Yet Another Bench Build

[michael langman]

Hi Everyone,
I have been visiting Sawmill Creek for quite a few years now, and have finally begun to get somewhere, with my work bench.
I have read so many posts here about benches, and working wood, with hand tools, that I could never be able to thank everyone for their ideas and help. So I would just like to say Thank You Everyone, for making this place such a fun and interesting place to visit and learn.
I am planning to make all of the interior doors and the front entry way door in my house with this bench. Therefore it has to be wider then a work bench usually is, and fairly long. So it is going to be the size of an entry door. 36" x 80". The 2 halves of the bench is laminated SPF from the BORG, and are 11.5" wide. Adding a 11/2" wide apron to both sides will make each side of the bench approximately 13" and the tool well will be made to bring the overall width to 36".
I have no plans to go by, but have been looking at benches for so long now that they feel imprinted in my head.
It will be built like Paul Sellers benches with a few changes to suit my purposes.
The 2 leg supports will be able to be broken down for disassembly for ease of transporting and I am undecided yet about having a metal face vise. I may make a leg vise and use bench dogs for sure.
If something does not look right to anyone, or if you have any ideas to help me along the way please speak up.
So much for the rambling.

[michael langman]

Problems uploading a picture of my progress. I will keep trying.

[michael langman]

Attempt at downloading resized picture.

[Karl Andersson]

Hi Michael,
Thanks for sharing your bench build. I haven't built entry doors, just some 30x60 cabinet doors and the largest single pieces I've had to work were 12-foot barge board trim, but it seems like maybe you don't have to make the bench match the size of your doors (unless you've already finished the whole glue-up, then by all means it HAS to be that size :)).

It just seems that building and flattening such a large surface for one project might not be needed. If you think you'll need bench-like strength under all the joints, you may want to consider a split-top bench, like the split Roubos that some have posted here. Otherwise, a "normal" sized bench should suit you for forming your joints and if you want a nice flat surface to assemble and check your joints you could focus on making a torsion box assembly table instead of a bench. Two smaller tables that can be attached to each other would probably be more useful after the door project.

I just make the joints good, one at a time at my 18"x80" bench and assemble the doors on horses as I progress.

just some thoughts, good luck,
Karl

[Noah Magnuson]

Hi Michael,
Thanks for sharing your bench build. I haven't built entry doors, just some 30x60 cabinet doors and the largest single pieces I've had to work were 12-foot barge board trim, but it seems like maybe you don't have to make the bench match the size of your doors (unless you've already finished the whole glue-up, then by all means it HAS to be that size :)).

It just seems that building and flattening such a large surface for one project might not be needed. If you think you'll need bench-like strength under all the joints, you may want to consider a split-top bench, like the split Roubos that some have posted here. Otherwise, a "normal" sized bench should suit you for forming your joints and if you want a nice flat surface to assemble and check your joints you could focus on making a torsion box assembly table instead of a bench. Two smaller tables that can be attached to each other would probably be more useful after the door project.

I just make the joints good, one at a time at my 18"x80" bench and assemble the doors on horses as I progress.

just some thoughts, good luck,
Karl

This ^^. The bench is for preparing the joints and stock, not assembling the full sized doors. You will likely have trouble with working on that 36" width of bench. I have a pair of matched-height assembly tables made from my previous (too tall/wide) bench that are 30" x 24". I can move them around for various sizes of work. For your project, a few longer horses would probably be sufficient.

[David Eisenhauer]

I believe that traditional hand-tool ww benches tended to be more in the conventional width range and also used an angled leg setup for a leg vise that allowed the door to be placed on the floor on one edge with the upper end of the door pinched in the leg vise. This allowed the worker to plane the long sides of the door. I started with a very wide bench to work on and it served no useful purpose for the actual joinery work. I now use a split top bench with two 12" wide work surfaces and a 4" wide tool tray area between and enjoy that bench better than the first bench. If your bench will be free standing, the narrower width should not be an issue. If the bench will live against a wall and you will not be able to come up with an assembly area, perhaps a wider bench may be your particular answer. As to length, I have the room for a full 8' length and appreciate my 8' long bench. Do I work on 8' long furniture often? No, but the extra length fits just fine in my shop and has never hindered me at all. I usually leave a Moxon vise permanently set up on the "far" end of my bench when I don't need the full 8' length for current work. If you are going to use bench dogs, it seems that you will have to also have an end vise (of some type) to push against the dogs. A "side" vise (of some type) is probably one of the handiest and most used parts of a workbench for many of us. Not necessary, but very handy. There are some good ideas on workbench styles, uses, etc on the market from Scott Landis and Chris Schwarz that can help you define what would work best for you.

