saw services. I do my own. I'm not sure what the forum rules are re: recommending vendors.

[Bill McNiel]

The most impartial quote on buying saws.

As someone who has used most premium/luxury saws ($250 - $350 a pc) as well as the three Veritas dovetail saws since Day 1 they were released, I can echo the above statement and it's your technique (experience) that will make the difference. I don't blame those who love their brand name saws and try to pitch someone else to fall in line, brand loyalty is natural.

Without pictures, it is hard to say what may be wrong.

Simon

J'accord! The Veritas is a solid saw.

[lowell holmes]

Google "Dove Tail Saw Technique".

There will several videos that may be of help to you.

[Ron Bontz]

I second Derek's question re length of stroke. This may not be the case here of course, but in every DT class I've taught, my most frequent refrain is, "You paid for the whole saw, so use the whole saw." New users tend to use only the middle 4"-5" of the plate instead of taking full strokes.

+1 on stroke length and even relaxed pressure. Best wishes.

[Adam Cruea]

Make that a +2.

I had the super-fine LV DT saw. While not as glamorous as the Bad-Axe saws I have, and maybe not quite as dead-aim accurate, it was a hungry little thing that chewed up wood quickly.

[Mark Udit]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for all the suggestions. Maybe saying 20 was a bit of an exaggeration, but it definitely seems like a lot.

After reading your your comments though I realized what some of you said might be right.

I paid lose attention to what I was doing today and realized that I'm focusing so much on following my layout and keeping straight and I'm taking less than full stokes with the saw.

Thanks again for the great advice.

[John Crawford]

I have noticed that many of the youtube "speed dovetails" videos involve the instructor cutting very thin softwood (perhaps illustrating a drawer side), but resulting in their cuts only taking a few strokes of the saw. A real-life non-speed cut in harder woods might take more strokes, but I'll bet you'll be able to get it down from 20.

[Warren Weckesser]

Check out Paul Sellers cutting dovetails in oak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCYjoj6cfno

He starts cutting the tails at about 4:30. He definitely uses more than five strokes to cut those tails.

[Pete Taran]

Mark, do you have a iphone that can take a close up? The new iphone 7 can take very closeup pictures of saw teeth. If so, try it from the side and post it here so we can see it. Below is an example of my every day DT saw (and old IT of course) that I took with about 6X zoom. Those are 16 ppi teeth.

359227

[Mike Brady]

Pete, with all due respect, what knowledge can be gained from your photo? the rake angle? It looks sharp-ish? Set?...not from that viewing angle. I'm guessing the OP's saw would look pretty similar in a photo. You've sharpened hundreds of saws, and perhaps you can perceive what is needed. I've done my share of saw sharpening, but I would have to be able to at least touch one, if not use it, to have a clue as to it's condition. In my opinion, the OP needs to try a someone's saw that truly is sharp, and then determine if faulty technique is the core problem.

I find that when my dovetail saws are needing a sharpening, the cut speed decreases but the tracking stays pretty true. As far as starting the cut goes, a freshly sharpened saw can be pretty grabby until the burrs are gone. I don't recall if he said the saw was a year old or if he had used it for a year. There's a difference.

[Jim Koepke]

Pete, with all due respect, what knowledge can be gained from your photo?

It can not be determined from the picture, but if the toe is to the left, that saw will cut slow because the plate is backwards. It can be seen the teeth actually have points on them instead of flats. We can also see the saw is filed for rip cutting and not crosscutting. Finally the teeth look to be all the same height instead of willy nilly variations from poor filing.

jtk

[Pete Taran]

What I'm looking for is was it filed with a file that put a flat at the bottom of the gullet which makes the gullet less able to carry out the saw dust than one that is deeper? The shape of the teeth matter too. If the rake is relaxed to 15 degrees, that will cut much more slowly than one that is more aggressive like the picture. These are important things that can be discerned quickly from looking at a photo like the one I posted. I thought I might actually offer help to the OP, instead of endlessly speculating about what might be wrong. I'm sorry if this winds down the speculation, as fun as it might be. :)

[lowell holmes]

It can not be determined from the picture, but if the toe is to the left, that saw will cut slow because the plate is backwards. It can be seen the teeth actually have points on them instead of flats. We can also see the saw is filed for rip cutting and not crosscutting. Finally the teeth look to be all the same height instead of willy nilly variations from poor filing.

jtk

My dovetails saws are filed for rip. I have a rip tenon saw and a crosscut tenon saw.

Paul Sellers saws were all sharpened rip when I took classes from him at Homestead Heritage.

[Richard Line]

I've got that LV saw. Been using it for several years. It can cut fast enough to not be a problem. As the saw comes from LV, it has a 15 deg. rake angle. That is a more relaxed rake than many other saws, and particularly those used by the experts. The 15 deg. rake allows the saw to start easier than a steeper rake, and that is good for beginners, which I certainly was when I got my LV saw. After using it for a while (and after learning something about sharpening saws on a trash saw) I sharpened it and regained some speed. Later, with more practice/use, I changed the rake angle to 9 or 10 deg.s that sped it up some more, but it was harder to start – more learning. I've seen recommendations for 5 deg. rake angles; I'm not there.

With my saw, I've never had an issue nor concern about the amount of set, its fairly low as it comes from LV.

[Jim Koepke]

I've got that LV saw. Been using it for several years. It can cut fast enough to not be a problem. As the saw comes from LV, it has a 15 deg. rake angle. That is a more relaxed rake than many other saws, and particularly those used by the experts. The 15 deg. rake allows the saw to start easier than a steeper rake, and that is good for beginners, which I certainly was when I got my LV saw. After using it for a while (and after learning something about sharpening saws on a trash saw) I sharpened it and regained some speed. Later, with more practice/use, I changed the rake angle to 9 or 10 deg.s that sped it up some more, but it was harder to start – more learning. I've seen recommendations for 5 deg. rake angles; I'm not there.

With my saw, I've never had an issue nor concern about the amount of set, its fairly low as it comes from LV.

Good explanation of how rake angle affects the speed of cut. One of my saws is at 5º rake. It cuts fast but leaves a bit rougher finish than saws with 8 or 9º of rake.

jtk