100 BF red-oak, what are my choices?

[Kenny King]

Hi folks. Great sight, I've been spending more time at work reading the posts than I should be :)

Anyhow, I'm building some kitchen cabinets. These are frameless design w/ hw oak ply for the carcass'.

Here's some details on the cabs to give an idea of what the hardwood construction will be:
There will be a 3/4 thick "face frame" to make the ends of the ply look nice. I plan on facing the carcass ply with 3/4 thick oak in widths of: 3/4, 1 1/4, 1 1/2, and 1 3/4. The various widths are needed to fit the cabs to kitchen walls, dividing uppers/lowers cabs and to fit the 36" hood over the 36" stove where the stove takes up 37" (+1/2" on either side of stove & 36" wall cabs).

For the drawer faces, these will be 3/4 oak joined. There are seven drawers ranging from 5" high to 11" high in 18" and 30" widths. The drawer faces will be attached to 1/2" ply box with DFA (drawer face adjusters).

The door stiles and rails will be 2 1/4" wide. The door panels will be of 3/4" hardwood. Maximum total door width is < 20". Most are around 12" wide.

A little more background on shop. I have a 2 1/4" hp router with 3 bases (plunge, D-handle, fixed) that I can use for jointing by mounting router into a router table and using a split fence. I'm not sure how limited this setup is, but it looks like it could work. I also have a 10" table saw and a decent skill saw. I plan on making some jigs and guides to cut the stock square.

OK, so here's some questions.
1. What's the least expensive way to by the lumber? 4/4, 8/4, 12/4? How wide, 6", 8", 12"? Just a ballpark answer on what I should look for.

2. I plan on using #1 common. Tague lumber here in philly sells finished sawn 4/4 x 6" lumber for just shy of $3.00 a board-foot. I didn't ask about 8/4. Should I buy 4/4 or 8/4 or 12/4? I don't mind cutting but I'm not sure of about jointing all this stuff. What's a realistic trade off given the shop that I have? I'm a hard worker, but I don't want to overwhelm myself.

3. I have been kind of leaning towards buying the finished lumber since I don't have a jointer. However, I do have a decent router, and I plan on building a decent size router table with a split fence. Is it worth buying ruff-sawn lunmber given the amount of lumber I need and the equipment I have?

4. Let's say I go with the ruff-sawn. Please recommend a method for finishing the lumber.

Yikes! this is getting long. OK nuff said for now. Thanks tons for listening (even if you didn't make it to the end of this long post).

- Kenny King
novice creeker

[Jeff Sudmeier]

1) I have found that the cheapest lumber is always in 4/4. Since you will be using 3/4 lumber, this is how I would buy it
2) Warning on #1 common: in order to get use of some of the peices, knots will show. I actually like the knots and use them as part of the design. I almost always fill them with epoxy. The $3.00 a BF for lumber that is jointed one edge and one face and planed the other is a pretty good price I would say.
3) If you don't have a jointer or planer I would buy finished lumber. In a project the size of kitchen cabs you really need to use jointed and planed lumber.
4) If you don't have a planer, the only way is with hand planes. If you do have a planer you can use it and take EXTREMELY light passes to "face joint". It doesn't work near as well as using a jointer, but it can be done, I have done it. As far as edge jointing goes, you can use a GCSS like the EZ guide or the router table, either way is not near as good as a jointer.

Finally, most of all GOOD LUCK and don't be afraid to ask more ????'s.

[Mike Wilkins]

I have purchased from and visited Steve Wall Lumber Company in Mayodan, North Carolina many times in the past. I had them send me some 20 BF packs of red oak once for a bunk bed project, and the lumber was perfect. Flat and smooth on each side. You can save some $$ if you get it in 100 BF lots as the cost goes down. They will ship (for a fee of course) or you can drive down to their facility. About 35 miles north of Greensboro, NC near the VA state line. Good bunch of folks to work with.
Check out their web site-walllumber.com.

[Larry Fox]

Kenny, I can't answer all of your questions but I can take a crack at some of them. First let me say that I have never built a set of cabinets before but I am about a month or so into my research/design as I am building a set for my kitchen over the winter. There are guys on this site who have built cabinets which are nothign short of art and perhaps they can share some tips/pics.

First thing, I recommend you get your hands on a copy of (or something similar).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1561584703/104-1888505-3730309?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance

Product Details


Paperback: 176 pages
Publisher: Taunton (April, 2003)
Language: English
ISBN: 1561584703
It is not a fantastic book and I would not use it as the gospel but the author brings up some things that I would have never thought of and would have likely only discovered by making a costly mistake. It also gives you a sense of scale which I did not have before reading it.

