Tool buying ethics?

[Frederick Skelly]

Here's a fun one just to stimulate some discussion. I'll use a personal example because I can, but the question can apply to many purchases. Here goes.......

I'm still thinking about buying an LV shooting plane. Everyone has told me I'll notice the difference over the LA Jack and #6 I currently use. But what if I buy one, and after using it, I don't feel like it's enough improvement to warrant the cost? Is returning it taking advantage of a reputable company?

Sure, they will gladly take it back AND pay the return shipping. That's a cornerstone of their business. But there's something uncomfortable to me in returning a fully functional tool that does everything it's supposed to just because of personal preference. I mean, it's not THEIR fault I bought something and didn't "like" it. OTOH, you can argue that's always been an inherent risk in the mail order business - that the customer will occasionally return something that "looked different than it was in the catalog", etc. And that having a "no questions asked" return policy makes the customer confident buying mail order.

What do you think folks?

Fred

[An extreme example (IMO) is buying a tool just to try it out. For example, we had a new member here a couple years ago that bought 2 "similar" LV and LN planes, fully intending to keep only the one he liked best. He saw nothing wrong with that. To each his own, I guess.]

[Prashun Patel]

Use your own moral compass.

personally, I would try a tool out like that for a long while before deciding you like or do not like it. Keep it for a year. Then sell it used if you do not want it. You will sell for so close to your purchase price my guess is a guy like you will regard the net rent you paid as a bargain price for a year long evaluation.

[lowell holmes]

Are you more interested in tool collecting or working wood?

My own situation on buying tools is that I keep them, so I can't identify with sending them back. I never buy a tool that I don't really want.

[Stanley Covington]

Here's a fun one just to stimulate some discussion. I'll use a personal example because I can, but the question can apply to many purchases. Here goes.......

I'm still thinking about buying an LV shooting plane. Everyone has told me I'll notice the difference over the LA Jack and #6 I currently use. But what if I buy one, and after using it, I don't feel like it's enough improvement to warrant the cost? Is returning it taking advantage of a reputable company?

Sure, they will gladly take it back AND pay the return shipping. That's a cornerstone of their business. But there's something uncomfortable to me in returning a fully functional tool that does everything it's supposed to just because of personal preference. I mean, it's not THEIR fault I bought something and didn't "like" it. OTOH, you can argue that's always been an inherent risk in the mail order business - that the customer will occasionally return something that "looked different than it was in the catalog", etc. And that having a "no questions asked" return policy makes the customer confident buying mail order.

What do you think folks?

Fred

[An extreme example (IMO) is buying a tool just to try it out. For example, we had a new member here a couple years ago that bought 2 "similar" LV and LN planes, fully intending to keep only the one he liked best. He saw nothing wrong with that. To each his own, I guess.]

I think there are some fine points to consider.

When we buy a tool sight unseen (other than pictures on a webpage or magazine), we face a dilemma because we of course ask ourselves: "How well is it made?" "Is it likely to perform as advertised?" Because we cannot actually handle the tool before purchasing, we experience doubts, and more often than not, choose not to buy something that looks useful because of these doubts.

It is reassuring to know we can return a tool, after we see it and handle it, and we decide it is not what we expected. Online and catalog retailers know we face this dilemma, and so to encourage us to buy tools sight unseen, many of them allow returns IF THE TOOL IS UNUSED AND CAN BE RESOLD WITHOUT A LOSS.

There are financial costs, and inventory management headaches, retailers with this understanding policy suffer. We should support retailers with a liberal return policy even if their products cost a bit more. Consider it insurance.

Other such retailers do not allow returns. That is OK too so long as they have made their return policy clear.

It is the duty of the buyer to investigate the retailer's policy in advance and comply.

For a buyer to deceive the retailer by returning a tool that they have physically used, contrary to the conditions of the sale, and thereby depreciated, is unethical. Period. It is theft. Go straight to hell, do not collect $200.

Stan

[Dave Zellers]

Great question. Those that have no problem ordering two tools just to try them both and then sending the one they don't like back, have a very different view of life than we do. They view a company as an entity, while we view a company as a group of people.

Nothing we can do or say wll change that.

[John Crawford]

I think you are crossing the line if you use the plane. (I understand that this is just an example and you are not planning on doing this.)

If you order the tool, it arrives, and without using it you think, "I shouldn't have bought this..." "It is ugly..." "It is too heavy..." "I would now rather have a belt sander..." then I think it is fine to return it. A liberal return policy benefits a company that sells good products, because you trust them, and will order more in the future.

A relative works at Amazon, and they have these two odd phrases to describe their two classes of returns: (1) "exists in product" and (2) "does not exist in product". "Does not exist in product" means "the problem is not with the product." I personally would not take a product that does not have a defect, and then give it a defect myself (using it), and then return it. Doing so will cause you to be reborn in a universe filled with belt sanders.

[Mike Henderson]

Use your own moral compass.

personally, I would try a tool out like that for a long while before deciding you like or do not like it. Keep it for a year. Then sell it used if you do not want it. You will sell for so close to your purchase price my guess is a guy like you will regard the net rent you paid as a bargain price for a year long evaluation.

+1 That's what I've done. It takes me a while to decide I really don't want a tool. But it may be perfect for someone else and I can sell it for close to what I paid for it. And the buyer gets it for a bit of a discount.

Mike

[steven c newman]

Of the two planes I have bought new....the WoodRiver #4 V3 I tried for a year, then sold on that auction site as used. The other? That Kobalt#4.....within a week, it was back at Lowes, as I could not make it work. Noticed they placed it right back on the shelf, even though I told them I used it.

Rather hard to return the planes I rust hunt, now isn't it. A Type 9 No. 7c would be a little bit of a stretch to return to Stanley.

[Frederick Skelly]

Great discussion and I'm right there with you guys - if you use it, you bought it. Fair and square.

