80W RayFine - just dropped half power

[Ryan Matthews]

Hi there - Its been a little while since I've commented on anything as I mostly lurk in the shadows and read and read and read....and I really still have so much to learn its tough to feel like I can add more value than so many of you - but I wanted to thank those of you that do comment since I have learned so much from so many of you. Thank you.

The problem that I've run in to is with my 80-watt Ray Fine 1390 that I imported from Blanca last November. Aside from the normal growing pains and adjustments that go with a Chinese import things had been going fairly well until today when I was a third of the way through a cut file with 3 rows of text that I was cutting out of 1/8" baltic birch. Things seemed to be going ok - but when I went to pull the cuttings out of the machine only the top row had cut through - and the bottom two rows were not even close to cutting through. I know that most will think its an alignment issue (trust me i checked) - - but I am dead center on all planes - - I spent a long long time getting there - and i rechecked and its all still pretty perfect.

When I went to run further tests i noticed that my Ma reading at 60% power was only registering 8-10 Ma on my machine - which is about half of what I normally would see. When i went into the software and upped the power via RDWorks to 100% - the Ma reading only went up to 12 Ma....well below the 32 that I should be seeing at 100% power.

I went into the Vendor settings and checked to make sure the Min and Max were set at 1 and 99%. and they were.

I also puled out the Multimeter to make sure that 220v were still making it to the power supply and they were (line conditioned and steady at 222v)

What could be causing this?

I am at a total loss. What do you guys think?

I've emailed Blanca as well and will update this thread with her thoughts when I get them.

Thank you in advance.
Ryan

[Bert McMahan]

Sounds like you have a dead tube and/or PSU.

By the way, easy check to diagnose possible beam clipping issues where you lose lots of power- right after a reasonably long job runs, touch all metal parts to see if they're warm. Often if you're clipping a beam on a mirror or your air cone it'll heat up quite a bit (though not always).

[Matt McCoy]

It is likely a power supply, in my opinion.

[Ryan Matthews]

Bert and Matt - Thank you for your replies - I agree I think its either the PSU or the Tube. What surprised me was just how fast it went from 'normal' operation to being pretty much dead....I thought for the tube at least the power loss was somewhat gradual....maybe I'm mistaken on that.

For a test - this morning I swapped in the original PSU (which was replaced under warranty since it had intermittent operating issues ie. sometimes worked fine...sometimes didn't work at all) and when I wired it in and used its "test" button I was still only getting up to 12-14Ma on the meter. Makes me think that the issue must be with the Tube....right?

Anyhow - I've heard back from RayFine and they think that its the PSU and they are sending me a new one and would like me to return the one that is in the machine now. If the new PSU does not solve the problem she mentioned potentially replacing the tube under warranty with EFR. Sounds like I'm going to be down for a while.

If anyone else has any thoughts or suggestions/questions I'd appreciate any/all help.

Cheers!

Ryan

[Dave Sheldrake]

Check the HT line, the chinese high tension lines are pretty poor quality and can *leak*

[Anthony Nguyen]

I don't know much about your machine as I've only used Galvo Fiber Laser. The only thing I could say is that Ray Fine still support your machine. I bought 1 from a Chinese company and they stopped supporting or providing warranty after 1 month. I'm ordering my next machine with Ray Fine!!!

[Ryan Matthews]

Dave -

Thanks for the reply - when you say to check the high tension lines for 'leaks' - - would you be able to provide a bit more direction?

Are you suggesting that there could possibly be a 'leak' or discharge of power leaving the power supply on its way to the terminal on the laser tube? How might one test for this or find the leak? I have basic understandings of wiring and laser systems - but I've always tried to steer clear of the HT line side of things.

Thanks again,
Ryan

[Bill George]

Ryan, Dave is in the UK but he will be back. Turn off the power and let it set for perhaps an hour or longer, remove the cover on the tube and the HV lead is the heavy red lead. Looks kind of like a spark plug wire. Examine it and the route it takes back to the power supply. Look for black or sooty marks where it might be arcing to ground. Another way that is safe only if you keep your hands away is power it up with the covers removed, lower or turn off the lights and do a test run. Watch for the arcing and listen for the sounds. Turn off the power and wait again before touching anything.

