Why buy European machines?

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi folks.
I didnt want to hijack the other thread about seeing Euro machines, hence this one.

Every time I read a thread about high end Euro tools - sliders, combo machines, etc - I wonder to myself "Why does a hobbiest buy that stuff? Its expensive as heck. Does it really make that much difference?" Are these finely crafted machines like expensive cars, where some folks buy them just because the ARE the best? Or are there just a ton of advantages for a hobbyist shop; eg, a slider is safer for various jobs, etc?

Let me say a couple things up front. First, it's absolutely none of my business how folks spend their money. Second, Im just curious and trying to start an interesting discussion - I dont think there's a right or wrong answer here and I dont INTEND to sound critical, envious, etc.

Any thoughts?
Fred

[glenn bradley]

If nothing else, they involve a different approach to the tasks at hand. For the hobbyist, bigger doesn't always mean better. Quality is always quality and if the tool fits, the better quality machine would be preferred.

For the professional, the best tool for the job can mean more efficiency for specific task that is frequently repeated. With the exception of some dresser designs that I have gotten repeat calls for, my work is one-off. The tools that work better for my work may be a hindrance to someone else and vice versa.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I know this is nowhere in the ballpark of the Martin equipment, but my Hammer combo machine gets me a sliding table saw, 12" jointer and planer (with helical cutter), and shaper w/ sliding table.....for $10k, delivered, new. I don't think I could buy equivalent functionality in North American-style machinery for less money.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I don't have any euro machines, but I imagine it simply comes down to personal enjoyment for those who have the disposable income... for hobbyists at least. For production work, it's a very different decision.

[Martin Wasner]

Does it really make that much difference?

Yes it does. I'm not a hobbyist, but I wasted a lot of money on garbage tools. What you don't know, you don't know.

[mark mcfarlane]

If you're in the market for a 12" jointer and 12" planer, and a shaper, the Euro combo machines are competitively priced, and can be used in a smaller floor space. One power run and one DC run also saves money and a little space for piping.

For the table saw part, I also convinced myself that a slider would be safer than a SawStop due to the fact that your body never needs to be behind, or near the blade.

Ordered a MiniMax CU300 last week...

[Ray Selinger]

I'll start by saying I have no stationary European tools. But European tools have to meet stricter safety rules. Think why Sawstop. When it comes to power hand tools, it's almost like it's either German, or a neighbouring country, or Chinese.

[David Kumm]

Actually it is often Euro AND Chinese. Just how much of each. There is no truth in labeling there so the lower the price point the lower the German or Austrian content. Not a criticism, just a clarification of the thread. Should be high end rather than just Euro. In my world which is business and busy, good machines, new or old add a warm fuzzy feeling that is difficult to describe unless you are stressed out when you start them up. Old American industrial machines were every bit as good as German. Usually less complicated and way less complicated than English machines. Some of the best industrial machinery came from Japan but for obvious reasons never made it over here.

A machine that never goes out of adjustment, needs only one pass for a great finish, or is just fascinating to learn and understand the design and mechanics of, adds to the hobby. Different world when you need to make a living. Metalworking machines are even more complicated and the differences between great and horrible are even farther apart. Dave

[J.R. Rutter]

I've found European made machinery to be a pleasure to use vs Far East made. On many machines that I have used/compared, it is almost as if the cheaper version is a full-scale working model. Even things like the nuts and bolts are better/stronger on the Euro machines, not to mention the balance of drive components like sheaves. You can certainly produce equivalent work on both types of machinery, though, at least when they are new. And yes, I think this also applies to Euro brands made in China vs more budget brands.

[gordy haycock]

I bought a used Hammer sliding table saw (used maybe a dozen times and less than a year-old) and a 12" MiniMax jointer/planer (used maybe a dozen times and less than a year-old.) I paid about what I would pay or less for new Chinese made equipment, $5,000 for both.

They work flawlessly, stay in adjustment, easy blade changes (Tersa on the J/P) and rugged and heavy.

I'm glad I bought Euro equipment used. I really enjoy using them and I certainly like the added safety of the sliding saw and the Euro guard on the J/P. I searched for months before I found them.

[Ralph Okonieski]

I have a very small shop footprint. I bought a Euro combo (4 in 1) to save space. The slider is a true joy to work with. All four are very precise. I frequently check and re-check but have not found need to adjust settings. In my case, my skills improved considerably. For me, it was the right decision.

[Wayne Lomman]

Different places have different specialities. The European machines are robust and refined. They are trouble free, accurate and because of all this they are productive which translates to they pay their way. It is something the Europeans are good at.

In my current role, our machining centres are exclusively Japanese because they are best for our application. They are built extremely well. They need to be as we machine heavy steel castings up to 6000kg, day in day out.

Our abrasive blasting and industrial painting equipment is all from the USA as that is where the most reliable gear is from.

Our inputs, steels, paints, abrasives etc are usually Australian as that is the best. Cheers

[Mel Fulks]

Frederick, I see your post as polite skepticism. I don't see any advantages to the European stuff. After using jointers that remove an inch of wood in one pass ,it's difficult to see how 3/8" per pass is better. And if you think special concrete in a machine is good,please try Mechanite in an old one.

[Jim Becker]

Why buy a $10,000 Thermador 48" gas range instead of a GE Monogram or a Lexus instead of a Toyota? They function similarly, for sure, at least at the base level. It really comes down to what each of us want, prefer and ultimately can afford for any discretionary purchase for an avocation like woodworking or cooking or photography, etc. There have already been a number of good reasons that folks have provided as to why some people find value in Euro machines. For me, it was a combination of capacity vs space (for the J/P) and repeatable precision/safety (slider). At the time I bought, I was fortunate to have the money available. I don't regret it one bit. It's just a choice I made that was right for "me". And that's as good a reason as any. :)

[Dan Schmidt]

I'm a hobbyist and for me it's all about precision and pure enjoyment. I feel fortunate to have the discretionary income. Necessary? Absolutely not. It's just a choice in lieu of other things like a hobby muscle car restore, 5 star hotel vacations, designer clothes, huge motor home, etc. Life is all about choices..... Personally, I get a lot of enjoyment every time I lock the pneumatic clamps and push that sliding table with barely a finger...

[John Sincerbeaux]

Completely agree with Dan and Jim's comments.

[Darcy Warner]

I do not find Euro machines to be trouble free. In fact I seen to have to repair more issues on German an Italian machines than I do on older American stuff.

I have owned stuff from everywhere but China

[mark mcfarlane]

I do not find Euro machines to be trouble free. In fact I seen to have to repair more issues on German an Italian machines than I do on older American stuff.

I have owned stuff from everywhere but China

I subscribe to the Felder and Minimax groups and agree that 'trouble free' is probably an exaggeration.

[David Kumm]

Felder and Minimax are not exactly high end. Their best stuff is very good, but not Martin, Hoffmann, or Kolle. You can't lump all models together based on place of birth. Some of the Euro machines mentioned here are not really Euro and the middle models of Felder and MM are kind of like Mercedes C class vs a Martin S class. Dave

[Alex Snyder]

My slider was a safety purchase for me primarily. My wife got wise to the dangers of table saws and asked me to get something safer. Obviously the SawStop was a consideration, but I mill my own lumber and work with some freshly milled stuff from time to time. The benefits of easily ripping live edge boards is a plus. And I have found the Hammer K3 to be much easier to setup and realign than my old Powermatic saw. Trouble free is not a phrase I'd throw at it, but it isn't any more finicky than the Powermatic was.

I am now considering replacing my Powermatic jointer with a Felder jointer/planer combo mostly because of the 16" capacity, without taking up more room in the shop. I'll consider the Jet and Rikon versions too, but will probably save my pennies to go Felder.

My shop seems to be growing more and more European tools and that has nothing to do with nationality. I find Festool to be an incredible system, Wera to be superior screw drivers/wrenches for my needs, Bosch to fit a few niche spots, and of course the Hammer I mentioned earlier. But Dewalt remains my go-to battery-powered system, Woodpeckers my favorite measuring tools, and Bessey clamps it all together. And then there is Powermatic helping me with final milling and drilling. But I'm not exactly sure what country Powermatic is really considered a part of anymore?

[Frederick Skelly]

Felder and Minimax are not exactly high end. Their best stuff is very good, but not Martin, Hoffmann, or Kolle. You can't lump all models together based on place of birth. Some of the Euro machines mentioned here are not really Euro and the middle models of Felder and MM are kind of like Mercedes C class vs a Martin S class. Dave

Well, some of that confusion is just the OP's (my) ignorance showing. Sorry. What I was thinking of were tablesaws in the range of $5000 and up bought by hobbyists. (For me, that's a lot of money, so I'll just use that amount as an example.)

Edit: And again, please understand I don't intend any criticism - what hardworking, successful people spend their money on isn't my business.

I'm getting a lot of insights I didn't have before, reading all the responses, so thanks everyone.

Fred

[Andy Giddings]

Like Dan, I have a Hammer C3 combo machine. Certainly not high end as David mentions. For me the combo machine works very well given my limited space. I used a standard table saw for years and was happy with everything about it apart from cutting sheet goods. A slider makes sheet goods a lot easier and, as others have said, saw operations safer generally. I think the only way to understand why people buy expensive Euro brands (sliders, JP, combos) compared to the widely available regular brands is to get your hands on one. Not for everyone but I'd never switch back

[Brian W Evans]

For me, the (very recent) decision to go with European machines comes down to two things:

First, I started out using cheap tools and found that to be a very frustrating experience due to difficulty achieving / maintaining alignment, lack of power, parts breaking / flexing / etc. Eventually, after too many 'upgrades' to somewhat more expensive tools, I decided that a hobby should be enjoyable. What a revelation, right? I did a lot of research, waited a few years, watched a lot of videos, and ultimately decided that a sliding table saw was for me. I love my MM SC4 because it does what I want and need it to do, and does it well. There is no frustration - only enjoyment - and that is the crux of the matter.

Second, I had some practical considerations for choosing a slider. All of these are outlined elsewhere in this thread or others, but the most important consideration is that my sons like to work with me in the shop and I wanted something that didn't put them in the path of kickback or give them a reason to put their hands near a spinning blade. I know that it is entirely possible to use an American-style cabinet saw safely, but I think the European arrangement is better from a safety standpoint.

On a related note, there are some on this forum who look at those of us who buy expensive tools and gripe about people "having more money than sense." I understand this point of view because the world is full of people who spend money on things I think are insane. But I would respectfully say that we are talking about two different things here - some of us are talking about the most economical way to accomplish a task and therefore don't see the value in spending money that isn't absolutely necessary. Others among us are talking about the enjoyment of the task itself, which is a very different goal. There is a lot that both camps have in common, and therefore a lot of we can talk about and share with each other. Sorry if this was off-topic.

Fred, thanks for starting this discussion.

[Michael Koons]

Jumping in late but I'm one of those buyers who went through the same thought process and asked the same questions as the OP. I think the answer is different for different tools. My first purchase was a MM slider. At the time, I needed to upgrade a contractor saw and wanted to go very high end mostly for quality and power purposes. For the hobbyist, it's almost "all or nothing." I was looking at things like PM and it was around $4k for a nice cabinet saw. When I asked on this forum, it was introduced to euro saws and was intrigued. I made the decision to buy the MM and paid around $8k. It was probably the best WW purchase I made. I ended up loving the accuracy, the repeatability, the flexibility and the power. To the point where now, I'd like to upgrade to a 3ph, longer slider machine.

With the BS and J/P it was a different process because those don't fundamentally change the way you work like a sliding table saw does. But I was going from an 8" jointer and 13" benchtop planer. When it was time to upgrade, getting 16" jointers is hard with most hobbyist brands. The other thing for me is that I wanted to get away from the Chinese made machines. That's a personal thing that has to do with quality perceptions on my part.