Prashun - you're right, I'd view the slight loss as cheap tuition and it wouldn't bother me a bit to pay it. :)

Lowell - "working wood" Sir! ;)

[Tony Wilkins]

Great discussion and I'm right there with you guys - if you use it, you bought it. Fair and square.

Prashun - you're right, I'd view the slight loss as cheap tuition and it wouldn't bother me a bit to pay it. :)

Lowell - "working wood" Sir! ;)

For the most part I agree that if you use it you bought it. I have returned one tool after I used it (only tool I've returned period). It was a LN #5 and I had an issue with the handle - for whatever reason it was just painful me to use. LN suggested returning it and I did. I was a very new woodworker at the time. Now I might have kept it and tried some solutions and sold it o if I couldn't get it comfortable. LN had zero issue taking it back.

[Jim Koepke]

It is not in my tool buying 'moral compass' to order a tool with an intent possibly of returning it. If it is defective or a major disappointment only then would a return be considered. Some of my disappointments, from companies with rock solid return policies, still reside in my shop. That's just how I roll.

If I wanted to evaluate a tool, then I might speak to someone at the company to see how they feel about doing this.

As to your original hypothetical case:


I'm still thinking about buying an LV shooting plane. Everyone has told me I'll notice the difference over the LA Jack and #6 I currently use.

Do you notice enough difference between your LA Jack and the #6 to want something that might be a bit less effort than the LA Jack?

In my case a dedicated shooting plane would be a nice addition. On the other hand I am not using a shooting plane enough to justify the cost. Maybe if more things were being done that required an extra degree of accuracy via a shooting board, my justification for spending would approved by she who must approve such things.

jtk

[Hasin Haroon]

Very interesting thread Frederick. I only return woodworking tools if they are defective. Most of my new tools at this point are pretty high quality, and I have found myself not using a couple of planes etc. but I wouldn't return them if they had nothing wrong with them.

Another interesting aspect of tool buying ethics is why we choose the brands we do. Of course, there is the quality aspect to it, but there are certainly other things that I take into account. Most of my tools are from Veritas. I buy them because:
- High quality
- Manufactured in Canada (as a Canuck I feel like I should do my part to support this, just as I'm sure a lot of you in the south feel about LN)
- Great customer service
- Other aspects of LV/Veritas, like their commitment to environmentally friendly products, commitment to good wages and working environment for their workers.

[Edwin Santos]

If you ordered the tool in good faith and then you decide to timely return it for any reason that is within the vendor's return policy, I fail to see how you're taking advantage of them.

I believe Lee Valley recognizes that many tools are a personal fit and difficult to evaluate from an image. Like a smart company, they don't want this to dissuade you from making a purchase so they've established their policy to allow you to buy with confidence.

I once ordered a set of the PM-V11 bench chisels and sent them back just because I just didn't like the way they felt in my hands. There was nothing defective about them. I didn't order them with the intention of returning them. They gladly took them back. Now I buy almost everything for the shop from Lee Valley in part due to that experience. Smart business on their part, loyal customer on my part, everyone wins.

If someone intentionally takes advantage of LV under their return policy, don't cry for them. Their eyes are wide open, they're an experienced company and they're taking a calculated risk.

[Edwin Santos]

[An extreme example (IMO) is buying a tool just to try it out. For example, we had a new member here a couple years ago that bought 2 "similar" LV and LN planes, fully intending to keep only the one he liked best. He saw nothing wrong with that. To each his own, I guess.]

When the LV PM-V11 chisels did not work out for me, I went in for Ashley Iles chisels. There was no local place to hold them, and I could not decide between two different styles (MK II bench chisel vs American Pattern butt chisel). So I called the out of state vendor and asked what they thought about me ordering a set of each with the intention of keeping my preferred style and returning the other set. They enthusiastically encouraged me to do exactly that. So in your example, I wonder what LV and LN would say to a call from the customer who wanted to try each vendor's plane and return one. I would bet both companies would play ball, within their respective return policies of course. The loser, if a thoughtful company, might want to know what it was that made the customer choose the other plane, and add it to their knowledge base.

By the way, the ending to the Ashley Iles story is that I received both sets and promptly fell so hard in love with both styles that I could not and would not part with either set. So the vendor, for their cooperative attitude, ended up selling two sets of chisels instead of one, no returns after all.

Ed

[Kees Heiden]

When I buy shoes online I order 10 pairs or so, different models, different sizes. Try them at home, in the house, run up the stairs a few times, etc. If one pair feels good, I will return the rest.

Is this using the shoes? And therefore unethical? How would I decide on the fit without trying them on my feet? How is it different frim buying in the shop?

Compare this to the plane. Hone the edge carefully and run it on your shootingboard a few times to get a feel for the plane. In the LV shop you would be allowed to try the plane too when you ask nicely.

Where exactly is the moral limit? In my view, if you don't damage the plane, you are still fine and won't go to bandsander hell.

[Christopher Charles]

Ed's story highlights that the ethics depend in part on the expectation of the seller. Many on-line/mail order retailers presume a higher rate of return as part of service since items can't be handled in-store. If you're thinking about it, ask the vendor before purchasing. If you don't, and return used when not part of the terms, I agree with Stan.

[Don Slaughter]

I think it is perfectly ethical and practical for anyone to return a purchased item for any reason that person has.....considering that the seller does not provide for local distribution site. The seller does not have the overhead of property to house the sale and is using the postal service as his medium. It is, IMHO, ethical to recognize and abide a time frame for sale to be complete. Any return subsequent to that time frame could be fairly subjected to agreed upon terms.

[Stanley Covington]

When I buy shoes online I order 10 pairs or so, different models, different sizes. Try them at home, in the house, run up the stairs a few times, etc. If one pair feels good, I will return the rest. Is this using the shoes? And therefore unethical? How would I decide on the fit without trying them on my feet? How is it different frim buying in the shop?Compare this to the plane. Hone the edge carefully and run it on your shootingboard a few times to get a feel for the plane. In the LV shop you would be allowed to try the plane too when you ask nicely. Where exactly is the moral limit? In my view, if you don't damage the plane, you are still fine and won't go to bandsander hell.Kees:No $200 for you, my friend! An eternity in a pit of swirling, grinding, overheated beltsandsers surely awaits you! ;)

[John K Jordan]

...For a buyer to deceive the retailer by returning a tool that they have physically used, contrary to the conditions of the sale, and thereby depreciated, is unethical....

