Thicknesser electrics. SCM S3B

[ThomasJ Graham]

Hello everybody,

I have acquired a stupidly big thicknesser, a 630mm SCM S63B. That's 24 inches. The breaker for the main cutter block motor is dead and the breaker for the drive motor has been replaced with a new one. The wiring between the two has been cut. Does anybody out there have one of these machines or know how I might go about finding out how these should be wired?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Tom

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[Larry Edgerton]

I have the manual for my 520S but my feed rollers are driven by the same motor so I don't think it will help. And SCM manuals are english translated by a chinese/russian/german as far as I can tell. Does yours have a separate motor for the rollers or is the second breaker for the table lift motor?

[Darcy Warner]

I have a Rockwell scm s63. Separate motors.

Parts pronto has manuals online.

[Rick Fisher]

The wiring diagram and manual should be available at partspronto.com

[Frank Drew]

I've never heard of partspronto; sounds like a great resource, so thanks, Darcy and Rick.

[ThomasJ Graham]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, two motors, one for rollers, one for cutter block. I had already got hold of the manuals via Parts Pronto but unfortunately there's no drawing showing wiring. The spare parts list has some clues but isn't clear. Lots of options for different variants.

Does anyone know how to wire the breaker auxiliaries to each other?

In the meantime I think I'll inspect some of the other SCM manuals from partspronto for clues.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, two motors, one for rollers, one for cutter block. I had already got hold of the manuals via Parts Pronto but unfortunately there's no drawing showing wiring. The spare parts list has some clues but isn't clear. Lots of options for different variants.

Does anyone know how to wire the breaker auxiliaries to each other?

In the meantime I think I'll inspect some of the other SCM manuals from partspronto for clues.

Thomas, welcome to the Creek. Where are you located?

I have worked on several control systems from European suppliers, even spent a week in school with Krauss-Maffei in Munich. They have their very own hieroglyphics for electrical schematics. I'm sure they are perfect, but you have to work with them frequently to make sense of them.

If you strike out on finding the correct schematics, maybe I can help here. Look for any existing wire numbers. Trace each wire and wrap unique numbered tape on each end of all the wires, take lots of pics from all angles and post them.

Try to trace all the wires and sketch what you can onto a 'single line' drawing. This is just a simple way to draw 3-phase power - draw one heavy line to represent all 3 wires (i.e. from motor to starter). ID and label all of the devices - starters, CBs, switches, hour meters, pilot lights, etc. Post a pic of your drawing.

If all else fails, we just re-design the electrical to use the components you have. Bottom line is, with only 2 motors, this just isn't that complicated. The number of wires in a 3-phase system just makes it look that way.

Edit: As for the Aux contacts (assume you mean the sidecar-mounts on the CBs), typically, they'd be wired in series. If either CB trips, this circuit is broken, and would kill the power to the coil on a magnetic starter. However, looking at the photo in your OP, it looks like you have a manual motor starter...? So not sure exactly how it's used based on info I have now.

[Bill Dufour]

I would ignore how it was wired originally. How do you want it wired for your use? Do you want the feed rollers to run all the time the machine is running? Or do want to be able to turn them off. I would also add another stop switch or two on the outfeed side of the machine. Maybe a ram bar switch.
Personally I would get a small VFD to run the feed rollers and allow variable feed RPM. As long as you stay around 30% up or down it should be good.
The question is why did the contactor fail. Dust on the contacts maybe. Do they work by hand and a dry stick. Maybe the coil is the wrong voltage and it was connected to a higher voltage and burned up. A contactor should last the life of the motor and then some, especially if the motor is single phase.



Bill

[ThomasJ Graham]

Thanks Bill and Malcolm. Very useful responses. Malcolm, your bottom line is logical and reassuring. I'll put together a schematic that will hopefully help me and anyone who looks at it (perhaps you if you're feeling that generous!).

I'm based in the UK but taking advantage of this excellent forum, even if you do speak a little funny over there...

Also, the internet tells me there are a few of these machines over on your side of the ocean.

Will post a drawing a little later.

[ThomasJ Graham]

I've attached a schematic drawing for the wiring. My first ever. I'm learning here.... I forgot to take any more pictures unfortunately.

Anyone got any pearls of wisdom on where to go from here?

Bill, regarding the VFD for variable speed on the feed, the machine actually uses a nice little mechanical system whereby the motor is suspended and attached to a lever. The pulley attached to the motor is V-shaped but the faces of it are sprung rather than fixed. When the lever is pulled, the motor moves up, shortening the distance to the rollers, the lesser pressure around the pulley allows it to contract, pushing the belt further out and thus running at a higher ratio, therefore faster. I'm not an engineer so don't really have the terminology to describe correctly but I hope you get the picture. Tested without a load on it it seems to work really well.

Thanks,

Tom

[Malcolm McLeod]

I believe the variable speed mechanism you describe is a Reeves Drive (on this side of the pond) or at least the Euro equal of it. As for the electrical, I have had ~10 minutes to look and still absorbing, but a quick look found this:

What you have labeled in your drawing as "Circuit Breaker" is actually a manual motor starter with overload protection. I see a label "GV1-M20" on one, and best info I can find says its a starter and obsolete. Still looking for installation manual for it.

