DIY Automated Dust Collector System- over my head?

[Peter Aeschliman]

Hi Folks,

I'm finally nearing the completion of my basement shop build out an will soon be ready to move machines in.

Dust collection was a big focus of my project. I've built a sound-proofed closet, cast some concrete trenches in the floor for ducting, etc. Now I'm turning my attention to ducting, blast gates, and switching the central DC and vac on and off. I'm considering a fully-automated blast gate system and could use help determining whether this is over my head... and if not, advice to get me started on the journey of self-education.

My setup:



[*=1]3HP cyclone, will be plumbed with 6" duct
[*=1]DIY central vac cyclone (using an oneida dust deputy and a tangential bypass motor from household central vac systems). This will be used for handheld sanding machines, a domino (someday!), handheld routers, my TS blade guard, vacuuming the floor, router table fence pickup, etc)
[*=1]Both of the above will be vented outside (I have a high efficiency furnace, an electric water heater, CO detectors, no close by neighbors, and a relatively mild climate- don't worry, I did my homework)
[*=1]Blast gates in the wall for make-up air
[*=1]The usual hobby machinery- cabinet saw, router table, BS, Jointer/Planer combo, a drum sander, oscillating spindle sander, two dewalt RASs, etc.


I'm starting down the path of deciding how to control the dust collection system.



At one end of the spectrum, is a fully-automated system. Pneumatically controlled blast gates that open automatically when I turn on the corresponding machine, DC that turns on automatically when I turn on the machine, and make-up air blast gates that open/close depending on whether the DC is running. This is over the top of course for a hobby shop. But when I think about my dream shop, this is one of the elements. :)
At the other end of the spectrum, I'd just use remote controls for the vac and DC, and manually operate the blast gates. K.I.S.S., as they say.
And in between those two options, I'm considering wiring up a low voltage switch system to turn the DC and vac on and off... and maybe a defeat switch that won't let the DC turn on if the make-up air gates are closed, and some annoying blinky lights to tell me that the make-up air gates are open (so I don't forget to close them)


My biggest concern isn't so much the time savings and convenience. It's more that I'm a forgetful person and often leave blast gates open, etc. I can also see myself forgetting to open/close the make-up air blast gates. While I do have a relatively mild climate, I want to keep the basement warm in the winter. Past experiences with venting outside have led me to conclude that concerns about heating loss are overblown (at least for my climate). But I don't want to leave the make-up air gates open for a week, or forget to open them and choke my DC. Furthermore, the cluster of machines around my TS will be laid out in such a way that the blast gates will be difficult to access.

I've looked at the commercially available systems (iVac, nordfab, green gate). iVac and Green Gate only seem to sell 4" blast gates, and Nordfab is prohibitively expensive. I've read all of the write-ups I can find online, and it seems that the blast gates themselves aren't all that complicated or expensive to make yourself.

But I get completely lost when it comes to the electronics though. Most of the write-ups seem to be from engineers who understand this stuff, and do their write-ups with the assumption that their readers have a reasonable amount of prerequisite knowledge... which I definitely do not have

I'm not asking to be spoon fed, but I could use some direction on where to start the research and self-education process. Here is my understanding of the components I'd need for a fully-automated system:



pneumatic cylinders for the blast gates, and related tubing and fittings for the runs. I would use the spring-loaded cylinders to simplify, so that I only need oneair line to each blast gate.
Voltage sensors at each machine, wired to a circuit board or switch board of some kind that will tell the right blast gates to open, and the DC and/or vac to turn on and off
A manifold connecting the compressor to a series of electronic valves, which are connected in some way to the voltage sensors, which send air to the correct blast gates to open them.
A low voltage contactor or relay to power the 30 amp 220v and 20 amp 110 volt DC and vac, respectively
Some kind of time delay device, which keeps the DC running and the blast gates open for 10 seconds or so after I've shut off a machine (to clear the lines)
I'm thinking that it might simplify things to put the make-up air blast gates on a separate circuit or switch box, so they are simply triggered by the DC or central vac turning on or off.


So finally to my questions:

First, is this over my head? Should this be left to a professional electrician / engineer / brainiac?

Second, am I missing any general components?

Third, what are the official names of the components I'm attempting to describe?

Fourth, where should I look for said components?

Fifth, any questions I should be asking, but am to uneducated to ask ("unknown unknowns", to quote Rumsfeld)?

