Water stones

[Samuel Green]

Hi Creekers,

I am trying to find some information on water stones for sharpening my chisels and plane blades. I currently use the sandpaper on a piece of glass set up but was potentially looking to set up one of these. I saw the Samurai carpenter build this on youtube and I wanted to give it a shot. He is incredible and my work won't look like this but I figure why not take on projects that are above your skill level!

My question is does anyone have any suggestions on what stones to buy and what grits would be best for this set up? Any information is appreciated.

Thank you!

356537

[David Eisenhauer]

If you run a search, you will find volumes (yes, volumes) of info on sharpening methodology generated in the handtool forum on the best stones/methods for sharpening chisels and plane irons. The discussions will argue for the various types of stones ( and films, paste, DNA alteration and Unobtanium sources) plus what is considered the best brand/type of each of the differing methods of sharpening. In evry broad general terms, the bulk of the camps have settled into the: 1) diamond plates 2) mostly man-made water stones 3) oil stones - with many, many nuances to bridge between. There are some excellent You Tube videos touting the various methods and their application as well. Each method, to my eye, has it's own virtues and failings. Personal preference, shop layout, type of projects the tools are used on and type of steel in the blades to be sharpened all enter in to it. The common advise is to read through the info available (or until you reach your own personal saturation level) and then pick a method and try that method out faithfully to the expected norm of that method before abandoning it for another method. Be careful, some of those guys are dead-solid seriously wrapped way too tight when it comes to sharpening discussions.

[Mike Ontko]

If you run a search, you will find volumes (yes, volumes) of info on sharpening methodology generated in the handtool forum on the best stones/methods for sharpening chisels and plane irons. The discussions will argue for the various types of stones ( and films, paste, DNA alteration and Unobtanium sources) plus what is considered the best brand/type of each of the differing methods of sharpening. In evry broad general terms, the bulk of the camps have settled into the: 1) diamond plates 2) mostly man-made water stones 3) oil stones - with many, many nuances to bridge between. There are some excellent You Tube videos touting the various methods and their application as well. Each method, to my eye, has it's own virtues and failings. Personal preference, shop layout, type of projects the tools are used on and type of steel in the blades to be sharpened all enter in to it. The common advise is to read through the info available (or until you reach your own personal saturation level) and then pick a method and try that method out faithfully to the expected norm of that method before abandoning it for another method. Be careful, some of those guys are dead-solid seriously wrapped way too tight when it comes to sharpening discussions.

Yep. That pretty much sums it all up :)

And don't sell yourself on only one method. Different tools/blades/edges may require different approaches. Or, it may be that a combination of methods works best.

For me--I use sandpaper glued to a plate of glass for all of my basic grinding and sharpening, with grits from 80 up to 1500 (anything from 400 to 1500 is for honing). After that, I've got a 4000 Norton water stone that helps me get a shiny sharp edge on my chisels and plane blades. And, I've glued a piece of thick leather to an ash board to use for stropping my bench chisels between honings.

[andy bessette]

Check with The Japan Woodworker store.

[Ben Rivel]

Give this video a watch: LINK (http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/my-sharpening-system/)

[Van Huskey]

Head over to the Neander sub forum and you will find more info than you want, no seriously, you can read for days and when you finish have more questions than you do now...

There is hardly a topic in all of woodworking that you will get more varied opinions on but the good thing is most all of them work and it does allow for a lifetime of trying new approaches and stones if that is your kinda thing.

[Dave Cav]

What everyone (pointing up) said about the Neander forum.

Or you can just get Shapton Pro stones in 1000 and 5000 and call it good.

[Mike Cutler]

What are you looking to do?

As everyone has stated, there is a wealth of info on the subject, and everyone has their preferred method.
I have water stones in the following grits;
200 grit for removing a lot of material fast. You can ruin a nice plane iron or chisel edge with this stone really fast. Yep, I have
400 grit only because it is the flip side of a 1000 grit stone.
800 grit. A good place to start for a blade that hasn't been trashed.
1000 grit for the beginning of an edge.
1200 grit because it's the flipside of a stone. Still good for beginning the initial work, and starting the secondary microbevel.
4000 for the first polishing of both the initial and microbevel.
8000 for the final polished edge. Probably not really necessary, but .........
12000 for ego. Because it's really cool to have a mirrored finish on your blade edges. My wife thinks I'm a little goofy about this.

As an a side, you'd be stunned at how cheaply I've obtained these stones through the years from folks that have started down the path and found it just wasn't their cup of tea, so to speak.

I also have oil stones, a set of slip stones, and a set of ceramic stones for serrated blades and farrier's knives.

