So I told the boss....

[jack duren]

I wanted a $40 a week tool allowance to maintain tools and purchase things as time goes on. His comment was make a list. A list is just a way to pick and choose what they want versus what I need. So I thought I'll just give him a Lee Valley.Grizzly, etc catalog and say I want everything...;)

But okay a long list it will be:D..

So I know I want a Amana forstner bit set. A triple set of Bow Clamps Metric and standard drill bits,etc

Help me make a list........

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I wanted a $40 a week tool allowance to maintain tools and purchase things as time goes on. His comment was make a list. A list is just a way to pick and choose what they want versus what I need. So I thought I'll just give him a Lee Valley.Grizzly, etc catalog and say I want everything...;)

But okay a long list it will be:D..

So I know I want a Amana forstner bit set. A triple set of Bow Clamps Metric and standard drill bits,etc

Help me make a list........

Doesn't the company you work for purchase the tools/tooling you need to work? Maintenance as well? I'd never expect my guys to work without the necessary stuff to do what they need to do.

If you want to get some really good Forstner bits, buy these..http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=62137&cat=1,180,42240

[Martin Wasner]

You should be supplying basic hand tools, and a cordless drill in my shop. (And any shop I've worked in for that matter.) Chisels, squares, hammers, putty knife, etc. The rest is either because you don't want any of the cretins you work with screwing it up, or you just like having your own stuff.

If you came to me and wanted a dollar an hour raise just for tools, I'd probably laugh at you though.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

You should be supplying basic hand tools, and a cordless drill in my shop. (And any shop I've worked in for that matter.) Chisels, squares, hammers, putty knife, etc. The rest is either because you don't want any of the cretins you work with screwing it up, or you just like having your own stuff.

If you came to me and wanted a dollar an hour raise just for tools, I'd probably laugh at you though.

So you require your employees to buy their own hand tools? Wow. I even buy all the saftey gear for my guys (gloves, glasses, ear protection, respirators etc). Plus tapes, knives etc.

Id never expect someone working for me in the shop, to have to supply their own tools. Neither did my father.

I take the guys for lunch every Friday too, though :)

[Phillip Mitchell]

I'm confused. Wouldn't you know exactly what tools you're in need of based on past experiences/projects? We may have a hard time determining exactly what you may or may not need for what you do.

Why not just ask for the stuff you need to get the jobs done, instead of working it into an allowance? Maybe I don't understand what your role is in the company, though.

I work for a company and supply a lot of my own portable/hand tools, but they are also well outfitted with plenty of specialty tools for the jobs we do that I don't have and can't afford. I have co workers who don't own many of their own tools. I personally use my tools elsewhere and at home, plus I am the type of person who works more efficiently with my own tools that I know and maintain personally. I take pride in owning my own tools that I can choose to let someone use (or not use) and that will provide me with greater flexibility and opportunity should I work somewhere else or for myself in the future

What do you do at work the most that seems lacking bc of inadequate tools? Maybe we are talking about different kinds of tools.

Side note - It sounds like Andrew is a good guy to work for ;) Where do you take your crew to lunch?

[Dave Zellers]

Side note - It sounds like Andrew is a good guy to work for ;) Where do you take your crew to lunch?[/QUOTE]

Was just thinking the same thing! THAT'S how you run a business!

[Martin Wasner]

So you require your employees to buy their own hand tools? Wow. I even buy all the saftey gear for my guys (gloves, glasses, ear protection, respirators etc). Plus tapes, knives etc.

Id never expect someone working for me in the shop, to have to supply their own tools. Neither did my father.

I take the guys for lunch every Friday too, though :)

Every shop is different. My theory is that tools that are yours, you treat differently than if they belong to that incompetent boob that writes you a check every week. Mechanic's spend $20k or more on tools, what's a couple hundred on some basics?

Depends on the position too. The difference between what a guy on a bench needs versus someone in a door department needs is vastly different.