Thanks in advance, especially if you've read this far. :)

Peter

[Dan Friedrichs]

I don't think it would be over your head to do the fully-automated system. The advantage of the fully-automated system is that you never forget or "cheat" - I always find myself thinking, "Oh, I have to lean over to open this blast gate and since it's just a quick cut...", or forgetting to close it, or whatever.

The current sensors to detect when a machine is on are a nice luxury, but you could more easily just rig up a toggle switch (placed next to the machine's power switch) for each machine. Not that the current sensors are excessively tricky, but if you were trying to simplify...

You don't necessarily need spring-return cylinders. Most manifolds have two ports going to the cylinder, and they sell tubing that is 2 tubes side-by-side just for this purpose. I'd also suggest just buying blast gates and attaching the cylinders to them. The DIY blast gates are easy, of course, but it could save some time...

I always thought that a little 12v emergency tire inflator would make an excellent air source for something like this. Maybe a piece of copper pipe as a "tank" for the air. No need to bother hooking a permanent line up to your big air compressor, since these gates use so little air volume.

Pneumatics are really fun to work with, and the components available on the surplus market are super inexpensive for the quality/functionality/ease-of-use.

[Peter Aeschliman]

[Moderators, my apologies! I just realized that i posted this to General Woodworking rather than Workshops. Please move the thread if you don't mind!]

Thanks Dan!!

I'm back to researching PLCs, arduinos, contactors, relays, solonoids, etc. Pretty overwhelming. I've started this research numerous times in the past and have gotten frustrated and have given up. Hopefully I can persevere this time, because it would be such a cool thing to have in the shop.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I'd suggest breaking the system into discrete pieces and seeing what sorts of interfaces are necessary, and it might help simplify things.

For instance, each blast gate gets 2 hoses ran to it. Those hoses run to a valve. If you have x blast gates, you buy a manifold with x valves. Each valve is controlled by a 12V signal (for instance). The DC and vac can be controlled with contactors with a 12V inputs. Each machine could have a switch or current sensor that outputs y volts. At this point, you just have a logic problem: how to get the 12v signal to the contactor(s) and valves to respond appropriately to the inputs from the switches or current sensors. A little Arduino might be perfect for that - it would let you program how long the DC/Vac stays on after a tool is turned off, how long the intake air vents stay open, etc.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I'd suggest breaking the system into discrete pieces and seeing what sorts of interfaces are necessary, and it might help simplify things.

For instance, each blast gate gets 2 hoses ran to it. Those hoses run to a valve. If you have x blast gates, you buy a manifold with x valves. Each valve is controlled by a 12V signal (for instance). The DC and vac can be controlled with contactors with a 12V inputs. Each machine could have a switch or current sensor that outputs y volts. At this point, you just have a logic problem: how to get the 12v signal to the contactor(s) and valves to respond appropriately to the inputs from the switches or current sensors. A little Arduino might be perfect for that - it would let you program how long the DC/Vac stays on after a tool is turned off, how long the intake air vents stay open, etc.

Makes total sense. I'm confident that I can figure out everything except the arduino piece fairly easily. I don't know how to write code, although I know the arduino is considered fairly remedial and there's a lot of open source code available.

[Josh Molaver]

I went with Grngate - very satisfied. All automatic, nothing to remember to change - works great with my Jet 2hp collector. Not the cheapest, but basically plug and play.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I went with Grngate - very satisfied. All automatic, nothing to remember to change - works great with my Jet 2hp collector. Not the cheapest, but basically plug and play.

I like the idea of buying the grn gate system. Only hang up is that they don't seem to offer 6" blast gates, which I'd need for some of my machines. I suppose I might be able to hack their electronics and connect some DIY 6" gates. Not sure though.

[Josh Kocher]

IMO - Keep it simple.

[Jim Becker]

I have to agree with Josh...and that's what I personally did after playing with various "multiple remotes" type things. I have a single, centrally located switch in my shop to turn the cyclone on and off. (It's a 120v circuit that triggers a contactor which in turn controls the power to the cyclone in the closet) As an individual woodworker, I'm only one to five or six steps away from that switch from anywhere in the shop and I don't find it inconvenient in any way. And it's just another way to keep the pace sedate since rushing results in mistakes or worse. Inexpensive, too. :D

[Larry Frank]

I have a single remote for my 5 hp cyclone and it works fine for me. I thought about an automated system but the cost and especially the time to install and work was the too big downside.

However, if you want one then do it. For a hobby shop, it is whatever makes you happy.