I'm reminded of the people who use Home Depot as their free tool rental place.

I found this advice on a well-known photography forum about lights for a special photo shoot: buy the fixtures and bulbs from HD, use them for the job, then return them. The guy said he did that all the time. I was stunned. I could not believe there are people who see nothing wrong with this.

I once bought a garden sprayer which had deck stain residue inside. HD said that happens all the time, people buy something, use it for their job, then return it. HD will accept a return with no questions. He said they also have a real problem with people stealing things like work gloves then returning them for cash.

JKJ

[Jason Roehl]

Well, at least we know if they're stealing work gloves, they're being returned unused...:rolleyes:

[Frederick Skelly]

When the LV PM-V11 chisels did not work out for me, I went in for Ashley Iles chisels. There was no local place to hold them, and I could not decide between two different styles (MK II bench chisel vs American Pattern butt chisel). So I called and asked the vendor what they thought about me ordering a set of each with the intention of keeping my preferred style and returning the other set. They enthusiastically encouraged me to do exactly that. So in your example, I wonder what LV and LN would say to a call from the customer who wanted to try each vendor's plane and return one. I would bet both companies would play ball, within their respective return policies of course. The loser, if a thoughtful company, might want to know what it was that made the customer choose the other plane, and add it to their knowledge base.

By the way, the ending to the Ashley Iles story is that I received both sets and promptly fell so hard in love with both styles that I could not and would not part with either set. So the vendor, for their cooperative attitude, ended up selling two sets of chisels instead of one, no returns after all.

Ed

Good example Ed! And since the vendor agreed up front, I wouldn't feel uncomfortable with sending one set back, either. :)

Not surprised you kept both - they are supposed to be really nice tools.

Fred

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm reminded of the people who use Home Depot as their free tool rental place.

I found this advice on a well-known photography forum about lights for a special photo shoot: buy the fixtures and bulbs from HD, use them for the job, then return them. The guy said he did that all the time. I was stunned. I could not believe there are people who see nothing wrong with this.

I once bought a garden sprayer which had deck stain residue inside. HD said that happens all the time, people buy something, use it for their job, then return it. HD will accept a return with no questions. He said they also have a real problem with people stealing things like work gloves then returning them for cash.

JKJ

Yeah, for me personally, that's going too far.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

When I buy shoes online I order 10 pairs or so, different models, different sizes. Try them at home, in the house, run up the stairs a few times, etc. If one pair feels good, I will return the rest.



I do not think trying them on and walking around the house with them is wrong. That is pretty much what you do if you go to the store. I start to wonder though at the "10 pairs", just because I can't imagine a retailer is really expecting to pay shipping both ways on nine pairs for every one it actually sells. If everyone did that, the retailer would be out of business (or the price of shoes would be astronomical).

As far as tools go, I think the answer (as with so many things) is just to be straightforward and honest about it. Call customer service. If they tell you to try it out and send it back if it is not what you are looking for, you are not cheating anybody. On the other hand, if they tell you they would rather you did not do that, then you have your answer.

[Kees Heiden]

Kees:No $200 for you, my friend! An eternity in a pit of swirling, grinding, overheated beltsandsers surely awaits you! ;)

Ha, lungs full of dust for ever! You gotta love it 😊

[Don Dorn]

When I buy shoes online I order 10 pairs or so, different models, different sizes. Try them at home, in the house, run up the stairs a few times, etc. If one pair feels good, I will return the rest.

Is this using the shoes? And therefore unethical? How would I decide on the fit without trying them on my feet? How is it different frim buying in the shop?

Compare this to the plane. Hone the edge carefully and run it on your shootingboard a few times to get a feel for the plane. In the LV shop you would be allowed to try the plane too when you ask nicely.

Where exactly is the moral limit? In my view, if you don't damage the plane, you are still fine and won't go to bandsander hell.

I too have some trouble finding shoes that fit well. Therefore, I buy them only in the store as opposed to online. In the store, trying them is expected and a return to the shelf costs them nothing. That said, I have a sister in law that does most everything as you said. Her justification is that she lives 60 miles from the store and buys 4 things and returns three.

The only time I cross that line is construction. I buy 5 - 10% more material than I need and return what I don't use. Since I"m pretty bad at it, I rarely need to return.

[Kees Heiden]

I do not think trying them on and walking around the house with them is wrong. That is pretty much what you do if you go to the store. I start to wonder though at the "10 pairs", just because I can't imagine a retailer is really expecting to pay shipping both ways on nine pairs for every one it actually sells. If everyone did that, the retailer would be out of business (or the price of shoes would be astronomical).

As far as tools go, I think the answer (as with so many things) is just to be straightforward and honest about it. Call customer service. If they tell you to try it out and send it back if it is not what you are looking for, you are not cheating anybody. On the other hand, if they tell you they would rather you did not do that, then you have your answer.

Zalando is a big one in shoes overhere. They are huge, but making almost no profit. One wonders why they started this business at all. Most online retailers make little to no profit because of the very high retunr rate.

And when I am not morally allowed to order 10 pair and return nine, is 4 pair allowed? And if none of these 4 fits me well, is it allowed to return all 4 and retry with another load? Or is my Karma going downhill on every shipment? It seems hard to draw a line somewhere. The whole mailorder model seems flawed to me and you can hardly blame people to make use of it. Allthough returning stuff dirty and obviously used is kind of shitty in my view too.

And I agree, simply asking first won't hurt and is the easiest solution in this case.

[roger wiegand]

Why don't you just call L-N and ask them? There are real people there who will talk to you. No need to have a moral crisis.