You're required by law to provide safety equipment, I wouldn't use that as much of a benchmark.


Side note Andrew, did you ever get your omga to stop whistling? I've got one that is a screamer. It's in that guard somewhere. The one that's on my bench has no guard whatsoever, no whistle. The other's, depending on blade, freaking howl.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Side note - It sounds like Andrew is a good guy to work for ;) Where do you take your crew to lunch?

Was just thinking the same thing! THAT'S how you run a business![/QUOTE]

We generally go to a truck stop diner, that's about 15 minutes drive from work. My shop is just outside the city we live in (about 50,000 population). This diner has awesome food, very busy. We have to leave to get there just before noon or we don't get a table. Lots of tradespeople (mainly mechanical as we are predominantly a mining town) go to eat there.

Nothing fancy, but generally a $50 to $60 lunch with a tip. (three of us).

I feel in a small business like I operate, where I cannot pay for things like dental care, eyeglasses etc (too much for me to have a benefits package for my guys), I treat them as best as I can afford to. They get treated well, have a good environment to work in, and also have use of the shop after hours to do what they want to - either for themselves of some paying work too). Plus generally materials at cost. Dont worry, they arent going to try and run their own side business out of my shop, lol. We all have younger families and are busy as heck after working hours. Butm a smaller job here and there puts a few extra bucks into their pockets and we are generally months backed up, and so it doesnt take away from the shop's workload.

Everyone is different. I would find it weird not to supply all the tools, though. I am pretty particular how I want things done, and with what. I doubt they would pony up the $$ to buy tools like I have in the shop. But they take care of things as if it were their own. Its a small custom shop and I am there always. Im not worried about abuse.

I treat them like I'd like to be treated, and it has served me well for 20+ years Ive been in business. Also similarly the way my dad ran the company. Not for everyone.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Every shop is different. My theory is that tools that are yours, you treat differently than if they belong to that incompetent boob that writes you a check every week. Mechanic's spend $20k or more on tools, what's a couple hundred on some basics?

Depends on the position too. The difference between what a guy on a bench needs versus someone in a door department needs is vastly different.

You're required by law to provide safety equipment, I wouldn't use that as much of a benchmark.


Side note Andrew, did you ever get your omga to stop whistling? I've got one that is a screamer. It's in that guard somewhere. The one that's on my bench has no guard whatsoever, no whistle. The other's, depending on blade, freaking howl.


I wasnt aware of the safety gear thing being mandatory - we've always bought the supplies anyhow so its a moot point. I dont like crap. I buy good gloves (the MEchanix work gloves in various thicknesses - between $20 and $30 a pair up here.. and we go through several hundred dollars worth yearly) and good everything. I like to work in a comfortable, pleasant environment. And I dont expect my guys to work in any less. Never said I was a good businessman, lol.

As for the Omga chop saw, I find the blade makes a difference. Similarly with the RAS. Some blades howl, and some not so much. I think I have a Forrest chopmaster on there right now (good for smaller trim and framing, too many teeth for larger pieces though) it is very quiet. I'd never run that saw without a guard personally. I'm a safety minded guy, though. By the book.

[Dave Zellers]

Perfect.

And awesome. This is how the west was built. It's worth saving.

[Bill Dufour]

You should be supplying basic hand tools, and a cordless drill in my shop. (And any shop I've worked in for that matter.) Chisels, squares, hammers, putty knife, etc. The rest is either because you don't want any of the cretins you work with screwing it up, or you just like having your own stuff.

What country do you live in? Interesting to see how different parts of the world have different expectations of what you supply to the worksite. Auto mechanics are expected to supply most of their hand tools. Aircraft mechanics are often forbidden to bring any tools to the workplace for safety and tagout reasons.

[Rick Fisher]

I have a couple of lumberyards.. if you supply free gloves, tapes, knives and snips, you will go through thousands of dollars worth each year.. if you supply an allowance once a year or twice a year.. you will save thousands..