Another thing that occurs to me reading your post is you might need to add some items to your shop (don't we all). You say that you have a 10" saw but do you have a way to support the sheets of plywood that you will need to cut? Cuts can get really dicey without it. You don't mention how you will be doing the joinery on the face frames. The book I mention above recommends pocket-hole joinery - if you go that route you will need a jig. If biscuts, you will need to add a plate jointer. If M&T, depeding on how you cut them, you might need a jig and will definitely need a lot of time. Clamps, cabinet work seems to require a lot of clamps. While not strictly required, a CMS and way to make releatable cuts to length seems to be standard equipment for guys making cabinets.

As far as stock goes, if you are going with 3/4" thick elements, 4/4 stock should suffice. I am in the Philly area as well and I can tell you that you can definitely do better than $~3.00 for red-oak, especially common as you mention. Groffs has it for $1.75 per bd/ft (link below). They can joint and plane it for you but they charge $.30 per bd/ft (if memory serves). They are fantastic people to deal with also.

www.groffslumber.com (http://www.groffslumber.com)

From what I have seen and read, 8/4 and up really donesn't really come into play much when building cabinets. However, I defer to people who have actually done it for a definitive answer on that one.

If you want to go the route of rough lumber and surface it yourself - for my money - I would go into the used market and pick up a used jointer and planer on ebay or somewhere smilar. I would use it for the job and sell it when you are done (nothing to be ashamed of there). I have a planer but no jointer and believe that is what I am going to do. The cost will likley work out in your benefit. For my project, a 6" jointer will do just fine. I assume that I can get a decent one in the used market for $~400 (or less). Say I use it for the job and have to take a 25% hit when I go to resell it. So I get $300 for it. I then estimate the time that I would have to spend with the hand plane and I believe it will work out to be worth it over the life of the project.

Anyway, those are my thoughts after reading your post - I hope it helps.

L

[Kenny King]

Thanks all for the great responses. Larray, I contacted Groff and they have #1 walnut for $1.75 BF ruff-sawn. They only charge $ .20 /BF to plane it (both sides), so that would only be about $20 for 100 BF of wood.

Groff's doesn't have any quantitiy of #1 red oak right now, but walnut sounds fine.

I have two books on cabinets already. One by Tolpin which covers traditional cabinetry

1. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1561580589/104-0332405-2171132?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

and the other by Danny Proulx on 32 mm, or frameless cabs

2. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0973186909/104-0332405-2171132?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

I've already drawn up the plans to do a hybrid version. Framless cabinetry with a 3/4" inch framing I can extend widthwise to match up to adjoining walls and to space between adjoining cabinets and between appliances.

I'm with you jeff. I like the knots and the odd colored wood. I think it'll give the cabinets some character.

Mike, thanks for the suggestion. VA is a little far for me. Looks like Groff's is going to be able to help me. I also plan on checking out Hearne's and Bucks County Hardwoods.

- Kenny King

[Larry Fox]

Glad that they were able to help you. But, actually it would be $200 for 100 bd/ft. :)

[Bill Antonacchio]

Hi Kenny,

I have used Groff & Groff several times for White Oak, Poplar, Hard Maple and have been very happy with the service. Once I had a bad piece sent to me and when I called and spoke with Sharon she more than made it right as she said she would.

This is sight unseen and shipped to me via UPS!

One thing I might suggest since you can't plane or joint the boards your self, as I can't, what I have done is ordered them S3S (surfaced three sides) @ $.30 bd. ft. which would only add $10.00 to your $20.00 finishing charge. Then you have a reference edge to work with.

Regards,
Bill Antonacchio

[Larry Fox]

Wow Kenny - I think I need to apologize. I replied that you were off by a factor 10 in your calculations. After reading Bill's post, it seems I am the one who is off. I thought you were talking about $20.00 for both wood and surfacing and you were just talking about the surfacing. Doh - sorry.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Kenny, Bill has a wonderful point, if they will S3S the wood, the extra $0.10 bf would be worth it!

[Kenny King]

Jeff, Bill, Larry

Thanks again. S3S would help alot. I would never have guessed.

Larry, no worries, good scare though :)

Do you think #1 walnut will be a good choice? I could post another topic, but I'm not sure ... it might be better to keep everything in one thread.

- Ken

[Scott Loven]

Glad that they were able to help you. But, actually it would be $200 for 100 bd/ft. :)
I think he was talking about $20 for having the boards planed on both sides, probably skip planed. A jointer will give you flat sides on your boards, having the lumber yard plane the rough boards will give you smooth sides, but not flat boards. You need both.
Scott

[markus shaffer]

Kenny,

Along the lines of what Scott Loven has said, I think most lumberyards have multisided planers. Perhaps someone here will correct me if I'm wrong, but a lumberyard where I used to buy my stock had a two sided planer. They would run rough cut stock through it for a fee... something like .25 cents a foot or so.. The problem was, if the board was crooked to begin with, it came out surfaced but still crooked. So S2S to me wasn't such a good deal. I still had to run it through my jointer and planer to get it straight and square. This might be where Dev would chime in as he would probably know more about these machines than I do. Personally, I'd rather make all my own stock square.

