compound angle dovetails

[David Sloan]

Have been practicing angled dovetails recently. But only single angled. That is, two boards are vertical, 2 slanted. Interested in making a doughbox or sea chest with sides and ends angled outwards. I watched Chad Stanton do it on youtube. He cuts the boards on a tablesaw. I read that Roy Underhill describes the technique of compound dovetails in one of his books. If so, I would buy the book. Wondering if anyone can comment on a good reference for this or their personal experience.

[george wilson]

I have made chests with compound angled corners. The spinet harpsichord I made in my film has a sharp back corner that was dovetailed. That dovetail was later covered by a molding. Hundreds of years ago,people did not think seeing the joints was desirable.

I don't really know what to tell you about compound angle dovetails though. I just automatically altered the angles of the tails,so that visually,they went with the angle of the corners. I would reduce the angle on one side of the tails,and increase the angles on the other, until the dovetail fitted in with the angular "flow" of the corner. I'm sure that doesn't help you a bit! On the side around the corner from the angled dovetail tails,I would also angle the STRAIGHT sides of the dovetails so that they ran parallel with the bottom edge of the chest. They would look quite awkward if you did not do that. You have to have either an eye for such things,or you DO need to get instructions.

[Andrew Hughes]

I think might know what your trying to do I made several hickory pieces with sloping sides.Compound angles were done with a bandsaw or saw guide or both.I really don't remember the tops are also mitered.
My point is it can be done but don't take it too serious you will drive your self crazy.

[steven c newman]

Something like this, maybe?
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Underside view of a tool tote I made..
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I cut the angles into the boards first, then cut the dovetails square to the angled ends..
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Then chop out the waste..
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And the pins..
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Is this what you wanted to know?

[lowell holmes]

Have been practicing angled dovetails recently. But only single angled. That is, two boards are vertical, 2 slanted. Interested in making a doughbox or sea chest with sides and ends angled outwards. I watched Chad Stanton do it on youtube. He cuts the boards on a tablesaw. I read that Roy Underhill describes the technique of compound dovetails in one of his books. If so, I would buy the book. Wondering if anyone can comment on a good reference for this or their personal experience.

Roy covers it in his book "TheWoodwright'sApprentice".

He shows it in chapter 4 "Sailors Sea Chest".

[David Sloan]

All very helpful gentlemen and beautiful work. I will keep at it and I need to buy Roy's book. I have a lot of woodworking books but none of his. Thanks so much for the comments and photos.

[Richard Line]

Try some internet searches. About a year ago I found a number of good explanations on how to lay them out. Unfortunately I forget what I used for a search term. You might just try 'angled dovetails'. What I found was the center lines of the tails and pins were layed out parallel to the top and bottom edges of the box. That means you need 2 sliding bevels with different setting for the top and bottom slop of the dovetail sides. The objective is to have these sides at the same angle off the tail's center line. Hope that helps a little bit.

[Chet R Parks]

Hi David,
I found the 28 minute video that Paul Marcel made on making compound angled dovetails to be vary helpful to me. His demonstration is simple and easy to follow. Skip to the 2:00 min. mark. Good luck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9h9maJNFAc
Chet

[David Sloan]

Hi Chet and Richard. Trust me I searched the internet a lot and have watched the Paul Marcel video which is excellent and helpful. I found that Tom Calisto wrote an article in Popular Woodworking on compound dovetails and he also gives a course at the Woodwright school on making a compound dovetail tray. I have done the angled dovetails without a problem. I found quite a bit on that on the internet. It's the compound dovetails that I am wondering about. The math seems overly complicated for making the compound cuts. I watched Chad Stanton do the compound butt joints with the tablesaw. No one else that I could find talks about making the initial butt angle cuts by hand. I assume one uses a compound miter box? I guess that is all in the Calisto article and in Roy's book which I plan to buy. I hadn't made a hand dovetail joint in probably 15 years and have started making them again. I had read somewhere that someone suggested practicing dovetails by making boxes which will be something useful to use or give away. If the dovetails aren't great, you can just paint the box. So I have been doing just that in an effort to upgrade my skills. Anyway, as you all know, it is a lot of fun!