[glenn bradley]

Some folks paint their cabinets to match their favorite tool brand colors, some display tools on peg board with outlines indicating each position, some have armor-plate look floor tiles, etc. My shop is not large enough that taking a few steps to reach a gate is an issue for me; that is not the point. If having an automated gate system is a goal for your shop I say more power too you. Like others, the cost versus the benefit and the potential maintenance down the line doesn't pay off for me . . . I also have shop cabinets made from materials and tools in colors that do not match each other ;-)

[Jamie Buxton]

Why use air to operate blast gates, not electricity? Your control electronics are going to be electric, so why not use electric motors to operate the gates? You don't have to make sure the compressor has run. If the controller runs, the motors run. And wires are easier to route around the shop than air hoses.

BTW, iVac does sell 6" blast gates. part number MBG-06-NA.

[Peter Aeschliman]

However, if you want one then do it. For a hobby shop, it is whatever makes you happy.

Yeah, that's where I land. There's no logical reason for wanting to do this at all. My shop isn't a high output production facility, and to Jim's point, it's really not hard to just flip a switch and open/close a few blast gates. :)

I think it will be a great introduction to electrical circuits and programming, and will make me smile every time it works!

[Peter Aeschliman]

Why use air to operate blast gates, not electricity?

An excellent question to which I don't yet have an answer. The difference between a relay and servo (or similar device), vs. a solonoid and a pneumatic cylinder might come down to cost and reliability. But I haven't done the research yet.


BTW, iVac does sell 6" blast gates. part number MBG-06-NA.

Aha. I got grn gate and iVac mixed up. $250 each though- yikes. I could build my own for probably $50 or less.

[Jamie Buxton]

So.. For the KISS approach, you use manual blast gates, and a remote control of sort sort to turn the cyclone on/off. A radio-based remote is nice in that it means you don't need to run wires -- again KISS. For the make-up air, perhaps you make/buy a blast gate. It gets operated by the same relay that operates the cyclone; when the cyclone is on, the make-up air gate is open, and when the cyclone is turned off, the make-up air gate closes.

[Jamie Buxton]

...
Aha. I got grn gate and iVac mixed up. $250 each though- yikes. I could build my own for probably $50 or less.

Yikes indeed.

[Peter Aeschliman]

So.. For the KISS approach, you use manual blast gates, and a remote control of sort sort to turn the cyclone on/off. A radio-based remote is nice in that it means you don't need to run wires -- again KISS. For the make-up air, perhaps you make/buy a blast gate. It gets operated by the same relay that operates the cyclone; when the cyclone is on, the make-up air gate is open, and when the cyclone is turned off, the make-up air gate closes.

Totally. The only components I feel strongly about automating are the make-up air gates. I just know that I will forget to open them, choking the DC (and me), and I'll forget to close them, unnecessarily losing heat in the shop. Next down the priority list are the blast gates that will be difficult to access (i.e., the port in the back/base of the cabinet saw), but end of the day, I could rig up some levers or cables and pulleys to deal with them. The rest of the blast gates really aren't a big deal.

There is a benefit for cases when I just want to make a quick cut and get lazy about turning the DC on though.

Ultimately, the decision of whether to go fully-automated hinges on whether I will enjoy the process of learning, designing, building, and testing. It has to be more about enjoying the process than enjoying the end results. Whether that is the case remains to be seen, but I'm going to start down that path and see how it goes! I'm getting a bit antsy to get the shop set up after about 2 years of remodeling the basement, and this would be yet another delay...

[Ole Anderson]

Make up air? Why do you need make up air?

[Peter Aeschliman]

Make up air? Why do you need make up air?

Because my DC and central vac vent to the outdoors rather than through filters.

[Bruce Wrenn]

You could use manual gates at the machine, and automatic gates for inlet air. A motorized shutter would probably work for your needs. I have a current sensor in panel box that detects when a machine is turned on. It has a "delay on break timer that allow for DC to run 10 seconds afterwards to clear the pipes. I made it using plans in Aug 2000 FWW, and added timer.

[Frank Walker]

The beauty of using pneumatic cylinders is that they don't mind being stalled (not a happy situation for most motors). I have a home brew system that has evolved over 30 years. Started with manual blast gates for each machine (only 1 HP worth of suction). Was always amazed at how you can turn off a machine and but forget to close the gate (that situation does not seem to improve with age). Before long you have 4 or 5 gates open and poor dust collection. I now have 10 machines fitted with automatic pneumatic gates and finally happy. Tap the main air supply and regulate it down to 15 psi. Use pressure to keep the gates closed and pressure to open them (no springs). Only minor issue is that all machines are 230 V and the control valves are all 120 volt so I have to cheat a little and use the ground because no neutrals are handy. NEC used to allow this on dryers and ranges so I claim my system dates back to earlier times. Fit my old gates(both plastic and aluminum) with 3/4" cylinders all are 4" except the thickness planer which is 6". Not a lot of money ($75 per gate) but sure is nice to concentrate on the cut and not the DC function.