[Pat Barry]

If I buy a tool and then decide I don't really want it, and it hasn't been in my possession for much time, say a week maybe, then I would have no problem returning it. If, on the other hand, I bought the tool, un-boxed it, sharpened it up, used it, and it didn't work as advertised or described by the manufacturer, then I would return it and expect a full refund. If though, I opened the packaging, tried it out, and just didn't like it for some reason, then I own it - there's no way I could see myself returning it - to return it, claiming a problem or not, wouldn't be right by me.

[george wilson]

The people I HATE are the ones who will buy a skil saw or other tool at Lowes,build a house with it,get the tool banged up and scruffy looking,lose the box,then take it back for a full refund. Now,THAT'S not ethical. Lowes policy lets them get away with that sort of nonsense.

You can't experience a tool bought from a catalog. I have no problem with returning a brand new,perfectly cleaned up tool from a trial use. It is the only way sometimes , that you can see if you like working with that tool.

The only time I EVER returned a "tool" was a Sears lawn mower with a little grass catching bag. It filled the bag after about 20' of mowing. But ,I cleaned the lawn mower perfectly clean,on top and underneath very carefully,let it dry overnight, and took it in its box back the next day.

I just had no use for a mower that filled the bag almost immediately. I'd have spent all my time emptying the bag rather than mowing!

[Malcolm McLeod]

I have 6 large dormers with cedar shake siding on them. Original shakes were installed by incompetents with a pin nailer (:mad:while I was travelling:mad:), so of course are starting to fail. Last year, the largest dormer required a full re-do because the installer also never heard of a "starter course". Que sera.

So, I got in full, righteous DIY-mode and bought a (coil) roofing nailer from Lowe's - fully intending to keep it due to the scope of the job and future repairs. Also bought 1 box of nails (600-count, I think). Full disclosure, I bought the cheapest coil nailer they sell - - only doing 6 dormers, not going to be a pro roofer - - (silly me!!). I struggled thru shooting the entire box of nails. I tried every adjustment, tech support call, and holding-my-mouth-right-trick I could find, but the nailer would NOT feed properly. I finished the box by unlatching, opening the slide cover, positioning the nails, close and latch the cover, shoot a nail, unlatching...... (insert sound of screaming). Perhaps 1 in 8-10 shots would feed, but I had to open and check anyway. I returned the nailer and attempted to describe the problem to the service desk. They weren't interested and refunded the entire tool purchase. Finished the dormer with a hammer and bulk nails.

?Ethics?:
I knew in the first 50 nails there was something wrong, but was hanging on a ladder 30ft up so just cursed and kept at it, trying adjustment on top of adjustment. Should I have returned it immediately? Or, does 600 nails count as 'using'? (I felt guilty about it - hence my questions.)

Should I have known not to expect the cheapest tool to work any better, and just kept it? Or, do I go back and trade up to the more expensive, functional models? (Since 'Good, Better, BEST' is the big box store's marketing strategy.) BTW, 'Good' means it lasts until you open the package.

Edit: I got curious and checked online - the retailer in question no longer offers the make/model I had issues with.

[John C Cox]

I think we have to remember that Lee Valley has the liberal return policy they do have because we are buying expensive tools sight unseen in pattens that are not common to available designs.

For example - with LN.. You can get an idea of the feel from old Stanley planes. Those Stanleys are fairly common in circulation... And the LN is a turbo charged blueprinted and improved Stanley... Low risk... But they arent for everybody.

The LV planes are different. Their designs are different. I think part of the reason they allow an easy return is that the "Different" is not for everybody. And so rather than sticking someone with an expensive tool they dont like - and having that person take out their aggravations on a public forum - they allow an easy return policy.

And so - efforts made to maintain a great reputation means they have to be easy to work with if the unit isnt for you. Online musical instrument retailers often have a very liberal return policy - simply because the tactile feel and sound of an instrument is very important... You often need to play them to decide whether you like them or not.

Now... I would guess that the few units that do come back because of the operator - not the tool - are carefully inspected and then returned back to their stock for resale.

[glenn bradley]

Use your own moral compass.

personally, I would try a tool out like that for a long while before deciding you like or do not like it. Keep it for a year. Then sell it used if you do not want it. You will sell for so close to your purchase price my guess is a guy like you will regard the net rent you paid as a bargain price for a year long evaluation.

+1

When I read Prashun's responses to something he has gotten to before me, I often think we must be twin sons of different mothers. I could save a lot of typing by just following Prashun around the forum posting "Yeah, what he said".

[george wilson]

Malcom: I bought a Harbor Freight pin nailer about 15 years ago,when I had to replace the missing quarter round moldings all over this house. They removed it years ago when they installed carpeting. It works perfectly,and still does to this day. Surprising!

[steven c newman]

Well known about Craftsman hand tools.....replace any time for life ( or was) BUT, what happens when the tool replacement you get back is worse than the tool you returned?

1/2" drive ratchet....needed a new gear in the head, old one was metal, "new" one was ....nylon/plastic......Hmmmmm.

[Tony Wilkins]

Well known about Craftsman hand tools.....replace any time for life ( or was) BUT, what happens when the tool replacement you get back is worse than the tool you returned?

1/2" drive ratchet....needed a new gear in the head, old one was metal, "new" one was ....nylon/plastic......Hmmmmm.
and made in China, not the good old US of A. Guard those old Craftsman.

[steven c newman]

Most of mine have a VK stamped on them with the Model number...

[Jim Koepke]

I'm reminded of the people who use Home Depot as their free tool rental place.

These folks will surely spend eternity between belt sanders in a very warm place.

jtk

[John K Jordan]

When I buy shoes online I order 10 pairs or so, different models, different sizes. Try them at home, in the house, run up the stairs a few times, etc. If one pair feels good, I will return the rest.


If there is any doubt, perhaps call the company and ask how they would prefer to handle things.

