Tree of Heaven ( I think ) and turnings

[William C Rogers]

Our local club challenge was to turn something from firewood. On the pile was some wood that had very little heart wood, but a whole lot of sap wood. I initially thought it might be young walnut. However a club member was fairly certain it was the "Tree of Heaven". I think he is correct, Googling I could find bark pictures and it appears to match. I couldn't find any cross sections. There is very little character to the wood.

Are there any different opinions? The wood turns and sands nicely. Here are some of the pieces I have made. The vase is about 7" tall and 4 1/2" at the widest and has a natural edge opening There is some cracking at the pith that I filled. The largest bowl is 6" diameter and 2 1/2' high. I put sone holes, since the sapwood doesn't have much character.

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This is is a birdhouse made from the same wood. The top is made from box elder ( I think ). Overall hiegth of the birdhouse is 12" and about 8" wide at the top. Too big for a wire type stand so I made one. The base was cut from the same wood so you can see the amount of sap wood.

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This is is a picture of the bark.
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CC are welcome as all this was practicing for when I get that prize piece.

Edits: getting pictures correct, at least better.

[Bob Bouis]

Tree of heaven's leaves are easily confused for walnut, especially in saplings. Never seen the wood so I have no idea.

[Steve Schlumpf]

No idea of the wood - your photo of the bark shows as invalid. I do like your variety of turnings - especially the vase. Nice form on that!

[William C Rogers]

No idea of the wood - your photo of the bark shows as invalid. I do like your variety of turnings - especially the vase. Nice form on that!

Thanks Steve. I got the bark picture to open, but I really don't understand as I have 8 attachments. Not sure which ones to cut, but working so I'll leave it alone.

[Steve Schlumpf]

William - I see the bark photo now and in my expert opinion - it looks like part of a tree!

I think you are getting a little confused as to how to post images into a thread. Check out this older thread and see if it doesn't clear things up for you. If you are still having issues - let me know and we'll figure it out. Posting Photos (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?167711-posting-photos-as-of-June-2011)

[William C Rogers]

William - I see the bark photo now and in my expert opinion - it looks like part of a tree!

I think you are getting a little confused as to how to post images into a thread. Check out this older thread and see if it doesn't clear things up for you. If you are still having issues - let me know and we'll figure it out. Posting Photos (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?167711-posting-photos-as-of-June-2011)
Steve, normally I don't have a problem. I use an iPad and photos were from iPhone emailed to myself. I use an app to resize, but I think I made them too small. I just don't know which ones to delete in manage photos.

[Steve Schlumpf]

William, click on edit post, then click on go advanced. Once there scroll down and click on Manage Attachments. You should be able to identify which photo is which in that window and delete the files you do not want. Hope that helps.

[William C Rogers]

William, click on edit post, then click on go advanced. Once there scroll down and click on Manage Attachments. You should be able to identify which photo is which in that window and delete the files you do not want. Hope that helps.
Figured it out. Pics were only about 15kb that didn't work. Your expertise is intact as that is part of a tree.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Your expertise is intact as that is part of a tree.

Good to know - I'll be able to sleep tonight!

[Reed Gray]

Only turned a couple of pieces from tree of heaven. It had no heart wood (18 inch diameter). It had a bitter smell to it, and holding a bowl up to the light, you could see a bunch of tiny holes/pores in it.

robo hippy

[daryl moses]

Can't help identify the type of wood but all of your turnings look great. Especially like the bird house!!

[Toby Bouder]

Looking at the bark, my first thought was butternut. It doesn't look like tree of heaven to me and I don't think toh has dark heartwood.

[Bob Bouis]

If it was walnut or butternut you'd have a distinctive hollow pith, even on smaller branches.

[John K Jordan]

...a club member was fairly certain it was the "Tree of Heaven". I think he is correct, Googling I could find bark pictures and it appears to match. I couldn't find any cross sections. There is very little character to the wood.
...

The Ailanthus trees I've cut did not have bark that looked like that. However, the part you showed may be atypical with apparent wound growth. You also didn't indicate how big the log in the picture is so that could be an issue. Older and larger trees often have very different bark.

The wood of the many Ailanthus (Tree of Heaven) I've cut was white without a darker heart wood. When clearing behind my barn some years ago I cut down and dug up the stumps of an infestation of maybe 20-30 Ailanthus trees, some fairly large in diameter.

The wood, bark, and leaves of the ailanthus have a bad odor. The male trees are worse than the female. Ailanthus is one of the worst of the invasive species. It was imported and planted as an ornamental since people thought it looked "tropical." Please kill all of them!

Check this page for a description and photo of the end grain: http://www.wood-database.com/ailanthus/ Ailanthus is ring porous. Use a razor blade to shave a small section on the endgrain of a small piece and compare the rings and pores.

JKJ

[William C Rogers]

The tree was only about 10-12" at the largest diameter, so I would call it a young tree. Butternut does seem to be a possibility. When I was looking at the possibility of butternut, I came across a hickory section that looked very similar. Could this be some type of hickory? However it does turn and sand easily which is not a hickory characteristic. The wood did not smell and is not porous, so I don't think it is the Tree of Heaven. Here are a couple of more pictures. The piece on the lathe I have turned thin, about 3/32".


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Daryl, thanks for the comments.