[michael langman]

Thank You for your thoughts Karl, Noah and David.
Karl, I was thinking of using my bench as an assembly table, because I really don't have the room for an assembly table, and the bench. I am worried about getting the doors flat and straight from corner to corner, so I thought having a flat bench to use as a base would be the way to go. I will have a 12" wide tool well in the middle of my bench, so only have to flatten and align 24" of bench top.
Maybe I will have to make those torsion boxes if the flattening and straightening of the bench don't go as well as planned.
Noah, I see your point about having trouble working around such a large bench. I am having trouble now working around all of the machines in my shop. Adding the bench is going to make it that much worse! If I had not laminated the two top sections already I may have reconsidered the size. It's funny because I have two long benches along the walls of my cellar that the previous owner built. But they are not precise, and are crowded with other things in the shop. I was going to tear one down, and build a nice working bench in its place but I thought a separate bench would be easier to build.
David, I am trying to picture your angled leg setup with a leg vise. I was planning to have aprons on each side of the bench for rigditity and then possibly a leg vise through the apron into the leg of the bench. And then have holes in the apron for dowels, to support the doors.
It sounds like the consensus is that a bigger bench is not as user friendly as something smaller and easier to work with. I think that you are all probably right in this point. I have 10 doors to make, and it will probably take me a few years to make them all, being I cannot spend hours at a time working in the shop. I picture myself using part of the bench top to have door parts sitting on top for periods of time. Having a flat surface to keep the wood supported seems important to me. and then having the other half of the bench to work on.
My biggest concern is will the wide bench be stable and not twist more then a narrower bench over time.
My cellar is dry in the winter, and I need to run a dehumidifier in the summer in the cellar and do. So I am hoping it will be stable enough.
Thankyou Gentlemen for your help. Michael

[michael langman]

Just a little bit of info. I am not 100% Neanderthal with my bench build. I hope this is alright to post here. I stickered and let 30 2x4's acclimate in my basement for the past 6 months. The wood dried considerably more and the top pieces of 2x4 on the pile did move more then the lower pieces. Someone mentioned weight on top of the pile helped, so next time I may do that.
I jointed the long side of the 2x4's,3 1/2" side, on my little 4" delta homecraft jointer. I added a piece of melamine,3/4" x 36" long to the outfeed side of the jointer and used a straight edge to get it aligned.
I bought 2 straight edges from Infinity Tool, as a set. One 36" long and the other 24". Igaging Chinese ones. I am not a wealthy man so I have to get by the best I can. I have a laboratory grade surface plate I only use for inspections, and the straight edges were within .002 of being flat and straight. Needless to say, I checked a Johnson48" aluminum rule to the igaging straightedges, and it is straight within .002.
I then ran the 2x4's through my DW 734 planer and finished the opposite wide surface. Then back to the jointer to straighten the third side of the 2x4's, and the planer to finish up.
Then I glued 8- 2x4"s together, twice to get my bench tops. Then I made a set of 40" winding sticks from some old spruce floor molding I had.
After that I ended up with some unevenness in the glue ups and use my #5 Stanley plane and winding sticks to surface the top surface in the picture above. I finished with a # 4 finish plane and a #6 foreplane that I got from a fellow member here on the site.
ThankYou Jerry Olexa. he #5 and #6 plane are working superbly.
I will attempt to run the opposite side of the bench tops through the DW 734 if it will do it. Everything is waxed, but the tops are quite heavy.
So That is it for now folks. Regards, Mike

[William Fretwell]

Mike, my most serious design size consideration for my bench was building doors; so I can relate. My bench only had to manufacture the pieces that then go to a flat assembly table. My bench is 7' 1" long but can clamp between the dogs 86.5", that is the benefit of the traditional tail vise. It can hold a full size door on edge to be planed to fit.
As has been mentioned the width of the bench may end up being a liability, the length should work just fine with a tail vise of some sort.
You could reduce the tool well. I've never really thought of the Sellers bench as knock down, so much as 'can be disassembled'. Making the two leg components disassemble my introduce some weakness. Given the size of the top I don't see two solid leg components being a problem.

