Table saw blade on shaper

[Brandon Larkin]

Greetings all,

I'm an experienced woodworker and try to maintain safety.
I also like to get the opinions of other to make sure I'm not missing something. Hence my question.

I can get a Forrest Saw Blade with 1 1/4" arbor (the same arbor on my 5 hp shaper).
Why I want to use it is, I occasionally need to flush trim a face where a curved side meets a flat side. I do this a lot with my shaper (far faster and easier than a router). But some curves push the edge I need trimmed out close to 4". That's beyong all of my current shaper tooling. NapGladu has a 250mm groover - for well over $500.
A 10" saw blade is under $175 and would fit the bill nicely.
My shaper has the clearance and power to run it.
Forrest blades usually are great about minimal deflection.
I'd take all necessary safety precautions.
I know they weren't "designed" for shapers... but is there anything I am missing?

Thanks in advance,

Brandon

[scott spencer]

You'll have to be very aware of the RPM and resulting tip speed. Most saws spin in the 3500-4000 rpm range.

[Brandon Larkin]

Great point!

Should be good there as my Shaper can do 3k or 4k.

Thanks!

[Kevin Jenness]

I've used paired blades for tenon cheeks and stack dado sets for grooving in the past. As Scott said, just observe the rpm guidelines, and rig up a guard if you don't have a large enough dust hood.

[Bill Dufour]

Why do you need such a large diameter? You could use a trimsaw blade or a biscuit joiner blade and have the hole enlarged for a lot less money. Even a skilsaw blade.
Too high a speed may throw a tooth in your face or gut.
Bill D.

[Warren Lake]

no effence Ed but you need to get out more . Id have to go into the shop to look but lets say 2,900, 4,400, 6,000, 8,000 and 10,000 but ill check later one of them is a bit more than 2,900 on the lowest. Ive run dadoe blades before and saw blades, no issues but they were not a fresh sharp set and felt some resistance. there are better cutters like the tennon cutters and slotting things the fancy guys on here have, ill be joining them at some point and being fancy im sure they work a fair bit better smoother less resistance and cleaner. plus depending on size and what you are doing a saw blade could have some flex

[Wayne Lomman]

It's OK if, as other guys have said, you observe rpm limitations. Limit your blade size to the maximum allowable on your shaper as well. Any saw sharpening service will machine a bore to suit your shaper. Also choose tooth geometry to suit the application and stick to a low tooth count. Cheers

[Van Huskey]

Just about every shaper I have ever seen has a RPM way too fast for a saw blade... The rpm on mine is 9000 on slow speed and 11000 on high speed...
Would NEVER consider putting a 10" saw blade on a shaper...
Definitely verify that your shaper can run that slow...


Lightweight shapers are probably out for a number of reasons but larger shapers have much lower speed options than baby shapers, it is not unusual to see shaper speeds down around 3,000 rpm in fact most large modern ones do go that low so they can swing 9" or so cutters. That is a key here bigger shapers are designed to run very large very heavy cutters and a 10" TS blade would be like a feather to them. Big spindle, with good runout (10" tooling will REALLY magnify runout) as well as very little runout in the tooling itself. As long as the shaper has proper heft and low runout the machine/tooling won't be an issue. The biggest PITA will be guarding it and that is what is going to take the care and thought.

[Martin Wasner]

I run a 1-3/8" dado stack in a Rockwell shaper for notching drawers. I did slow it way down by replacing one of the pulleys.

[John Lankers]

Build a guard that covers the blade at all times and a contraption that keeps the workpiece from getting sucked into the shaper hood opening if something would go wrong - heaven forbid, adjust the rpm down to be within the specs of the blade and be aware (do not compromise safety).
I regularly mount my 8" stacked dado set on the shaper, however I clamp the workpieces to the sliding table - what a treat to cut tenons this way or chamfers or angled grooves with the blade tilted.

[Larry Copas]

Never had the need to run a 10" blade but smaller blades were no challenge. I wouldn't hesitate to try it...carefully.

Ed, the bottom spindle is out of a Delta Heavy Duty shaper which has two speeds of 9,000 and 11,000 rpm. The top two spindles are out of a real shaper with speeds from 2,900 to 10,000 rpm. Notice any difference?

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[Frank Drew]

I'm sure everyone here knows this, but not every saw shop does (DAMHIK), but make sure the saw plate is correctly re-tensioned after the new arbor hole is bored.

[Rod Sheridan]

I run saw blades and dado cutters in mine, they work just fine, just remember to use the correct RPM...........Rod.

