What's Up With Plywood???

[Derek Arita]

I just made a trip to my local HD for some 3/4", one side sanded, plywood. Am I missing something or has the quality of plywood gone way, way downhill? I could probably get better stuff at a lumberyard, but it's not as convenient and it costs more $ and $ is a big factor.
I don't use a lot of plywood, so I was pretty disappointed at what I saw. I still have some scraps from what I purchased a few years back and man, there's no comparison.

[John K Jordan]

Am I missing something or has the quality of plywood gone way, way downhill?

My observation is you are not missing anything except the quality. All the plywood I've looked at in the big box stores in the last six months has been horrible. I did find better quality at the lumber yard. The last time I needed plywood I sprung for baltic birch which is excellent, at least for now.

JKJ

[Steve Eure]

My last plywood buy was also at a big box store. It will be my last. I bought a sheet of 3/4 baltic burch cabinet grade and went home. Sawed three pieces length ways 8 feet long. When I grabbed the center section to move it, it flexed so bad I could not hold it upright. It had a three foot void clear through it. All the way through the center piece and partially through the outside panels. Took it back and the women in charge did not want to refund my money at first because I had cut it. She then told me to just go get another off the same stack I had gotten that one from. Not a chance. After talking to the manager, I got my refund. Found out the stuff came from China. Poor quality.

[Bruce Wrenn]

HD in our market sells Columbia Forest Products, C-3 grade. By picking thru stack, usually I can find enough to do what I need. With the housing market red hot, plywood producers can't make it fast enough to keep up with demand. I've never seen any baltic birch at either BORG.

[John K Jordan]

My last plywood buy was also at a big box store. It will be my last. I bought a sheet of 3/4 baltic burch cabinet grade and went home. Sawed three pieces length ways 8 feet long. ... Found out the stuff came from China. Poor quality.

Yikes. It sounds like they sold you "birch plywood" (4'x8' sheets) instead of "baltic birch" (5'x5' sheets). When looking for real baltic birch locally the big box stores said sure, they had it but I found out what they really had was birch faced plywood and it didn't look good. They didn't know the difference.

I finally found the real stuff at a company that catered to cabinet makers. What I got was perfect, no voids. Wasn't cheap.

JKJ

[Dave Zellers]

I could probably get better stuff at a lumberyard, but it's not as convenient and it costs more $ and $ is a big factor.
Probably??? Of course you can. And of course it will cost more money. Seriously? You're asking for quality plywood at junk prices. Please let us all know when you locate some.

I'm totally sympathetic to the $ matters comment but so does your time and so does the project you are working on. What if you persevere through a project using crappy plywood and then a year from now it delaminates? Everything, time and all materials are wasted.

People need to stop providing a market for that crap. I've used it, I say this from experience.

[Dave Zellers]

I finally found the real stuff at a company that catered to cabinet makers. What I got was perfect, no voids. Wasn't cheap.

JKJ
And it shouldn't be. It is a joy to work with.

[Bill Dindner]

HD in our market sells Columbia Forest Products, C-3 grade. By picking thru stack, usually I can find enough to do what I need. With the housing market red hot, plywood producers can't make it fast enough to keep up with demand. I've never seen any baltic birch at either BORG.

My Local Home Depot in Queens sells Columbia Forest as well, just made 2 bookshelves entirely out of The Burch Plywood, not to be confused with Baltic Burch Plywood. I had to spend quite a while sifting trough the pile to find 3 decent sheets, but I did find them eventually and the quality was quite good for the money.

[Dave Zellers]

It's just like tools. Yes they still make quality tools and they still make quality plywood.

But they need to get paid for it. How else can they do it?

[Ben Rivel]

Um, plywood at any home center store is and as far as my experience has always been bad. You have to do to real lumber yards or construction lumber yards to get anything thats worth buying.

[Greg Parrish]

Selection not the same here in Florida either. Less layers and more voids these days.

For building anything nice I usually buy oak plywood, birch plywood or what they call blonde-wood plywood which is primed on one side. I find them to be the closest to the plywood of old that I remember getting that had a nice finish with lots of layers. These are all the 4x8 products. I've never seen the 5x5 Baltic birch mentioned above.