[David Eisenhauer]

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The door can be placed with one long side resting on the floor with the opposite side then "pinched" in one upper corner of the leg to hold it firmly for planning a long edge. The angled leg vise does away with the depth limitations for holding that a pure vertical leg vise is constrained by.

[William Fretwell]

That's a classic bench, stable by design not too heavy to move, very usable.

[andy bessette]

A standard vise works just as well, in such an application as holding the edge of a door, but the leg vise has the advantage of transferring forces directly to the shop floor.

[michael langman]

William, You have brought up some good points to consider. The traditional tail vise is quite an involved undertaking. I am thinking maybe a moxon type vise on the end of the bench. Only because of the ease of making. I feel better about the stability issue with the 36"width.
David, That is a great looking bench!. Elegant in design and quite nimble looking. Yet stable with the splayed legs. Do you know how the legs are attached to the top? Or are they attached to the aprons and then the top is attached to the top edge of the aprons? It looks like their is a lever hanging down on the right end of the bench.
I had thought a regular tail vise with a heavy wide movable jaw would suffice. I'll have to acquire some hardwood for the vise jaw either way I make it to the bench.
Good point Andy. I was thinking the lower end of the leg vise was supported by the lower end of the bench leg, and the long length of the leg vise jaw acted as a lever in applying force to the parts being clamped at the top.
Thank you for the thoughts,David, William and Andy. I have somethings to consider while I finish up the tops to the bench.
Mike

[David Eisenhauer]

Look up "Moravian Bench Build" by Will Myers on You Tube and FWW for details on that angled leg, lighter workbench (with Nicholson type skirts?) for build details. I believe he provides some good build details, possibly from a WK Fine Tools link to some of his projects. The lever on the right end of the bench you see in the sketch I sent you is, I believe, an end vise handle. I have a wagon type tail vise on my bench and am glad for it when I use it. I don't need it on every project, but it serves me well when I do use it. having said that, I would say my leg vise is the single most used vise, with a face vise (as in Eclipse style) as the second most used vise. If $ for vises is an issue at first, the Benchcrafted leg vise can be retrofitted later as the $ builds back up again. The Eclipse (look it up on amazon) style face vise easily/effectively doubles as an end vise as well.

[David Eisenhauer]

Moravian Bench by Will Myers plans, video, etc located on the Wood and Shop web site.

[michael langman]

Thank You David, I'll check it out.

[William Fretwell]

The traditional tail vise is not as bad as you think, it's just a frame that moves. Break it down in stages. The placement of the screw relative to the edge of the bench needs careful thought, the rest is just logical. I made my tail vise twice as long so I could move the leg and stand more in the middle of the bench. Also I can have a Moxon vise with no hardware!
I do like the Moravian bench, there are several other benches I would like to build for fun.

[Andy Nichols]

I do build large doors, my largest door to date was a pair of doors each 6 ft wide by 10ft tall, and agree with other posts, the bench can be much smaller than the door, especially if one has a leg and tail vise.

My bench is over 10 ft long and 35" wide, it's a split top 22" wide on the tail vise/leg vise side and 11" on the other with a 2" divider/tool holder. Now the kicker, wish it was 4" wider on the 11" side....

However I use all sides of my bench and both ends, and it has a traditional LN tail vise. My desire to have the extra 4" is based on using the bench for over a year now, and I'm about to install a LN or Hovarter twin screw 24" face vise on what I call the back side (11" side).

Have also installed a Sheldon quick set vise on the side opposite the tail vise (11" side) and each end has some type of adjustable planing stop. With the LN tail vise I can clamp an almost 11 ft section on the bench and can also clamp a 10 ft between the tail vise and leg vise.

Use each vise as a station for specific types of planing and or joinery and at times have 2 people working on opposite sides of the bench, but that is mainly just during the holidays.


Of course everyone's right, if my bench was against the wall it would be too wide...