[Pat Barry]

Hi Chet and Richard. Trust me I searched the internet a lot and have watched the Paul Marcel video which is excellent and helpful. I found that Tom Calisto wrote an article in Popular Woodworking on compound dovetails and he also gives a course at the Woodwright school on making a compound dovetail tray. I have done the angled dovetails without a problem. I found quite a bit on that on the internet. It's the compound dovetails that I am wondering about. The math seems overly complicated for making the compound cuts. I watched Chad Stanton do the compound butt joints with the tablesaw. No one else that I could find talks about making the initial butt angle cuts by hand. I assume one uses a compound miter box? I guess that is all in the Calisto article and in Roy's book which I plan to buy. I hadn't made a hand dovetail joint in probably 15 years and have started making them again. I had read somewhere that someone suggested practicing dovetails by making boxes which will be something useful to use or give away. If the dovetails aren't great, you can just paint the box. So I have been doing just that in an effort to upgrade my skills. Anyway, as you all know, it is a lot of fun!
steven showed you a perfect example. Maybe he could talk you through the details

[Derek Cohen]

Have been practicing angled dovetails recently. But only single angled. That is, two boards are vertical, 2 slanted. Interested in making a doughbox or sea chest with sides and ends angled outwards. I watched Chad Stanton do it on youtube. He cuts the boards on a tablesaw. I read that Roy Underhill describes the technique of compound dovetails in one of his books. If so, I would buy the book. Wondering if anyone can comment on a good reference for this or their personal experience.

David

I recently completed a chest of drawers where the bowed drawer fronts met curved cabinet sides.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/DesigningTheDrawers_html_61fb2f0.jpg

In my case, it was not necessary to alter the angle displayed by the dovetails, per se ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TopOfTheWorldToYou_html_m233f38e0.jpg

Rather, the hard work went into fitting the drawer side to the drawer front by reducing the amount of "compound" with an inspired "trick". This is seen here ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers.html

The curves created many challenges, not the least that even the drawer slips required compound angles to fit inside the drawer. Building anything with curves or compound angles will quadruple the time you plan to build.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

I cut the ends of the boards first to the angle they need to be......

I lay out the pins square to the angled end, and cut those. Once the pins are all nice and cleaned up, I lay out for the tails.

On that tool tote all four sides splay out. I'd have to check for the exact angle...protractor says it is 20 degrees. So, I just cut all the ends at 20 degrees. The dovetails turn out to be square to each other..
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I was trying to build a tote like Underhill made.....didn't care for the nailed corners. Was easier to do all the sides splayed out. I made mine to be able to hold a full sized handsaw. Dovetails are 1/2" through style though some of the spacing got altered, due to knots in the way....
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That is a D-23, 26" long crosscut saw.
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YMMV. Not really "Rocket Science" nor "Brain Surgery"......

[David Sloan]

I cut the ends of the boards first to the angle they need to be......

I lay out the pins square to the angled end, and cut those. Once the pins are all nice and cleaned up, I lay out for the tails.

On that tool tote all four sides splay out. I'd have to check for the exact angle...protractor says it is 20 degrees. So, I just cut all the ends at 20 degrees. The dovetails turn out to be square to each other..
357085
I was trying to build a tote like Underhill made.....didn't care for the nailed corners. Was easier to do all the sides splayed out. I made mine to be able to hold a full sized handsaw. Dovetails are 1/2" through style though some of the spacing got altered, due to knots in the way....
357086
That is a D-23, 26" long crosscut saw.
357087
YMMV. Not really "Rocket Science" nor "Brain Surgery"......


Thanks Steven, very helpful to have those pictures!

[David Sloan]

Derek, thanks so much. That is flat out amazing work! I am so humbled. I lived and worked for a year (in a hospital) in Sydney. Never saw anything like that furniture piece. I should have gone to Perth!

[Derek Cohen]

I cut the ends of the boards first to the angle they need to be......


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YMMV. Not really "Rocket Science" nor "Brain Surgery"......

Stephen, sorry but those angles do not work for me. The dovetails should angle in a way that makes them appear as per "vertical". The ones you cut appear to be on the diagonal. Paul Marcel (see the link above) went into great detail how he calculated the angles he used.