For me it was personal preference and how I want to work doing an activity that I absolutely love.

[rudy de haas]

It's a no brainer: quality pays - and right now the high end of the quality range in the upper end of the hobbyist eqpt market comes from Germany or Austria. i.e. if you can afford it, this is the stuff to get. Personally, I can't afford it and can't justify the cost given my limited skills and the small amount of work I need to get done with each tool - but I'd get Hammer class tools in a heartbeat if it made work and financial sense.

Euro quality isn't magic, it's a regional economic strategy adopted in the 1960s in response to Japan's emergence as a volume producer of low quality products (like China today). At the time west Germany decided they had a skill advantage over the Japanese and pursued a national quality strategy whose fruits include today's Hammer combos.

However.. we're in a time of probable rapid change. In particular, the rapid evolution of robotics in manufacturing is driving a quality revolution in the United States that sets aside the labor cost advantage indochina relies on to sell product. I predict, therefore, that the world's best power tools will, by about 2022, come from the United States - not Germany, and not Taiwan.

[Peter Aeschliman]

To Dan's point, if I were starting completely from scratch today but with the commitment to woodworking that I now have, i would buy a 5 function Hammer machine (C3 31 comfort). For the same functionality and quality, it would be hard to spend less on separate machines. I know it's not perfect or "high end" but they sure are nice machines for the money.

But when I started out, I didn't know how much I would like woodworking. So plunking down $10k+ from the get-go would have been extremely foolish. Plus I didn't know what on earth a combo machine was at the time. So I did like most woodworkers and bought budget-level machines to start with, purchased one at a time incrementally.

I now have a shop that is stocked with all of the machines I need, and have upgraded over time. SS PCS, combo jointer planer, etc. I would have to sell my machinery at a steep loss in order to buy one of these machines now, only to get effectively the same functionality. So I just can't justify it.

This is why I always advise newbies to buy used machines. Because you can usually sell them for what you paid if you want to upgrade.

[John TenEyck]

It seems pretty simple to me. If you want a high quality machine you either buy an old American one or a new foreign one. Sadly, nobody in the US designs of makes anything better than the Unisaw/Powermatic type machines for the hobby market. The Europeans do, and there are some pretty good ones made in Asia, too. The Europeans have the engineering and manufacturing skills to build pretty high quality machines that are priced for well healed hobbiests. And they are likely to stay in the lead. Their combined management, engineering, and manufacturing skills are built around building high quality stuff at a reasonable price. There are some good machines made in Asia, too, but you have to look harder. The US? Can't think of one. And that's not likely to change. There are some great engineers here, some very good manufacturing, too. Focused, skilled management teams, however; not many, and none in the woodworking business. Until something changes the Europeans are likely to offer the best machines for well healed hobbiests.

I have a MM 14" J/P that I bought used for a reasonable price. If you want something wider than 12" who makes one for the hobby market? Europeans. If you want a sliding table saw, who makes one for the hobby market? Europeans and Asians. I doubt an American company is going to change the dynamic as the US market by itself isn't large enough to justify the investment. The Europeans have a large advantage in this regard because they have a fairly large domestic market. What they sell here is a bonus. The opposite isn't going to happen.

John

[Larry Edgerton]

Its a funny thing, a lot of the people that criticize me for what I pay for tools have a couple of snowmobiles in the garage, a boat in the back yard, and a motorcycle or two in the mix. All of which would buy a nice tool that lasts a lifetime. Its all about perspective.

20 years ago I bought a Artic Cat Sno-Pro 440 and a SCM planer with a Tersa head the same year, they cost about the same money. The snowmobile is long gone, two years and it was worn out, but that planer is still in my shop, and I still get kick out of its accuracy every time I use it. It will last me until I do not want to work with wood any more. At that time it will still be worth at least half of what I paid for it, and it will have contributed to hundreds of thousands of income.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I kind of take things with a grain of salt... especially when people start talking about machinery. WHat is "cheap" (quality, and/or cost) to one will be very good quality, or very expensive, to another.

Case in point. In our old shop we had a Sicar (Italian) 10' slider. My father bought new in 1988 for about $12,000 IIRC. Still running in the shop I sold back in 2010. I bought a new Griggio 10' slider in 2010, for my new shop, for $15,000 plus another $5,000 for the Tigerstop Tigerfence. $20,000 saw that should outlast me, in the business I am in (general woodworking shop, ie, cabinets and furniture and millwork) Im 46 and plan to work another 20 to 25 years.

The shop closest to me bought a new tricked out Felder slider two years ago for $45,000. So some say that isnt a top of the line saw... should have gotten a Martin. I say, the guy pulling in approx 2 million in sales per year (they do only cases for kitchens) with the saw running full shift daily) thinks his saw is pretty darn good. Too much $$ in my case, I spent half that and my saw still cuts as square, and as accurately I believe (but doesnt have a fancy screen, power tilt or cross cut stops).

Similarly, my Cantek (Taiwan) equipment wasnt what I'd call cheap. But, my planer and jointer for instance processes between 12 and 20 thousand Bfm a year (depends what were doing more of - cases or woodwork) and its just "cheap Asian stuff" to some, but cost me $20,000 which for a smaller shop is a sizeable investment, and it certainly does what we need it to do. The planer will hold an accuracy to within a thousandth (seriously) over the whole 20" and the electronic setting is quick and always right on.

I could have bought a European made planer only and spent more than my 16" jointer, and 20" planer combined. But it wouldnt make me any more $$, and I can't see being mare satisfied with a planer ans/or jointer than what I am now.

Our old Sicar shaper is running daily, after approching 30 years of use. No bearings, nothing... just cleaning and lubrication.

Some guys want or need the "best" in bearings, the heaviest castings, etc. All of which is fine if you have the finaces and want. If I werent trying to run a profitable business, I'd get stuff I don't really need but want, as well. But, again - take it for my opinion only - as someone who has been in the woodworking business since my early twenties, and grew up in the trade since childhood - there are a LOT of very profitable shops, making some very good quality product just fine, without any Martin machinery and even the Taiwan made stuff too.. :)

[Joe Calhoon]

Andrew makes some good points, high end machinery is not necessary to make a profit or do quality work for that matter. I got our business profitable and built our reputation with the basic Delta machines and later used American and Euro iron. I do confess to being a tool nut and do appreciate and enjoy using quality machinery. I can tell a difference from some of my previous machinery.

It depends on what type of machines we are talking about. I believe the US and some companies from the East make as good of CNC routers as what is available from Europe. When you are talking classic machines (jointer, planer, shaper, saws and etc) I think Euro is hard to beat. A lot of it is the engineering and function. The US made some heavy duty classic type machines that were from an era of mass production of wood products. Pretty much the design and engineering did not change from before WW2 till most of the companies went out of business in the 60s, 70s and later. These machines will outlast any of newer euro machines for sure but lacking in function, safety and engineering. I do like the old US iron for what I consider school shop machines, sanders, mortisers drill press etc. Hard to find new machines of this type that are as good as the old ones. The market is different for woodworkers now. The days of setting machines for long production runs is gone. Being versatile and efficient small batch production is where the pro shops have to be. Hobby shops also need easy change over and safety is always a factor.

There is a wide range of quality and price points from the Euro producers depending on your needs. If I had a large shop with a lot of employees I would probably in most cases not use Martin machines. A lot of the refinements and features would be wasted on a semi skilled workforce.

I get around to a lot of shops and like to try different machines. Here is one example of higher engineering from my Martin jointer. I have used a lot of old iron jointers and modern Italian jointers but have never found a jointer fence that moves as easy or stays as accurate as this one. It can be moved one handed and goes 0 to 45 degrees with one hand operation. Here is a picture with the back fence cover removed.
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[Andrew J. Coholic]

Just to be clear - Joe and others.. I completely agree that there are various levels of build and quality. But, it is not always necessary to have the utmost best to do the job needing to be done.

I'd love to have the best of everything - but having spent my allotted budget for my new shop, some things (like the $45K CNC shaper) were just out of the question. However, we manage to make some really nice doors, trim etc on our Cantek $7500 shaper.

If I were able to trade it in for your Martin you rebuilt, I'd do it :) But I can't say I "need" any more shaper for the work we do.

We've had a good mix over the years of some pretty decent US, European, and import stuff. I although I am not a machinery junky in terms of buying/hoarding I do attend the big US shows, and love to look at and investigate all sorts of machinery for our industry. If Money werent an object I'd spend a lot more of it, on Euro stuff. But, don't let not being able to afford the best stop you from doing some pretty decent work.

[jack duren]

To be a hobby woodworker and putting more into tooling than needed is the same as me being hobby bass fisherman with a $40,000 bass boat. A lot of guys have em but they tend to look the part but can't fish any better than the guy on the bank...

[Martin Wasner]

To be a hobby woodworker and putting more into tooling than needed is the same as me being hobby bass fisherman with a $40,000 bass boat. A lot of guys have em but they tend to look the part but can't fish any better than the guy on the bank...

I disagree and agree at the same time. If you've got no skills, the best tools aren't going to help, but at a certain point all the skill in the world isn't going to overcome the obstacle of crap tools. That goes for fishing gear to woodworking equipment. Bringing a knife to a gun fight kind of deal.

I was woefully ignorant in my expectations of equipment when I went on my own and now that I know more I'm forced to make decisions just like Andrew has. I spent $30k on panel saw. It's a great panel saw, but had I had the money, I probably would've almost doubled that expenditure. You do the best with what you can. The rub in that is that had I spent the extra money, I'm certain it would've paid for itself by now.

I'm cnc shopping, you can spend whatever you want there. It's all worth exactly what you pay. I'm going to end up with a midline cnc and are some point wishing I would've been more patient and gotten more machine.

[Roger Marty]

I disagree and agree at the same time. If you've got no skills, the best tools aren't going to help, but at a certain point all the skill in the world isn't going to overcome the obstacle of crap tools. That goes for fishing gear to woodworking equipment. Bringing a knife to a gun fight kind of deal.

I was woefully ignorant in my expectations of equipment when I went on my own and now that I know more I'm forced to make decisions just like Andrew has. I spent $30k on panel saw. It's a great panel saw, but had I had the money, I probably would've almost doubled that expenditure. You do the best with what you can. The rub in that is that had I spent the extra money, I'm certain it would've paid for itself by now.

I'm cnc shopping, you can spend whatever you want there. It's all worth exactly what you pay. I'm going to end up with a midline cnc and are some point wishing I would've been more patient and gotten more machine.

Nice tools save you time. A lot can be done with hand tools and cheap basic power tools, no?

[Martin Wasner]

Nice tools save you time. A lot can be done with hand tools and cheap basic power tools, no?

I'd be unemployed.

[Andy Giddings]

To be a hobby woodworker and putting more into tooling than needed is the same as me being hobby bass fisherman with a $40,000 bass boat. A lot of guys have em but they tend to look the part but can't fish any better than the guy on the bank...
Mmm, last time I checked a hobby was something you pursue for your own enjoyment. Fitness for purpose doesn't really enter into that arrangement as long as you're enjoying it, surely?

[jack duren]

There's a difference between good enough tooling and excessive.

[jack duren]

Nothing wrong with enjoying a hobby. But....Buying high end equipment won't make your skill level...

[Michael Rector]

I see this discussion in every venue.

He's a hobby photographer, why does he have a $10,000 camera?

He's a hobby musician, why does he have a $75,000 cello?

He's a hobby _______, why does he have a ________?

The answer is because he can. It doesn't make it right it doesn't make it wrong. If someone has been lucky enough or wise enough to have the money to buy something nice in an area they enjoy then my hat goes off to them.