[Rick Potter]

About that OMGA. I recently put a new blade on my RAS, and it turned into a screamer. Took it off. Later I figured out that the blade stiffener that worked fine on the first blade had covered part of the laser cut noise squiggles on the new blade. Put it back on without the stiffener....quiet as can be.

Maybe doesn't apply here, but thought I would mention it.

[Rod Sheridan]

I have a couple of lumberyards.. if you supply free gloves, tapes, knives and snips, you will go through thousands of dollars worth each year.. if you supply an allowance once a year or twice a year.. you will save thousands..

Exactly what I did, staff received an annual tool allowance for hand tools, and were subject to 2 inspections per year to verify that they had all the items on the required tools list.

It's amazing how losses drop once they have ownership of the issue. The tool allowance was enough to cover routine wear and tear as well as leaving a surplus for expansion of the tool selection.....Rod.

[Justin Ludwig]

So you require your employees to buy their own hand tools? Wow. I even buy all the saftey gear for my guys (gloves, glasses, ear protection, respirators etc). Plus tapes, knives etc.

Id never expect someone working for me in the shop, to have to supply their own tools. Neither did my father.

I take the guys for lunch every Friday too, though :)

+1

I only have one guy though. But if I had more, I'd do the same.

[jack duren]

Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of tools. I'm looking for odds and ends to comlete this area to make it more efficient.

[jack duren]

You should be supplying basic hand tools, and a cordless drill in my shop. (And any shop I've worked in for that matter.) Chisels, squares, hammers, putty knife, etc. The rest is either because you don't want any of the cretins you work with screwing it up, or you just like having your own stuff.

If you came to me and wanted a dollar an hour raise just for tools, I'd probably laugh at you though.. Nobody is laughing here. Both formans thought it was a great ideal.

[Martin Wasner]

. Nobody is laughing here. Both formans thought it was a great ideal.


To me, asking for a tool allowance just sounds like an excuse for wanting more pay, but you don't feel you're justified in asking for a raise. I'd just ask for a raise, and when somebody in charge makes a comment about a new widget, your response should be that you're putting your raise to good work. THAT, would impress the snot out of me anyways.

[Pat Barry]

For a business I can't think of any reason for them to just buy a bunch of tools that may or may not get used in any planned fashion. Most businesses would want to justify each expenditure - charge it to a customer as an NRE charge or tooling cost for their order. No one wants to inflate their overhead just because there are a few cool / nice to have tools. If you think you NEED them then you should be able to JUSTIFY why

[John Vernier]

To me, asking for a tool allowance just sounds like an excuse for wanting more pay, but you don't feel you're justified in asking for a raise.

One employer offered me a tool allowance as an alternative to a raise. It was an idea he had encountered in his early employment, and I'm doubtful of the legality of it: the idea being that the company would occasionally buy me tools, based on a budget commensurate with a pay raise, and the expense would be a business misc expense and not be part of my pay for tax purposes. This would have been a small cost benefit to him and to me. We never implemented the idea, though, and as I say, I don't think it would be entirely above-board, but I wonder if it's a practice others have encountered.

[jack duren]

Never mind....Ask for a list,but most seem lost on the question...

[Martin Wasner]

One employer offered me a tool allowance as an alternative to a raise. It was an idea he had encountered in his early employment, and I'm doubtful of the legality of it: the idea being that the company would occasionally buy me tools, based on a budget commensurate with a pay raise, and the expense would be a business misc expense and not be part of my pay for tax purposes. This would have been a small cost benefit to him and to me. We never implemented the idea, though, and as I say, I don't think it would be entirely above-board, but I wonder if it's a practice others have encountered.

I think that's legal. It's barter. Dave would know for sure.
You gave him time, he gave you tools. You saved 30(ish) percent in taxes, he saved 7.65% in payroll taxes, plus he wrote off the expenditure. When I was a first year apprentice I bought a ton of stuff that way.