[Bob Cooper]

Find a finish carpenter and ask him where he buys his plywood. Here in SC I can buy nice plywood for less then HD. I can also get Chinese plywood that's prefinished -- 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4. It's a 30 minute drive but well worth it

[glenn bradley]

Home Depot did indeed at least have decent shop grade plywood at one time. That has been many years gone in my area. Neither of the major home centers in my area has anything approaching cabinet grade plywood.

Quality is a relative thing. "Good" anything is often in the eye of the beholder. We have to remember that we are going on our second generation of tradespeople who have never known life without Home Depot or the like.

[Dick Mahany]

I've completely given up on box store plywood. The last sheet I bought had veneer so thin that I could easily sand through it with my ROS. I now drive 90 minutes to a plywood distributor. They have many grades of plywood and prices that are quite reasonable. I used prefinished 5x5' sheets of baltic birch for my last project and there wasn't a void anywhere in multiple sheets.

[William Shelley]

My local HD's in Portland, Oregon are carrying 3/4 "radiata pine" plywood that is very flat, has lots of nice uniform plies like you'd expect from baltic birch or appleply, and it's cheap at around $30/sheet for 4x8. Being Pine, it's probably a bit softer than a hardwood plywood so I would use it only for shop cabinets or fixtures for example.

Just saying, complaining about plywood quality .... when all you're looking at is the construction grade stuff, is a bit silly.

[Robert Engel]

Ben is partly correct.

Be aware even the pro lumber distributors (at least the ones around me) carry the Chinese and Ecuador plywood, usually as their "B" grade.

If you specify "A grade" or premium plywood, (ie. genuine BB cabinet grade) its $45-60/sheet where I'm at.

[roger wiegand]

The Borgs carry poor product because their customers mostly care about it being cheap. That said, I have found quite nice construction grade South American ply at the HD in recent times.

If the new import duties on Canadian wood stand, be ready for yet another bump up in prices and down in quality as more north American product gets displaced by Chinese imports and everyone takes advantage of the news to bump their prices up.

[Bill McNiel]

Yikes. It sounds like they sold you "birch plywood" (4'x8' sheets) instead of "baltic birch" (5'x5' sheets). When looking for real baltic birch locally the big box stores said sure, they had it but I found out what they really had was birch faced plywood and it didn't look good. They didn't know the difference.

I finally found the real stuff at a company that catered to cabinet makers. What I got was perfect, no voids. Wasn't cheap.

JKJ

FWIW- Baltic Birch is available in both 5'x 5' and 4'x8' sheets. The difference, I've been told, is the glue's water resistance, but I'm no authority.

In my experience, one is asking for a lot of headaches trying to build anything nice with material from one of the BORG type stores. Of course it can be done but with many more issues. IMHO- BB is well worth the extra $.

[John K Jordan]

FWIW- Baltic Birch is available in both 5'x 5' and 4'x8' sheets. The difference, I've been told, is the glue's water resistance, but I'm no authority.


That's good to know. Do you know where to find it? I found only one dealer in the Knoxville area that carried baltic birch and they only had the 5'x5' sheets.

JKJ

[Keith Hankins]

the only thing big box ply is good for is floor underlayment.

I searched and found a cabinet supplier that has quality stuff and its good. You pay for it, but its good. Only ply I use is cherry.

industrial plywood is my go to place. I'm blessed to be close.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I drove 110 miles one way to buy Baltic birch plywood. While I could have bought it locally, it was $20/sheet more expensive. Since I had other business in Spokane, the savings paid for my trip. It was a joy to work with. I made my new crosscut sled from it.

[Bill McNiel]

That's good to know. Do you know where to find it? I found only one dealer in the Knoxville area that carried baltic birch and they only had the 5'x5' sheets.

JKJ

Probably won't help you John but in Seattle, both Compton Lumber and Crosscut Hardwoods carry the 4'x8' sheets.

[Bert McMahan]

As a newbie that has only ever used the big box stuff, how much do you normally pay for the good stuff? I'm going to look around me (middle TN area) but I don't know what pricing to look for. I've only even seen the stuff at a Woodcraft but haven't bought any yet as I haven't needed it.