Frank

[John C Bush]

Hi Peter,
I have the Greengate system and it is well worth it for me as a hobby WWer. My DC is in an attached shed and exhausts outside. I don't notice any temp loss and tho I feel light headed frequently while in the shop I'm sure it's from the joy of making sawdust(and ducting it outside) and not lack of O2!! My ducting is overhead and most dust ports are low on the machines and I knew that I would "forget" to bend over to open/close the gates when scurrying from machine to machine as I mill stock. The system came with the control panel and four 4" gates. I bought an additional one and they do have 6" gates but stuck with the 4"ers. Works well for all my machines--even when hogging wide stock on a 20" planer. You can program the system to control gate opening/closing time, multiple gates at a time, turn on DC when machine turned on, auto DC shutdown when machine turned off, etc., etc. I usually turn on the DC and leave it running and the gates open and close as I move from machine to machine. Incredibly convenient, big time saver and no brainer in regard to impatiently "forgetting" to open and close the gates. I grumbled about the cost initially but after ~10 years of use it is well worth it. CS is great--I had one motor fail and I shipped it back to them and they rebuilt the gate @ a very reasonable $$. I live in Edmonds and you are welcome to test drive mine if you wish. Designing and building your own automated system sounds like fun but this plug and play system is worth the investment IMHO. Good luck and want to see pics of your new shop. John.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Update on my latest thinking.

I bought an arduino starter kit and started going through a book with simple practice projects. Pretty fun. But long story short, I started to realize I need to learn more about circuitry than I have the patience for. It wasn't one of those things I could simply google to find out the answers to, as nearly all of the posts, blogs, and videos immediately sail right over my head. So it's really hard to learn that way.

I decided instead to do it all with relays, and simplify things a bit. The arduino is super cool, but I concluded that it was more work than it was worth. I'm a little bummed about that, but I need to get my shop set up and get to work!

I've purchased some blast gates from Penn State Industries, which have switches on them. They also sell the just the switches, which I can wire to my 6" blast gates (they only sell the 4" gates with the switches installed). I plan to wire them directly to a contactor or relay that turns the dust collector on and off.

For the vast majority of my blast gates, it's easy to simply open them by hand. And since the dust collector will stay on when ANY blast gate is open, i won't make the mistake of leaving any gates open.

For the gates that will be difficult to open by hand, like the TS cabinet pick-up and the under-table router table pickup, I will automate them with air cylinders and solonoids, wired to hall effect sensors at the machines.

Similarly, the make-up air blast gates will be automated and wired to the dust collector current.

And lastly, my central vac will be operated by remote control.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Why use air to operate blast gates, not electricity?

I tried building electric ones, once. They used a small DC motor and a piece of threaded rod that pulled/pushed the gate. They were not great. A stalled motor is a serious problem - a little bit of dust or binding can cause major problems in a hurry. A stalled air cylinder just happily sits there.

The tubing to run an air cylinder is really no larger nor difficult to route than wires to a motor. With a motor, you likely need a DC power supply - with the air cylinders, you need a small compressor and valves - same burden, either way.

Some people have built electrically-actuated ones using a "butterfly" valve design, but that is clearly inferior to the "slide" type that most people are familiar with. I think one of the commercial options uses a "swing" gate, which may be a viable option for an electrically-actuated version, though. That requires a lot of curved pieces, though, making it more of a design and construction hassle than a "slide" type gate.

[Malcolm McLeod]

...
I decided instead to do it all with relays, and simplify things a bit.
...

This is a quick sketch I did to plan a central 'automated' DC system:
357600

Red is AC, blue is DC and would require AC/DC power supply (~5Amp for ~$30.00 ...but could be AC if you pick the right components).

M# are the motors on your tools (add as many as you need). Each one defines a 'station'.

The S# devices are AC current switching devices like this: http://www.nktechnologies.com/current-sensing-switches/as1-current-sensing-switch/

R# devices are double pole relays (single-throw will work in this case, but DPDT are more common; pick coil voltage to suit).

G# are how you'd wire the solenoid for a pneumatically operated gate. Or, you could also use this contact on the station's relay to drive a motor operated gate.