My wife has a lot of trouble getting shoes to fit. She's been a customer of the online FootSmart store for many years. When she called they told her, yes, please order, try, and return those that don't fit. They suggested she order multiple pairs at once to improve the chances at a good fit. I think she pays shipping fees but there has never been an issue with returns. Lots of returns. Dozens of returns. They've gotten thousands of dollars of business from the shoes she's kept.

JKJ

[Frederick Skelly]

Why don't you just call L-N and ask them? There are real people there who will talk to you. No need to have a moral crisis.

Never was a moral crisis my friend. I knew where I was on it. Just seemed like it would be an interesting discussion topic, which is why I wrote the original post the way I did. And I learned a few things too - can't beat that!

Best regards,
Fred

[Stanley Covington]

Never was a moral crisis my friend. I knew where I was on it. Just seemed like it would be an interesting discussion topic, which is why I wrote the original post the way I did. And I learned a few things too - can't beat that!

Best regards,
Fred

Fred:

It was a good, educational post of eternal importance. Now I know I need fear not only fire & brimstone (yuck, stinky) demons (mean and butt-ugly), needle-mountains (pokey, ouch!), and lakes of boiling blood in the afterlife, but power tools as well! I pledge to forsake whiskey, beer, and tacos, and repent of my evil ways!

[Frederick Skelly]

fred:

It was a good, educational post of eternal importance. Now i know i need fear not only fire & brimstone (yuck, stinky) demons (mean and butt-ugly), needle-mountains (pokey, ouch!), and lakes of boiling blood in the afterlife, but power tools as well! I pledge to forsake whiskey, beer, and tacos, and repent of my evil ways!

Eternal belt sander noise and dust. Oh poor Kees. And he seemed like such a nice man! :D
Gonna be tough to give up tacos......

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

According to return policy he is innocent. According to religion he is more innocent than the seller that is making profit on him. On the other hand, he kind of indirectly took advantage of other buyers, since they supposedly had to pay higher price, is that what we joke about here? And finally, who we are to judge, right? :)

I think shooting plane is sooo good that you would not be even tempted by return policy! (but some other sins may, though).

[Finally, there is no common morality in the world of money we are living in. This is an example of contradiction between two morals.]

[bridger berdel]

In any transaction there are ethical responsibilities for both buyer and seller. If the rules are well understood, both parties agree to them and there is no coercion all's well.

[Jerry Olexa]

If it doesn't feel right to you (about returning), then it probably isn't!!

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

In any transaction there are ethical responsibilities for both buyer and seller. If the rules are well understood, both parties agree to them and there is no coercion all's well.

True, return policy is all we need to be concerned with, but then again, why this question was raised at all?

I merely want to point out two things. That between people it is not moral to make profit on your friends. But it is moral for employer to make profit on employees. We are told that employer earns that by organizing everything. In this view the question sounds like that - is it moral to take an action that would reduce profit of employer, or seller in this case. We feel like we might be "stealing" someone's profit (or reward). Or do we let seller "steal" less from us?

Because we are not sure sometimes which one applies, that brings this question. What should we do in case of friendly seller? :)

One resolution is to say - I want to donate that reward regardless and will not return in any case.
Second one - I know I will have to pay more than it costs to make it (+ other costs), but at least I can return it if I wouldn't like it. Like you are paying insurance in the price already.

The more time one has to spend to earn that amount of money the more one would stick to the second option.

[Tony Zaffuto]

My view is simple: if you enjoy this hobby or profession, and you expect to be able to purchase tools in the future, then you should expect them e supplier or manufacturer to make a profit, so as to remain n business. Knowingly taking advantage of a company's generous policy does help them. I'm like Patel on the first page, if I don't like something, I'll sell it.

[James Waldron]

As I see it:

1. A manufacturer has to truly believe in the quality of his product to offer liberal return policies such as those under discussion here.

2. Whatever the return policy of a company, returns are an integral part of doing business and a business expense to be planned for and budgeted.

3. It is entirely rational and morally proper for a purchaser of a product to choose a vendor based, in part, on the return policy of the vendor since the liberal return policy is a highly visible indicator of belief in the quality of the product and commitment to customer service by that vendor.

4. It is equally rational and morally proper for a purchaser of a product to choose a vendor exclusively on a low price, despite a restrictive return policy limited to issues required by law in the jurisdiction, knowing that the restrictions are likely to be associated with a lesser quality level.

5. Far too many of us have learned the hard way that a high price alone is not a reliable indicator of quality; it may be an indicator of some other attribute. As my Pop used to be fond of saying, "It ain't always true that you get what you pay for, but it's damned sure true that you don't get what you don't pay for."

6. Any manufacturer with a liberal return policy knows up front (or very soon has empirical evidence to inform him) that there is a spectrum of customers, at one end those who push the return policy to the extreme and at the other end, those who would never use the return policy at all unless they get a product that is truly defective. See point 2, above. The behavioral spectrum of customers is quite broad.

7. The permissible scope of a return policy defines a community-wide ethical construct. A return within the scope of the policy is, by definition, ethical. A return outside the scope of the policy is, equally by definition, unethical.

8. Where within the spectrum of behaviors one chooses to place oneself is a personal, moral choice. No one else can dictate your morals for you.

[Graham Haydon]

For me, buy it, try it. You'll know within about 10 mins if you think it's better. If it's not better, clean it up and return it in the same condition you bought it.

[andy bessette]

For me, buy it, try it. You'll know within about 10 mins if you think it's better. If it's not better, clean it up and return it in the same condition you bought it.

Once you have used a brand new, unused tool you cannot return it in brand new, unused condition. And the supplier can no longer sell it as a brand new, unused tool. So you have devalued the item.

No. Unless the seller offers a free trial, it would be unethical to use and return it, unless there is a hidden defect that could not be seen without using it.

[James Waldron]

Once you have used a brand new, unused tool you cannot return it in brand new, unused condition. And the supplier can no longer sell it as a brand new, unused tool. So you have devalued the item.

No. Unless the seller offers a free trial, it would be unethical to use and return it, unless there is a hidden defect that could not be seen without using it.

