Amazing!! But what is it?

[Jeremy Hite]

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I took a side job for an existing customer which was to remove a couple small old trees just below ground level. One was dead the other lived it's life and was almost through. After cutting into the smaller of the two (different species of trees) it was abundantly clear that I'd either never cut this kind of tree down and didnt know it existed in central USA or something funky happened to this one. The bright yellow and oranges are awesome and after being in sunlight for a little while it all goes to burnt orange. U can see some of the orange in photo. 1st 2 pics are sanded and a light wipe with mineral spirits. 3rd pic is a large burl from the same tree trunk. Gorgeous stuff but I'm stumped. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Any ideas?

[Mike Cutler]

Osage Orange Bois 'd arc ??

[Danny Hamsley]

Could be osage orange, but I am leaning to redbud, Cercis canadensis.

[Bradley Gray]

The color is right for osage. I have never seen burl - very nice.

The dye in osage is water soluble - maybe a clue

[Justin Ludwig]

I've worked with a lot of Osage Orange (hedge apple, bois d'arc, maclura pomifera, horse apple). Sure looks like it to me.

[John K Jordan]

I took a side job for an existing customer which was to remove a couple small old trees just below ground level. One was dead the other lived it's life and was almost through. After cutting into the smaller of the two (different species of trees) it was abundantly clear that I'd either never cut this kind of tree down and didnt know it existed in central USA or something funky happened to this one. The bright yellow and oranges are awesome and after being in sunlight for a little while it all goes to burnt orange. U can see some of the orange in photo. 1st 2 pics are sanded and a light wipe with mineral spirits. 3rd pic is a large burl from the same tree trunk. Gorgeous stuff but I'm stumped. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Any ideas?

Beautiful wood. If there were leaves I hope you saved one. If there was bark perhaps you took a photo. A tree person can also work from twigs and buds.

As mentioned before, wood from different species can look so much alike that IDing from a photo is hit or miss. You have a far better chance of getting it right if you use the techniques to examine the rings and pores in the end grain. Also, pay attention to things like the smell, hardness, weight, etc.

If you are not aware, the US gov forest products laboratory will analyze a sample of your wood for free. Look at the bottom of the wood ID page on the on-line Wood Database.

On second thought, I may know what it is and it's very dangerous to work with. Ship it to me immediately. :)

JKJ

[Steve Demuth]

I'd agree with the others based on the cross section the most likely bet is Osage Orange. That's certainly a likely bet in Missouri.

[Eric Anderson]

I grew up on a farm in Bois D'Arc, MO and went to then SMSU, now Missouri University and pretty sure you have the old hedge apple tree. We had tons of the Bois D'Arc trees trees on the farm, and the wood is beautiful, but hard as iron. We used it for fence posts, and would last a hundred years (and would eat a chain saw for lunch). It is a very hard brittle fibrous wood, and is hard to work with for wood working, other than using small pieces for accents. The yellow will fade with time if left out in the sun. Growing up, there were thousands of the trees, but a lot got cut down for grazing land (we cut out over 20 acres of trees on our farm (early 60's).

[Jeremy Hite]

I grew up on a farm in Bois D'Arc, MO and went to then SMSU, now Missouri University and pretty sure you have the old hedge apple tree. We had tons of the Bois D'Arc trees trees on the farm, and the wood is beautiful, but hard as iron. We used it for fence posts, and would last a hundred years (and would eat a chain saw for lunch). It is a very hard brittle fibrous wood, and is hard to work with for wood working, other than using small pieces for accents. The yellow will fade with time if left out in the sun. Growing up, there were thousands of the trees, but a lot got cut down for grazing land (we cut out over 20 acres of trees on our farm (early 60's).

Well, I initially thought it was osage orange/hedge apple as well as did several friends of mine. I asked a neighbor who lived a couple houses down for MANY years and she said there wasn't ever a hedge apple on that tree. The tree was smaller than Osage orange and I know it lived several times longer than what they do. It lived around 90 years. Personally every time I picture the tree in my mind I quickly start to think Redbud tree but it would have been on the smaller side from the ones cut out of my own yard growing up and the more recent ones from the '07-'08 ice storms. I am almost certain it's not osage orange unless this one didn't have apples ever, live much longer, grew smaller etc.

Also, this wood doesn't smell like osage. The texture is fine not fibrous. It easily sands smooth with 100grit and like glass with 180grit. Cuts very nicely and smooth as well. Not like any experience I ever had with Osage

[John K Jordan]

...Also, this wood doesn't smell like osage. The texture is fine not fibrous. It easily sands smooth with 100grit and like glass with 180grit. Cuts very nicely and smooth as well. Not like any experience I ever had with Osage

That first picture appears to have far more chatoyance than I've ever seen in osage.