[Dave Sabo]

For a business I can't think of any reason for them to just buy a bunch of tools that may or may not get used in any planned fashion. Most businesses would want to justify each expenditure - charge it to a customer as an NRE charge or tooling cost for their order. No one wants to inflate their overhead just because there are a few cool / nice to have tools. If you think you NEED them then you should be able to JUSTIFY why

So, what if I'm your lucky customer that gets to pay for new seals in your nailers, new pads on your sanders, a motor on your air compressor, battery for the drill all because they decided to go tits up while you were working on my project ?

Certainly you're not replacing those on regular intervals as a preventive measure and applying that to general overhead are you?

I think the OP was just looking for control of some of the overhead expenditures that directly affected him.

Sounds like too many around here manage with the plantation mentality system. To each his own.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Never mind....Ask for a list,but most seem lost on the question...

I suggested the Colt Maxi-cut Forstners. Ive bought a lot of american and even Euro made bits. But these German made ones just work so much better. And last. Butm if you looked at the link, they are not inexpensive...

Its hard to suggest tools when (A) I have no idea what your job is, and (B) I have no idea what you already have.

Do you do a fair bit of hand work? I have probably 20 Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen hand planes in our shop, a ton of measuiring and layout tools, several hand saws etc. Are you more looking for power hand tool suggestions or pure hand tools?

I hate to say it (again due to the cost) but I find the Festool drill bits the absolute best for wood. I used to think our two kits of Lee Valley brad points (a kit they resharpen from a quality twist drill kit) were it, but after a few sets of the Festool ones, I think they cut better and leave an even cleaner entry (and more importantly, exit) hole.

Give a bit of guidance and Ill suggest more.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I have a couple of lumberyards.. if you supply free gloves, tapes, knives and snips, you will go through thousands of dollars worth each year.. if you supply an allowance once a year or twice a year.. you will save thousands..




Lumberyard VS small custom woodworking shop = two entirely different worlds. I understand my way of working wont work for everyone else and certainly not in a larger place with varying people of varying degrees of care.

[Jim Becker]

Never mind....Ask for a list,but most seem lost on the question...
Jack, providing a list to you from "our" point of view is difficult because we don't know what you have, what you do and what you might need. I know you work professionally, but the details are not there, at least for me.

The rest of the discussion has been somewhat interesting about what employers might or might not provide and there's no harm in that. The different points of view clearly show that there's a broad spectrum of what happens and what folks might consider appropriate or advantageous.

[jack duren]

Jack, providing a list to you from "our" point of view is difficult because we don't know what you have, what you do and what you might need. I know you work professionally, but the details are not there, at least for me.

The rest of the discussion has been somewhat interesting about what employers might or might not provide and there's no harm in that. The different points of view clearly show that there's a broad spectrum of what happens and what folks might consider appropriate or advantageous.

It's not difficult. There are a lot of small tooling that gets lost out there. I'm looking at Bow Clamps,Forstner bit sets,miter/spring clamps,Brad point bit sets,etc. The little things that get pieced out over years and I just want to get the whole sets.

I never know if I'll need metric drill bits or standard because it changes daily. So I'm looking at sets.. But what sets?

Suggestions help. A lot of things get missed until a topic comes up..I just never thought to take notes...

I know about every tool in a cabinet and commercial shop used. So it's more towards furniture and veneering...

[Jim Becker]

You have some good examples there that sound like things that you personally perceive as being helpful in the work you do, but not currently available "off the rack" in the shop. I have a set of BowClamps...they are really nice, although I haven't used them a large amount of time because many of "my" projects haven't needed them. Even as a small time hobbyist, I find having a ton of small ~4" F-clamps handy for many things and I use four ~8" give or take Quick Clamps regularly, too. You mention things like miter/spring clamps. While I don't have any of what I think you mean, for folks do do work that can benefit from them, by all means have them on "the list"! I like my bench hold-downs and may buy a couple more because of how handy and quick they are to use...sometimes only two available is constraining to me because I don't just use them to hold down a workpiece; sometimes they get active use in assembly. For me, at least.