In the case under discussion, of Lee Valley, they do offer a "free trial" by defining an open return policy for 3 months. (Lie Nielsen has a comparably open policy, one that is actually a bit broader, but the "return for any reason" bit is more limited in time.) Thus, in that case, such trial use and return is ethical by definition but still subject to one's personal moral choice as to whether to take advantage of the policy after use or not. That leads to some interesting points:

1. Lee Valley benefits from many of the moral decisions related here to limit returns to defective tools; that makes the burden of returns lighter for Mr. Lee, particularly since they ship VERY few defective tools, particularly those of their own (Veritas) manufacture. On those rare occasions when a defect slips through the Veritas QA practices, they most definitely want the product returned. They don't want it out "in the wild" to damage their reputation.

2. In fact, Lee Valley offers customer service that goes far beyond the return policy guarantee, which is limited to three months. (Lie Nielsen return policy is limited to 30 days. Repair service goes far beyond the return policy for these tools as well.) Since Veritas started manufacture in 1982, I think it was, customer service for repair and/or replacement for defects of their products has been substantially perpetual. It's just a phone call/e-mail away, no matter how old the tool. I don't know how they deal with issues involving third party products they market, but I suspect they do as well as anyone. Good customer service is very good marketing. (Lie Nielsen makes an explicit guarantee for materials and workmanship for the life of the tool.)

And of course, discussions like the present one are "word of mouth" marketing, the very strongest form of marketing for any company.

Between them, the standards of customer service set by Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen set a high bar for all vendors in the woodworking tool business and serve as a model that benefits all woodworkers where ever they purchase tools. Those who fall much below the standards set by these top tier manufacturers face difficult marketing and price pressure and limited sales and profits.

As always, "you pays yer money and you takes your chances."

[Graham Haydon]

Look at it this way Andy. Case in point was to buy something better at shooting than the standard bench plane. I would assume LV would say the plane proposed would be "better" for the purpose described. If when using the new plane there is no noticeable "better", then why not return it and spend the money on wood? A firm like LV have always seemed exceptional and if for any reason the purchase was not right for your needs then I would expect to send it back. I would assume that would be the benefit of dealing with a firm like LV? It's the kind of service that would bring me back next time for tools. Maybe even call them before making the purchase and put forward what you propose to do? If they don't think it fair then don't proceed and nobody looses out.

James, you make a great point. I would say it's not taking advantage to use the terms they set out. Fact is most people keep the tools because they suit their needs well. The amount of returns must be tiny, so much so that any concern about ethics is pretty void.

[James Waldron]

[snip]

James, you make a great point. I would say it's not taking advantage to use the terms they set out. Fact is most people keep the tools because they suit their needs well. The amount of returns must be tiny, so much so that any concern about ethics is pretty void.

Careful, there. Thanks for the kind words about my posts here, but in my "not so humble" opinion, the thought that "... any concern about ethics is pretty void" is a very difficult position; far too many of today's problems stem from dismissing concerns about ethics. If the importance of ethics is diminished, we are left with a rather chaotic society. Far too much of that sort of thing going around these days.

I think I get the point you meant, but you might consider expressing it another way. Not every one gets the distinction between ethics and morality, but I'd suggest that quite a number of our colleagues here have considered the issues of this topic a matter of considerable concern over ethics and/or morality and far from void. Your expression seems rather dismissive of their concerns, which I'm sure isn't what you intended.

[Joe Beaulieu]

I think it depends on how good a customer you are. If you are a regular customer and have a working relationship with LV then I think an occasional return after trying a tool is not a problem. I wouldn't make it a habit, nor would I do it with anything that couldn't be reworked into a "B Stock" item or something. I have done similar things with them - I have several planes, other large and small hand tools, etc and I have returned a couple of things that I just didn't care for. But I think out of 50 transactions or more I have done it twice maybe.

Its one of the advantages of working directly with a catalog company instead of finding a quick and dirty deal on EBay or someplace else. LV and a number of other very good reputable companies deserve a loyal customer base and an investment in keeping them the up front company they are. If we are all just price chasers we will lose the great 'value-add' that LV, LN, CraftsmanStudio, etc bring to the transaction. I wish LV was based in the US, but I am not going to stop buying from them for that minor reason, especially as they go out of their way to be good to their American cousins. Plus - where else can you buy perfect miniature replicas of your planes and chisels etc? I thrilled my wife with a couple of their miniature tools. They are amazing and a nice fun thing to give a fellow WW or friend.

HTH

JB

[Sean Hughto]

It's really not that hard. If you were in business, what would you want customers to do to you? 🙄

[Tom Stenzel]

... Now I know I need fear not only fire & brimstone (yuck, stinky) demons (mean and butt-ugly), needle-mountains (pokey, ouch!), and lakes of boiling blood in the afterlife, but power tools as well! I pledge to forsake whiskey, beer, and tacos, and repent of my evil ways!

Stan, I can understand forsaking your evil ways, but why forsake whiskey, beer and tacos?

:)

My own moral compass would only let me send back a tool that otherwise is what it oughta be would be if I felt there had been some kind of misrepresentation of what it could do.

I wouldn't mind a bevel up smoother but should LV or LN take a hit because I can't figure out how to use it? I mean by not risking humiliation and asking here how to use it.

-Tom

[Jim Koepke]

I would say it's not taking advantage to use the terms they set out.

Years ago Costco allowed up to a year to return electronic items, TV, DVD players and such. Some folks felt it wasn't taking advantage to purchase a new big screen TV just before Super Bowl and then return it just before the next Super Bowl and then purchase another big screen TV to be returned in a year.

Costco stood behind the products they sold and because some did overly "take advantage" of the terms they set out, Costco changed the terms. All the people who respected Costco and didn't have problems with their purchase have now been given less warranty coverage due to the greed of the few.

Using the terms as set out to remedy a problem is not abuse. Using the terms set out to obtain use without cost is abuse.