[rudy de haas]

Here in Sunny Alberta the big box stores sell mostly made-in-china plywood - some I bought several years ago exuded a white chemical that eroded the cabel coverings on heating wire. Absolute garbage.

Windsor Plywood, however, offers made in Canada fir and other plywoods of decent quality and real (Russian or Finnish) Baltic birch of high quality.

[Larry Edgerton]

The last lift of 3/4 Baltic Birch I bought was $27 and change a sheet. If you can get together a buying group that is the way to buy plywood of any kind.

I would not waste my time in a box store.

[Mike Fritz]

Find a finish carpenter and ask him where he buys his plywood. Here in SC I can buy nice plywood for less then HD. I can also get Chinese plywood that's prefinished -- 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4. It's a 30 minute drive but well worth it

Bob - I'm in Aiken SC what is your plywood source. I tried to PM you but your queue is full.

[David T gray]

The last lift of 3/4 Baltic Birch I bought was $27 and change a sheet. If you can get together a buying group that is the way to buy plywood of any kind.

I would not waste my time in a box store.

thats cheap what grade is it, i pay like 55 for b/bb which is all they stock but it also get delivered to my door for free and i only buy a few sheets at once.

[Jim Dwight]

I agree with William and Roger. HD is selling nominally 3/4 plywood made in Chile that is softwood but has one face I would grade A and the other ranges from B to C. There are few voids and none really large ones. If I remember right it has 6 plies. I think it is interior glue but otherwise it's good stuff - especially for $30/sheet. I used several sheets on a workbench and more on shop cabinets. I built the carcase for a bathroom cabinet out of it too (and put finish on all sides just in case). Lowe's in this area has something similar.

Blondewood can be OK, usually has few voids. But the wood is very soft and often stinks. But better than some alternatives.

Much of the plywood at the Lowe's and HD here is for construction and pretty rough. But not all of it. I've also found decent 1/2 inch but it is harder to find.

I agree BB is better than anything at the local BB stores. It's exterior plies and all the interior plies are birch and they are all the same thickness. Voids are very small if there are any at all. Good stuff but pricey. I've used nominally 1/2 for drawer sides and backs on kitchen cabinets and furniture. I dovetail it. I use 1/4 for drawer bottoms in small drawers and 1/2 for drawer bottoms in big drawers. I get it from a hardwood dealer.

[Derek Arita]

I guess all I'm saying is that I used to be able to buy decent shop grade plywood at HD, at a decent price. I was just surprised at how much the quality has degraded over the last few years. For furniture, I buy at a couple of lumber yards and pay the $, but for shop stuff, I can't justify the $. That said, I sure wish the quality was what it used to be.

[Mark Blatter]

I finally found the real stuff at a company that catered to cabinet makers. What I got was perfect, no voids. Wasn't cheap.

JKJ

I am curious how much 'wasn't cheap' was. Do you mind sharing?

I bought some 1/2" 5x5 sheets a few weeks ago and paid $18 per sheet. The 3/4" was more, around $32 as I recall. That to me seems pretty reasonable. However, as I cut it up, I found some voids for the first time ever. I think the quality has slipped just a bit over the past 4-5 years. I buy it from a wholesal hardwood/sheet goods supplier.

[Clint Baxter]

That's good to know. Do you know where to find it? I found only one dealer in the Knoxville area that carried baltic birch and they only had the 5'x5' sheets.

JKJ

I've gotten 3/4" Baltic Birch from Menards before. They have it available through special order in the 4x8 sheets. Can also get it in other thicknesses as well. They stock the 1/4" in the store.

Have recently gone to ordering BB from Renneberg Hardwoods in Minnesota. They market both 5x5 and 4x8 sheets in 1/4, 1/2, 5/8, and 3/4. You can additionally get 1/8 and 3/8 in 5x5 only. They deliver throughout my area for a reasonable price.