All that said, Dave Cav has some really good advice. ;)

[Malcolm Schweizer]

There are, as already stated, 100 times as many opinions on this as there are waterstones. I now sharpen knives for top local chefs along with tools for a local workshop. I somewhat collect waterstones. I enjoy playing around with different stones. Here is my take on the subject:

First of all, any reputable brand- Naniwa, Suehiro, Shapton, King, even Norton, and others- will get you good results. The differences are in cutting speed, hardness, fineness of slurry, trueness of grit... I could go on, but in general they will still yield good results.

Shapton makes a very nice stone. The Shapton Glass is probably the best "bang for your buck" deal out there. They cut fast and leave a fine edge. The main drawback is that they don't make a very "muddy" slurry. I prefer a softer stone that makes a slurry, but I own and use a full set of Shapton Glass. The best thing is they do not need soaking. They are splash and go.

Shapton Pro and Naniwa Professional (in Japan they are Chosera) are excellent stones. There are differences, but overall great stones and I will not split hairs (no pun intended!) over the differences in this thread.

Norton makes a great entry set. It is what I started with because I was an oil stone guy wanting to try waterstones and didn't want to spend a lot of money, but wanted something reputable. The set they offer with 220, 1000, 4000, and 8000 is a perfect starter. The 220 isn't very fast cutting for the grit, and the 8000 is very soft, but they work well overall. The set comes with a flattening stone. This is a MUST. You need some way to flatten them. You can use sandpaper on a flat plate (i.e. One made specifically for flattening) but I am against using sandpaper for flattening stones due to grit contamination. That said- it's another splitting hairs thing. It's not the end of the world if you get a little grit in your stone, but it is wrong, so just get a flattening stone or spend $$$$ for a DMT dia-sharp. Mine is many years old and still going strong.

Suehiro Gokumyo stones- excellent, and the price goes with it. They make a lower priced "Cerax" stone. I have not tried it.
King- great entry stone. I find them to be "gritty" feeling.
Sigma gets a good review but I have not personally tried them.

Only a few of the many options.


As for grit, I always say spend the most money on your finishing stone- 8000 grit or higher. On a budget, 5000 will do just fine, but get the best one you can afford. The finishing stone is the one that matters most. I recommend getting a good 8k, 4K, 1k or similar range to start. If you can afford it, get a coarse stone 400 or less for tending to chipped blades, flattening backs, and setting bevels. Sandpaper will get you by until you can afford a coarse stone. The difference is the waterstones leave a finer finish with shallower scratch pattern that is easier to polish out with each grit progression.

Whatever you choose, remember- if it gets the tool sharp enough to leave a smooth finish, then you have achieved your goal regardless of what method you chose. Don't worry too much over the nit-picking details of microscopic scratch patterns. Just get started and eventually you will get a feel for waterstones, and things that I won't try to sell you on now will suddenly make more sense. It's the old learning to ride a tricycle before riding a bike analogy. Get a decent stone from a reputable manufacturer and start playing around with it. When you start longing for a finer finish, then move up, and then things like "the feel of the stone" will make more sense.

[ken hatch]

Synthetic water stones have their uses such as sharpening A2 steel but are a PITA to use. If you are using O1 steel natural stones, oil or water, are better. But whatever type stone you pick all that is needed are two stones (course and fine) and a strop. BTW, I watched the video and there are better folks to learn from. One of the funny parts of the video was his statement about needing to sharpen freehand but then used a jig, nothing wrong with using a jig just action did match verbiage.

If you would like to watch a video of someone who is a good teacher and knows what he is doing look up The English Woodworker's series on sharpening. Richard is very good.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

As mentioned above, there are tons of threads on this. Here is just one:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?209543-Need-a-Sharpening-System-Recommendation/page2

In it my suggestion is to check Tools from Japan dot com:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667&zenid=ff6f86806f70471a1f8d6773c014f964

If it was my position to be purchasing stones today, this would likely be the set.

For rough work on buggered blades my first step is with rough sandpaper. Water stones below 1000 grit haven't worked well for me.

jtk

[William Fretwell]

Japanese master craftsmen claim to spend almost as much time sharpening their tools as using them. That gives you an idea of what you have to expect. Most opt for Japanese water stones. Take comfort in that you will get a working edge quickly. Explore your methods, use a magnifying glass and 01 tool steel for practice, you will learn faster.
Don't start with a thick A2 plane blade! Chisels are a good place to start. Remember in principle sharpening is simple, the practice, knowing when to move stones, and remembering there are two faces to an edge is harder. A very good sharpening system may only cost $400 but it won't be much less.