In the case of wanting to "give something a try" and return it if it isn't to one's liking is something one should work out with a customer service representative before any action is taken.

It would be great if there were more tools shows where potential customers could use these tools in person before purchasing.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

Stan, I can understand forsaking your evil ways, but why forsake whiskey, beer and tacos?

:)

My own moral compass would only let me send back a tool that otherwise is what it oughta be would be if I felt there had been some kind of misrepresentation of what it could do.

I wouldn't mind a bevel up smoother but should LV or LN take a hit because I can't figure out how to use it? I mean by not risking humiliation and asking here how to use it.

-Tom

Others have commented, in response to Ken Hatch's stated love of whiskey, beer, and tacos, that attempting to limit their consumption is akin to blasphemy. I do not want to blaspheme, but the thought of belt sanders throughout eternity scares the bejesus out of me, and I will sacrifice anything to avoid them!

Stan

[Graham Haydon]

Thanks James. These threads are fun :). TBH I'm getting pretty lost with the semantics of this.

GH "Hello, LV. I'm thinking of buying a new plane for shooting, I'm hoping it will be an improvement over my standard bench plane. However as I have no experience of the new plane I'm worried it wont live up to my expectations. Would it be acceptable to return it after use if I don't find an improvement"

LV (assumed response) "Sure, our business model supports this. Based on what your're doing we'd recommend plane X with plane iron Y. We'll sure it'll work great. However if you don't see an improvement over your current set up after using it for an hour or so please send it back"

GH "Cool, sounds great, also could I also order item A, B and C too.

LV assumed response "Sure"

What would not be acceptable? Using it for days, damaging it, neglecting it, not preserving original packaging.

I'm not sure if that makes me moral/immoral ethical/unethical. However it is what seems reasonable to me based on distance selling. If there was a store or woodworking club nearby with plane X in question, I could try before I buy, negating the conversation with the vendor. I'm amused by those who feel compelled never to return something based on a distance purchase.

[Kees Heiden]

Even after reading all the replies, I still think that "trying out the plane for a few minutes, then clean it up and return when you don't like it" falls firmly within the limits and the intend of the return policy. For me this is just the same as trying on a pair of mail ordered shoes to see if they fit my feet. We can't determine the fit from the catalogue, nor can we get the feel for the tool, so it's great to have this kind of return policy. This is completely different from purchasing the plane for a specific project and then returning it when the project is finished.

For those who say "Now the tool isn't new anynmore", remember that the tool was manufactured in a non sterile environment. Once it was utterly dirty and scratched and scuffed. Before packaging it was cleaned and made ready for sale. Using it for a few minutes and then clean it again, isn't taking anything away from its newness, other then the mental image of it having been on someone else's bench.

Of course when you are still unsure about the morality, a quick phonecall with the company will clear that up.

[Frederick Skelly]

GH "Hello, LV. I'm thinking of buying a new plane for shooting, I'm hoping it will be an improvement over my standard bench plane. However as I have no experience of the new plane I'm worried it wont live up to my expectations. Would it be acceptable to return it after use if I don't find an improvement"

LV (assumed response) "Sure, our business model supports this. Based on what your're doing we'd recommend plane X with plane iron Y. We'll sure it'll work great. However if you don't see an improvement over your current set up after using it for an hour or so please send it back"

GH "Cool, sounds great.

Good point Graham. If you put it out there this clearly, it seems honest and up front - as long as you truly intend to keep it if shown sufficient improvement.

[andy bessette]

What is amusing is just how far some will stretch their sense of ethics, for money.

Trying on a new pair of mail order running shoes is one thing. Taking them for an hour's workout is another; you can't "clean them up" to brand new condition again. Same with "an hour or two" on a plane.

[Edwin Santos]

What is amusing is just how far some will stretch their sense of ethics, for money.

Trying on a new pair of mail order running shoes is one thing. Taking them for an hour's workout is another; you can't "clean them up" to brand new condition again. Same with "an hour or two" on a plane.

This is an interesting discussion. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but let me ask you a theoretical question: If the vendor was completely cool with the return of the plane with the "hour or two" of use, and the buyer was comfortable returning it also, then is the ethical standard of third person (who finds this unacceptable) relevant?

[Adam Schultz]

I think I'd want my customers to not feel hesitant to buy my product. On average I bet they sell more tools this way. The cost of returns must be worth it.

[Graham Haydon]

I have no idea why any business would not want to have normal distance selling rules. Don't get me wrong, people who buy products to fulfil a task and then return it for a refund are pretty scummy. However a retailer who would not offer a no quibble return policy would not be in business for long. The whole distance selling model would pretty much fail as there would be no faith in it!

Not sure what the US rules are but the UK rules are

"Online, mail and phone order salesOnline, mail and telephone order customers have the right to cancel their order for a limited time even if the goods aren’t faulty. Sales of this kind are known as ‘distance selling (https://www.gov.uk/online-and-distance-selling-for-businesses)’.
You must offer a refund to customers if they’ve told you within 14 days of receiving their goods that they want to cancel. They have another 14 days to return the goods once they’ve told you.
You must refund the customer within 14 days of receiving the goods back. They don’t have to provide a reason.

Spot on Andy! Think of the advantages of distance sales to a retailer, less bricks an mortar, less staff, less inventory and plenty more besides. Having a few returns here or there is would be much easier to manage. If people make purchases and choose to keep an item, be it well suited to them or not, based on expectations through sales literature and reviews then good luck to them. If they feel that's ethical then I am very much amused. If I make a purchase and it does not live up to my expectations I want to return it. Thankfully the system as is stands now protects retailer and consumer and it's pretty easy to understand.

[andy bessette]

If a vendor says it's OK to demo his product for a couple hours before returning it, that settles it.

A couple hours use of a shooting plane could represent several entire projects.

[Jim Koepke]

If a vendor says it's OK to demo his product for a couple hours before returning it, that settles it.

A couple hours use of a shooting plane could represent several entire projects.