The problem starts when we start judging them for it. There's a reason why there is a commandment "Thou shalt not covet".

I have a Bosch 4100 table saw, I'm saving for a Hammer K3 or Felder K500. This is just a hobby for me and there are literally dozens, maybe hundreds of table saws new and used between what I have now and what I want that would suit me to a T. The Hammer/Felder will be more expensive than a suitable alternative for what I truly need it for but I will take pleasure in owning it.

Maybe one day I'll reach a level of skill to justify my purchase, maybe I won't.

[David Kumm]

Seems like we have moved from judging machinery to judging the humans who buy it. Dave

[peter gagliardi]

Businesses live or die by efficiency. Better, faster, more accurate machines pay big dividends to downstream processing, saving time and rework.
Every level of machinery, is just another evolutionary level of using a better "rock". Sure there comes a level that quality of build that cancels out a higher level of machining precision.
For businesses, it is about time.
If I did this at a hobby level, I would own the best I could afford.
As a business, I do pretty much the same, though I like Joe, really like my tools- but I do have to make a cost/benefit analysis as part of the equation.
I did some really nice work with junk tools, years ago, but I worked a LOT harder, and had a LOT more frustration.
Life is really short, and if I am gonna be in this for a career, I would rather "drive a Mercedes across the country than a Yugo"
They will both get you there, but........

[Chris Parks]

I don't recall why the need was started but some years ago I decided I needed a slider and if you want a slider in Oz it is European or nothing. Asian machines are around but I have only seen one in the flesh and never seen an advert for one. I bought my slider and can truly say the difference in work practises and results is worth twice the money I paid and I smile every time I use it. Perhaps the biggest single advantage I find is I use the rip fence maybe once every few months as all the ripping I do is done on the table. Way more accurate and consistent and a thousand more times safer and faster. My A3-31 combination machine is beyond words in accuracy. It has taken a while but I now trust the thing enough to know I don't have to measure what comes out of the thicknesser because it is simply the correct dimension and repeatable months down the track. I like good things and it has taken a long while to get there and I do not apologise for owning and enjoying them. All my machines prior to what I have now were bought used and they did a good job, my present machines were bought new and I enjoy using them and I think that is the difference for me.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Seems like we have moved from judging machinery to judging the humans who buy it. Dave

Dave, I have always been of the mindset (another thing my father taught me) it does not matter what anyone else has or uses, buys etc. It only matters what you buy & use.

Again, my point is not to question what others suggest you need - but to temper that advice. Machinery is available at many price and quality levels. Someone might be happy with the lower end of things, someone else might not be happy unless they have what is considered the "best". Then there are guys like me, who fall somewhere in the middle.

As I said - I've been in many shops that run similar machinery to what I have, some much better, and many much worse. Everyone's needs and expectations are different. There is a huge difference between wanting the "best" and needing the "best".

If you are a hobbiest, or professional - and money isn't an object - the more power to you. But for the majority of working shops, cost VS wants VS needs always comes into play.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Businesses live or die by efficiency. Better, faster, more accurate machines pay big dividends to downstream processing, saving time and rework.
Every level of machinery, is just another evolutionary level of using a better "rock". Sure there comes a level that quality of build that cancels out a higher level of machining precision.
For businesses, it is about time.
If I did this at a hobby level, I would own the best I could afford.
As a business, I do pretty much the same, though I like Joe, really like my tools- but I do have to make a cost/benefit analysis as part of the equation.
I did some really nice work with junk tools, years ago, but I worked a LOT harder, and had a LOT more frustration.
Life is really short, and if I am gonna be in this for a career, I would rather "drive a Mercedes across the country than a Yugo"
They will both get you there, but........



But for many guys Peter, driving a GMC or Ford gets you there pretty nicely as well. :) My parents emigrated from Yugoslavia.. and I wouldnt want a Yugo either, lol. But we did pretty well for years with our mid line Italian equipment.

Sometimes I feel that the stuff most talked about is the really low end stuff and the really high end stuff. With the majority of gear - being somewhere within the 80% that falls in between those limits, not mentioned much. I find that odd. You don't usually go from the extreme bottom to the extreme top in many other things.

[Rick Fisher]

Back to the OP question.. People like me buy Euro machinery because they can. It is immensely superior to basic Asian machinery. I am getting rid of a Griggio 20" Planer for a Martin 24" planer next month (its enroute ) .. because its a far superior machine and its what I wanted.

I have a very good buddy who collects Italian Motorcycles .. Ducati, Guzzi .. stuff like that .. another has a boat that burns $100 an hour in fuel ..

European machinery ranges from Hammer to Martin.. The Martin Planer has a 10hp motor. It has a self lubricating planer bed.. and a Martin Xplane Helical head.. It has a numerical key pad to operate the cutting height.. I need this about as much as I need a $30,000 Harley Davidson...

[peter gagliardi]

But for many guys Peter, driving a GMC or Ford gets you there pretty nicely as well. :) My parents emigrated from Yugoslavia.. and I wouldnt want a Yugo either, lol. But we did pretty well for years with our mid line Italian equipment.

Sometimes I feel that the stuff most talked about is the really low end stuff and the really high end stuff. With the majority of gear - being somewhere within the 80% that falls in between those limits, not mentioned much. I find that odd. You don't usually go from the extreme bottom to the extreme top in many other things.
Andrew, I don't disagree with any of that. I have plenty of machines that would fall under "mid level" but as long as they produce a quality and accuracy that works, they stay. I only have a couple that would be considered "high end" . My Martin shapers, and Martin slider.
The saw has at this point, several other fairly competitive options in the market, but there currently, from what I can assess, is nothing that competes with the functionality and speed of the shaper- time savings are very obvious for my type of workload.
I still have bandsaws, jointers, and a planer, along with mortisers that are all at least 75 years old- That technology has not advanced enough, in my opinion to warrant the expenditure.

[Roger Marty]

I'd be unemployed.

No doubt!

I'm a hobbyist. Just ordered myself a SawStop PCS as a (safety) upgrade over my cheap Ridgid R4512. But you guys are making me wonder if I should have gotten a European combo machine! Don't think I'm ready for a $10k outlay though

[David Kumm]

At the hobby level, used Euro is a pretty good way to have good stuff at a price not much more than low end. My SCMI SI16 slider was about 5K- medium end but heavier than Felder 900 series but less than Martin or Altendorf. SCMI T130 slider and Martin T21 at about 4K each. SAC 530 planer for 4K. I'm not a bottom feeder so my costs are more than some others. With a little work and problem solving you can have the best of both worlds. Not for everyone and not great if you need to make money from machines, but the option is there. The 4-5K range is about what the quasi Euro Qing Dao produced stuff costs.

Andrew, Cantek is pretty nice stuff. I would put those Taiwan machines in the mid range Euro class. Dave

[jack duren]

If you are making a living, one should but the best one can afford.

[Mike Fritz]

Extreme Woodworker is starting what will probably be a great new series of videos on Youtube that turn all this good discussion into real demonstrations. His first video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_A24SfM5KI shows how to rip a live edge board on his Martin slider. His next video is the one I really want to see about the different ways to do rip cuts on the slider.

[Martin Wasner]

Are there rip saws made in Europe?

[Darcy Warner]

Are there rip saws made in Europe?

Scm m3 is probably one of the most recognizable gang rips from there.

The Japanese made some nice SLR's (kikukawa 3/4 scale mattison) I have one of their gang rip saws, pretty substantial machine that came from the factory with a 75hp motor.

[Jim Becker]

There's a difference between good enough tooling and excessive.
While that is an essentially true statement, each individual is personally responsible for defining "excessive" relative to their own needs, desires and opinions. Using myself as an example, for the limited amount of time I get at the present time to enjoy my woodworking avocation due to work and some physical issues, many folks would likely view my shop setup and equipment as "excessive". I don't, however, because I truly enjoy the tooling choices I made and invested in. Whether I'm building a major project (all for my own use in my own home, primarily...I rarely take commissions) or a simple piece of beekeeping woodenware, I don't feel guilty about using my 8'6" slider to cut the parts. :) In fact, I'm building a birdhouse today to replace one that's reached it's end of life. :D

[Jim Finn]

The only European equipment I have, are two Hegner scroll saws. Made in Germany. Today you can buy a scroll saw for under $100, better ones cost $450 and the best Hegner cost over $3000. All cut well, about the same. (I have a 1988 Jet scroll saw that still runs fine) The biggest difference I see, is that Hegners have much more durability than other saws do, and parts for my 1986 Hegner are still available. Not available for my Jet. In the past, I have had a $450 saw last just 20 months.

[Frederick Skelly]

.........many folks would likely view my shop setup and equipment as "excessive". I don't, however, because I truly enjoy the tooling choices I made and invested in.

Then that's all that matters!

[Joe Calhoon]

Are there rip saws made in Europe?

Not so much anymore except like the multiblade CNC type like Weinig sells. SCM also had a single bladeSLR called the M1
Ogam was another Italian mfg of these. Still see some in shops there.
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Some German shops still have single blade SLRs. Here is a nice oldie.
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And here is the Japanese type Darcy was talking about. This is in a US door shop. I got to use it, good saw. Unusual shop built fence.
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The Europeans think these type saws are dangerous. We have a small Taiwan SLR that has worked well for us and feel with care it is safe. Most small and medium shops in Europe use band saws for ripping. All have S4S machines so the rough rip is no problem.
Here is one from a UK shop.
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[Jim Andrew]

I am a woodworker at heart. Enjoyed building things on the farm as a child, wood shop class in school, majored in industrial arts in college, and then had a career as a house builder. Back when I was working for a living, never was able to afford a really nice wood shop. Had machines that were moved from job to job, which was never better than a sliding miter saw and a table saw and smaller jointer. All that stuff was heavy and got harder to move as I got older. After I gave up working for a living, I set up a nice wood shop, and have done a few upgrades as I go along. Really enjoy having a MM 16 band saw and a Hammer slider. Seems whenever I get a better machine, the quality of my projects improves.

[Martin Wasner]

Not so much anymore except like the multiblade CNC type like Weinig sells. SCM also had a single bladeSLR called the M1
Ogam was another Italian mfg of these. Still see some in shops there.
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Some German shops still have single blade SLRs. Here is a nice oldie.
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And here is the Japanese type Darcy was talking about. This is in a US door shop. I got to use it, good saw. Unusual shop built fence.
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The Europeans think these type saws are dangerous. We have a small Taiwan SLR that has worked well for us and feel with care it is safe. Most small and medium shops in Europe use band saws for ripping. All have S4S machines so the rough rip is no problem.
Here is one from a UK shop.
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My moulding guy has one of those Japanese rip saws. They have pretty high praise of it and recommended looking for when I was shopping for a rip saw. I haven't seen much other than Mattison, Diehl and some Taiwanese rip saws around here.

What kind of feed rates can be achieved on a bandsaw when ripping? In 4/4, a good slr should be pushing 100'/min pretty easily. My Diehl is the runt of the litter and does 60'/min. I couldn't say no for $4k though.

[peter gagliardi]

I have one of those Kikukawa RP12 SLR's. It is a very well built machine, with excellent fit and finish. My only complaint, is that the SLOW speed is 75 fpm, which works for any 4/4 stock, but a bit fast for some of the 8/4 domestic hardwoods . It only has a 10 hp motor, and I think a lot of the bogging down could be solved with a riving knife, which of course I have not seen on any SLR. As the board closes back in at the back of the blade, it robs horsepower.
No room in blade housing as made, so I am going to put a VFD on the feed motor, and I think I will be able to dial it back on 8/4 to 50 fpm nicely.

