Veritas Shooting Plane vs Veritas LAJ?

[Frederick Skelly]

Guys,
Over in Hasin's "out of square shooting plane" thread, Phil Mueller said "I could shoot fine with my LAJ, but this (LV shooter) is one of those tools where the task becomes exponentially easier with excellent results."

Well, I also have an LAJ and it shoots nicely enough that I was content with it. But Phil's comment makes me wonder if I'm missing something. Just how much better could a specialized/dedicated shooter be? For those of you who own both tools, could you tell me if you feel the shooting plane was worth the money, compared to what you could already do with your LAJ? And why? Sort of like Phil did?

Thanks guys.
Fred

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Well, sir, the value is relative to how much you use it, but I have no regrets after getting the shooting plane. It is likely the best plane they make. It certainly is more suited for shooting with the adjustable handle, skewed iron, and big, SQUARE sides. It's a costly plane, but it will step up your joinery game. If you build a long shooting board you can joint long edges with it.

[Prashun Patel]

I have both. I have even invested in the shooting track.

If I had to keep one, it'd be - hands down - the shooting plane. The mass and ergonomics and skew blade make shooting much easier with the SP than the jack. I also like having the shooting plane permanently set up.

I suppose the benefit of a dedicated shooting plane decreases as your sawing skill increases.

I use my LA Jack for smoothing, jointing, and scrub planing, and shooting. I find the dedicated smoothing, jointer, scrub plane, and shooting plane all do the job better and easier than the LA Jack does for me.

Is the shooting plane an extravagance? Yes. but...

[Doug Hepler]

Frederick,

I agree with Malcolm and Prashun. Before I bought the shooting plane, I made a hotdog (side handle) for an old #4 bench plane. It worked but was not really acceptable (awkward). I tried to like shooting with a low angle block plane and a lovely LV low angle jack, but they were awkward, also. As you can see, I did not want to spend the money for the shooting plane. I am very glad I did. I get pleasure from using the right tool for the job, especially of its a very well designed tool. I have no regrets except maybe that I waited so long to buy one.

Doug

[Jim Koepke]

My main problem with the shooting plane is convincing my wife both the left and right handed models are needed.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

In 2011, before the Veritas shooting plane was a concept, I purchased the LN #51 to replace a Stanley #51. This was used on a Stanley #52 chute board. What a combination! At the same time, I used a Veritas LA Jack on a wooden ramped shooting board. Excellent plane and I could happily have lived with this alone.

Later that same year I was invited to be a presenter at a LN tool event in Perth, and I decided to take along a bunch of shooting boards and shooting planes for the public to cast their votes on the best shooting plane. Into this group went the LN #9. There is a write up of this here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ShootingPlanesCompared.html

The long-and-short of it was that the LN#51 was a runaway winner when used in the #52 chute board, while the Veritas LA Jack was actually preferred to the LN #9 when the correct hold technique was used. Overall mass entered the equation with the latter planes. The concensus that that the #51 was child's play to use in a captured runway.

Two years later, in 2013, the Veritas Shooting Plane arrived on the scene. I was sent one of the preproduction planes to evaluate. It was received with mixed feelings as I was in love with the LN, and preferred its vintage look (although the modern Veritas is very attractive). Later, I wrote up my observations here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html

The main benefit of using the Veritas over the LN lies with its longer edge life (due to bed height) and ease of blade change (BU vs BD). The slightly heavier LN is preferred for its slightly extra mass ... for a dozen strokes, and then the blade will dull. I emphasise that it is not the LN A2 steel here - I have the same results with other steels, including PM-V11, in this plane. I still prefer the looks of the LN, but it is the Veritas that lives on my shooting board.

Both these planes are significantly better than the LA Jack. However, no one should feel that they are missing out on performance if do not own a #51-type. One can comfortably shoot edges with just about any plane as long as the blade is sharp - I used to use a HNT Gordon Trying Plane with a 60 degree bed. The #51-type lifts the game in terms of ease of use as long as the plane is used in a captured runway. The LA Jack does not have this limitation, since the grip is forward, but it is also improved with a captured runway. Keep in mind that the LA Jack has other uses, and the shooting plane is a one-task wonder.

One of the advantages of the #51-type is the skewed blade. The Veritas shooting plane also has the same low bed as the LA jack. This combination makes for the least impact vibration and the best blade wear on hard end grain. If you can afford it, the shooting plane will reward you with a pleasurable experience. It will not make you a better woodworker ... just feel like one.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[glenn bradley]

I have both. I have even invested in the shooting track.

If I had to keep one, it'd be - hands down - the shooting plane. The mass and ergonomics and skew blade make shooting much easier with the SP than the jack. I also like having the shooting plane permanently set up.

I suppose the benefit of a dedicated shooting plane decreases as your sawing skill increases.

I use my LA Jack for smoothing, jointing, and scrub planing, and shooting. I find the dedicated smoothing, jointer, scrub plane, and shooting plane all do the job better and easier than the LA Jack does for me.

Is the shooting plane an extravagance? Yes. but...


I do as Prashun does.