I came across this article/video that may help:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/finewoodworking.s3.tauntoncloud.com/app/uploads/2016/09/05215434/Dovetails_3_xl.jpg


https://youtu.be/FtlbQtcviRc

Link: http://www.finewoodworking.com/2015/07/07/angled-dovetails-knife-tray-third-phase

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I make my dovetail angles like the illustration just above. They are parallel with the base of the chest. This just looks better than dovetails that are at 90 º to the angled side.

Very pretty little knife box,Derek.

[Hasin Haroon]

That is absolutely incredible Derek!

[Mel Fulks]

I think in depends on the project. Those humble table utensil caddys that in their old age take up toting broken hammers, putty knives ,and chisels used as putty knives were often held together with cut nails. On them any kind of dovetail makes them a stand out.

[Derek Cohen]

David and Hasin, thanks for the kind words. The excitement over that piece was last year. You should have been here for the build. Now it is just old hat.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mel Fulks]

"Old hats"!?...you said it was gonna be lingerie.

[Derek Cohen]

Well Mel, hats are cheaper! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Try to help someone with a simple way of doing something, only to be told I am wrong by the "Rocket Scientists of Joinery"?

Thought MAYBE the OP could do the simplier versions first, before attempting Derek's Master Class ones....

Oh well, I will get using that Tool Tote, since it has not shown the slightest hint of "Just falling apart at the seams" sort of .....stuff.

At least mine was an "upgrade" from just nailing it together.

Don't have the time, equipment, or cash to put out fancy "Look at ME" videos....have other things to do..

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Steven

I think that you are taking what I wrote out of context. The OP asked about compound mitred dovetails. These are extremely difficult to do, and you gave them a good go. You did a great job in sawing and fitting them. However, the angle of the dovetail is incorrect for orientation.

There are a couple of articles in FWW magazine to look up if you are an on-line member. The video I posted shows a way that the dovetails need to be angled on a incline to look the same as if they were positioned in a squared edge.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jerry Olexa]

Very useful, informative thread...Good job by all...Thanks

[george wilson]

Steven,no one is trying to belittle you. But everyone has things to learn,me included. I have learned several things since joining this site. I never was a furniture maker,and I pick up things in that area especially. You would make better progress in woodworking if you would listen instead of just getting put off when more experienced craftsmen show something that is worthwhile learning.

[steven c newman]

Haven't seen any worth "learning from" here. Been woodworking almost as long as you have. Another one seems to be nothing more than a Lee Valley Schill.....

Used to churn out chest of drawers every dang week, and chest on chests.....got to be too much of a job....when I had a "Day Job" to begin with.....

Then all them Hope Chests, Bunk Beds, Porch Benches.....sold everything via word-of -mouth......And this was before the internet.

Local Joint Vocational School.....was an assistant Instructor in Carpentry....

"I have fought many wars, Master Dwarf, I know how to defend my Keep" goes the saying....
Had one Uncle that was the "Trouble-shooter" for Monarch Lathes, another built houses......I merely did foundations and finish carpentry for factories, schools, medical buildings, and other assorted buildings. Maybe try to square a retaining wall that is for a dock at a wharehouse, to the dock walls? 50' retaining wall needs to be square to a 100' long wall of truck docks. Simple things like that.....

Now, IF someone new to this craft, were to see a post on how I do projects, learns enough to try to build something out of wood, and gets inspired to learn more about this craft...THAT is what needs done. I am just a Hobbyist nowadays, and the table I am building right now is to sit beside MY side of the bed. Ever thought I MIGHT have something others could learn from? Doubt it.....

[george wilson]

Yes,Steven, I knew you would reject mine, and Derek's info.. But, as I mentioned in the other thread where you rejected the knowledge we offered, others may benefit from the information if they want to make their angled dovetails which flow better with the shape of the box. There are many here who want to learn things. If ONE person picks up on the information that it takes time to write, it is worth it to me. Whether anyone benefits or not, the information I gave about the bead is not easily found in any book I am aware of, and is a valuable tip to know.

I do not think that it is nice, or fair, to call Derek a shill for anyone, LV or otherwise. Just because he tests a few tools for LV. They need someone outside their company to test their tools. He also makes his own planes and some others as well. He is WELL WORTH listening to. If LV selected him to test their tools, it is because he is a craftsman who they respect, a craftsman they can trust to use their tools correctly. That includes sharpening them properly. And, they can trust him to make an intelligently written and comprehensive review of the tool he is testing. His tool reviews are valuable information that any member here would benefit from, before putting large bucks on a special plane, or other tool he is considering.