[david coelho]

I own a Felder CF 741 S combination machine. The primary driving factor was the limitation of my workshop, 22x20ft, and the desire to have full functionality, e.g. saw, jointer, planer, shaper, mortising. I was able to fit all that functionality into my small space. The second consideration was the dramatic improvement in my experience in accuracy and ease of work flow with the sliding table...while one must think about things differently, I can say that my productivity is way up and my accuracy is way up. I can break down a 4x8 sheet of plywood with 1/100 mm accuracy without any measurements, just throw the sheet onto the sliding table, set the (DRO) stops, and cut (I've also got pneumatic clamps which helps as well), easily 5x faster turn-around than my old conventional table saw approach. And in general, the overall build quality of these machines is way beyond anything that I've seen on the conventional side of things...all the fittings, adjustments, table surfaces, are really really well made and everything is well thought through and just works. And, one no longer needs all those jigs...with sliding tables, there are really only 3 or 4 add-ons that are general purpose that can accomadate any scenario....obviously a time saver, not needing to build a jig for each new task. But, yes, this quality is very expensive...

[Joe Calhoon]

Martin, no idea what the band saw feeders are for speed. we have a feeder on our band saw that we run slow for resawing. I will look and see what the high speed is. we run our little SLR at about 50fpm and that is fine. We spend most of the time looking and picking the boards.

[Brian W Evans]

Extreme Woodworker is starting what will probably be a great new series of videos on Youtube that turn all this good discussion into real demonstrations. His first video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_A24SfM5KI shows how to rip a live edge board on his Martin slider. His next video is the one I really want to see about the different ways to do rip cuts on the slider.

I second this recommendation. I also found this video - an ad for an Altendorf saw - that does a good job showing the process for cutting down sheet goods on a slider. The second half of the video is about adjusting the scoring saw and is more or less specific to the Altendorf, but the first part is relevant to this discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8JR_fD-dMI

I've cut down sheet goods with a circular saw and guide, a track saw, an American-style cabinet saw, and my new euro slider. Watch the video and you'll see why there is no comparison to a euro slider for this task (except maybe a panel saw, which I have never used).

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, no idea what the band saw feeders are for speed. we have a feeder on our band saw that we run slow for resawing. I will look and see what the high speed is. we run our little SLR at about 50fpm and that is fine. We spend most of the time looking and picking the boards.

I'm just thinking it'd be painful doing sticking for cabinet doors, face frame material, or moulder blanks where the defecting is a secondary operation and all you're trying to do is get lumber through machine as quick as possible. Still faster than pushing stuff through by hand, but the guy tailing the slr should be scrambling to keep up.

[andy bessette]

When I found my like new 20" Agazzani bandsaw on c/l, for ~$1750 including HTC rolling base, I knew it was a quality machine for the money. That it was euro didn't mean anything.

[Joe Jensen]

Its a funny thing, a lot of the people that criticize me for what I pay for tools have a couple of snowmobiles in the garage, a boat in the back yard, and a motorcycle or two in the mix. All of which would buy a nice tool that lasts a lifetime. Its all about perspective.

20 years ago I bought a Artic Cat Sno-Pro 440 and a SCM planer with a Tersa head the same year, they cost about the same money. The snowmobile is long gone, two years and it was worn out, but that planer is still in my shop, and I still get kick out of its accuracy every time I use it. It will last me until I do not want to work with wood any more. At that time it will still be worth at least half of what I paid for it, and it will have contributed to hundreds of thousands of income.

AMEN ​I could not have said it better

[Rick Fisher]

I second this recommendation. I also found this video - an ad for an Altendorf saw - that does a good job showing the process for cutting down sheet goods on a slider. The second half of the video is about adjusting the scoring saw and is more or less specific to the Altendorf, but the first part is relevant to this discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8JR_fD-dMI

.

Thanks for posting that Altendorf video Brian. Watching that video, I would say that's superior saw to my T-60C .. The only thing I think Martin did better was the hand wheel to move the fence, I absolutely love that feature.. the pull out extension on the cross cut is brilliant. The fit and finish on the clip on panel support is better than my Martin .. Mine is made by Martin and steel .. The way you adjust the scoring on the Altendorf seemed pretty standard.. I assume the Altendorf 45 is more in line with the Martin 70 or 75 like Joe Calhoon has ?

I use mine for 95% solid wood and would never go back to a miter saw or cabinet saw..

[Joe Calhoon]

I'm just thinking it'd be painful doing sticking for cabinet doors, face frame material, or moulder blanks where the defecting is a secondary operation and all you're trying to do is get lumber through machine as quick as possible. Still faster than pushing stuff through by hand, but the guy tailing the slr should be scrambling to keep up.


It depends on what we are doing. Architectural house trim we will just roll a unit of wood to the saw and start ripping with a little time spent sorting widths for the best
yield. We call this playing baseball. Most of our product is pretty fussy for grain match and door rough stock for straight. We spend the time it takes and get paid for it. A band saw would serve us well for our low volume but the little SLR is Unisaw size and a easy fit for our shop.
The local cabinet door mfg who makes a good product for his price gang rips his lumber and profiles through a 5 head moulder. Then does some sorting at cut to length of the stiles and rails. Our 4 side S4S machine made the biggest difference for us on material processing.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks for posting that Altendorf video Brian. Watching that video, I would say that's superior saw to my T-60C .. The only thing I think Martin did better was the hand wheel to move the fence, I absolutely love that feature.. the pull out extension on the cross cut is brilliant. The fit and finish on the clip on panel support is better than my Martin .. Mine is made by Martin and steel .. The way you adjust the scoring on the Altendorf seemed pretty standard.. I assume the Altendorf 45 is more in line with the Martin 70 or 75 like Joe Calhoon has ?

I use mine for 95% solid wood and would never go back to a miter saw or cabinet saw..

Rick, I have a 18 year old T72A with the fence handwheel. Peter G has a T75 with all the options. We are also about 95%solid wood. It took us many years to realize the potential for solid wood on these.

[Rick Fisher]

They did the hand wheel 18 years ago ? Patent must be extinct .. why would others not offer it .. its awesome .

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Back to the OP question.. People like me buy Euro machinery because they can. It is immensely superior to basic Asian machinery. I am getting rid of a Griggio 20" Planer for a Martin 24" planer next month (its enroute ) .. because its a far superior machine and its what I wanted.

I have a very good buddy who collects Italian Motorcycles .. Ducati, Guzzi .. stuff like that .. another has a boat that burns $100 an hour in fuel ..

European machinery ranges from Hammer to Martin.. The Martin Planer has a 10hp motor. It has a self lubricating planer bed.. and a Martin Xplane Helical head.. It has a numerical key pad to operate the cutting height.. I need this about as much as I need a $30,000 Harley Davidson...


Rick,
Here is an honest question from a guy who doesnt know.. and please note I am not in for an arguement, this is a completely above board question without any hidden meaning/adgenda.. :)

When I set up our new facility a few years ago, I looked at a lot of machinery. Seeing as I sold me old shop turn key and was taking very little with me, I was looking for pretty much everything again.

Planers.. I looked at a few European models in the 20" to 24", at that time (2009) priced in the higher teens to lower twenties for new, mid teens for nearly new/slightly used. I looked at the Cantek and went with the 20" planer, with helical carbide head, 7.5 Hp motor, infinitely adjustable feed, digital table setting. It was about $11K, or about 1/3 less than what I was looking at in the same class. Actually a Griggio and maybe SCM?

To my question: so, my planer seems to work really well. The hight setting is repeatable and accurate to within a thousandth or less, all across the 20" bed. The head cust well, leaves a great (IMO) finish which is easily cleaned up with a 5 thous pass through the wide belt with 120 grit. The planer is quiet (compared to the straight knife and TErsa head planers Ive used in the past, large Delta, GEneral, Sicar brands) and I absolutely can find no fault with it after 6 years of daily use and planing at least 60 to 80 (or more) thousand board feet of hardwoods. I get everything in rough, so we joint and plane all the lumber we get. Plus I do contract planing as well for other guys. Its held up really well.

You say your new Martin is "far superior" to your Griggio. What makes that so? I'd like to know details why VS just saying it is. I see a lot of this stuff at the shows like IWF and AWFS, but obviously never been in a shop that uses the higher end gear like Martin.

I know my Griggio slider is a plain jane model (although I did add the Tiger fence) but it cuts accurately and works well. Similarly, I'd like to know how a high end Altendorf or Martin saw would change the way we operate? Looking at a saw on the show floor is one thing, but it doesnt tell me what Im missing.

[Erik Loza]

..You say your new Martin is "far superior" to your Griggio. What makes that so? I'd like to know details why VS just saying it is. I see a lot of this stuff at the shows like IWF and AWFS, but obviously never been in a shop that uses the higher end gear like Martin.

No dog in this fight and I won't presume to answer for another member but I've been in as many cabinet shops as anyone and have yet to see a Martin machine. If it's stuff at this level, typically it's some ancient SCMi or Altendorf iron. Most Martin equipment I read or hear of is either owned by a rich hobbyist or by a shop that in some capacity, is sponsored by or otherwise affiliated with them beyond the usual dealer-client capacity. Not that there's anything wrong with any of that: I wish I could afford a Martin (we have an Asian moulder and rip saw from Stiles, but also a big Buetfering. The finishing and drying machines are American-made).

The recession and subsequent liquidation of tons of cabinet shops across the country really flooded the market with lots of industrial iron at rock-bottom prices and IMHO, the advent of in CNC technology and how affordable they have become has really put a dent in the high-end Classical market. For example, I think SCM might have sold maybe 1 or 2 of their top-tier computerized sliders a year when I was last with them. Compare that to the Si400 Nova, which hundreds were sold of every year in the US. Why would a cabinet shop spend $50K on a slider when you can have a real CNC for not much more? To put it into context, Stiles (SCM's biggest competitor) has only one or two truly European-made classical machines in their entire lineup. All the rest are Chinese and Stiles is the biggest dealership in this industry, which out to say something about the direction of the market. Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik

[John Sincerbeaux]

Who buys Martin equipment? MasterBrand.... The largest cabinet maker in North America.

[Brian W Evans]

Rick,
I know my Griggio slider is a plain jane model (although I did add the Tiger fence) but it cuts accurately and works well. Similarly, I'd like to know how a high end Altendorf or Martin saw would change the way we operate? Looking at a saw on the show floor is one thing, but it doesnt tell me what Im missing.

I don't have a direct answer to this part of your question but, since I posted the other video, I'll post these of an Altendorf as well. I have nothing to do with Altendorf and don't see why I would ever need one vs my Minimax. Everything I've heard anyone say on this forum about a euro slider indicates that they all accomplish the same job, and do it well. That said, some of the features, like the laser, or the automatic length compensation for miter cuts seem like they would be nice to have. I can't see the need for some of the motorized stops, though, and I am of the opinion that more moving or motorized parts = more things to break.

Here are the videos:

https://youtu.be/AducjhD_RJU

https://youtu.be/kl0NEGqRv7A


Here's a link to a site that allows you to configure an Altendorf F45 (https://www.rjmachinery.co.uk/altendorf-f45). I found this site while trying to find out what a saw like this costs. I couldn't find out for sure but it seems to be at least in the $30,000 neighborhood, with very high resale values.

[jack forsberg]

When the subject of German machinery superiority comes up is always good to inject some Benny Hill


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsLosKzfIsw

[Mel Fulks]

Well said,Jack. Funny stuff ,but those shoes shulda' showed em !

