Hand cut dovetails: A shopping list for newbies

[Josh Saul]

I really want to begin to incorporate some dovetail joinery into my woodworking bag of tricks. For the longest time I thought the best way for me to do this was to throw down $$$ for a Leigh jig. But after doing a lot of reading here and elsewhere, I'm no longer convinced that going the jig route is any easier, just different. Learning to do it by hand seems more appealing now.

What I need though is a definitive list of tools I need to get started. Saws, chisels, marking gauges - please be specific. Even include workbench setup in this. As it stands now, my workbench is more of a plywood-topped assembly table. What kind of surface and vice do I need? Thanks so much. I'm excited to start my trip down the hand tool rabbit hole.

[mike holden]

Asking for specific tools is problematic, everyone has their favorite brand.
For dovetails you need:
A way to hold the board vertically, I started with a machinist's vice but a wood vise is better
A way to mark the boards, a marking gage and a marking knife. Again, they all work.
A way to saw to the line, pick a small saw, ANY small saw. I have seen demonstrations where the dovetails were cut with a hacksaw, if it cuts wood in a straight line it will work
A way to remove waste, bevel edge chisels are sufficient, narrow enough to fit inside the cavities YOU layout. Some will add a coping saw to minimize chopping out of waste - your choice, chisel works fine
That is all you need.
Important thing is laying out the joint, then cutting to the line.
Of course that is all any joint is, layout, then cut to the line

Good luck, and let us know how things work out.
Like most, your first ones will be gappy, overcut, and not be ready for prime time, but they will be YOURS and improvement will come quickly

Best,
Mike

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Josh,

The basic way to start dovetailing is to do just that, start. To begin you will need a saw and a chisel. A fancy bench isn't required. My first dovetails were made on a Black & Decker folding Workmate 300, iirc.

To step up the game a bit a shooting board will help to get square ends on your wood. Very helpful when fitting dovetails.

A marking gauge is also handy to mark your baselines.

Chopping out the waste with a chisel is good to start. Over time you may want a fret or coping saw to remove the waste.

As for what size chisels, you need ones that will fit between your tails and pins to pare away the waste. A 1/4" pin socket can't be cut with a 1/2" chisel.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

You can do dovetails with very little equipment but certain things make it easier. I'll give you my list.

1. A marking knife. A regular pocket knife will do but I use two (a left hand and a right hand) Japanese marking knives. I like those because they are thin (to get into small areas) and are single bevel, which makes accurate marking easier.

2. A marking gauge - two are better. Technically, you don't need a marking gauge if you can hold one piece of wood against another accurately and scribe a line. A marking gauge make life easier. You can go with a beam marking gauge or a wheel marking gauge. I like the wheel marking gauges - Lee Valley, Kevin Drake and Taylor Tools make good ones at different price points.

3. A way to mark the dovetails. You can just eyeball them, or use a sliding bevel gauge or get a dovetail saddle marker. You can make a dovetail marker yourself or buy one. I've made them out of wood and brass.

4. A saw. A traditional dovetail saw is one way but for years I use a small dozuki saw to cut dovetails. I now use a western saw. Lee Valley makes a good one as does Lie Nielsen.

5. A set of dividers for laying out the dovetails. You'll find lots of uses for dividers in layout of all types.

6. A small square. I like the 4" double square. iGauging makes a good one as does PEC. Search eBay for PEC blem.

7. Chisels. Sharp.

8. A mallet. I use a round carver's mallet.

9. Pencil

10. A clamp or something to hold the wood while you chisel on it.

I'm probably forgetting something but that's all I can think of now. I have tutorials on my web site (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Tutorials) on how to do hand cut dovetails.

Mike

[lowell holmes]

You will need a bench with a woodworking vise. If that is out of the question, rig up a vise to hold the wood between wooden jaws.

A dove tail saw and a dovetail marker will be needed.
A paring chisel along with sharpening and honing stone will be needed.
A small square and marking knife will be needed.

For what it's worth, I have an old Leigh jig that has not been used in 10 years. I used it a lot until I went to a Paul Sellers class.

[Prashun Patel]

I cannot overstate the importance or the subtle nuance in this:

you need to be able to mark accurately, and saw straight.

You'll improve your results marginally with good tools (saw, chisel, marking knife, coping saw, vise). But there's no shortcutting practice.

Joinery cutting and fitting is like playing an instrument. You need to practice.