[David Eisenhauer]

I use three Sigma Pro Waterstones (from Tools From Japan) to sharpen O-1 and A-2 - 1000#, 6,000# and (not every time) 13,000#. I use a bench grinder or sand paper on glass for rough shaping, then gravitate to some diamond plates for further less-rough shaping. After the initial back flattening or rough shaping (as in a chip removal or initial profiling), I usually never need to drop down from the 1,000# stone, and, quite regularly, just need to do a quick touchup on a chisel (while working) with the 6,000# alone. Maybe a quick three-four passes on the 13,000#, maybe not. I use a DMT diamond plate for flattening the stones during use. The stones were not cheap, but they are wearing at an acceptable rate (can't ever see wearing out the 13,000#, maybe not even the 6,000#. 1,000# can be eventually worn down over the years if I don't use the bench grinder for the initial edge profile). That works for me. Others will use other stones and they work well for them.

[Stanley Covington]

There are, as already stated, 100 times as many opinions on this as there are waterstones. I now sharpen knives for top local chefs along with tools for a local workshop. I somewhat collect waterstones. I enjoy playing around with different stones. Here is my take on the subject:

First of all, any reputable brand- Naniwa, Suehiro, Shapton, King, even Norton, and others- will get you good results. The differences are in cutting speed, hardness, fineness of slurry, trueness of grit... I could go on, but in general they will still yield good results.

Shapton makes a very nice stone. The Shapton Glass is probably the best "bang for your buck" deal out there. They cut fast and leave a fine edge. The main drawback is that they don't make a very "muddy" slurry. I prefer a softer stone that makes a slurry, but I own and use a full set of Shapton Glass. The best thing is they do not need soaking. They are splash and go.

Shapton Pro and Naniwa Professional (in Japan they are Chosera) are excellent stones. There are differences, but overall great stones and I will not split hairs (no pun intended!) over the differences in this thread.

Norton makes a great entry set. It is what I started with because I was an oil stone guy wanting to try waterstones and didn't want to spend a lot of money, but wanted something reputable. The set they offer with 220, 1000, 4000, and 8000 is a perfect starter. The 220 isn't very fast cutting for the grit, and the 8000 is very soft, but they work well overall. The set comes with a flattening stone. This is a MUST. You need some way to flatten them. You can use sandpaper on a flat plate (i.e. One made specifically for flattening) but I am against using sandpaper for flattening stones due to grit contamination. That said- it's another splitting hairs thing. It's not the end of the world if you get a little grit in your stone, but it is wrong, so just get a flattening stone or spend $$$$ for a DMT dia-sharp. Mine is many years old and still going strong.

Suehiro Gokumyo stones- excellent, and the price goes with it. They make a lower priced "Cerax" stone. I have not tried it.
King- great entry stone. I find them to be "gritty" feeling.
Sigma gets a good review but I have not personally tried them.

Only a few of the many options.


As for grit, I always say spend the most money on your finishing stone- 8000 grit or higher. On a budget, 5000 will do just fine, but get the best one you can afford. The finishing stone is the one that matters most. I recommend getting a good 8k, 4K, 1k or similar range to start. If you can afford it, get a coarse stone 400 or less for tending to chipped blades, flattening backs, and setting bevels. Sandpaper will get you by until you can afford a coarse stone. The difference is the waterstones leave a finer finish with shallower scratch pattern that is easier to polish out with each grit progression.

Whatever you choose, remember- if it gets the tool sharp enough to leave a smooth finish, then you have achieved your goal regardless of what method you chose. Don't worry too much over the nit-picking details of microscopic scratch patterns. Just get started and eventually you will get a feel for waterstones, and things that I won't try to sell you on now will suddenly make more sense. It's the old learning to ride a tricycle before riding a bike analogy. Get a decent stone from a reputable manufacturer and start playing around with it. When you start longing for a finer finish, then move up, and then things like "the feel of the stone" will make more sense.

I think Malcom has written an excellent response. He is obviously a professional, no-nonsense kinda guy. Allow me to comment on two points.

I agree whole heartedly with Malcom's last paragraph.

My first point of disagreement, however, is more of a different point of view rather than performance. I disagree that the most important stone in one's lineup is the finishing stone. It is rather, IMO, the roughest grit stone because this is the one that shapes the edge. If the edge of your blade is rounded and curved and uneven as a result of using bad rough stones, the medium-grit stones will be wasted, along with your time, and you will find it difficult to get a decent edge with even the very best finishing stone.

In the past I scoffed at diamond plates, but a few years ago I had some come-to-Jesus conversations with professional sharpeners here in Japan, and as a result, was convinced to use diamond plates in place of carborundum stones. What I have learned since then is that, compared to carborundum stones, diamond plates are more efficient at removing a lot of metal quickly without rounding over a blade's bevel or corners. They simply cut more aggressively, stay flat even when a lot of pressure is applied, and don't round the bevel or round over the corners of the blade as badly. Learning to use a rough stone to properly shape the cutting edge is the first step in effective sharpening IMO. Diamond plates make this job easier and more efficient. Time is money.