[scott spencer]

Coming soon to a store near you......the "Shaper Stop" hot dog cutter! :D

[John Lankers]

I'm sure everyone here knows this, but not every saw shop does (DAMHIK), but make sure the saw plate is correctly re-tensioned after the new arbor hole is bored.

Good point, this actually came up during a phone call this morning with my sharpening service.

[Rod Sheridan]

Coming soon to a store near you......the "Shaper Stop" hot dog cutter! :D

HaHa,

Mine does have electronic braking, just not that fast:D

[Joe Calhoon]

Saw blades are useful on heavy duty shapers. We have a pair of 8" blades for odd tenons and gasket grooves, a 10" for deeper cuts and one time used a 14" blade with a shop built fence to reach in deep to a custom window jamb groove. We use 4500 and 3000 RPM for these.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I've also used several saw blades over the years to cut narrower grooves than my FS Tool insert set can go (under 1/4").

I like these smaller diameter saws (this one is from Royce/Ayr) about 6" diameter, as they are more rigid and less likely to flutter. This one is 3.2mm I use for setting in 1/8" plywood for splines.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ajcoholic/royce%20blade_zpsnk3djmom.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/ajcoholic/media/royce%20blade_zpsnk3djmom.jpg.html)

[Van Huskey]

Saw blades are useful on heavy duty shapers.

I feel for you having to work with those cheapo shapers.... ;)

[Warren Lake]

what is DAMIK? my bores were done by a very well trained tool and die maker and if there was an issue about doing it how he did it would have been brought up. He had made many hundreds of thousands of dollars of cutters for his own work alone over the years. Old school trained very well and probably in time smarter than his teacher. Ive seen this done on a lathe at very slow speed, He did it on a milling machine and it was not drills something else more accurate just forgot the names of the stuff.

when you talk about flexing its better to bring up what your spacers are first. Im pretty sure all my spacers were at least 3" so that will have an affect on flexing or how much stuff can or will flex. that width is the spacer between and also spacer on each side of the blade, not the regular shaper bushings they are too small. the spacer size will limit your cut at some point but I did tennons this way for cabinet doors and it was very accurate, the negative is there are still shoulders to do.

[Warren Lake]

joe thats a creative set up on the dovetail. What do you think about doing that on an exterior door bottom rail to alllow for cross grain expansion? glue it all for four five inches and the bottom part floats, ive wondered this before fiddly yes but dowels dont allow for it and mortise and tennon not really either but more so. I guess some sort of serious router bit would do the mortise maybe not ideal.

Thats a creative set up with the second cutter ive done that with saw and dado blades but reality was teeth were on one blade plate. thats nice with the cutouts for clearance

[Van Huskey]

what is DAMIK?


Don't ask me how I know, usually used by someone that found out a particular tidbit of information the "hard" way.

[Warren Lake]

got it. Not very helpful though says nothing about the different ways of machining something and how it affects it or if one way does or another doesnt. Do understand the hard way thing though applied to many other things :)

[David Kumm]

Note Joe's restoration of the old Martin. The real deal. Dave

[Van Huskey]

got it. Not very helpful though says nothing about the different ways of machining something and how it affects it or if one way does or another doesnt. Do understand the hard way thing though applied to many other things :)

I dunno, the point he made was a salient one regarding reboring a saw, which is certainly germane to a thread about a process that in many cases will include a saw that has had the arbor hole enlarged.

[Warren Lake]

it states something which is good but it bares questioning like many things do. When this thread started we were just about told its not possible to run a blade on a shaper as shapers run too fast. Is it not possible to bore a hole larger with out affecting the blade? There are different ways of doing it maybe some ways affect the blade and some dont. since I had an overly bright guy do it someone has spent a lifetime making alot of his own tooling he would have brought it up if there was an issue. Its not some one on a drill press with a big drill bit making a hole. That doesnt mean he knows everything because no one does. Ive had many blades opened up and by two different people with different processes. No issues ill track the two of them down and ask.

[Larry Edgerton]

Joe, first time I have seen pictures of the older Martin you were restoring. Very nice! I really like the way it is set up, would suit me just fine. I like the modern color much better. Nice job.

Have been trying to find a tenoning table for my Uni, like hens teeth....

I use 10" blades in my shaper [large] whenever it is what works, has never been a problem. I use Forest, but just because they are the easiest to deal with on a custom bore. 3000rpm

[David Kumm]

For what little it is worth, I have blades bored all the time. 1". 30mm. 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 including dado blades. I use a machinist and have never had a runout issue. Keep in mind the blades are usually large and heavy plate but I have done 10" as well. I think the risk is minimal if you start with a good blade. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

joe thats a creative set up on the dovetail. What do you think about doing that on an exterior door bottom rail to alllow for cross grain expansion? glue it all for four five inches and the bottom part floats, ive wondered this before fiddly yes but dowels dont allow for it and mortise and tennon not really either but more so. I guess some sort of serious router bit would do the mortise maybe not ideal.