[David Eisenhauer]

Additional overstatement or subtle nuance: As already said above, cutting to the line (as close as possible to but not on the line) is a very important step. To do this, you need to securely hold the wood in a position such that you can see the line without difficulty. A wide enough vise with smooth jaw faces, possibly lined with leather or cork for a secure non-slip grip and presenting the wood at a height such that you can comfortably see and saw with an unhindered arm motion to that line. Good natural lighting and/or a decent light source coming from the correct angle is of great assistance in making that all-important cut. There are two cuts that should be as accurate as possible - the horizontal cut across the thickness of the end of the board, plus the vertical angled rip cut to form the sides of the dovetail. Positioning and then securely holding the board where you can see and saw to both lines is a big part of a successful cut, especially when starting out. If your bench is of a typical height from the floor, it may be too low to hold the board up to a better height for sawing. I elevate my boards with a portable-type vise (home made Moxon) that attaches to the top of my bench to hold the boards or some folks sit while doing the work. Crouching does not work for my older knees and that lamp positioned just so helps my older eyes.

[steven c newman]

When sawing, whether tails or pins first ( doesn't really matter which) Try to "split the lines" when you saw. make the first part as perfect as you can, as it will be the pattern for the second half of the joint. Mark those lines using that pattern...saw on the waste side, leaving the lines. Much easier to pare a little bit, than to try and add a sliver. Oh, and BTW, always mark which is the waste side of the cuts. A big old "X" will do.....since you will be removing that wood from the joint, it can be neon green, doesn't matter, as long as you can tell which is to be removed as waste.

Tools? As long as they as SHARP, and cut straight, it really doesn't matter what brand name is on the tool. This includes that pencil you use to do the layouts....sharper the better.
Fancy marking knife? I do have a hand-forged one, but have also been known to use a sharp, new blade in an ultility knife, and even a pocket knife when I can find the first two.

height of work? I will have the board up high, when I mark the lines. I then drop the height down to almost benchtop height....and sit down on my shop stool to saw, chop. and pare. hate standing bent over a bench, when I can just sit a spell..saves my knees.
Haven't found much use for a coping saw, can never get mine to cut straight enough to split the entire line. The only use I have found for them is as a rasp, doing a little cleanup.

[Josh Saul]

These replies are great, thanks everyone. What size chisels to I need to get started?

[Phil Mueller]

Chisel size really depends on the size of the space between the tails at the base line. That would be the smallest space that needs to be chopped out by a chisel. So if that space is 1/4" you need a 1/4" or smaller chisel.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Josh you have been given much great advise in this thread. I would only add the comment that when you are only doing a single drawer, single carcass, or a few at a time hand cutting is the way to go. For less than the price of a Leigh Jig you can get everything you need to dovetail by hand and I'm speaking of good quality tools. More importantly, there is move versatility in both design and execution when hand cutting. Add finally the learning curve, setups, and test pieces, and you have already used the time needed to do at least 2 hand cut joints. You will also need to relearn the Leigh Jig after not having used it for a while. Dovetail jigs are really only efficient and cost effective when doing multiples of the exact same thing.

[Pete Taran]

+++1 on learning to saw straight. It's harder than you think. When I was making the Independence Tool dovetail saws, I would go to trade shows to show off the saw and sell them to the masses. It is amazing how many people can't start a saw cut. The tendency is to put downward pressure on the blade and since the teeth in a good dovetail saw are filed rip, they would dig in like fishhooks and you wouldn't be cutting anything. I used to teach first timers to imagine that you are cutting in air with NO downward pressure and once you have a kerf started, you can apply a little pressure to move the cut along. Once you get a saw, whichever you decide, put a piece of stock end grain up and mark a bunch of lines on it and practice cutting to those lines.

Once you have your technique mastered, move on to angled lines that are similar to the slope of a dovetail. Once you've got it, it's a skill for life. I wouldn't start laying out tails on that prized bubinga before I have the skills down in pine or poplar first. It will be time well spent.

[lowell holmes]

[QUOTE=Pete Taran;2684585]+++1 on learning to saw straight. It's harder than you think. When I was making the Independence Tool dovetail saws, I would go to trade shows to show off the saw and sell them to the masses.

Pete, I thought I recognized your name. I was starting to get into hand woodworking when Lie Nielsen started making that saw, so I had heard your name.

I saw the Lie Nielsen dovetail saw at a wood working show and bought it on the spot. It took me a while, probably two years before I became proficient with it. It was the most beautiful saw I had ever seen. I still have and use it. It is as bright and shiny as was when I bought it.

I'm sure you hear this all of the time. :)

[William Fretwell]

You can buy a Japanese pull saw and make your life very easy, no 2 year learning curve! Two weekends perhaps, and they just get better (or you do!).
Practice with a good wood like Cherry, not pine. It will speed up your learning.