Derek's tool testing has nothing to do with how to lay out dovetails properly, does it ? If it does, please explain it to me.

In this bit of writing I am using something I learned from another member here: I never took typing, and was unaware that it is correct to leave a space after a comma. I try to do that now. See ? I don't just reject information myself. I KNOW I don't know everything. Especially about using computers. When I was growing up, if I found a man who was doing good work, I hung around him to learn. All through college I stayed with a TRUE MASTER artist as often as I could. I skipped classes sometimes to be in his shop. I was there after school and early in the morning. I took a lot of guff from him, but I knew he had the knowledge I wanted. I swallowed my ego many times and kept on learning from him. That's how I got somewhere as an artist and craftsman.

The method of angling the dovetails like Derek helpfully showed pictures of is the correct way of doing it. I use the same method. It makes the design much more graceful. We, and some others, like David Weaver ( now gone from here), are trying to help others do better work.

Please understand that this post is not meant to sound angry or a put down. It is meant to show the value of CORRECT tips that some qualified members may offer.

[Pat Barry]

The method of angling the dovetails like Derek helpfully showed pictures of is the correct way of doing it. I use the same method. It makes the design much more graceful.
I don't think its correct to say that "this is the correct way of doing it". Its really a matter of visual aesthetics which you feel looks better. That doesn't make it correct though. What steven did was just as correct as the method Derek showed. Both get the job done. Its not necessary to preach about things - that isn't correct.

[steven c newman]

I'll let you two argue this out, I have work to do....have fun...

[Derek Cohen]

What a rude, defensive and egocentric remark.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Last I looked, the designer 's first name on that tool tote was Steven, NOT Derek.....

[steven c newman]

So is an attitude of "My way or the highway" that keeps showing up on other's posts.....telling the OP they are wrong.

[Stewie Simpson]

Last I looked, the designer 's first name on that tool tote was Steven, NOT Derek.....

Well done Steven on the apt description.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

... only to be told I am wrong

Oh Steve, I did not take it that way at all. I took the comment to be more of one related to aesthetics based on intended use.

Consider the cases that I made to hold my chisels. I made one as a dovetailed box and then I glued plywood to the top and bottom and called it done. I have another where I created a frame-in-panel top and bottom and then I applied a finish. One is probably more pleasing to my eye than the other, but they rarely leave my shop. And yes, for sure, what you built is a far from the standard nail version.... but how did you attach the bottom? Did I miss that?

Your well done example is instructive whether the OP goes that route or not. I have handled your tote and in the back of my mind I keep thinking that I should make one because of it, but time, who has the time.

I would never have considered making the cuts parallel to the base if it had not been mentioned, and for sure, I would not have considered the aesthetics.

[george wilson]

Andrew and all: That's what Derek and I have been trying to make some of you see-The aesthetics of the design. No, your box will not fall apart with the dovetails you made,Steven. It will just look more pleasing design wise if the dovetails are made parallel to the longest length of the box. Perhaps something to remember next time ?

Sorry,Pat Making the dovetails parallel to the long axis of the box IS the correct way to do it. You don't want your un angled dovetails making the ends of the box look "droopy". Look at the 2 ways presented CAREFULLY. Which dovetails make the corners seem to "droop". Which dovetails are a graceful termination of the angled ends of the box ?

[Pat Barry]

Andrew and all: That's what Derek and I have been trying to make some of you see-The aesthetics of the design. No, your box will not fall apart with the dovetails you made,Steven. It will just look more pleasing design wise if the dovetails are made parallel to the longest length of the box. Perhaps something to remember next time ?

Sorry,Pat Making the dovetails parallel to the long axis of the box IS the correct way to do it. You don't want your un angled dovetails making the ends of the box look "droopy". Look at the 2 ways presented CAREFULLY. Which dovetails make the corners seem to "droop". Which dovetails are a graceful termination of the angled ends of the box ?
You said it yourself "It will just look more pleasing design wise if the dovetails are made parallel". Purely a question of aesthetics.

[george wilson]

That is correct,Pat. I WAS referring to the aesthetics. To me,and Derek,I'm sure,aesthetics are a very important and integral part of making things. Many things are made heavily into aesthetics,even today. Look at the beautiful body shapes on many modern cars just for one thing. A few,like the CUBE,are really ugly,but most car makers put a lot of effort into the sculpting of their body shapes.