[Larry Edgerton]

I don't have a direct answer to this part of your question but, since I posted the other video, I'll post these of an Altendorf as well. I have nothing to do with Altendorf and don't see why I would ever need one vs my Minimax. Everything I've heard anyone say on this forum about a euro slider indicates that they all accomplish the same job, and do it well. That said, some of the features, like the laser, or the automatic length compensation for miter cuts seem like they would be nice to have. I can't see the need for some of the motorized stops, though, and I am of the opinion that more moving or motorized parts = more things to break.



I pretty much agree on the parts break by percentage thing. If they would provide a manual override in case of a failure I would be more inclined, but they do not. If you watch the used market we are starting to see some of these electronic machines come up in auction with failed and unserviceable electronics, and going cheap for what would otherwise be a mechanically competent machine.

I have also read in the pro forums saga's of trying to get electronics packages sorted, and the cost of a visit by a tech. No thanks, give me manual readouts and that is all I need. I would be afraid of having a beautiful machine setting there not working because of some electrical component failure that I know nothing about.

[Joe Calhoon]

No dog in this fight and I won't presume to answer for another member but I've been in as many cabinet shops as anyone and have yet to see a Martin machine. If it's stuff at this level, typically it's some ancient SCMi or Altendorf iron. Most Martin equipment I read or hear of is either owned by a rich hobbyist or by a shop that in some capacity, is sponsored by or otherwise affiliated with them beyond the usual dealer-client capacity.
Erik

Eric, If you care to visit me I will take you to 3 local shops besides mine that have Martin. I live in a rural very small populated area of Colorado. Martin is a small company with about 100 employees producing about 1000 to 1500 machines per year of which around 80 to 100 per year go to North America.There are a couple other producers of similar quality machines in Europe. I am sure it is a tough market for these producers with all the cost engineering done by most mainstream mfgs.

You seem to make a big deal about this without any knowledge or facts. Myself I have no problem with someone buying whatever machine they choose.

[Joe Calhoon]

Rick,
Here is an honest question from a guy who doesnt know.. and please note I am not in for an arguement, this is a completely above board question without any hidden meaning/adgenda.. :)

When I set up our new facility a few years ago, I looked at a lot of machinery. Seeing as I sold me old shop turn key and was taking very little with me, I was looking for pretty much everything again.

Planers.. I looked at a few European models in the 20" to 24", at that time (2009) priced in the higher teens to lower twenties for new, mid teens for nearly new/slightly used. I looked at the Cantek and went with the 20" planer, with helical carbide head, 7.5 Hp motor, infinitely adjustable feed, digital table setting. It was about $11K, or about 1/3 less than what I was looking at in the same class. Actually a Griggio and maybe SCM?

To my question: so, my planer seems to work really well. The hight setting is repeatable and accurate to within a thousandth or less, all across the 20" bed. The head cust well, leaves a great (IMO) finish which is easily cleaned up with a 5 thous pass through the wide belt with 120 grit. The planer is quiet (compared to the straight knife and TErsa head planers Ive used in the past, large Delta, GEneral, Sicar brands) and I absolutely can find no fault with it after 6 years of daily use and planing at least 60 to 80 (or more) thousand board feet of hardwoods. I get everything in rough, so we joint and plane all the lumber we get. Plus I do contract planing as well for other guys. Its held up really well.

You say your new Martin is "far superior" to your Griggio. What makes that so? I'd like to know details why VS just saying it is. I see a lot of this stuff at the shows like IWF and AWFS, but obviously never been in a shop that uses the higher end gear like Martin.

I know my Griggio slider is a plain jane model (although I did add the Tiger fence) but it cuts accurately and works well. Similarly, I'd like to know how a high end Altendorf or Martin saw would change the way we operate? Looking at a saw on the show floor is one thing, but it doesnt tell me what Im missing.


Andrew,
In November I helped set up a woodworking shop in Bhutan with all Griggio machines. I would say in their price range they produce a solid machine. Better than a lot of the other Euro producers in the same price range. This is a developing third world country and more complex machines would have been a mistake.
I was there for a month and spent much time with the machines. I can tell you first hand there are many differences (and should be for the price) Engineering, function, electronics, and fit and finish just to name a few.

The better machines are not a necessity to be successful in business but sure hard to go back to lesser quality once you have experienced them.
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[Rick Fisher]

When I bought the new planer I decided to get either the Felder Format 63 .. The SCM Invincible or the Martin ..

In my head I was really intrigued with the SCM Invincible but I believed I would end up with the Felder. (I assumed the Martin would be really expensive)

Not long before I had bought a new SCM S600 Bandsaw (MM-24) .. it showed up missing parts .. I was really disappointed with customer service from SCM .. I tried to get the part but in the end I went to a machine shop and had the part made rather than get mad..

About 2 running hours later the magnetic starter failed. Again it was hard to get help.. I filled out a bunch of SCM warranty info, and about 10 days later hired an Industrial electrician to install a new mag starter, I never did hear back from SCM .. (The electrician tested the original starter and said the contacts ? appeared stuck, open or closed.. I dunno . something failed )

I did a pile of research and asked way too many questions of the sales people. I came to realize that the Martin was the best thought out, heaviest, quietest and nicest machine. A small example would be changing from Metric to Imperial.. Martin is dead simple. Other manufacturers didn't make it simple at all.
I grew up imperial but live in a metric country.. I work in both .. The other factor was resale value. I don't plan on selling the machine but Martin is like Festool in our area.. sells fast and expensive when used..

Most of all the shopping experience with Martin is outstanding.. I ended up asking "Stephan ? " . from Martin a myriad of questions and he was amazing at getting me answers.. Really outstanding .. The Martin was the most expensive, but it wasn't terrible..

Joe Calhoon was actually a part in the final decision. He said buy Martin, cry once .. lol ..

Andrew.. I have no experience with Cantek machinery and assume they are rock solid. The appear to be extremely well made, industrial machines.. I just like Euro . its not logical or even defensible. I have a buddy who drives a Ducati, apparently a Suzuki is just as fast, more reliable and way cheaper.. He owns 3 Italian bikes anyway..

[Chris Parks]

I have a really technical question for the experts, what is a format saw and why is it different to a slider? I did the Google thing with no results.

[Rick Fisher]

I have a really technical question for the experts, what is a format saw and why is it different to a slider? I did the Google thing with no results.

Format is the name of the highest end Felder equipment. Google Felder Format 4

[Chris Parks]

Thanks Rick, I knew Felder had a "format" saw but I have seen it used in a generic way and wondered if it a different type of slider or not and if so what the difference was.

[peter gagliardi]

Rick, I have heard that , and experienced it personally about SCM from innumerable people- short on answers, and issues with parts. Enough so, that I wouldn't gamble with my money on them.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Rick
Alright that all makes more sense. Customer service, parts availability etc.
I know that has a lot to add to a companies rep and also worth much dollar wise.

Machinery isn't a bargain if it if it breaks down and/or is hard to get parts and service.

I know Griggio here is like Sicar - you're on your own and hope you can speak Italian lol.

This is all very interesting stuff to me. Without any friends close by in the business, and with the other shops not being invested mych in equipment, I'm very much on my own to figure out what's a good/better/great investment for our company when it comes to buying machinery.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Andrew,
In November I helped set up a woodworking shop in Bhutan with all Griggio machines. I would say in their price range they produce a solid machine. Better than a lot of the other Euro producers in the same price range. This is a developing third world country and more complex machines would have been a mistake.
I was there for a month and spent much time with the machines. I can tell you first hand there are many differences (and should be for the price) Engineering, function, electronics, and fit and finish just to name a few.

The better machines are not a necessity to be successful in business but sure hard to go back to lesser quality once you have experienced them.
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Very interesting post Joe. Thanks.

[David Kumm]

I have a few used SCM and have had great luck with Carissa Stanford and Pete ( don't know last name ) at parts pronto. Martin is still way above in build but the availability of parts from SCM is pretty good. I've found that at every parts or tech support place I've used that some people are better than others and it pays to ask for them by name.

Stiles imports Cantek as their Artisan line and I doubt they mess with machines that aren't rock solid. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, there are a lot of advantages for hobbyists, such as capacity, capability, safety features, space savings and quality.

There also are non measurable such as how they look, and feel when being used.

regards, Rod.

[Rick Fisher]

I should say .. My MM-24 Bandsaw is great .. Its a really well built machine. It suffered some bad luck in its early days but I've got a few miles of cutting on it now and I would recommend it to anyone ..

I have a 1989 ? SCM 600 and a 2016 S600 from the same factory.. 27 years later.. The new saw is superior to the old one in build quality and of course features..

[Rick Fisher]

Joe. Those Griggio pics are awesome.

That jointer stands out as a pretty nice looking machine.. how did it compare to your Martin ?

Jointers are pretty simple ?

[Joe Calhoon]

Rick, the devil is in the small details. I will say it again that in their price range Griggio is a solid contender and Martin should be expected to be better in their price range.
the biggest difference is the fence. Up thread I posted pictures of Martins fence that runs on bearings with a lever to lock in any position easily and tilt with one hand locking. As you can see from the pictures Griggio is a simple tube with kip lever. They had some nylon pads under the fence to make it glide easier but you had to be careful if dust is on the table it would throw the fence out a little. The tilt method was not bad and overall was a better fence than the SCM jointer I used for years. It did have a small twist but did not seem to effect accuracy. The outfeed table adjustment was painful to use compared to Martins. It took a couple hours to adjust compared to 5 minutes on the Martin. The last day I was there the table went out of adjustment and never had a chance to see what the problem was. The cut quality of the Tersa head on both the planer and jointer felt the same as on my Martins. All the Griggio machines have more vibration than Martins. That is to be expected with the sheet steel bases. Griggio cast tables were heavy and flat. I remember the cast table on my Felder shaper was very thin and had to be adjusted with bolts to flatten.
the mortising table seemed like an afterthought and parts of the back fence cover had to be removed to use it. All the Griggio machines used lesser quality electronics and readouts but to be expected in that price range.

Griggio has a line of machines made in the East but their top line is still made in Italy. These were ordered with the least amount of electronics possible but still most of the movements are motorized. I believe it cost mfgs less to to do it this way than hand wheels.

It was a good choice for the shop in Bhutan. More complex machines would be a disaster. They go at their work hard to get product out the door at a price that is affordable. On the way there I installed a Martin CNC shaper in China. The woodworking world is a whole different ballgame in those countries.

[Rick Fisher]

This planer is just about set up .. I thought I would post some pics of the build quality of a Euro planer.

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh499/rickfishercbs/Martin%202_zps1jiglhut.jpg (http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/rickfishercbs/media/Martin%202_zps1jiglhut.jpg.html)
http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh499/rickfishercbs/Martin%204_zps0sdvx0lo.jpg (http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/rickfishercbs/media/Martin%204_zps0sdvx0lo.jpg.html)
http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh499/rickfishercbs/Martin%207_zpsjmhpmfbj.jpg (http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/rickfishercbs/media/Martin%207_zpsjmhpmfbj.jpg.html)
That gear motor and reducer are for the feed on the planer. A VFD creates variable feed speed. The main motor is 10HP .. There is a third motor which is raises and lowers the planer bed. The gear motor and drive impressed me.. This planer will feed 15 - 80 Feet per minute.

This machine was ordered with a segmented infeed roller and chip breaker. It allows you to run multiple pieces through, even if they aren't quite the same thickness, with no disturbance in feeding. The other option is a rubber infeed roller.

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh499/rickfishercbs/Martin%206_zps2lqinhvc.jpg (http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/rickfishercbs/media/Martin%206_zps2lqinhvc.jpg.html)

That chain runs the outfeed rollers. Its an enormous chain.

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh499/rickfishercbs/Martin%205_zps7fnnzxdb.jpg (http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/rickfishercbs/media/Martin%205_zps7fnnzxdb.jpg.html)

Overall this machine is 2700 lbs out of the box .. about 1.5 tons on the pallet and crated.