Clint

[Bill Adamsen]

Sourcing Eastern White Pine plywood recently my supplier warned that they had gotten some negative feedback on the product I was purchasing. This is from the specialist supplier for sheet goods that everyone uses in this CT region. The surface veneers were so thin that underlying dark areas were visually telegraphing through. Forewarned, I ended up testing and rejecting that product. Another somewhat local specialty hardwood supplier carried sheetgoods where the material was sourced differently, and I acquired the pine plywood from them. I was grateful that my local supplier was forthright. In fact the gentlemen is a true font of knowledge applied customer service. But that was the first time I can remember having been advised by a supplier that the material quality was suspect.

[roger wiegand]

The last lift of 3/4 Baltic Birch I bought was $27 and change a sheet. If you can get together a buying group that is the way to buy plywood of any kind..

That's amazing. 3/4" BB 5x5 is $69 and 4x8 is $119 at my local supplier (Boulter Plywood). How much do you have to buy to get that kind of price?

[Dimitrios Fradelakis]

I just called a plywood supplier that's literally 30 seconds from my job and asked how much 1/4" BB ply is and was told its 85 cents a square foot.

[GENE SALVATERRA]

This is my first post here, so I hope I don't get persecuted!;)

While Baltic Birch still seems to be the best product currently available, I've seen it's quality deteriorate dramatically in the last 10, or so years. I did a fairly good sized speaker cabinet project (fleet of 84 multi angle monitor wedges) in 2004 and was delighted with the 5/8" Baltic Birch. Went on to other projects not requiring much plywood until recently. Fast forward to last year and I was appalled by the same product. Very dry & splintery with a high number of poorly implemented plugs, and the list goes on!

Upon researching a number of years back, I read several articles concerning what was "SUPPOSEDLY" domestic plywood and discovered that some of the larger suppliers, such as Georgia Pacific, etc, actually had their American sourced lumber "processed" in "Chinesiawanoreanam" but because it was American sourced and they retained ownership throughout the process, were able to get away with selling it as domestic! This also helped them avoid import fees, tariffs, etc!

I guess my point is that it's important to know what you're getting, when it comes to plywood, but not as easy to know as it used to be!

Just Sayin'
Gene

[Bob Cooper]

Bob - I'm in Aiken SC what is your plywood source. I tried to PM you but your queue is full.

mike. Odd that you get an error about PMing me.

Seatch for Roys Wood Products in Lugoff SC. If u come this way stop by. It would be good to meet a fellow creeker

[Larry Edgerton]

That's amazing. 3/4" BB 5x5 is $69 and 4x8 is $119 at my local supplier (Boulter Plywood). How much do you have to buy to get that kind of price?


http://www.theworkbench.com/plywood.php#bunkply

Prices have actually come down since I last bought. The number of sheets in a bunk varies by the thickness, as there would be twice as many sheets in a lift of 1/2" as in a lift of 1"etc. etc. Varies by manufacturer as well. It good for them and good for me. No homeowners banging up the sheets looking for whatever they are looking for.

[Derek Arita]

OK...just went to Lowes and found what I was looking for. I usually go to HD for that kind of stuff, but more times than not, Lowes has had what I need. Don't know why, but I'm always surprised at that...http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/derekarita1/unnamed_zpsrchvkvlq.jpg (http://s63.photobucket.com/user/derekarita1/media/unnamed_zpsrchvkvlq.jpg.html)

[Chris Padilla]

I've been quite happy with the plywood I've gotten from my local HD...both 1/2" and 3/4" have been just fine to work with. I seem to recall it being Columbia brand.

[Carroll Courtney]

Whats sad is I remember when HD first come to town,they sold birch plywood with poplar core and HD had purchase it from a local supplier.Then next they sold it with particle board core layers under the veneer with I think 3 layers of just plain core.Then after that started coming from other countries,but why??They had no trouble selling the better grade of plywood,but now you just don't see people loading their trucks up with the cheaper plywood.I have purchase the cheap stuff to make cabinets for several garages which its barely good enough for that.I say they did it for more profit but if they are not selling it then there is no profit.But I'm sure someone is buying it

[Greg Parrish]

Quality goes down, cost goes down, profit goes up and price stays same or rises. Sounds like every other box store product these days.