[steven c newman]

Meh....not really......

[Andy Nichols]

My have to have item:

Rob Cosman saw blade marking knife....can mark in the width of the saw kerf with it and it starts the saw kerf!

His standard marking knife is thin enough but does not leave a kerf....

Regards,
Andy

[Pete Taran]

Steve, 100% in agreement. Meh indeed. Who wants to constantly blow saw dust off their cutting line and worry about breaking the fragile teeth. NOT worth the overhead. :)

[Derek Cohen]

I really want to begin to incorporate some dovetail joinery into my woodworking bag of tricks. For the longest time I thought the best way for me to do this was to throw down $$$ for a Leigh jig. But after doing a lot of reading here and elsewhere, I'm no longer convinced that going the jig route is any easier, just different. Learning to do it by hand seems more appealing now.

What I need though is a definitive list of tools I need to get started. Saws, chisels, marking gauges - please be specific. Even include workbench setup in this. As it stands now, my workbench is more of a plywood-topped assembly table. What kind of surface and vice do I need? Thanks so much. I'm excited to start my trip down the hand tool rabbit hole.

Hi Josh

Dovetailing may be done with the most basic of tools (such as a hacksaw) but, since it is for fun and pleasure as much as for production ...

1. Decent backsaw: Best inexpensive new saw is a Veritas 14 tpi dovetail saw. (If you are lucky, find an Independence Tools dovetail saw, forerunner of the LN - it cuts the dovetails for you :) )

2. A marking gauge is needed for the baselines: Veritas wheel gauge is the cheapest of the good gauges. Tite-Mark is the more expensive version. Both do the job.

3. A thin bladed knife is needed to transfer tails to pins (if you saw the tail board first). A pencil is needed if you saw the pins first. A decent knife will last a long time: Blue Spruce, Kadet, Chris Vesper, or a Stanley disposable trim knife.

4. You can mark the slopes with a sliding bevel or a dedicated dovetail gauge. Many of us just make our own. Woodjoy make a useful one with 1:8 and 1:6 angles.

5. You can hold the boards in most vises, some better than others. In general, a face vise is not ideal - low and may not hold the entire board. Many of us have built a Moxon dovetail vise, which raises the work to a comfortable height to saw.

6. Chisels: this depends on how narrow you make the dovetails. I go from 1/8", but most will say that 1/4" is their smallest. Certainly, this is a better place to start. So .. 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4" will likely get you there.

7. Block or bench plane to clean up the corners at the end.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Graham Haydon]

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Dovetail/

Any of the options listed by others will work, plenty of decent videos on YT if you need them. Over time you find that you don't really have to mark out as much on some pieces. Aside from a baseline you can often guess them.

[andy bessette]

+1 on the Japanese saw.

Also a Japanese double edge marking knife. After knifing, you can highlight the knife cut by lightly dragging a very sharp pencil point in the knife cut.

359162

[steven c newman]

Simple enough to do, actually..
359186
Stand one board up in the vise, lay out either pins or tails..
359187
I keep the board raised up, to not get in the way of squares, knives...fingers. After the layout is done, I'll drop the board down. I usually sit on a shop stool, anyway, so this puts the cuts just about right for me
The ONLY reason I used THIS saw? It was SHARP. It will cut to a line, as long as I am sawing things correctly. Crooked lines tend to be operator error....
359190
Once the lines are sawn, flop the board onto the benchtop. One can add a scrap board under the good board..as long as you can clamp the board in place. hate when it just bounces around.
Chisels?
359191
my "Usual Suspects" I use whatever size fits. I have a wide chisel on hand to fine tune things.
359192
When I chop out the waste, I leave a bit out on the end, so when I flip the board over..
359193
And chop from the other side, that little ledge gives a bit of support.
Use either the pins, or the tails to lay out the other half. Cut on the waste sides of the lines, leaving the lines.

I tend to do pins first, way easier to then mark out the tails..
359194
Then chop out the waste like before. going half way in fromeach face of the board.....
Then a dry fit..
359195
Pare, if needed, to improve the fit. Then on to the next corner....

I use that saw, a decent combo square, a good try square and a utility knife. The square and knife to make the base lines. The combo square to mark layout lines, along with a bevel gauge. The bevel gauge is set to the angle of the dovetail.
A few chisels. A clamp to hold the board in place while I chop. I have a marking gauge I can use as well..

Note: I did not say anything about what brand name I use.....I merely use what works in my shop. YMMV

[William Fretwell]

Steve, care to explain what's not real?

[steven c newman]

Like this question?

Refer to Peter Taran's answer....