Drill bits present a conundrum...do you buy reasonably priced sets so you have general utility across a broad range or buy the really good ones. My approach has been a combination. For those few sizes of bits I use a lot, I try to buy much higher quality so they stay sharp and cut clean with repeated use. For the rest, the more budget version has worked out well. Right now, I need to acquire a few better quality brad-point bits because I buggered the budget ones I've had for a bit (pardon the expression...) and feel a great loss not having that type available. Lee Valley has some interesting offerings in sets, but there are many sources from retail to industrial for that kind of tooling.

In my mind, a furniture/cabinetmaker who works for others can be well served by having some "personally chosen" hand tools where the design and feel is fitted to the user. Things I would include in that are a quality low-angle block plane, a set of quality chisels that feel good in one's hand (they all feel and handle different as each of us have hands that are different), the type of marking tool you prefer, etc. Basic stuff that's also easy to transport to and from work to protect the investment. Having personally chosen versions of these things can help with quality of work because any tool that's being employed for precision that is uncomfortable to use will not meet the goal. While my shop has a nice sliding table saw and J/P, etc., my Low Angle block plane gets a lot of use. And lately, I've identified that I'd like to get a few butt chisels to compliment my regular sized chisels in close quarters situations. They have to feel comfortable in my hand, however, so it's something I'm going to be very careful about with identifying the right ones for my use.

A lot of this revolves around how you work now and how you would like to work better. Get the things that will improve your situation. Think about what's missing from the kit available to you now that you feel would kick things up a notch, either (or both) for quality and efficiency. Aside from the "personal comfort" aspect that I've mentioned, try to fill in the gaps where you perceive that something is missing specifically for the work you are being asked to do.

[Pat Barry]

So, what if I'm your lucky customer that gets to pay for new seals in your nailers, new pads on your sanders, a motor on your air compressor, battery for the drill all because they decided to go tits up while you were working on my project ?

Certainly you're not replacing those on regular intervals as a preventive measure and applying that to general overhead are you?

I think the OP was just looking for control of some of the overhead expenditures that directly affected him.

Sounds like too many around here manage with the plantation mentality system. To each his own.
Right - maintenance items are a different story but thats not what the OP was asking about. He was asking for a tool budget. No need for the "plantation mentality" references. Thats just a weak way of undermining someones point without much thought involved.

[Dave Sabo]

Right - maintenance items are a different story but thats not what the OP was asking about. He was asking for a tool budget. No need for the "plantation mentality" references. Thats just a weak way of undermining someones point without much thought involved.


Well..............he kinda did :

"I wanted a $40 a week tool allowance to maintain tools and purchase things as time goes on."


And I the the ref. was totally warranted. Some of the comments on here were just veiled variants of "I'm the boss , you should be thankful you have a job " or "no way you're getting any more money". And none of us have any idea about the OP's skill level , commitment to the company , or pay level.

Keeping a skilled worker happy, motivated and more productive for an xtra $2k a year is pretty cheap in my book. Are you "bosses" out there saying you're more adept at deciding what tools need maintaining or buying for all the workers ? How could you possibly know that if you're doing your job - running and growing the business. Micromanaging little details like whether to change out the sanding pad , or use brand X discs instead of Y , or purchase a rabbet plane because you're the boss is exactly a plantation mentality.

Heck; even if you went $20/week and gave him something he wanted you'd still maintain that boss control because you won the negation. Perhaps I'm just in a market where workers have mobility because there's plenty of work and not enough talent to fill the slots. Dissatisfied guys will leave but will also drag down morale before they do.