Me thinks the vendor is implying contiguous hours and not a few minutes this month followed by a few minutes each over the next few months.

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

Would any "pro return" accept one of the returned planes as new if they ordered a new plane from the vendor.

[Graham Haydon]

Yes. But let's be frank, this is a tiny, tiny segment of the purchasing process. Must be at least 90% of people that just keep and use it. If there was an issue with it after return, it would likely become a demonstrator or sold at a slightly reduced cost. This thread implies that suppliers are at risk from consumers who just use distance selling as a free hire shop. Frankly the system works, if in doubt call the supplier! I bet they'd encourage you to try it, knowing full well they'd be broadly 90% sure of making a sale!

[Gary Cunningham]

I bought the LN 4 1/2. After using it a few times I could never warm up to it. Sold it here for not much less than purchase price.

[Paul McGaha]

Personally, I don't tend to return purchases I make.

As far as the subject of new tools go, unless you're buying a tool that you've personally used before, and know exactly what to expect out of it's performance, there is a certain amount of experimenting going on with trying a new tool. And that should be on the buyer rather than the seller.

Just my $.02.

[Mike Henderson]

This is off the subject of tools, but when I'm doing a project at home - let's say plumbing - I'll buy everything I might possibly need from my local Home Depot. Then when I finish the project, I'll take back those things I didn't use. HD has no objection to that - I suppose because some people don't return the leftover stuff - and it sure beats having to stop and drive there again to get a few more parts.

Mike

[Even with that, almost every project is a two or three trip event. I just run into stuff that I didn't expect.:)]

[Jim Koepke]

This is off the subject of tools, but when I'm doing a project at home - let's say plumbing - I'll buy everything I might possibly need from my local Home Depot. Then when I finish the project, I'll take back those things I didn't use. HD has no objection to that - I suppose because some people don't return the leftover stuff - and it sure beats having to stop and drive there again to get a few more parts.

Mike

[Even with that, almost every project is a two or three trip event. I just run into stuff that I didn't expect.:)]

Home projects usually require three trips to the store. The first trip to buy everything you think you need. The second trip to buy the rest of the things you actually need. Then the third trip is to return all the stuff you didn't need.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

Home projects usually require three trips to the store. The first trip to buy everything you think you need. The second trip to buy the rest of the things you actually need. Then the third trip is to return all the stuff you didn't need.

jtk

LOL, you really hit the nail on the head, Jim!

Mike

[Tony Zaffuto]

But Mike, aren't those items in unopened packaging?

[Jim Koepke]

But Mike, aren't those items in unopened packaging?

Sometimes it is just piece of pipe or fittings with a bar code tag.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

But Mike, aren't those items in unopened packaging?

As Jim points out, a lot of things, like plastic or brass fittings, are just individual pieces with a barcode on them. Certainly if stuff comes in a package and you open the package, you bought it. If you didn't open the package, you can certainly take it back.

Mike

[Tony Zaffuto]

Sometimes it is just piece of pipe or fittings with a bar code tag.

jtk

But unused? I do the same, as for all practical purposes the item is new.

A tool that has been opened, but not used, is still new, but once it touches wood, it is used. Returning it, because you don't like the color, wrong! Returning it because the sole is twisted, OK.

[Kees Heiden]

In your opinion of course. Like Graham explained, when buying stuff over the mail, you are disadvantaged as a consumer. When it appears on your doorstep, then indeed the color could be a huge dissapointment.

That's why many European countries have very strict laws about your right as a consumer to return stuff for whatever reason.

[Bill Graham]

Great question. Those that have no problem ordering two tools just to try them both and then sending the one they don't like back, have a very different view of life than we do. They view a company as an entity, while we view a company as a group of people.

Nothing we can do or say wll change that.

I couldn't agree more. There's a cost associated with that behavior and we all pay for it.


I think you are crossing the line if you use the plane. (I understand that this is just an example and you are not planning on doing this.)

If you order the tool, it arrives, and without using it you think, "I shouldn't have bought this..." "It is ugly..." "It is too heavy..." "I would now rather have a belt sander..." then I think it is fine to return it. A liberal return policy benefits a company that sells good products, because you trust them, and will order more in the future.

A relative works at Amazon, and they have these two odd phrases to describe their two classes of returns: (1) "exists in product" and (2) "does not exist in product". "Does not exist in product" means "the problem is not with the product." I personally would not take a product that does not have a defect, and then give it a defect myself (using it), and then return it. Doing so will cause you to be reborn in a universe filled with belt sanders.

I kind of concur but the problem with that line of thought is that once you open the box the company can no longer sell the tool as new. So they figure in the cost of selling returns "as-is" at a discounted rate or throwing the returned tool in the dumpster. Again, all of us pay the price. And what's wrong with belt sanders? :confused:


Use your own moral compass.

personally, I would try a tool out like that for a long while before deciding you like or do not like it. Keep it for a year. Then sell it used if you do not want it. You will sell for so close to your purchase price my guess is a guy like you will regard the net rent you paid as a bargain price for a year long evaluation.

I like your idea, I've done it myself. If after doing my homework and evaluating my needs(and hopefully laying hands on a tool in person) I think enough of it to buy it then I bought it and own it. If it's broken or doesn't do what the manufacturer said it would then I have no problem returning it, that would be the "exists in product" classification that John mentioned.

OTOH, if the tool does what the seller says it does and is of the quality represented in whatever sales info I relied on then I own it. I don't know of any tool manufacturer that guarantees any of their products will fit your style of work, your hand, your toolbox or your expectation of color based on a guaranteed non-color-correct photo on the internet.

To the OP, I'd say you're taking advantage of the manufacturer if you return the tool based on perceived value. And my hat's off to you for thinking you'd be uncomfortable in returning it. If more people thought like you good tools would be cheaper.

Just my thoughts...

Best,
Bill

[andy bessette]

Bill--you were doing quite well except for this point.

I believe that, if the tool is unused, it can be sold as new. If the packaging gets damaged while opening it they can replace the packaging.