[Reed Gray]

The butter nut that I have turned was a nice brown color, and smelled kind of like vinegar when cutting. Branches typically have a scalloped growth ring pattern rather than straight rings. The first picture above makes me think of Persian (English) walnut that has been grafted onto black walnut. It would have a distinct walnut smell, but not as strong as the black walnut. Smell is one important identifier. Had a friend who found a tree he thought was butter nut. He didn't do the sniff test. Right color, but catalpa, which I do not like...

robo hippy

[John K Jordan]

The tree was only about 10-12" at the largest diameter, so I would call it a young tree. Butternut does seem to be a possibility. When I was looking at the possibility of butternut, I came across a hickory section that looked very similar. Could this be some type of hickory? However it does turn and sand easily which is not a hickory characteristic. The wood did not smell and is not porous, so I don't think it is the Tree of Heaven. Here are a couple of more pictures. The piece on the lathe I have turned thin, about 3/32".


Again, it's really worth shaving and looking at the end grain with a hand lens. It may not tell you the exact species but it often eliminates a bunch of guesses.

Butternut: semi-ring porous, distinct rings
http://www.wood-database.com/butternut/

Shagbark Hickory: ring porous
http://www.wood-database.com/shagbark-hickory/
Pignut Hickory
http://www.wood-database.com/pignut-hickory/
Shellbark Hickory - look at the pores in this one:
http://www.wood-database.com/shellbark-hickory/

About hickory/pecan:
http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/true-hickory-and-pecan-hickory/

As you can see, the Wood Database is one of the useful on-line references. When I'm trying to ID a piece of wood I use it, Hobbithouseinc, and a stack of books including my favorite, R. Bruce Hoadley's "Identifying Wood"

JKJ

[William C Rogers]

What I believe this wood is hackberry. Using the wood database I went through butternut, hickory, walnut and poplar. The endgrain pictures did not match. Hackberry is found in my area. Here are some pictures of the endgrain that I believe matches hackberry. Agree?

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the wood database http://www.wood-database.com/hackberry/

[Malcolm McLeod]

The picture of the bark doesn't look like Hackberry to me...? Hackberry (around here) generally has a medium grey, smooth bark, with distinctive 'warts'.

[Ian Lerner]

The bark of the wood looks a lot like Cottonwood.

[Bob Bouis]

Southern hackberry (sugarberry) looks like a different from the yankee stuff. Sugarberry has much smoother bark (and rarely seems to have heartwood).

[robert baccus]

Hackberry and elms have that wiggly grain in the summer wood.

[William C Rogers]

Thanks for all the help. Looking at the wood database this wood is more likely American elm to me. The database says the heartwood is a reddish brown which matches better than hackberry. Also indicates that very young trees have very little heartwood and mostly sapwood. The end grain seems to match ( but so does hackberry). Finally it says elm is resistant to cracking and the wood was sitting in the wood pile for about a year and there is very little cracking.

[Frank Drew]

William,

Photos can be difficult to fully assess, but those in your first post don't look to me like Ailanthus (Tree of Heaven, a marketing term if there ever was one!)

As John said, Ailanthus is ring porous; the wood I've seen can be mistaken for ash. It is a weed tree around here but the wood can be surprisingly "serious" looking. Locals sometimes call it summer wood because it burns quickly and hot, ideal to take the chill off the kitchen on those early summer mornings.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I know for sure that it is NOT Ailanthus, I’ve turned a bunch of it from smaller to a real giant Ailanthus logs, The largest one I could just cut lengths from with a 24” long Chainsaw going at it from both sides.

The wood is smelly, more so than Elm, it has no dark heartwood, and distinctive yellower year rings at the edge of the sapwood going to the heartwood.

I find it turns a lot like Willow when wet, (fuzzy) but works much better when dry, can be finished very nicely.

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For what you have, it looks a lot like some Red Elm I have here, but not sure of it, Hackberry that I see here has the ridges and white wood.

[Ron Rutter]

What I believe this wood is hackberry. Using the wood database I went through butternut, hickory, walnut and poplar. The endgrain pictures did not match. Hackberry is found in my area. Here are some pictures of the endgrain that I believe matches hackberry. Agree?

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the wood database http://www.wood-database.com/hackberry/

That first end section looks alot like acacia to me.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

What I believe this wood is hackberry. Using the wood database I went through butternut, hickory, walnut and poplar. The endgrain pictures did not match. Hackberry is found in my area. Here are some pictures of the endgrain that I believe matches hackberry. Agree?

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the wood database http://www.wood-database.com/hackberry/

There are more woods that have that kind of grain, like Honey Locust, but the bark of these trees don’t look anything like what you are showing, Smaller Elm tree bark does though.

You can compare these two.

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[William C Rogers]

There are more woods that have that kind of grain, like Honey Locust, but the bark of these trees don’t look anything like what you are showing, Smaller Elm tree bark does though.

You can compare these two.

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Leo, thanks for the help. I feel fairly certain it is elm. I'm leaning toward American Elm, but could also be Red elm as you suggested. The bark does match your picture of young elm. I looked at the Honey Locus, but think the Elm endgrain is a better match. I went and got what was left on the wood pile. Although only 6-8" I can use it for Christmas ornaments as it turns and sands well.