[Mark Wooden]

It sounds to me like your're asking about both consumables and specialized hand tools.

Consumables-drill bits, countersinks, router bits, cope & jigsaw blades, battery drill & screw bits(I feel drills should be shop supplied), card scrapers, files, knife blades, sharpening stone, set of bench chisels, bench plane & irons, ROS & paper, air tools and nailers- all supplied by the shop for exclusive use by the worker at that bench. Shop also supplies all clamps.
How the tools are used and kept are part of the employees continuing evaluation.

Layout tools- good quality square(s), rules, marking knives, nail sets, compass, dividers (small set, large are shop owned) scribes, block planes, hammer, handsaw(s), chisels, (sharpening paid by shop) and whatever smalls are favored by the particular worker- these should be in the employees tool box, used as needed to produce the work required. Shop will often pick up the cost of replacement and upgrades.

Specialized layout tools, specialized hand tools (as would be used in veneering)- again, these should be shop owned, supplied and maintained- layout rules 24" & up, protractor heads, steel(framing)square, spring mitre clamps, veneer saws and hammer, good quality paint brushes, etc..

Sorry, but it sounds like you're looking to line your tool kit at the bosses expense. You should talk to your boss about tools you need to do his work, not just a bunch of nice stuff for you to have.
Case in point- I had a guy work for me for about four months, said he was a cabinetmaker. Showed up with a rusty hammer and a few beat screwdrivers. I set up a bench as described and set him up with a good Starrett combo set , set of four Marples chisels , small back saw, etc.. Started training him in their use. He disappeared one Friday, and so did about $500 worth of tools- and he never really did make me any money per se-

[Rick Malakoff]

When I had a shop and trucks with 6-8 guys the only thing I refused to buy were pencils and tape measures and on Friday morning I picked up breakfast burritos!
Before that when I was a young and hired out for lack of my own work I always brought my personal tools to the job, but not so much as when doing cabinet shop work. JMTC

Rick

[jack duren]

I gave him a partial list just to see where it goes..

Robert Larson Company 560-3250 Miter Clamp We make a lot of chalk boards for Chilli's
Bow clamps as we make a lot of 30"x12' torsion boxes...
Amana 15pc FO-700
Metric/standard/brad point drill sets.

Any ideals on the drill bit sets?

I actually need a good hole saw kit as well...

[jack duren]

It sounds to me like your're asking about both consumables and specialized hand tools.

Consumables-drill bits, countersinks, router bits, cope & jigsaw blades, battery drill & screw bits(I feel drills should be shop supplied), card scrapers, files, knife blades, sharpening stone, set of bench chisels, bench plane & irons, ROS & paper, air tools and nailers- all supplied by the shop for exclusive use by the worker at that bench. Shop also supplies all clamps.
How the tools are used and kept are part of the employees continuing evaluation.

Layout tools- good quality square(s), rules, marking knives, nail sets, compass, dividers (small set, large are shop owned) scribes, block planes, hammer, handsaw(s), chisels, (sharpening paid by shop) and whatever smalls are favored by the particular worker- these should be in the employees tool box, used as needed to produce the work required. Shop will often pick up the cost of replacement and upgrades.

Specialized layout tools, specialized hand tools (as would be used in veneering)- again, these should be shop owned, supplied and maintained- layout rules 24" & up, protractor heads, steel(framing)square, spring mitre clamps, veneer saws and hammer, good quality paint brushes, etc..

Sorry, but it sounds like you're looking to line your tool kit at the bosses expense. You should talk to your boss about tools you need to do his work, not just a bunch of nice stuff for you to have.
Case in point- I had a guy work for me for about four months, said he was a cabinetmaker. Showed up with a rusty hammer and a few beat screwdrivers. I set up a bench as described and set him up with a good Starrett combo set , set of four Marples chisels , small back saw, etc.. Started training him in their use. He disappeared one Friday, and so did about $500 worth of tools- and he never really did make me any money per se-



This isn't a cabinet shop...