Thats a creative set up with the second cutter ive done that with saw and dado blades but reality was teeth were on one blade plate. thats nice with the cutouts for clearance

Hi Warren, a sliding dovetail is feasable but a lot of work. I prefer the European method of stacked rails not glued together for wide rails. This is not acceptable for historic work and we try not to glue more than 8" of wide bottom rails. Other than playing around for fun with dovetails on the shaper I want to try this to make the meeting rail joint stronger on upper sash double hung windows without horns.
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[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, first time I have seen pictures of the older Martin you were restoring. Very nice! I really like the way it is set up, would suit me just fine. I like the modern color much better. Nice job.

Have been trying to find a tenoning table for my Uni, like hens teeth....

I use 10" blades in my shaper [large] whenever it is what works, has never been a problem. I use Forest, but just because they are the easiest to deal with on a custom bore. 3000rpm

Larry, I was starting to develop a spoiled brat complex about always showing pictures of my Martin gear.:) After a year of blood, sweat, time and money I restored this 40 year old rust bucket T23. I think I feel better now…

Shapers with the side mount table are hard to find. There are a couple tables only for sale in Europe right now but expensive to get them here.
I just got it set in place the other day. That is a newer Univer feeder that I had on the machine. I am restoring the one that came with the machine and it is built heavier and goes up and down easier than the newer ones.
I did a write up on the Canadian Vintage forum about the restoration.
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[Joe Calhoon]

Andrew, brings up a good point about fluttering of the blade. My 8" blades are a 3mm kerf and good for a lot of gaskets but for tenoning or deep cuts a thicker blade is much better. I have also found for deep cuts the slowest 3000rpm speed is better.

I should not show this picture of using a 14" blade and please do not try this at home! We had to exactly reproduce a few custom casements that were made 40 years ago by a company no longer in business. Could have had a custom router bit or table saw setup for this but wanted to get er done. Tilting shaft is good for this type work.

Note - This could be made a safer setup by building a plywood hood around the saw blade. I do have a tenon hood but it would not work with the wood fence.
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[Martin Wasner]

I'm usually the last person to get squeamish, but wow. I'd get the part started and hide behind something. I'm sure it was fine, but that looks hairy

[Van Huskey]

Larry, I was starting to develop a spoiled brat complex about always showing pictures of my Martin gear.:)

IMHO anyone that gets tired of looking at them needs to find another hobby or profession.

[Larry Edgerton]

Larry, I was starting to develop a spoiled brat complex about always showing pictures of my Martin gear.:) After a year of blood, sweat, time and money I restored this 40 year old rust bucket T23. I think I feel better now…

Shapers with the side mount table are hard to find. There are a couple tables only for sale in Europe right now but expensive to get them here.
I just got it set in place the other day. That is a newer Univer feeder that I had on the machine. I am restoring the one that came with the machine and it is built heavier and goes up and down easier than the newer ones.
I did a write up on the Canadian Vintage forum about the restoration.
357288

I have decided to weld a nut on the top of my Univer like that one so I can use a cordless to raise and lower. With the double spindle I have to raise it all the way to get enough room to flip because it is in the middle, or when I swing it around to use on the jointer and the table is 44" wide on that shaper so a pain to crank reaching out that far. I'm also changing all my handles to long nuts and hang a flex head Ratchet Wrench on the feeder, much easier. No permanent changes except for the top of the feeder. But then, its not a Martin.

I assume you painted the Univer, could you get new stickers or are those original? That machine is something to be proud of, I'll check out the build thread when I get time.

Back to work............

[Joe Calhoon]

Martin - It was not so bad, we spin that blade at 4000 on the sliding saw and only 3000 on the shaper. With the power feed and running flat on the table I think it was safer than doing it on the saw. In hind site I would have made the threshold in 2 pieces and ran before assembly. We puzzled over how the original makers did this.

Van - Thanks, I worked my way up from the bottom on tools so I really am thankful for what I have now.

Larry - That is the newer feeder, still working on the old one.

[Phillip Gregory]

Saw blades certainly can be run on a shaper. Amana even sells a dado set in their current catalog specifically for that purpose (8" blade with 3/4" or 1" bore IIRC.) Just be careful not to run it too fast and make yourself a good guard.