I would second the suggestion that you find a used jointer. For what you'll be saving building rather than buying your cabinets will offset that cost easily. From what you've added about your shop, I'd consdier a few other things as well. A good set of clamps is necessary. Bessey K-Bodies or the like are choice but not necessary. Also, consider a pockethole jig. The new Kreg K3 looks nice, but might be more than you want to spend. If you're going to be doing raised panel doors, consider your bits wisely. If you get large bits and your router doesn't have speed control, that's going to be a problem. A good guide for your circular saw will be important to break down sheets of ply and then do your final trimming on the tablesaw.

Good luck.

-Markus

[Jim W. White]

Kenny,

The only problem I see with using #1 common black walnut is that your going to get a LOT of sapwood. The difference between the sapwood and heartwood in black walnut is very dramatic.

While I see no real issues with these differences in the face peices; when gluing up the panels for the doors and drawer fronts your going to have to be much more picky. If I was ordering #1 common of any specie for a project I would bump the board footage by 20%. .....for Black Walnut I would bump it even more (~30-40%)

This is NOT to say that you shouldn't use the 'common' black walnut. I think you actually get much better looking sticks (more character) out of a 'common' pile of black walnut than you do the first and seconds; you just need to take into account that you'll have some 'fallout' due to knots, sapwood, checking, twist, cup and bow.

My 2 cents,

Jim W

[Kenny King]

Jim

Thanks for the post. I was wondering about sapwood since I've seen it mentioned a couple of times.

What is bad about sapwood as compared to heartwood. I understand what it is, but I don't know why it's not desireable. Lots of knots? Bad color? Unstable?

Will I be able to tell the difference between the heartwood and sapwood? What do you look for?

Markus

I'll give the lumber company a call and ask them about what the planing does. I assumed I would be getting a squared piece of wood. Thanks for looking out for me.

- Ken

[Jim W. White]

Black Wlanut's heart wood is a rich dark brown with hues of purple. The sapwood is very light colored (almost white). It will be obvious if you are allowed to pick through the boards; but most suppliers frown on TOO much picking through the "common" stacks as that's part of what's built into the price (within reason):o

[Charlie Plesums]

I recommend that you invest in a jointer and planer. Even though I buy a lot of wood S3S, I still have to joint it to get it straight and square, and plane it to get it so consistent thickness. If your wood is ABSOLUTELY flat and square, the cabinets will be far easier and come out better.

The iron on veneer tape will save you a huge amount of cost and time to edge band the carcass. The old steam and dry model that died for clothes works fine in the shop. If you need a profile on the edges, or the edges will be subject to exceptional wear, your plan is good, but for frame-less euro style cabinets, the doors protect the edges.

For red oak, I use #1 Common, because sapwood is less of a problem, and I will be using lots of small pieces building doors. My last order for 100 bf of #1C was 1.99 S3S delivered.

For walnut, the government said the white sapwood is not a flaw in the wood, but if someone is expecting a brown walnut door and gets one that is half white, they might disagree about whether it is a flaw or not. Other than color, sapwood is not a problem. But I am having trouble finding good walnut (without lots of sapwood) in any grade at a reasonable price (up to $4 or $5 rough sawn).

[Kenny King]

OK, I'm with you on the planing and jointing. I checked out home depot to see if they rent a jointer or planer, but no luck. There's Diamond rental in our area, they might be able to rent me one for a day.

I'm wondering if I can still do what i need to with what I have and a little creativity. Let's say I have the boards surfaced on 2 sides slightly thicker than 3/4". Given that the boards have been banned sawn at the mill, wouldn't the thickness of the boards be uniform enough after surfacing that I could hand plane them to the final thickness? I saw someone mention a book on Handplanes and was considering it as a possibility.

I re-read Jim Tolpin's book, Building traditional Kitchen Cabs, and he recommends getting the boards surface planed slightly oversized and then jointing the edges. I just bought the Dewalt 618 3PK which should be able to edge the ends very nicely using a jointing jig and a split-fence on a router table.

The part I'm not sure about is the surfacing. Does the 2S surfacing flatten the boards enough for cabinet work? With some modest sanding and perhaps planing, couldn't I get a nice flat surface to work with, or am up the creek without a planer, i mean paddle :)?