[jack duren]

To clear this up.

This has nothing to do with a raised. If I want more money I'd ask.

[jack duren]

I suggested the Colt Maxi-cut Forstners. Ive bought a lot of american and even Euro made bits. But these German made ones just work so much better. And last. Butm if you looked at the link, they are not inexpensive...

Its hard to suggest tools when (A) I have no idea what your job is, and (B) I have no idea what you already have.

Do you do a fair bit of hand work? I have probably 20 Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen hand planes in our shop, a ton of measuiring and layout tools, several hand saws etc. Are you more looking for power hand tool suggestions or pure hand tools?

I hate to say it (again due to the cost) but I find the Festool drill bits the absolute best for wood. I used to think our two kits of Lee Valley brad points (a kit they resharpen from a quality twist drill kit) were it, but after a few sets of the Festool ones, I think they cut better and leave an even cleaner entry (and more importantly, exit) hole.

Give a bit of guidance and Ill suggest more.

I've always been an Amana guy. Do you feel the Colt Maxi-cut Forstners are better?

Hand planes are out. No time for this . We have Festool but haven't really dug into everything they have...

[Jim Becker]

r?

Hand planes are out. No time for this .

Jack, IMHO, every woodworker should have a quality block plane (I prefer the low angle version) to quickly deal with many things that come up when fitting materials for projects. It's not about working the material from rough to finished; rather, it's about precision. I rarely use my other, larger hand planes, although they do get use, but my block planes? Every project.

[jack duren]

Jack, IMHO, every woodworker should have a quality block plane (I prefer the low angle version) to quickly deal with many things that come up when fitting materials for projects. It's not about working the material from rough to finished; rather, it's about precision. I rarely use my other, larger hand planes, although they do get use, but my block planes? Every project.

Jim I've had hand planes for over 30 years. I have yet to find a reason to pull them out in the last 30 years.

Not trying to be smart here but here is a question....Do you think you need hand planes to reach my level or do I need hand planes to reach yours?

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I've always been an Amana guy. Do you feel the Colt Maxi-cut Forstners are better?

Hand planes are out. No time for this . We have Festool but haven't really dug into everything they have...

Everything I've used Amana, I've found better product elsewhere. That's my opinion. They're ok but not the best.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Jim I've had hand planes for over 30 years. I have yet to find a reason to pull them out in the last 30 years.

Not trying to be smart here but here is a question....Do you think you need hand planes to reach my level or do I need hand planes to reach yours?

how does one answer a question like that with many unknowns?

however I can't imagine not having a good sharp plane(s) in the shop. We're predominantly a wood and veneers shop with little melamine. Very well equipped for what we do. Prob not a day goes by one of us grabs a plane for at least one small job. Sometimes it's just a faster/easier/better way. Similarly with a hand saw. But not saying you need to as well. It's just another tool in the shop.

[Jim Becker]

Jim I've had hand planes for over 30 years. I have yet to find a reason to pull them out in the last 30 years.

Not trying to be smart here but here is a question....Do you think you need hand planes to reach my level or do I need hand planes to reach yours?
I thought I was being pretty clear that it was a suggestion for a small block plane to potentially be on your list, which I find to be an essential tool, even with all the great power tools I (and you) use in the shop to do the majority of the work we respectively do. It has nothing to do with our "levels of work" which wouldn't be fair to compare. I'm just a serious amateur who does woodworking for enjoyment and you are a pro who makes his living in woodworking. I've found that little tool to be very useful in fitting and other things in a wide variety of project types. I don't know if you will or not. Only you can do so.