[Matt McCoy]

You're welcome Ryan.

How to test a power supply:

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-test-and-set-a-Chinese-China-made-CO2-Laser/

[Bill George]

He already has a mA meter and it shows low.

[Jerome Stanek]

He already has a mA meter and it shows low.


It shows low with the tube hooked up there could be a problem with the tube

[Dave Sheldrake]

Bill covered the HT line stuff really well Ryan :)

On the tube, it's possible but the mode of failure for a DC tube is usually slow decline or instant failure, it's rare to see them lose power half way through a cut in the way Ryan is talking about even in the event of heat buildup. I'm wondering if the signal wire is providing the correct voltage.....0-5v

humm just on the off chance Ryan, check the screen to make sure the laser maximum power hasn't been set to 50% or such like, it's unlikely halfway through a cut but possible I guess.

[Matt McCoy]

He already has a mA meter and it shows low.

That Instructable also has some safety tips and best practices that might help isolate and test the PS.


It shows low with the tube hooked up there could be a problem with the tube


...the mode of failure for a DC tube is usually slow decline or instant failure, it's rare to see them lose power half way through a cut...

Good info Dave. This is is my understanding too and why I guessed PS.

[Ryan Matthews]

Dave -

I have some instructions via RayFine and their PSU supplier to check the voltage on the signal wire...I will be doing that tonight when I get home from work. The two things that they want me to check for are:
1. connect 5v and IN on laser power supply and then press the test button and check the MA reading
2. check the voltage between GND and TL - at 100% power it should be reading 5v at 70% power it should be reading 3v (or a little more)

I'll run these tests tonight and see what the readings are.

Thanks again to everyone on the site for their help and suggestions.

I inspected the HT line and didn't see any black spots or any signs of arcing....so maybe it is the signal wire.

Also - first thing I checked was the Max Power setting - wondering if maybe I had 'clocked' the machine on accident....I checked at the controller and also in the Vendor settings. neither were an issue (even though I hoped it was just that simple!)

Cheers
Ryan

[Bill George]

Ryan as I recall this is your second PS, if not ignore. But check carefully for a loose connection as screw terminals or pinched wire going to that PS, it could very well be that.

[Ryan Matthews]

Bill your memory is correct - this is the second PSU - I'll definitely trace the wires back to the controller and check for loose connections or pinching. thanks for the tip.

[John Lifer]

Ryan, didn't you buy machine with 220V incoming line voltage? Is the PSU direct off the line or is it 120v with transformer dropping to 120v? Mine is 120V incoming.
Just wondering!

[Ryan Matthews]

Hey John - yes - I did buy the machine with 220v incoming line voltage - The PSU is direct off the line with 220v. maybe I should have gone with the 120v....you've seemed to have fewer issues than I have ;-)

[Bill George]

How do you know you have 220 volts? On 220 or actually 240 in most cases you can have one side of the line open as open fuse or wire burnt off issue and have the unit appear to work just fine. I have seen it happen a lot as I was a troubleshooting electrician as industrial and not a house romex installer! Unless you measure with a good voltmeter you don't know.

[John Lifer]

Bill hit it. Make sure both sides are hot. And knowing how good those Chinese parts are, look for something damaged before the PSU! Oh, No telling, mine might crap out tomorrow! I for one power Everything to my outlets, I don't run anything into those chinese sockets.....

[Ryan Matthews]

Bill and John - thanks for the suggestion. I'll reinspect the power lines coming into the PSU and measure voltage.

The wiring setup is 240v dedicated circuit - Tripplite line conditioner - machine. The last time I checked the voltage going to the PSU I just checked the combined voltage of the two lines. Read 222 consistently. My understanding is that L1 to L2 nominal voltage reading should be ~220 - L1 to Ground should be ~110 - L2 to Ground ~110.....am I overlooking something before I get home and get the multimeter back in there?