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh499/rickfishercbs/Martin%209_zpse0ymmdcp.jpg (http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/rickfishercbs/media/Martin%209_zpse0ymmdcp.jpg.html)

The planer bed is grooved and Automatically lubricates itself .. ( rather than applying wax when it gets sticky )

It fired up for the first time tonight, its a quiet machine. No vibration, no clunks or groans. No sharp corners or un-hemmed metal.

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh499/rickfishercbs/Martin%2010_zpswno4fife.jpg (http://s1248.photobucket.com/user/rickfishercbs/media/Martin%2010_zpswno4fife.jpg.html)

The big draw of this machine was the ability to switch from Metric to Imperial without any fuss. You hold the P button for an extended time and it flips to the opposite unit of measure. You punch in a thickness and hit start, the bed adjusts automatically, and its fast !! .. It can be raised with a foot switch or by hitting a button that advances the table a pre-set amount.

[David Kumm]

Great pictures Rick. Are the chipbreaker fingers, AL, Steel, or cast iron? The pressure bar on the newer machines is much lighter than on the old iron planers. How is the Martin designed and is it easy to adjust? Is the insert head a Martin design? Most are Tersa and I think it is only recently that Martin offers that option. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

That's not that heavy of a chain, whitney, buss and Greenlee ran heavy chains and large gears to drive everything. I don't trust the electronic controls on the newer equipment for more than 6 years or so.
Real fun fixing bad electronic controls on this newer stuff.

[Larry Edgerton]

That's not that heavy of a chain, whitney, buss and Greenlee ran heavy chains and large gears to drive everything. I don't trust the electronic controls on the newer equipment for more than 6 years or so.
Real fun fixing bad electronic controls on this newer stuff.

My SCM has the same chain as well. And I also feel the same way about electronics. Why buy a machine that will last 50 years with an electronics package that may be unservicable in far less years. Not only that but if you are like me you are at the mercy of techs that are a long ways away and very expensive. My planer has a DC motor for table lift with fast and slow controls, all very simple really and it has not been off even a little bit in twenty years.

Panhans makes a shaper I like that is a basic version of their computerized shaper but with mechanical readouts, and I would like to see more of that. As nice as a new Martin shaper I would not buy one in their totally electronic state with no mechanical overrides. Beautiful stuff to be sure, but in the future I do not believe that they will hold their value like the older models. I just watched a Panhans shaper with all the tricks about 14 years old with a bad mother board go for $4200 in what looked like otherwise perfect shape. A shaper that would be over $70k to replace.

But then, I'm old.......:D

[Warren Lake]

manufacturers must know by now they have electronic issues in time, making stuff without manual over ride makes no sense unless you want a deliberate make work project for future income. If you have a failure and have a deadline its pressure you dont need.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

manufacturers must know by now they have electronic issues in time, making stuff without manual over ride makes no sense unless you want a deliberate make work project for future income. If you have a failure and have a deadline its pressure you dont need.

My Cantek planer, and wide belt sander use the same electronic controller on both machines. Its very accurate (repeatable and accurate to a thousandth of an inch). Also metric to imperial with one button. Similar controls as on the Martin.

Both machines, however have a manual crank, and also separate push-buttons to raise/lower the tables which are independant to the digital controller. Also, Akhurst here in Canada stocks a spare control unit in Toronto. They claim on average a 10+ year life in an 8 hour/day setting. I felt pretty confident knowing all that to go with the electronic controls. Certainly speeds up things in the shop..

I have no qualms about buying electronics. But, its nice to have the manual option to still use the machine until it can be repaired.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I have a few machines (edge bander and construction borer) with the mechanical read outs. They are fine too, but I prefer the digital for use and ease of use.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

And Rick, I never got a reply to my question regarding your Griggio... and now that you have the Martin, I am still curious as to why you had said the Martin is far superior to the Griggio? Especially now that you can use the Martin and compare both.

[David Kumm]

Electronic controls are at least gotten more modular. When I bought SAC planer used I opened it up and saw a couple of controllers that looked like proprietary designs and the rest off the shelf. Found a place that still stocked some SAC parts and bought the proprietary stuff for a few hundred. Figured it was decent insurance. I think anything proprietary on a machine should come with a spare. 90+% can be replaced but the 10% can be a killer. Good thing that most is replaceable as my experience has been that the compact new stuff takes less room but doesn't last nearly as long as the old electrics. Dave

[Rick Fisher]

Hey Andrew.

The Griggio is actually sitting right next to the Martin right now .. The difference between them is refinement. I actually rebuilt the Griggio, changed the cutterhead, etc. The controller for height on the Griggio is painful. You kinda make electric stabs at the height your shooting for. Repeat-ability is impossible.
The Martin, you type in 1.21" .. hit start, and its done. Or you type in 31.2 mm .. same thing.

The electronics argument to me is a bit weak. The parts are all modular. Siemens etc.. If there was a bunch of 6 or 7 year old Euro machines out there with blown electronics, I would be able to find them online, I would have bought one and fixed it .. I have a good friend who's and electrical engineer and woodworker, that would be a dream crisis for him.

This machine is not in the same caliber as a Whitney or a Buss, those are 3 or 4 times the size and would probably be 3 times the cost too .. lol . Aren't some of those 50 hp? This type of machine would be comparable to a Felder or SCM ..

When I got the Martin Table saw it had a Pizatto switch that I actually broke when setting it up. I ordered a new one from the Canadian Distributor for Pizatto ? Who I had never heard of .. it was 1/4 the cost of going through the factory channels. The parts on these machines are all OEM .. the gear box and motor are made by Nord. Martin especially is all European parts. Even the screwdriver they give you is a Wera.. lol

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm not a fan of newer electronics either....but then again none of the manufacturers care:o I'm a one, (occasionally two), man shop and have to watch every dollar. The guys who are buying these machines are in a whole other league. I'd be interested to see demographics on the shops buying this machines. I'd guess they're not huge shops, but smaller to mid-sized shops that are banking good money. Probably a lot of commercial work. I'd also guess they're planning on these machines paying for themselves in ten years or less? Be interesting to know anyway.

I do know one guy who has a nice Martin CNC shaper in his shop. It had been sitting dormant for several years last time I was there. Electronics problem which probably wouldn't have been a big deal when they were busy, but now they're down to 2 guys and the money for new parts is tighter. My old outdated T-21 takes longer to setup, and repeatability is up to the operator....but she's still working after all these years and for a one-man shop, that's all I need;)

[Patrick Irish]

I know this is nowhere in the ballpark of the Martin equipment, but my Hammer combo machine gets me a sliding table saw, 12" jointer and planer (with helical cutter), and shaper w/ sliding table.....for $10k, delivered, new. I don't think I could buy equivalent functionality in North American-style machinery for less money.

All depends on space and what wood a person processes.

My used Unisaw was $700 after adding a retro riving knife. 8" Grizzly spiral was $700 used. 16" Powermatic planer $800 after installing VFD to power it. Incra router table + Bosch router & 100 bits $800.

Only thing I bought new so far was a ridigid spindle sander.

German sliders or all in one machines do seem like a good value when pricing things at retail.

[Patrick Walsh]

I'm gonna be the first one to say nice freaking machine!

I would be more excited about the day that showed up than just about anything I can think up wanting for. A car a truck a second home a fancy vacation, you name it I'd be most excited about that machine.

Clearly i I would have to take the house for financial reasons. Still i would still not be even half as excited as I would be about that machine.

[John Sincerbeaux]

Congrats Rick.
Martin machinery is awesome. I will be curious how you like the helical head? I know Martin is selling about 80% of their T45's still with the Tersa heads. If I was to order a T45 today, the cutterhead would be the toughest decision.

David, the helical heads are produced by Martin now. They call them Xplane cutterheads.

As far as "electronic" concerns??? What year is this boys?

[Rick Fisher]

Hey John .. I'll let ya know .. I spent the day running metal duct and wiring..

[Chris Fournier]

Quite frankly North America gave up developing woodworking machinery long ago, say the 1940's. Asian stuff is usually a copy built to a price, and by copy I mean where the North Americans gave up and the Europeans continue. Europeans have stayed at the forefront and continued to design our equipment using the best materials and production methods to deliver the finest performing equipment there is. At a price. Buy one. Set it up and inspect it. Use it. You will have your answer.

[Joe Calhoon]

Nice Rick! Did you ever determine if the inserts for the Xplane head are proprietary to Martin or can standard inserts be used! I think a big advantage of these is being able to return to settings very accurate and repeatable. Buss and the big iron planers are good if you are processing a lot of material daily. And better for rough lumber. The 24" euro planers are good for large and small shops that process a lot of different materials and sizes, smaller batch sizes and are generally fussy about facing and accuracy. They can be had with steel rollers if you plane just rough lumber.

I like the electronics especially with aging eyes. It does require a different skill set to trouble shoot these machines. So you either need to learn this or have a electric guy that understands modern control systems. Unfortunately most house electricians do not understand these controls. When we set up the shop in Bhutan with Griggio we ordered the most non electronic possible but still most of the movements are servo controled with digital readouts. Electronic brakes, inverters all the servos, safety cutouts and the such are nice but make the electronics more complex.

I enjoyed rebuilding my vintage Martin T23 but the reality is it does not hold a candle to the newer shapers in my shop for quickness of setup, repeatability and accuracy. Most OWWM is not practical for the majority of modern woodworking business and more the realm of hobby woodworkers who like to rebuild and have the time. I do like the old iron for what I consider school shop machines like edge, disk and spindle sanders, bandsaws and the such. This of course is my own opinion and sure many disagree. I would agree with Chris above in that North America has not had any innovation in woodworking since the 40s. The craft in Europe never died and this is evident when you visit the schools there.

[Rick Fisher]

Hey Joe..

The cutters appear to be Byrd.. 15x15x2.5 .. These are marked Xplane, but I'm pretty sure they're just Tigra knives, easy to find. I planed some wood with it tonight.. its an exceptional machine. Easy to calibrate, dead accurate and repeatable. The cutterhead is good, I don't see it as much different than a Byrd.. Nice and quiet, no scream.

[peter gagliardi]

So, they are the standard 15 x15 turnblade style- 4 cutting edges? The head looks to be a much better piece of machining/engineering than a Byrd head. How does the planed board look in a raking light? Some people complain of seeing the small scallops with insert style heads- any brand, but I have not noticed it hardly if at all with the Weinig chicklet style head I use on my shaper.
I am sure it will serve you well.
I have heard from Tersa users about fairly short knife life- I think due to the tiny amount of steel not being able to take and dissipate the heat well. I have Terminus in my planer, and those knives when sharp cut really well, but do not last as long as the old style regular head steel knives did.

[Joe Calhoon]

Peter, have you tried the carbide Terminus inserts? A local guy here runs those and likes them. His Terminus heads take inserts for rounding, back out etc like my T90 four sider does. You wont get any life out of HSS Tersa either, carbide or coated is the way to go on those.
I look at it like sawblades, I would never consider using steel sawblades anymore.

[peter gagliardi]

Joe, I do have some of the carbide in the jointer and planer. Better for sure, but cut quality not quite as keen as steel. Still assessing life to determine best cost/life ratio.
The planer and jointer heads do not have the provision for "combi style" milling like their specialty molder/shaper heads do.
I would really like to visit a shop running the spiral head to see how much of a noise reduction there is.
Of course, old iron had less than zero thought about this in the early days, that is one of the immense benefits of the newer engineering on these machines.
Softwoods in the older machines mill with a fairly quiet "buzz" . Full width hardwoods, not so much!