Whats sad is I remember when HD first come to town,they sold birch plywood with poplar core and HD had purchase it from a local supplier.Then next they sold it with particle board core layers under the veneer with I think 3 layers of just plain core.Then after that started coming from other countries,but why??They had no trouble selling the better grade of plywood,but now you just don't see people loading their trucks up with the cheaper plywood.I have purchase the cheap stuff to make cabinets for several garages which its barely good enough for that.I say they did it for more profit but if they are not selling it then there is no profit.But I'm sure someone is buying it

[Jeffrey Martel]

Just don't cheap out and buy the cheap versions of the birch ply at Crosscut. Horrible stuff that delaminated way worse than anything I've bought at Home Depot. I believe it was the $35 or $40/sheet stuff.


Probably won't help you John but in Seattle, both Compton Lumber and Crosscut Hardwoods carry the 4'x8' sheets.

[Ben Zara]

My biggest gripe with HD sheet goods is the way they store them. The HD store by me stacks the plywood on metal brackets that are more than 36 inches apart. The plywood almost always has a wave in it that makes it really difficult to work with. I'll never understand why they can't put a well supported flat bottom for their quasi cabinet grade plywood. Maybe it's a forklift thing?

[Dave Zellers]

Definitely not a forklift thing. It's a "I don't care because I don't have to" thing. When people stop buying it, they will change their ways.

Everyone knows, they all monitor their sales on a daily basis.

[Bill McNiel]

Just don't cheap out and buy the cheap versions of the birch ply at Crosscut. Horrible stuff that delaminated way worse than anything I've bought at Home Depot. I believe it was the $35 or $40/sheet stuff.

Jeff,
Not a chance. I only use BB. BTW - the 4'x8' sheets are superior to the 5'x5' in quality.
regards - Bill

[Larry Frank]

I have used the Aruaco plywood from Menards and very good quality. Last week, I drove up to Chicago to buy Baltic Birch from Owl Hardwood and the quality was excellent. I think there is good plywood available but you have to find it and pay for it.

I do not buy from HD because of the way they store it on racks and the waves in it.

[Art Mann]

Having read this thread, I believe that some people may not know the difference between real Baltic Birch plywood imported from Russia or other Baltic countries and the cheaper domestic Birch veneer plywood. I have bought good domestic Birch plywood but there is no comparison between it and the premium imported material.

[Tom Bain]

I guess I'm fortunate to have a couple local specialty lumber/building materials suppliers that stock decent cabinet grade plywood, but it's not cheap. I never use plywood from Home Depot or Lowe's in a woodworking project.

[Greg Parrish]

Definitely not a forklift thing. It's a "I don't care because I don't have to" thing. When people stop buying it, they will change their ways.

Everyone knows, they all monitor their sales on a daily basis.


Problem here is that wood workers are not buying it, but carpenters and home builders are buying it by the delivery and truck load. Probably not because of best pricing but because of credit incentives and other reasons. Regardless, for rough exterior and interior walls and what not usage on job sites, I don't think "MOST" contractors care. They slap it up and move on. The home buyer is getting the problems to deal with later when they start showing up. Regardless, as long as they are selling this in bulk they will never care much about the few pallets they put on the rack for us to complain about as we pick through 20 sheets to find one decent one.

[Brian Henderson]

I used to have a great hardwood and plywood supplier near my house, then I moved 75 miles away and found that my old supplier is still the closest one and now it's on the other side of a mountain. You'd think that there would be another supplier locally considering the housing trade is going like gangbusters and there's a Lowes or Home Depot every couple of blocks, but there isn't. Still, I've found that, at Lowes at least, they have some decent quality oak and maple faced ply that I've used and seems to give good bang for the buck, but who knows how long that'll last.

[Art Mann]

Around here, no quality house builder would buy a majority their materials from HD or Lowes. Not only is the quality wildly variable, but they don't provide the level of customer service the builders demand. For basic lumber in volume quantities, the price is also too high. On the other hand, the building supply place I order specialty materials from is almost completely uninterested in walk-in customers. They deal mostly with contractors and phoned in delivery orders.