Thank you all for your suggestions - this group is a huge help - as my wife doesn't like to work "under the hood" ;-)

[Bill George]

You should have just 220/230 across L1 L2 , There is no neutral on those Chinese - European 220 volt circuits. US yes. They run one hot 220 and one other leg that may be grounded as a neutral. The plugs may or may not be polarized. The US 220 works fine as is on those machines.

[Ryan Matthews]

Bill - I double checked the wiring and also the voltage going into the PSU - L1 L2 reading was 221v steady coming from the Tripplite conditioner. When I bypass the conditioner and plugged the machine straight into my outlet - the reading at the PSU fluctuated a bit but held fairly consistently at 245v - - I feel comfortable that the Tripplite conditioner is functioning as it should leveling the power output and holding steady at 221v. Which all appear to be making it to the PSU uninterrupted.

When performing the checks that RayFine suggested -
1. connecting IN and 5V and then firing the TEST button on the PSU the MA reading remained the same as it has been.
2. When testing the voltage between GND and TL I had a steady reading of 4.84v with the controller set to MAX PWR of 99% - - however when I reset the controller to MAX PWR of 69% the TL and GND Voltage was unchanged at 4.84v - - the communication with RayFine indicated that at roughly 70% PWR the reading should be around 3v...........not sure what the lack of change means - I've asked them for more feedback if my adjustment via the controller lowering the Max Power down to 69% should have led to their desired effect or if I should have made the changes in the vendor settings and then written them to the machine?.....I'm waiting to hear back.

Thanks again to all that have commented and made suggestions. I really appreciate that group here and the pool of knowledge that exists.

Regardless of my tests they have shipped a new PSU - - so at least this is moving forward - - - if the new PSU has no positive impact they are prepared to make a warranty replacement on the tube.

Will keep you all posted....and if anyone has any other thoughts of things to try I'm all ears.

Thanks again.
Ryan

[John Lifer]

I dont have anything else to contribute, other than at least they are taking care of you one way or another. Keep up informed. As to mine working well, I'm not giving mine near the workout your wife is to yours!

[Dave Sheldrake]

Based on what you just said I'd say the mainboard is the problem, if there is no change in the signal voltage when the power is changed that will be the most likely problem :(

[Ray Scott]

Sounds like the problem is surely the Laser tube or the Laser Power Supply. The problem is that you can't test a laser tube without a known-good power supply and a good light laser power meter. Many people use the milliAmp meter to correlate the current flow to the output of laser power. I have seen failed power supplies and fouled laser tubes. Either situation can provide low milliAmp readings.

You can test the laser power supply with a special resistor. We use the 100watt resistor with value of 100,000 ohms. Don't overheat the resistor! Some laser companies send a resistor with their laser machines for testing later.

thank You,

[Ryan Matthews]

Dave,

On the bright side - the new PSU arrived and after I installed it I seem to be back in business. 99% power runs at 28Ma so it appears that we're back in business. However - the signal voltage issue persists.....Can you walk me through how you would test for this? My understanding was to measure the voltage between G and TL. When doing so with the controller set to 99% power my reading is 4.88v - - when I "pulse" the voltage drops to .23 after it bounces around a bit - - but then when I change the MaxPwr setting on the controller to 69% the voltage remains 4.88v and drops in the same manner when I 'pulse' the laser.... I thought it should be dropping to around 3v at 69% max PWR.

Am I missing something or simply misunderstanding something....or worse - is this a condition that leads to PSU failure at some point down the line as I'm on my third PSU now in 5 months.

Thanks all for the help and comments.

For those still reading - and considering RayFine for an order - Blanca is amazing - even though i've had some issues with the machine - she has always responded promptly to emails and calls for help - definitely a great customer service agent.

Ryan

[Bill George]

I could be wrong but I think that 0-5 volt signal might also be a PWM signal, and you will need to google that to get a good answer. But you need a special meter to check.

[Ryan Matthews]

Bill - thanks for the reply - I'll try and do some googling on that tomorrow when I have some time.

Cheers.
Ryan