JKJ

[Jeremy Hite]

That first picture appears to have far more chatoyance than I've ever seen in osage.

JKJ

Yes, the reflective properties are astounding in several parts of this wood. I cut a few more pieces off of it and also compared some none burl pieces with samples of osage and am new even more certain that it's something else.

[Jim Andrew]

Osage orange has thorns, so that might be a clue. In Kansas, we have a tree called Mullberry, seems to be related to Osage, but has no thorns. When first cut, it is yellow, after it gets sunlight for some time, it turns orange, and then red after that. Think it eventually turns brown.

[Eric D Matson]

I think it is either mulberry or redbud.

[Danny Hamsley]

The latewood pores in osage are arranged in wavy bands and the pores are totally occluded with tyloses. The pic is not close-up enough to distinguish the pore arrangement in the latewood or to see if the pores are filled with tyloses.

[Jeremy Hite]

The latewood pores in osage are arranged in wavy bands and the pores are totally occluded with tyloses. The pic is not close-up enough to distinguish the pore arrangement in the latewood or to see if the pores are filled with tyloses.


359495359496359497359498Are any of these first 3 pics decent enough for you to better determine the species? Do you think that it is possible for a hedge apple to never grow any of the actual "apples" from which it gets the name? This tree never had any and it looked way more like a small redbud or an ornamental tree of some sort than a hedge. This does have several characteristics of hedge apple tree but also several that aren't the same. Also, this area that was cut from roots up to about 3.5 ft was all very yellow while the upper branches and trunk were of a more usual color than this. I'd really be happy to know one way or another. I do have a digital microscope I can use tomorrow and take very high resolution pics but then I will not be able to post them as they are without drastically shrinking them. I thank you for any and all info you have shared and hope to know more from you.
Thanks

[Jason Mikits]

Danny needs a picture of the end grain, not the side grain you have pictured. Also Maclura pomifera aka. hedge is dioecious, meaning male and female parts are on different trees. Which means you won't see fruit on male plants.

[John K Jordan]

I do have a digital microscope I can use tomorrow and take very high resolution pics but then I will not be able to post them as they are without drastically shrinking them. I thank you for any and all info you have shared and hope to know more from you.

You don't' need ultra high rez pictures, just enough resolution to see a section of the end grain with at least two or three rings in it It it best to find a place on the wood where the figure is not all twisty and burled - just an part of the ordinary growth rings, preferably in the middle of the log or branch, away from the juvenile wood and away from the bark. Be sure to slice the wood first as in the instructions in the wood ID article in the wood database.

Don't forget about the free government ID service I mentioned. We sent samples to them as a test and they were right on the money (as expected).

JKJ

[Ronald Blue]

A mulberry would have had berries on it at some point each year like the name implies. I have some on my property.

[Jason Mikits]

That's not exactly true, most mulberry trees are dioecious. Males don't bear fruit.

[John K Jordan]

That's not exactly true, most mulberry trees are dioecious. Males don't bear fruit.

That's a good point. I have many mulberry trees here that fruit but I never even thought to look for the male trees. Time for a walk-around!

From one web page:
Look for pale green, slightly tapered, clustered, hanging catkins between 1 and 2 inches in length, as these are the male catkins. Female catkins are the same color and general form but are shorter, at a maximum of 1 inch in length. http://www.gardenguides.com/104541-tell-mulberry-tree-male-female.html

JKJ

[Ronald Blue]

That's a good point. I have many mulberry trees here that fruit but I never even thought to look for the male trees. Time for a walk-around!

From one web page:
Look for pale green, slightly tapered, clustered, hanging catkins between 1 and 2 inches in length, as these are the male catkins. Female catkins are the same color and general form but are shorter, at a maximum of 1 inch in length. http://www.gardenguides.com/104541-tell-mulberry-tree-male-female.html

JKJ
Actually researching it all mulberries are dioecious. Other words so they are either male or female. I guess that I have always had female and the birds love them. Somewhere there must be a male tree as John says. I learned something new.

[Barry Richardson]

Hedge is the most likely, but I have seen Chittum burl that looks similar too....

[Jeremy Hite]

I'm posting a few more pics and this time of the end grain. This is from a section that was around 18" from the burl so it is a good representation of the grain as it was throughout the small tree. I hope that these will suffice because I was set up and about to take a couple high res closeups with the dig. microscope but before I got a few taken I got thirsty and on my way to the kitchen I sent the microscope to the floor as a result of tripping on the power supply wire. It has a couple structural issues now. The tree was only 10" or at the very most 12" diameter at it's thickest spot and due to the age(I'm guessing) much of the area where you'd find heartwood is practically hollow. The recently deceased woman who lived next door to the house that I removed this tree from said it was there when she was a little girl and she passed away last year at over 90yrs old. I am not by any stretch an expert or even well versed in tree IDs but wouldn't that rule out a Hedge Apple tree? I was thinking they lived 40 or 50 yrs.
thanks everyone for your interest and assistance.359857359858359859359860

[Jeremy Hite]

The actual structure of the tree was pretty much identical to this redbud tree other than there was an additional trunk .359861

[Danny Hamsley]

Looks perfect for redbud.