The TDR is a Time Delay Relay (delay on 'OFF'). Relay contacts on the TDR would drive the starter on your DC. The 'R3' is to indicate how you'd tie in an additional station - - each station just parallels into the TDR.

Operation:
Motor (M1) on tool starts.
Sensor (S1) closes when it detects the threshold amperage.
Relay (R1) coil energizes--
-- Contact (R1-1) closes and energizes solenoid (G1).
-- Gate (G1) opens.
-- Contact (R1-2) closes and energizes TDR.
-- Dust collector starts.
Motor stops.
Dust collector runs until TDR timer expires.

Edit: I'd use a flow control valve on the pneumatic cylinders to throttle the 'closing' air so that it takes several seconds to close. This is probably cheaper than using timer-delay relays for each station.

[Peter Aeschliman]

This is a quick sketch I did to plan a central 'automated' DC system:
357600

Red is AC, blue is DC and would require AC/DC power supply (~5Amp for ~$30.00 ...but could be AC if you pick the right components).

M# are the motors on your tools (add as many as you need). Each one defines a 'station'.

The S# devices are AC current switching devices like this: http://www.nktechnologies.com/current-sensing-switches/as1-current-sensing-switch/

R# devices are double pole relays (single-throw will work in this case, but DPDT are more common; pick coil voltage to suit).

G# are how you'd wire the solenoid for a pneumatically operated gate. Or, you could also use this contact on the station's relay to drive a motor operated gate.

The TDR is a Time Delay Relay (delay on 'OFF'). Relay contacts on the TDR would drive the starter on your DC. The 'R3' is to indicate how you'd tie in an additional station - - each station just parallels into the TDR.

Operation:
Motor (M1) on tool starts.
Sensor (S1) closes when it detects the threshold amperage.
Relay (R1) coil energizes--
-- Contact (R1-1) closes and energizes solenoid (G1).
-- Gate (G1) opens.
-- Contact (R1-2) closes and energizes TDR.
-- Dust collector starts.
Motor stops.
Dust collector runs until TDR timer expires.

Edit: I'd use a flow control valve on the pneumatic cylinders to throttle the 'closing' air so that it takes several seconds to close. This is probably cheaper than using timer-delay relays for each station.


This is fantastic, Malcom. Thanks so much!

[Steven Wayne]

Peter,

I have a PLC controlled fully automated dust collection system in the works (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?245980-Dust-collection-automation-PLC-controlled-pneumatic-dust-collection-blast-gates). I'm finally to the installation stage. I went the pneumatic route. It's going well thus far. Lots of install to do still.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Very nice!

A PLC is a bit over my head I think! But I'd love to hear more about it.

[Dennis Yamamoto]

All of this discussion got me interested in looking at some Ecogate Green box stuff I bought from a shop that was closing several years ago. I have more or less two systems: each one for up to 8 blast gates, and one with a power relay for a 5 - 10 hp dust collector.

I haven't installed this because: 1) I have a Euro combo machine with several electric motors and multiple blast gates which makes it more complicated to configure, and 2) I probably have to either cut up or buy a bunch of expensive Nordfab parts.

Here's what I have:

System #1
Ecogate Green Box 8 gate controller
Ecogate Power Relay (3 pole relay, 5 hp single phase 220 VAC or 10 hp three phase 220 VAC)
4 – 6” Ecogate metal blastgates
2 – 5” Ecogate metal blastgates
2 - 4” Ecogate metal blastgates
8 – 6” collars to connect the Ecogate to 6” pipe
4 – 5” collars to connect the Ecogate to 5” pipe
2 – 4” collars to connect the Ecogate to 4” pipe
8 - Machine or motor sensors for each gate
Remote switch to turn on the dust collector for a floor sweep
Lots of wire for connection from controller to gates

System #2
Ecogate Green Box 8 gate controller (1 hp at 110 VAC, 2 hp at 220 VAC)
5 - 4” Ecogate metal blastgates
8 – 4” collars to connect the Ecogate to 4” pipe
5 - Machine or motor sensors for each gate
Remote switch to turn on the dust collector for a floor sweep
Lots of wire for connection from controller to gates

I just tested everything and it all works. If anyone is seriously interested in buying this stuff, let me know. PM me your email address and I can send pictures. Otherwise I will put it in the classified section in a couple of days. I just need to figure out how to price it! Oh, local pickup only south of San Francisco about 40 miles.

Thanks,

Dennis