[steven c newman]

Better looks at what I cobble dovetails with?
359197
I just got the No.4 back from the sharpening service...
359198
Squares, gauges, knife, pencil.
Not shown? My mallet and the chisels I use. Nothing complicated...

[Josh Saul]

So is it worth it to spend the extra money on the LN saw over the Veritas? The LN saw is gorgeous. I'd rather spend the extra cash now than be constantly thinking about an upgrade.

[David Eisenhauer]

This one is probably going to have to be on you because only you know what you can spend. The Veritas consistently gets "best bang for the buck" reviews and is considered a good cutter. The LN, more expensive, is a good cutter, also gets good reviews and has some similar "best bang for the bucks" ratings WHEN compared to the even more expensive saws put out there by specialty saw makers. Both will do the job but it is hard to quantify if even/how much better the LN will be than the Veritas for the additional money. I would assume that the LN would resell for a decent percentage of the purchase price if you decided to pass it along after a tryout.

[andy bessette]

What has prevented me from buying the Veritas dovetail saw is simply its ugliness. WTF were they thinking?

[Josh Saul]

What has prevented me from buying the Veritas dovetail saw is simply its ugliness. WTF were they thinking?

I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking it.

[Jeffrey Martel]

Production cost. It's cheaper and easier to do it with a molded spine than a metal spine. That turns into savings for the customer. They had a price point to meet and likely couldn't do that with a metal back. Keep in mind that the molded spine also has the attachment point for the handle. They don't have to mortise in a spine to a handle in this version. It will work just as well as the LN or any other sharpened and tuned saw, but it doesn't look as nice. Up to you to decide if the looks are worth the extra cost.

Cheap + New = Veritas Saw
Nice looking + New = Lie Nielsen, Bad Axe, Glenn Drake, etc.
Nice looking + Cheap = Old saw and plan on refurbing/sharpening
Nice Looking + Cheap + New = Build your own saw kit. Obviously more work than any of the above. I used a kit from Blackburn for my tenon saw that I built.


What has prevented me from buying the Veritas dovetail saw is simply its ugliness. WTF were they thinking?

[Jim Koepke]

What has prevented me from buying the Veritas dovetail saw is simply its ugliness. WTF were they thinking?

Most likely something like how to make a world class saw the working class can afford.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

A friend brought over his Veritas dovetail saw recently. Though the composition spine and lack of saw nuts doesn't appeal to me, it is a very good saw. It does look very nice when compared to some of my old beat up saws.

There is a lot to be said for having a tool that puts a smile on your face every time it is in your hand instead of having one that makes you think about the tool you wish you had bought.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking it.

Then get your LN. Just as neither will make you a better dovetailer; neither will leave you wanting constantly for more cowbell.

Now, I say that with the full self-awaredness that you could put the perfect tool in my hands and after a week, I'll be lusting after the next shiny new toy. But that's *my* shortcoming, not the tool's. This is all to say, if yr like me, don't think buying a good tool stops the rooster from straying or at least looking longingly outside of his own henhouse.

[Pat Barry]

What has prevented me from buying the Veritas dovetail saw is simply its ugliness. WTF were they thinking?
WTF are you seeing that's so ugly? To me it looks great and handles (sic) very nicely as well.

[Prashun Patel]

Looking back at your original post, if you are not averse to a hybrid approach and have a bandsaw...

There is a super simple way to cut tails using your bandsaw and a jig you can make in 10 minutes. This jig excels when you have to cut many drawer parts. You set the fence, cradle your part in the jig, run it through to the shoulder line, then flip the piece and cut a symmetrical tail line without resetting the fence. This allows you to get all of the hand cut look of regular dovetails. You still have to cut the pins by hand. If you use a pin router to remove the waste between the pins, and the bandsaw to nibble the waste between the tails, you can avoid ever having to touch a coping saw.

Another approach is to use a dozuki saw to cut the joinery in lieu of a dovetail saw. The nice thing about the dozuki is that you can cut the tails and pins with the board clamped to the bench top. This requires only a clamp - not a vise. It's a subtle point, but you may find that you prefer the visibility and ergonomics, and ease of minimizing vibration that cutting this way affords. Of course, it does mean you are crouching or kneeling, which makes it less ergonomic than western sawing in that respect.

Anyway, different (saw) strokes for different folks.

[Tony Wilkins]

For a little more than the LN, you can get a Bad Axe that is set up for you and the wood you want to work. And talk about a tool that's pretty enough to make you want to cut more dovetails!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Josh, I live in the middle of Ohio.... If you are near, stop in and try some of the different things that I have. In my mind, I have many saws.... then I met people like Steve, well, maybe I don't own many saws... :D