Based on the pic and the schematic, it now seems you have a soft-start (0-Y-D) on the beast as well. Can you post the part numbers for the other components?

[Darcy Warner]

Almost all euro machines are y start delta run, even all the way back to some of the early 60's German stuff I have.

[ThomasJ Graham]

Attached is an updated schematic adjusting to the information you've given me Malcolm. Sorry for using the wrong terminology. It's hard to make sense when you don't even know the names of things! Also attached are images of the two starters/circuit breakers (Telemecanique GV1 M20 for the cutterblock and Moeller PKZM0-2.5 for the rollers). I understand the Telemecanique one is original. The Moeller one is a replacement. On this one there was a red cable coming out of the top of L2 that has been cut. Also, ones going into the contact block at the front and back that have had the same treatment. I don't know why this would have been done.

Regarding getting the machine running, I was considering sourcing the same GV1 M20 and wiring it in but was worried that there was something not right with the rest of the wiring that caused the failure in the first place. Anyone got any thoughts.

Reeves drive is the thing. Wasn't convinced it would work until I got the thing fired up and it proved itself to me.

Thanks

[Malcolm McLeod]

Thomas,
The power wiring looks fine, per your schematic. If the components are functioning properly, then the correct power should be delivered to both of the motors. (The soft start should tie to the U/V/W/X/Y/Z cutter motor leads.)

The problem (if any) may lie in the control wiring, but I am still not understanding things related to 3 items:
1) You have 2 wires shown going 'into' the left side of the M20. Do these actually terminate on the M20? Do both wires land on the same terminal? Its hard to tell from the pic, but could this just be a screwed 'splice' (resting against the side of the M20)? I have not found a manual for the M20, so still scratching my head.

2) The aux contact block on the M20 (:: GV1A02) should have both normally open and normally closed contacts. Which wire(s) is on which contact?

3) What is the make and model of the 0-Y-Delta switch? The 0 (ZED!!) has me wondering are there operators on the front (PBs or selector switch)? Can you post pics (front & back)?

[ThomasJ Graham]

Thanks again Malcolm,

Hopefully I can begin to clear up those bits you've highlighted. I will need to take more pictures later today though.

1) The two wires going into the side of the M20 are shown in the attached image. They literally go into the side. There is a small cutout for them and you'd have to separate the front from the back of the unit where there is a seam. I haven't done this so don't know what the terminal inside looks like/is. I'll take a better picture later.
2) I'll inspect this block further later today to make it clear what's what there.
3) Attached is the only picture I have of the 0-Y-Delta switch at the moment. It's a Breter CM0020R. Also attached is the front of the unit with the isolator switch below. Not sure what your query was here. What's a PB? Hopefully the front picture answers your question though.

More photos later.

Tom

[Malcolm McLeod]

Thanks again Malcolm,

Hopefully I can begin to clear up those bits you've highlighted. I will need to take more pictures later today though.

1) The two wires going into the side of the M20 are shown in the attached image. They literally go into the side. There is a small cutout for them and you'd have to separate the front from the back of the unit where there is a seam. I haven't done this so don't know what the terminal inside looks like/is. I'll take a better picture later.
2) I'll inspect this block further later today to make it clear what's what there.
3) Attached is the only picture I have of the 0-Y-Delta switch at the moment. It's a Breter CM0020R. Also attached is the front of the unit with the isolator switch below. Not sure what your query was here. What's a PB? Hopefully the front picture answers your question though.

More photos later.

Tom

Tom,
I am still drawing a blank on manuals, for both the GV1 and the Breter, however, I got a few moments of quality time with your schematic:
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There doesn't seem to be any way to get flow in the control wire string (see mods to your schematic). Even if the control wiring and contacts are properly configured, there is no voltage difference between the 'ends'. I suspect if you simply move the control power 'source' wire on the isolation switch from L2 to L1, the wiring might work as-is....? Before you do that, measure the voltage between L1 & L2, then verify that the M20 coil voltage matches the reading between L1 & L2. If it doesn't match, you'll need to replace the coil using one with the proper rating.

With no manuals, I'm only guessing at the control power contacts and 'flow', but the Breter contacts (#1/2/3/5) must switch the control power and the GV1A02 contacts serve as 'latching' contacts to the M20 coil. The #5 wire seems to serve no purpose at all in the current configuration, but I assume it is a holdover from the circuit's previous life (with the soft-start switch controlling both starters?).

Perhaps a current owner can confirm, but I assume (again) that the original start sequence was:
1- operator switched from 0 -> 'Y', M20 coil pulls in, and the cutterblock started (in Star connection);
2- after a few seconds to stabilize, operator switched from 'Y' to 'Delta',
3- Cutterblock motor is re-connected as 'Delta' (via changes to soft-start contacts, M20 remains energized.), and contacts on soft start pulled in starter coil for feed rolls.

The feed tie-in is gone from all I can determine, and with no pic of the overall front panel, I'm left to assume this is started via a manual switch on the starter.

PB=pushbutton.

[Bill Dufour]

If you can not figure out the slow start system, or is it is bad, any VFD will give you ramp up to speed adjustable. The slow start is really only needed for big loads with limited power input. But slow start is easier on the machine and motors.

[Malcolm McLeod]

:confused:...Was it something I said??

Hopefully the OP has found his answers.