Good woodworking,
Andy

[michael langman]

William, After reading your posts, I spent yesterday researching leg vises. There were some good posts here on the Creek about them also. They look like a very useful, versatile vise to have. I find 300.00 for a hardware kit for them a little steep for my pockets, but think I may be able to put one together for half of that much money.
I do like the idea of the metal slides to prevent sagging in the long term, and am thinking of using flat stock steel bolted together with flat head screws for a sliding mechanism.
The part of the L which projects off the end of the bench looks like a weak point, if it does not have some kind of sliding support underneath of it to keep it from sagging. Some say it is more of a counterweight, then say a moxon vise in it's purpose, but this doesn't make much sense to me.
The traditional vise made entirely of all wood is quite a project. More so then the bench itself it seems. I would have to come up with some good hard maple or beech for that. Or maybe just line the jaws with some hard wood that could be replaceable.
I will have to go more in the style of a roubo bench with a small tool well and skip the side aprons if I use the leg and tail vises too, I suppose. Thankyou for your insight.
Andy, Those are some big doors you have made there. And I was agonizing over moving the doors I will be installing, if I use all hard wood.
The two sides of my bench were going to be about 12.5 inches wide with a 12 inch wide tool well and 1 1/2" thick aprons. If I install a tail vise then the front side will end up being 15-16 inches wide. I will make the tool well smaller and still keep the 11 inch wideness on the other half of the bench. It is already laminated together.
I hate to be making such big modifications in the middle of a build, but would like to get it right the first time. Much to think about. Thank You Andy and William.

[William Fretwell]

Michael, just to clarify the term 'leg vise', typically on a Roubo bench. The hardware is typically somewhat pricey. The Scandinavian shoulder vise uses inexpensive hardware ($40).

I think the rest of your deliberation refers to the tail vise. The part of the L projecting off the bench is not a weak point as it's not really stressed at all. That part is not used as a vise. It does have a sliding support, the counter weight effect does help reduce friction on the sliding support a little but really minimal. It can droop a little, especially with a steel screw at full extension. Firstly when the vise is tightened the droop vanishes, secondly it is rarely used at full extension.


This is one case where the least expensive hardware gives you more flexibility. You can make the tail vise any size you want, in my case 30 inches. The idea that the traditional tail vise is somehow inferior is correct, it is inferior in price! In all other regards it is superb, especially in satisfaction. It is not more work than the bench. I have measured mine at full 13"extension and it droops 1/8" to the very end of the vise, that's well beyond the last dog hole. When tightened there is zero droop. You do need to use hardwood for the entire tail vise; for lots of reasons.

[michael langman]

My apologies William. I meant to say Tail Vise in my first sentence, not leg vise. I was pricing the Lee Nielson tail vise kit at about 300.00 . It sure looks like a well made vise kit.
Some how I think I will be adding a tail vise as I have read of much praise for it's usefulness. Just have to research the metal slide mechanism versus all wood alternatives. Thankyou.

[Robert Engel]

michael,

Have you thought about a wagon vise? It would save quite a bit of money and work just as well. A wagon vise and row of dog holes along front and back of bench might be handy in your door making. Even though you're top is already made, I don't think its too late.

[michael langman]

Hi Robert, Yes I have considered a wagon vise., but I made my bench tops 80" long, and my doors are almost 80" long. So I was looking to add some length to my clamping abilities. The tail vise will extend from the end of the table. But Thankyou for the idea anyway.

[Andy Nichols]

Just a note: Have the new version of the LN tail vise on my bench, don't think it will ever sag.....plus there is more functionality with a tail vise, I've now had both and will never do a wagon vise again, at least not on my personal bench, and I'm not knocking wagon vises, just promoting the LN tail vise.

Regards,
Andy

[andy bessette]

I would never trade a full width vise for a wagon vise.

[michael langman]

I really like the LN tail; vis too Andy. I spent yesterday trying to incorporate one into my bench top. Never the less I only have a 3" thick top, and that vise isn't going to work for me.
I have seen a video on "The New Fangled Workbench", using Gosh forbid Pipe clamps the full length of the bench installed in the center tool well. And also pipe clamps to support a planning beam along the front.
I really like these ideas, and plan on going that route, as it makes for a very capable bench for a variety of tasks.

[William Fretwell]

The traditional tail vise works very well with thinner tops.