[Neil Gaskin]

We have a Freud fostner bit set that I've been happy with. Same with Fisch brad point bits.

https://www.amazon.com/Freud-Precision-Serrated-Forstner-PB-100/dp/B0002TUFYK/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1492950024&sr=1-1&keywords=forstner+bit&refinements=p_89%3AFreud

[jack duren]

I thought I was being pretty clear that it was a suggestion for a small block plane to potentially be on your list, which I find to be an essential tool, even with all the great power tools I (and you) use in the shop to do the majority of the work we respectively do. It has nothing to do with our "levels of work" which wouldn't be fair to compare. I'm just a serious amateur who does woodworking for enjoyment and you are a pro who makes his living in woodworking. I've found that little tool to be very useful in fitting and other things in a wide variety of project types. I don't know if you will or not. Only you can do so.

You are correct, it was a suggestion. But as I mentioned hand planes are out...

[jack duren]

We have a Freud fostner bit set that I've been happy with. Same with Fisch brad point bits.

https://www.amazon.com/Freud-Precision-Serrated-Forstner-PB-100/dp/B0002TUFYK/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1492950024&sr=1-1&keywords=forstner+bit&refinements=p_89%3AFreud


At one time I was ordering a 35mm Amana bit and it was suggested by the salesman to get the Freud. He said they were better. I have never done a test on the forstner bits but have tested there panel bits and found Amana superior. Maybe its different on the forstner bits..

[Brian Holcombe]

Jim I've had hand planes for over 30 years. I have yet to find a reason to pull them out in the last 30 years.

Not trying to be smart here but here is a question....Do you think you need hand planes to reach my level or do I need hand planes to reach yours?

From bandsaw to this; three plane strokes.

That pile of shavings corresponds to the pile of lumber behind me.

https://brianholcombewoodworkerblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/img_6186.jpg

[jack duren]

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358740

[Brian Holcombe]

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358740

Best of luck to you.

[Mark Wooden]

The spring clamps you refer to are made by Ulmia, Larson is a reseller. Bought my first set about 20 years ago, now have three- shop tools



This isn't a cabinet shop.


Jim I've had hand planes for over 30 years. I have yet to find a reason to pull them out in the last 30 years.
30 years and you still don't know how to use them?

Lets see- bet you don't see any use for a jointer in a shop either, right?

Have fun with your shiney new tools.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

At one time I was ordering a 35mm Amana bit and it was suggested by the salesman to get the Freud. He said they were better. I have never done a test on the forstner bits but have tested there panel bits and found Amana superior. Maybe its different on the forstner bits..


Jack,
To be honest, although we have bought and used many Amana and Freud bits and some blades etc over the years I'd much rather purchase alternatives I find are better. For router bits, I find Dimar, Whiteside and a few others more to my liking. Onsrud and Royce/Ayr for my CNC bits. Ive had some larger Amana bits from their CNC line (insert VS brazed, better quality) not run as smoothly as some others.

Anyhow I really don't think you'll find a better Forstner than the Colt. Closest would be a set of Bormax (German as well IIRC) I bought through my Dimar dealer.

I'm not getting into a "hand tools war" lol. I know several shops like mine that are mainly machine oriented, that dont have a use for hand tools. Whatever works for you, I say.

As far as regular drill bits go, have you tried the Centrotec bits from Festool? They are great bits. I have a set of Imperial and Metric we sue mainly for on site/installs and hardware installation. They cut clean entry and exit. Work well for drilling through doors and drawers for hardware without chipping on either side, without a backup board.

[Phillip Mitchell]

This thread has taken a bad turn. There is no sense in disrespecting anyone on the forum, particularly Brian, who does some of the classiest woodworking out there and is quite prolific.

I think part of the issue here is that most people reading this are wondering why you're posting this question of what to buy. You haven't told us what type of work you do and what operations you might be less than efficient at or improperly tooled for.

After 30+ years woodworking, you don't know what consumable tools you need to get the job done?

Also, hand planes can be some of the most effective and efficient tools out there are for certain woodworking tasks. To write off all hand planes is foolish, in my opinion. Again though, we don't know what you're building and doing at work, so it's hard to say.