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Joe, I do have some of the carbide in the jointer and planer. Better for sure, but cut quality not quite as keen as steel. Still assessing life to determine best cost/life ratio.
The planer and jointer heads do not have the provision for "combi style" milling like their specialty molder/shaper heads do.
I would really like to visit a shop running the spiral head to see how much of a noise reduction there is.
Of course, old iron had less than zero thought about this in the early days, that is one of the immense benefits of the newer engineering on these machines.
Softwoods in the older machines mill with a fairly quiet "buzz" . Full width hardwoods, not so much!

Peter, there is so much of a noise reduction, its hard to explain until youve tried both.

I would never, ever go back to a straight knife planer or jointer... ever. WHen I revisit my shop I sold 6 years ago, I cant even stand to go back into the shop when theyre planing hardwood anymore. My planer has 6 rows of 30mm wide knives, staggered. The cut quality is excellent and easy to remove with one pass through the widebelt, or even by hand with a ROS.

Just for the noise reduction, it is worth every penny IMO, never mind the 10x further between sharpenings/blade swapping.

[Joe Calhoon]

The same shop using Terminus heads in their moulder has a SCM Class planer with a spiral that they ran for me. It is really quiet! And I did not see any scallops in the finish. My Tersa planer and jointer always get comments on how quiet they are but the SCM was noticeably quieter. I still prefer the Tersa for the quick change. I changed and cleaned all 4 heads in the T90 the other day and only took 15 minutes. If not cleaning only takes less than a minute per head.

With Tersa the carbide and coated knives make a better cut than HSS. Maybe the Terminus angles and thickness are different.

[Rick Fisher]

The older Griggio had a Tersa head.. The cut quality for the first hour was spectacular. Then it would start to degrade, and get louder and louder.

This planer leaves "smooth marks" .. I dunno how else to explain it .. in the surface .. I could sand them out in seconds with 220.. I run most everything through a sander anyway .. so I don't really care.. Its not a bad surface, its "the" surface helical heads often leave behind.

[Larry Edgerton]

As far as "electronic" concerns??? What year is this boys?

And that is relative how?

[Darcy Warner]

nothing like a plc taking a dump and turning a 50k compressor into a boat anchor.

[Erik Loza]

Stiles was just in here replacing a controller on our basically brand-new four-head Butfering. Under warranty, of course. I overheard the tech say something to the effect of, "Looks like some sawdust got in there". Point being that "newness", "price tag", and "country of origin" are no guarantee against electronic issues.

Erik

[Chris Hachet]

All depends on space and what wood a person processes.

My used Unisaw was $700 after adding a retro riving knife. 8" Grizzly spiral was $700 used. 16" Powermatic planer $800 after installing VFD to power it. Incra router table + Bosch router & 100 bits $800.

Only thing I bought new so far was a ridigid spindle sander.

German sliders or all in one machines do seem like a good value when pricing things at retail.This is a lot closer to my approach.

[Larry Edgerton]

Stiles was just in here replacing a controller on our basically brand-new four-head Butfering. Under warranty, of course. I overheard the tech say something to the effect of, "Looks like some sawdust got in there". Point being that "newness", "price tag", and "country of origin" are no guarantee against electronic issues.

Erik


Did you happen to ask how much that repair would cost if the machine was out of warranty?

[Warren Lake]

I can be in the Guiness book of Records for sawdust in my computer. every six months of so I might blow it out if im getting someone to look at it. When I blow it out there is a dust storm. You have wonder why electronics fails in machinery, is it dust then why has that not been designed out of it. Wonder if its vibration ive tortured two computers and the dust hasnt done a thing so far, of course it probably will tomorrow since I stated that.

[Rick Fisher]

Did you happen to ask how much that repair would cost if the machine was out of warranty?

A wide belt that failed due to dust would be out of character for Butferring. They had a series they got from Taiwan, not sure if they still do.

I find most Euro companies are either really good about warranty, or terrible.

Felder for example replaced a switch on my RL-160 3 or 4 years after I bought it. Martin only makes their planer with fancy electronics.. I would be shocked if there where a bunch of dead ones out there with failed electronics .. Martin seems to be like Felder, they're still interested after the cheque clears..

[Joe Calhoon]

I am going on 15 to 17 years with my Martins and some other machines with electronics. Lost a circuit board on the shaper with a lightning strike. And a spindle raising motor on the same shaper. It was about $800 each time. That's the only electric things that have happened other than transformers going out on the Colombo tenoner and Hofmann bore machine. You can protect from lightning and surges with aftermarket electronic gadgets. Probably a worthwhile investment if you have a lot of CNC.

I fully expect to start having a few issues as time goes on. It's usually something simple and the challenge is troubleshooting to locate the defective part. A lot of times it's loose connections or corrosion.

[Joe Jensen]

I can be in the Guiness book of Records for sawdust in my computer. every six months of so I might blow it out if im getting someone to look at it. When I blow it out there is a dust storm. You have wonder why electronics fails in machinery, is it dust then why has that not been designed out of it. Wonder if its vibration ive tortured two computers and the dust hasnt done a thing so far, of course it probably will tomorrow since I stated that.

The good news is the industrial electronics are built much more robustly than PCs. The temp range for PCs is 0 - 85 degrees Celsius. For most industrial electronics it's neg 40 - 100 Celsius. Also often the circuit boards are coated to protect them from dust and moisture.

[Larry Edgerton]

I am not attacking you guys that are buying Martins, hell, if my business could support it I would buy new as well. Would have a nice blue shop, probably paint the walls to match. :cool:

My point is that as they age and circuitry and its components change and electrical parts become unobtainable, I do not believe they will not hold their value like the older machines have done. A thirty year old Martin is worth darn near what it costs new if it has been cared for. I realize that many businesses have a short life expectancy for a tools time in their shop, but not a lot of us.

Look at a ten year old Mercedes, not worth much because no one wants to take a chance on huge repair bills. I just sold a BMW 535 for no other reason than it was closing in on maintenance that would cost more than the car was worth.

I really do not like them not having mechanical overrides. As my only shaper, I would be dead in the water for how long? And although I can fix just about anything mechanical, like a lot of people in smaller woodworking business, electronics do not fall into that category. I would have to call in a tech, and just getting them to my location would cost more than I want to pay, let alone the bill. I can't have too many big surprises in my business, the margin is just not there in my area. I'd move to a better area, but I'm too old and have things pretty much the way I like them here now other than way too much competition for too few jobs.

But, being able to drop on a cutter and have the shaper go to previous setting would sure be nice...........

[Joe Calhoon]

I hear you Larry and wish they had overrides also but don't think that is going to happen. Its cheaper for the mfgs to motorize movements than have handwheels and the such. To have both would drive up the costs even more.

[Keith Weber]

Electronics is always a concern with older machines. My 2001 Aldendorf F45 has digital readouts on the rip fence and crosscut flip stops, but it still has analog scales and adjustments are manual, so I won't be dead in the water if they ever failed. If they did, I'd probably go to third party replacements to save the horrendous replacement costs.

The blade tilt and height adjustments are all digital, though, with no manual backups, so those worry me. I shudder to think of what it would cost to replace the complicated circuit board behind the panel and fly in a tech to troubleshoot and/or fix it. It all depends how lucky you are. I have a LED alarm clock that I got in about 1979, and it's been plugged in for the last 38 years without a break other than power outages and a dozen or so moves. It still works perfect. It says Made in Hong Kong on the back. On the opposite side, I had a Palm Pilot years ago that literally died about one week after the warranty ran out.

[Larry Edgerton]

I hear you Larry and wish they had overrides also but don't think that is going to happen. Its cheaper for the mfgs to motorize movements than have handwheels and the such. To have both would drive up the costs even more.

I got jinxed! Went to the shop early this morning to run some stock, and the electric lift on my planer quit.

[Martin Wasner]

The electric controls in a production environment is priceless to me. On the widebelt, we've got quick sets. Hit 1 on the keypad and it goes to .788 which is our first pass on prep'd 4/4 stock. When I put the last part in, I hit 2 and wait for the guy tailing to yell clear, then press "enter". The machine is finding it's position while we're jockey-ing carts around.

It makes setting almost idiot proof.

Rick beat me to it, y'all need to make friends with an electrical engineer. Down is down though. Some days you can't afford anything to go wrong. It's been mentioned already, but almost none of this stuff is proprietary on the simpler pieces of equipment. A fully automated shaper the software and controller are likely a different story. Same with edge banders. But that's also a different story. Much more complicated with a lot more components compared to an up/down controller with a magnetic pick up.

It's a question of whether or not the cost of convenience is less than the cost of down time. I think in most scenarios it'll be more profitable running the mild automation.

[Joe Calhoon]

Larry, If it is a problem with a dc transformer or switch and not getting current to the lifting motor you can power the dc motor with a 24 volt or so cordless battery. might be something simple as a tripped switch in the box. Replacement transformers for these are easy to find here.

When the lifting motor went out of our Martin shaper I removed it and ran the up and down with a driver on a cordless drill. We had a new motor in a couple days.
Joe

[Rick Fisher]

Sorry about your planer Larry

I got jinxed too .. lol

When I fired up the new Planer .. It ran fine, but when I turn it off, it trips 2 micro breakers in the T-60 slider.

Like Gremlins. Slider is sitting there, not being used, and it shuts down ..

So I shifted all the wires on the breaker in the 3 phase panel.. and the problem went away ..

Except now when I turn the T-60 table saw off .. it trips the exact same breakers Q11 and Q12 on the Planer

Its actually kinda funny ..

So it appears I need to disconnect the power from one Martin Machine in order to be able to run the other ..

They are only connected through a 3 phase panel, each has its own breaker ..

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Sorry about your planer Larry

I got jinxed too .. lol

When I fired up the new Planer .. It ran fine, but when I turn it off, it trips 2 micro breakers in the T-60 slider.

Like Gremlins. Slider is sitting there, not being used, and it shuts down ..

So I shifted all the wires on the breaker in the 3 phase panel.. and the problem went away ..

Except now when I turn the T-60 table saw off .. it trips the exact same breakers Q11 and Q12 on the Planer

Its actually kinda funny ..

So it appears I need to disconnect the power from one Martin Machine in order to be able to run the other ..

They are only connected through a 3 phase panel, each has its own breaker ..

So you cannot run both machines at the same time?

[Brian Holcombe]

Sounds like something that Martin (the company) would advise on.

[Rick Fisher]

So you cannot run both machines at the same time?


Nooo.. worse than that ..

Picture a machine sitting ... doing nothing .. nobody working on it.. It has an internal electrical cabinet with its own breaker, contactors etc.

You run an entirely different machine, and when you turn it off.. it causes breakers to trip in the machine which is sitting there doing nothing ..

In order to run one machine, I need to completely isolate the other one .. Turning it off isn't sufficient, it needs its breaker turned off ..

There are 5 machines running off that panel.. its the two Martins that are screwing with each other .. I'm getting an electrician to come next week and run a bunch of tests.

[Warren Lake]

this happens sometimes, you have a pet get another one and have issues, you have a child stork brings another one and then issues, mom likes you best type thing. I can trade you an SCM for either and you would be fine. Know im grasping at straws here but just trying to help :)

[Larry Edgerton]

Nooo.. worse than that ..

Picture a machine sitting ... doing nothing .. nobody working on it.. It has an internal electrical cabinet with its own breaker, contactors etc.

You run an entirely different machine, and when you turn it off.. it causes breakers to trip in the machine which is sitting there doing nothing ..

In order to run one machine, I need to completely isolate the other one .. Turning it off isn't sufficient, it needs its breaker turned off ..

There are 5 machines running off that panel.. its the two Martins that are screwing with each other .. I'm getting an electrician to come next week and run a bunch of tests.