If I can't build beauty into things that I make, what is the point of making them in the first place? Of course,it does take a little higher thought to appreciate beauty.

[steven c newman]

The bottom to that tool Tote was just a slab of white oak. I beveled the edges to match the inside of the tote. Pressed down into place, and then nailed off, no glue.
357409
Roughed out the angle, then planed the bevel to match...
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Once it got to the bottom, I nailed it in place, no glue. Then planed the sides flush for a flat bottom. Large knot? I can use that to clean out any dirt or debris inside the tote...
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Handle was fitted into these, then nailed off, no glue. Makes it easier to replace the handle, should it ever break.

[steven c newman]

Anything else you want to know about the Tool Tote?

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Steve,

You have a post where you include pictures of the tote bottom (three pictures). When I first saw the post, i did NOT see the included pictures. Today I do. Of course I am confused....

Derek,

Awesome chest of drawers. I have always been intimidated by the curved fronts, even more so if I was to make angled dovetails...

[steven c newman]

Andrew: I came back and edited in the pictures. You are more than welcome to come over here and look the tote over anytime. I might have to empty it out, first. Sitting here a bit packed with tools, right now..

[Mateo Panzica]

I had to make all sorts of compound joints when I timber framed... It required lots of "mathifying". For a furniture scale piece, I just make full scale drawings. You'll end up with a map for all your measuring points. Hell, I usually don't even know what the angles are. Made this small chest some years back. Time consuming, like any hand-cut piece. But after the boards were marked, no more of a brain tease than box joints.
357582

[Andrew Hughes]

Awesome Mateo,That box is funky I love it!

[David Eisenhauer]

I have no idea whatsoever what that thing is Mateo, but whatever it is, I like it. A lot. And I'm wondering if you have a kind of Stephen King-type mind.

[Derek Cohen]

I had to make all sorts of compound joints when I timber framed... It required lots of "mathifying". For a furniture scale piece, I just make full scale drawings. You'll end up with a map for all your measuring points. Hell, I usually don't even know what the angles are. Made this small chest some years back. Time consuming, like any hand-cut piece. But after the boards were marked, no more of a brain tease than box joints.
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Hi Mateo

That is a very interesting box. A lot of work went into that piece!

How much of the curved sides were shaped before or after they were dovetailed together?

In designing the dovetails, did you aim to position them differently from, say, a simple square box? And if so, can you say where the challenges lay?

It is difficult to tell from the angle of the photo, but it looks as if the dovetails are aligned with the curve (which changes). Any other photos? I would love to see a front-on one.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

I don't think its correct to say that "this is the correct way of doing it". Its really a matter of visual aesthetics which you feel looks better. That doesn't make it correct though. What steven did was just as correct as the method Derek showed. Both get the job done. Its not necessary to preach about things - that isn't correct.

Angling the tails down creates a situation where the tail is now completely consisting of 'short grain' from its top most corner on down.

You make a fair point, it makes for a better learning experience if one provides the logic behind their example rather than simply stating that the other is wrong. I participate in another forum and have had a more experienced craftsman point out a few things that have improved my work and my way of thinking about my work. The reason being mostly that he provide his logic and reasoning and that inspires thought rather than argument. It is a little embarrassing to be made an example of, but it is also one of the best ways to improve your own work.

[george wilson]

Well stated,Brian.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... if one provides the logic behind their example rather than simply stating that the other is wrong.

Tact is a wonderful thing; rather than "wrong", perhaps "better", "stronger", "faster", "industry standard", "typical", or even "more aesthetically pleasing to many people"....?

Starting with "you're wrong" generally doesn't provoke the free exchange of ideas. It mostly devolves into the free exchange of words.

[Mateo Panzica]

Hey, Derek.

The piece was shaped before it was assembled. The dovetails are at a compound angle, but straight on the inside, and only curved on the outside. The interior of the box is a trapezoid.

There were two main challenges in making this...

The dovetails were cut before any shaping. So, any hollowed planes would become gaps.
The second was the glue-up. There is a lattice of through mortised supports on the top and bottom. I made several dry runs before it was a go.
And, yes. Making it was a major time suck.