[Jeremy Hite]

After checking out the wood database photos and don't a few tests I'm almost 100% certain it's mulberry. Amidst everything goes against hedge Apple. Doesn't turn water yellow, no smell like apple, too old, too small etc. The end grain photo on wood database is as exact as it can get without looking at 2 of the same pics. Thanx for everyone's input and direction. I'm pretty certain but for the sake of my sanity I'll send it in soon for a proper identification. If by chance it does come back different I'll more than a little surprised. Now if only I could figure out what I'd most like to use it for. Have 3 more that are all at least 2-4 times the size of the one i have photos of here. What would any of you use it for? 361164

[Dan Forman]

If not cut up into little bits, a turner could make good use of it, make beautiful bowls or hollow forms! Also make nice lids for boxes. Ever get confirmation as to species?

Dan

[Jeremy Hite]

So I finally was able to get a couple samples of this wood up to the park university MSU for their horticulture department to check out. They initially thought the same as I did being that at first glance it had to be Osage or mulberry. After a close examination Osage was quickly ruled out. Color and heft are really the only 2 traits shared. So they said it was almost certainly white mulberry. I'm still not satisfied with that conclusion because the tree itself was not in any resemblance to a white mulberry tree. The age of the tree which is pretty substantial can coincide with that of the typical white mulber5ry tree. The main problem I'm having is the size of the tree was a heck of a lot smaller resembling that of a Dogwood or other ornamental or decorative tree. The bark is different as well. I was told there not able to do a DNA test or conclusive test like that due to the fact that it's been cut down for a couple of years now and there's no leaves and the roots are dead so I'm kind of wondering if any of you guys know of any other way of determining this as it's just not in the cards for it to be white mulberry but as of right now I'm having to go with that because that's as much as I've gotten and those people are more inclined to know the truth than I am for certain. I did uncover a sizeable chunk of the tree that I had forgotten about it was stored on a large rack system that I had and it was in the back so I just forgotten that it was there behind a bunch of white oak and all that. I'm going to try to post a picture here shortly that will show you the bark and the other part that's not leaning towards the white mulberry is that the upper parts of the tree that were tossed into the brush piles at the local yard waste center we're not the same color all of that wood was much lighter in color and had no yellow Hues to it whatsoever only the base of it where the barrels were around where I obviously had an infection and also a termite problem from the half of the tree that was dead or yellow in the tree was dying rapidly as it had an abundance of leaves only 3 years prior to being cut down the subsequent 2 years after half the tree was dead and the other half was on his way out in quick fashion. I also post a few more pictures of some cross cuts and other slices that I've managed to take off a few the other pieces and a couple of the girls sections that I have stripped all the way down to the beautiful girls and yellow wood. I do appreciate all the help that I've been given this far and advice and tips and all that I'm just really hoping to get somehow a conclusive answer to this so that I don't have any doubt in my mind if I'm talking to somebody about incorporating it into a project they're asking me to make for them or just trying to figure it out for my own peace of mind and now I don't go insane that is driving me absolutely crazy not knowing with absolute certainty. Thanks again.

[Danny Hamsley]

As I indicated in the second reply to this post, I still believe it is redbud, Cercis canadensis. Look at some comparative pics here:

http://hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/redbud.htm

[John K Jordan]

Jeremy,

Did you send a piece off the US Forest Products lab for ID as I suggested that on 4/25? I told you how find them. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?254234-Amazing!!-But-what-is-it&p=2684111#post2684111
It doesn't matter how old and how dry the wood is. Your results from them may be different but when I sent samples they were quick and accurate.

Alternatively, put a small piece in the mail to me and I'll look at it with the microscope and try for an ID, or at least eliminate some guesses.

All I need is a piece showing the end grain with rings, the less burled/figured the better. Best to have a piece big enough to show at least two or three rings, no bigger than 1/2" square is needed, and just thick enough to hold. I can examine the early and latewood pore structure, look for tyloses, measure do dry and wet fluorescence tests, density if the piece isn't too small, and compare it to my library of wood samples.

Without looking at the structure any guess you get is just that - even the bark may be no help on smaller trees since juvenile bark is often different than that of mature trees.

JKJ

[Rob Luter]

I have some Mulberry that looks like that.

[Danny Hamsley]

The wood in the pic appears to have the pores filled with tyloses. Mulberry pores are open and not filled with tyloses. The "dogwoodish" size or smallish size as in an ornamental or decorative tree fits what you will find with redbud.