[Frederick Skelly]

This is just what I was looking for. Thank you guys!
Fred

[Simon MacGowen]

I have both and still use both of them for shooting. Can you live without the shooting plane? Absolutely, unless shooting is what you do 24/7. The Veritas shooting plane is hands down better than LN's. If you have the extra money, get it. If you have some other tools (you don't have) to consider, skip it. It won't significantly improve your work or results.

I received my shooting plane as a gift; otherwise, I wouldn't spend my money on it as I have always been happy with the Veritas LAJ as a shooter.

Simon

[Dave Zellers]

... This was used on a Stanley #52 chute board. ...

Now for the first time it makes sense to me. The plane runs in a chute.

How did it morph into 'shooting board'?

[Joe Bailey]

How did it morph into 'shooting board'?

The same way "rebate" became "rabbet"

[andy bessette]

DC--good post. And thanks for the great links.

[glenn bradley]

Now for the first time it makes sense to me. The plane runs in a chute.

How did it morph into 'shooting board'?


The same way "rebate" became "rabbet"

That's right. We don't speak English, we speak American. :D

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks all for this post. I'll ask a related question--I currently don't have a decent shooting option and a vintage #7. I've been considering a LV custom jointer to use as both a jointer and for shooting. Does anyone have experience with the jointer for shooting? Would consider getting a custom 42.5 deg. frog to facilitate shooting, without appreciable loss of performance for jointing.

Relatedly, does anyone have a thought about using the shooting plane for planing end grain outside of shooting (i.e., using 'freehand' to clean up dovetails, etc.)?

In short, I'm considering a jointer that secondarily covers shooting or a shooting plane that covers larger end grain (for which I currently use a block plane). In the end, I'll likely end up with both and I've considered the LA Jack, but sense that the LA Jack would not be the best route.

FWIW I work primarily with milder domestics.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
C

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Christopher

I do use my Custom #7 for shooting, but only the edges of panels. Here is an example match planing two thin (1/4") panels ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/OneStepBack_html_m15577872.jpg


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/OneStepBack_html_3c67e8a7.jpg



This #7 has a 40 degree bed, which means that it is planing at a low angle, somewhat the same as a LA Jack might. It works very well on face grain when the chipbreaker is closed down. You could just get a second frog, say one at 50 degrees, if you do not want to mess with the chipbreaker.

With regards shooting on a shooting board, I did demonstrate this in the review I wrote. Here is an extract ...

Shooting


You would think by now that we have enough choices for shooting planes! Well, here is another one.


Unlike the Veritas BU Jointer, which has a raised and reinforced toe, the sides of the BD #7 plane are flat and square.


Step 1: While you can use any angle bed, this is where the 40-degree frog will perform better on end grain. For the purposes of experimenting, this was added.


Step 2: The bad news is that the BD plane is uncomfortable to hold and push on a shooting board. The good news is that there are two threaded inserts where one may add a knob against which to push.


If you want to do this, the threads to obtain are 10-32.


Here is the knob I turned (don’t ask me for dimensions – but do not make the lower end extend over the edge of the sole).


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes2_html_m31cbd015.jpg


I found that the forward insert places the handle too far forward, which unbalances the plane. The rear insert is just right.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes2_html_33bdec4a.jpg


And it works rather well …




http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes2_html_m7d38e51e.jpg

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes1.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ron Patrick]

As others have said, I have both and you would have to pry the shooting plane from my cold, dead hands, lol.

[Christopher Charles]

Derek,

Many thanks for your reply. I found the details of your post after posing my question and it is useful to have you confirm my suspicions.

Best,
Chris

[Chris Hachet]

My main problem with the shooting plane is convincing my wife both the left and right handed models are needed.

jtk


My main problem is justifying the LV version after I already own a LN Mitre Plane.

[Chris Hachet]

Thanks all for this post. I'll ask a related question--I currently don't have a decent shooting option and a vintage #7. I've been considering a LV custom jointer to use as both a jointer and for shooting. Does anyone have experience with the jointer for shooting? Would consider getting a custom 42.5 deg. frog to facilitate shooting, without appreciable loss of performance for jointing.

Relatedly, does anyone have a thought about using the shooting plane for planing end grain outside of shooting (i.e., using 'freehand' to clean up dovetails, etc.)?

In short, I'm considering a jointer that secondarily covers shooting or a shooting plane that covers larger end grain (for which I currently use a block plane). In the end, I'll likely end up with both and I've considered the LA Jack, but sense that the LA Jack would not be the best route.

FWIW I work primarily with milder domestics.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
C


The vintage #7 and the Shooting plane are wildly different planes IMHO. A vintage #7 can be had for relatively short money, the shooting plane is a big investment (for me anyways.) I would buy depending on cash flow...

FWIW I can joint longer boards just fine with my type 13 stanley (Hock Blade) that I bought for $12 in 1989....the #5 makes a not so good shooting plane. My #7 does not work well as a shooting plane.

[Chris Hachet]

I do as Prashun does.


Bingo....words of wisdom here.

[Chris Hachet]

Derek,

Many thanks for your reply. I found the details of your post after posing my question and it is useful to have you confirm my suspicions.

Best,
ChrisIndeed, he is an excellent "elder statesman" on our hand tool forum...