Things look better in odd numbers, I suspect if you add a shaper that all will be well.:)

[Larry Edgerton]

Larry, If it is a problem with a dc transformer or switch and not getting current to the lifting motor you can power the dc motor with a 24 volt or so cordless battery. might be something simple as a tripped switch in the box. Replacement transformers for these are easy to find here.

When the lifting motor went out of our Martin shaper I removed it and ran the up and down with a driver on a cordless drill. We had a new motor in a couple days.
Joe

It was the transformer Joe, but in anticipation of that day I had a new one on the shelf. Was back up and running in no time, took me longer to find the transformer than to fix it.

[Rick Fisher]

Glad you where able to fix it so fast Larry .. how long did that Transformer last ?

[Larry Edgerton]

I get your point Rick but consider if it was a computerized control system rather than a simple DC lift motor, I would not have been able to fix it myself. Thats the part I do not like.

[Rick Fisher]

I agree Larry .. I was actually curious how old the planer is ..


Complicated electronics have me stumped right now .. I can run the planer, or run the slider, but I have to completely disconnect the other machine (not being used) from the electrical before I do ..

I'm sure it will get resolved, but its annoying ..

[Larry Edgerton]

I bought it new about 20 years ago, this was the first malfunction other than the boots rotting off. I made them throw in a transformer as part of the deal along with ten sets of Tersa knives.

[Rick Fisher]

You remember what you paid for it ?

[Rick Fisher]

I had an electrician over today to look at the Martin issues.. He fixed it in 20 minutes.. He tested the transformers in the machines.. Tested the Phase Perfect hot wires to each other and to ground. When testing terminals to ground the Phase Perfect gave 117V 117V and 213V ..

He went to the transformers again.. tested them again .. Then moved some wires in the breaker box.. And said .. try it ..

Fixed.

He basically wired the two Martin Machines so the leg that was 208 (213) to ground wasn't powering the transformers.

I asked why the other machines didn't have issues .. he said they where different.

The machines run flawless now ..

[David Kumm]

I had the same problem and meant to post about it but forgot. I had a SCMI with a transformer. Wires into the machine were numbered and I was careful to not use the 208 to the transformer. Took me more like 20 hours to figure out the number rings were swapped so 2 on main terminal turned into 3 on the compartment with transformer. Your electrician is ten times smarter. I have a couple extra transformers now. Dave

[Joe Jensen]

Apparently the manufactured leg is not referenced to ground ? Any experts out there?

[Larry Edgerton]

You remember what you paid for it ?

I bought it off the floor at the Grand Rapids show and hauled it home on my truck, paid $9600. I stole it!:D

I waited till the show was over and vendors were starting to pack, then laid down cash. That was about $3K off of list with the Tersa. At that time the Tersa head was a $2k option.

[David Kumm]

Way above my pay grade but PP creates a mfg leg that measures 208v to ground. High leg Delta vs 208 which has all three legs measuring 120 to ground. Although any two legs measure 240 to each other, using the mfg leg seems to screw up a transformer with 240v input such as what is in many Euro machines. Using a transformer to step voltage up to 480 or 600 works fine although there are grounding issues, particularly if reverse feeding an isolation transformer. I just used two transformers to get to 600v and because multiple single phase transformers wired open delta are delta to delta vs delta to wye, you need to corner ground the high side. My point here is that lots of reading is needed before hooking up transformers. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

Like I said previously, you need to keep track of the generated leg and keep it off of sensitive electronics, coils and control transformers.

label that wire everywhere.

So nice have 480v pole power.

[Martin Wasner]

So nice have 480v pole power.

I don't know how you anyone could do this job without 3 phase. 480 is just nice so you don't have run a billion amps into the building. (And it's nice buying less wire on 480v)

The crux is always distribution and panel space though.

[Martin Wasner]

I bought it off the floor at the Grand Rapids show and hauled it home on my truck, paid $9600. I stole it!:D

I waited till the show was over and vendors were starting to pack, then laid down cash. That was about $3K off of list with the Tersa. At that time the Tersa head was a $2k option.


I don't know if you have a 24" or a 20", but a new 24" scm class is about $18k today, not including shipping, tax, and whatever else they can tack on. That's after playing three different salesmen against one another to get that price. I thought I had a line on a 24" Kolle, but I took too long to make up my mind and it sold.

If I go new, it's one of those dumbass deals, where I go okay, I can get the class machine for $18k, but I might as well get the L'invicible for $23k since it'll look sexy sitting in the shop, but I might as well spend a little bit more and just get the Martin....

I'm hoping something suitable pops up used within a few states sometime soon. I'm not real thrilled about dropping that kind of money on a planer. If I go new, I'll likely just go with the scm class.

[Mike Kreinhop]

I don't know how you anyone could do this job without 3 phase. 480 is just nice so you don't have run a billion amps into the building. (And it's nice buying less wire on 480v)

The crux is always distribution and panel space though.

In Germany, the standard for residential dwellings is three-phase 400/230V service. Almost all hobbyist, and serious, shop equipment is available in 230V and 400V versions.

[David Kumm]

Martin, Steve in CO had a Kolle planer that looked pristine. Have you tried him? Dave

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, Steve in CO had a Kolle planer that looked pristine. Have you tried him? Dave

That's the one I dilly dallied on and it's sold. Ya' snooze, ya' looze.... It fit the bill all around. Right options, right quality, right head, right price point.

I'm still hanging onto a twinge of hope that the other guy doesn't buy it and Steve doesn't lose my phone number.

[David Kumm]

Steve had a Kolle jointer with it that he wouldn't sell. Good guy. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

I had a Kolle planer, it was a sweet finish planer. The guy I sold it to wants my 24" Buss 4l and I will probably take the Kolle back in trade.

I have a 25" Baurele that I still have not got around to yet. Looks to be a nice finish planer as well.

I have owned 20 planers and nothing beats a Buss. I have two 24's and a 30.
my 30 has VS feed and one shot oil lube.

[Rick Fisher]

Martin, why not import one from Europe ? Seems like there's lots of used quality machines for sale over there.

[Marty Schlosser]

I'm a former pro, now fully retired and making everything from furniture to fences for family members and ourselves. My shop is a 1,100 sq ft basement set-up with a direct entry stairway from the garage.

I have a mix of, well, everything! Felder slider, vintage Wadkin 16" jointer, Wadkin Bursgreen 18" planer & General 20" bandsaw, Oneway lathe, Felder slot mortiser, Craftex shaper and so on. I'm a machine user, not a restorer and museum owner. For me, I prefer high-end quality built machines, which most of mine are. I don't care where or when they were built, as long as they're precise, work efficiently and safely.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, why not import one from Europe ? Seems like there's lots of used quality machines for sale over there.

You mentioned that before somewhere.

Seems like a lot of trouble potentially? The dollar is doing pretty well against the euro right now, but I think the shipping could be insanely expensive. Then the risk of damage moving something half way across the planet. If you buy a new machine, the manufacture will make it right, used I'd think you'd be on your own fighting the shipper and dealing with the problem.

[peter gagliardi]

Martin, are you feeling ok??
I've watched and read your posts for a few years now, and there is one thing that was abundantly clear in a lot of them- you buy used, because buying new is expensive, and painful.
Lately I have seen mention a few times of new stuff.
You must be getting tired, or too busy to bother with the hunt for used, or been burned on used? Something.
I buy used and new, and like some from both, but a planer is one of those machines that I personally cannot see the payback on.
I'm just picking your brain as to how another business owner rationalizes where to allocate the funds.
For me, sanders, molders, and shapers are the best bang for the buck machines.
I almost bought another new Martin shaper last year at IWF, but passed after looking them over. Looked at a few used, and just got in an '06 T26 that had 53!!! hours on it with tenoning table and duo-control. It gave me fits for a few days, but now I am in control - mostly.

Maybe it was the recent un-aquisition trip for the sander. :eek:

[Martin Wasner]

Maybe it was the recent un-aquisition trip for the sander. :eek:

Too soon Peter, too soon.... :D

I will certainly say in most instances, new is a mistake. I have bought my fair share of new things. Some I regret, others I'm glad I went new. Some things just make sense to buy new and not have to be worrying about who did what to it. I bought my Striebig and widebelt new for those reasons. My used acquisitions are almost always done when I don't NEED the tool. I NEEDED an automatic dovetailer, and a week later it was on the floor. (Though I didn't know it was going to take almost 100 drawers to get it dialed in and more like 300 to get it where I wanted, so I should've ordered it much sooner.)

Three tools I'm on hunt for right now. The right 24" planer, a rotisserie door clamp, and a PMK automatic coper. I really want to get the planer situated before I move into the new building, which is looking like three weeks away.


I've outgrown my little planer and it's starting too show its age. I knew about that Kolle back in February, but I was hoarding cash for the shop project and didn't want to tie up capital. I'm really low on breaker space for single phase stuff, and I really don't want to waste time wiring up the old one. It is time to move on and I'm approaching it being a NEED.

[Warren Lake]

Martin is there an advantage to an automatic dovetailer compared to a multi pin 15 or 25 unit

[Martin Wasner]

Martin is there an advantage to an automatic dovetailer compared to a multi pin 15 or 25 unit

Dialing in all those bit heights is a nightmare. I've never set one up with that many spindles, but a shop I worked at had a 4 or 5 spindle dodds dovetailer. I had to change the bits once. Unless there's something I didn't know, it took me a while to get the heights even, and at the correct height for fitment.

I would do a dedicated cnc dovetailer if I had the money. Omec has some really nice machines. I was looking at a midline machine, I think it was $30k. My Cantek was $10k. It works, but a cnc model will have a little faster turn around time for a set of corners than my Cantek. There's other advantages too, like the ability to climb cut, and adjustable rate of travel mid cut. Plus you can vary pin spacing.

Years ago I priced out a Mereen Johnson cnc dovetailer. It had I think 10 spindles. Holy crap fast. It did the fronts and back separately, and the sides together at once. $60k. The 5-600 drawers we crank out a year can't come close to justifying that cost. You'd need to be doing that or better a week.

[Warren Lake]

Brookman 15 and 25 the 25 anyway should be able to do a whole drawer in 2 minutes or faster, they do a side and back then another side and back at the same time. So once loaded two steps. Ive seen the 15 pin running a few years back and it was set up well and fast. that one was a manual machine so he could climb cut and feed any rate as it was him moving the sled. Im not sure how the partially automated ones work if they climb or not just seen them in a number of shops. ys you cant change pin spacing. I like the look of the Leigh alot better but know its slow far too slow for what most people are doing.

[Martin Wasner]

Another reason to Peter. When I move into the new building I have a pile of used equipment I've never used, that has been patiently sitting in storage, that will need attention and some level of tinkering to get running the way I want.

18" Whirlwind cutoff saw, with a 10' Tigerstop.
Tannawitz Type U tablesaw.
Northfield #4 tablesaw.
Diehl rip saw
SAC jointer
Castle machine

I have zero idea how my new compressor works.

I have no clue if my baghouse is functional.


Plus all the stuff that is currently in service and will need checking and possible adjustments just from being moved.

[Joe Calhoon]

360462
Spending a week at the Holzfachschule in Germany. They have a nice setup for planing. A Rex for rough planing and a Martin for finish.
They have a lot of CNC here and I asked if they train woodworkers on troubleshooting electronics. They said it is not allowed for non electricians to work on machinery. They rely on the techs for this. I suppose a lot easier here from the source.

[Rick Fisher]

More pictures Joe.

[Will Boulware]

More pictures Joe.

Yes please!!! That looks incredible!

[Joe Calhoon]

I have pictures but hard to post from my phone. I will put something together when I get home.