I do agree wholeheartedly with Malcom's point that the finishing stone is the one to spend the most money on since the finish it leaves it what touches the wood.

My second point is also something I learned from professional sharpeners here in Japan. The Sharpton glass waterstones are not used by the professionals in Japan that I know. Every chance I get I ask them why they don't use them. So far they have all replied that they have tried them, but found that they wore out too quickly, and that natural stones were more cost effective for finishing purposes. In this case, efficiency is defined as the cost of stones consumed vs the number of blades sharpened. Professional sharpeners are paid by the blade and not the hour, and sharpen hundreds of blades a week. They are also focused like a laser on the appearance of the finished blade. Therefore, they of necessity track the cost of stones against the number of blades sharpened.

Two cents.

Stan

[Kevin Jenness]

"but I never could sharpen no knife
like the ones that give the advice"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8YyDyap7wI

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I think Malcom has written an excellent response. He is obviously a professional, no-nonsense kinda guy. Allow me to comment on two points.

I agree whole heartedly with Malcom's last paragraph.

My first point of disagreement, however, is more of a different point of view rather than performance. I disagree that the most important stone in one's lineup is the finishing stone. It is rather, IMO, the roughest grit stone because this is the one that shapes the edge. If the edge of your blade is rounded and curved and uneven as a result of using bad rough stones, the medium-grit stones will be wasted, along with your time, and you will find it difficult to get a decent edge with even the very best finishing stone.

In the past I scoffed at diamond plates, but a few years ago I had some come-to-Jesus conversations with professional sharpeners here in Japan, and as a result, was convinced to use diamond plates in place of carborundum stones. What I have learned since then is that, compared to carborundum stones, diamond plates are more efficient at removing a lot of metal quickly without rounding over a blade's bevel or corners. They simply cut more aggressively, stay flat even when a lot of pressure is applied, and don't round the bevel or round over the corners of the blade as badly. Learning to use a rough stone to properly shape the cutting edge is the first step in effective sharpening IMO. Diamond plates make this job easier and more efficient. Time is money.

I do agree wholeheartedly with Malcom's point that the finishing stone is the one to spend the most money on since the finish it leaves it what touches the wood.

My second point is also something I learned from professional sharpeners here in Japan. The Sharpton glass waterstones are not used by the professionals in Japan that I know. Every chance I get I ask them why they don't use them. So far they have all replied that they have tried them, but found that they wore out too quickly, and that natural stones were more cost effective for finishing purposes. In this case, efficiency is defined as the cost of stones consumed vs the number of blades sharpened. Professional sharpeners are paid by the blade and not the hour, and sharpen hundreds of blades a week. They are also focused like a laser on the appearance of the finished blade. Therefore, they of necessity track the cost of stones against the number of blades sharpened.

Two cents.

Stan


points well taken, and thanks for the comments. Do you find natural stones much cheaper in Japan? (Buying in person rather than online retailers). Your comment on Shapton Glass suggests a similar cost. If I could get natural stones for the cost of Shaptons I would be a happy man! I wish plane tickets were not so costly- I would love to go shop in person for natural stones.

[Robert Engel]

Samuel,

I like the Samurai's stuff, but his set up is over the top to me. I use the wood stone pond Frank Klauzs demonstrates. Kinda neat to do the boatsman's joint, too.

I prefer diamond plates for the coarser grits because they do not need to be flattened and remove material quickly.
For the higher grits, I use a 4000/8000 combo water stone (Norton). I follow with a strop.

[bridger berdel]

some of those guys are dead-solid seriously wrapped way too tight when it comes to sharpening discussions.

.................. Ya think?

[Samuel Green]

Wow! This is a lot of very good information. If I could reply all to everyone who responded I would. Thank you all so much for the advice. Time to do some research and make a selection! Ill let you guys know what I decide.


There are, as already stated, 100 times as many opinions on this as there are waterstones. I now sharpen knives for top local chefs along with tools for a local workshop. I somewhat collect waterstones. I enjoy playing around with different stones. Here is my take on the subject:

First of all, any reputable brand- Naniwa, Suehiro, Shapton, King, even Norton, and others- will get you good results. The differences are in cutting speed, hardness, fineness of slurry, trueness of grit... I could go on, but in general they will still yield good results.

Shapton makes a very nice stone. The Shapton Glass is probably the best "bang for your buck" deal out there. They cut fast and leave a fine edge. The main drawback is that they don't make a very "muddy" slurry. I prefer a softer stone that makes a slurry, but I own and use a full set of Shapton Glass. The best thing is they do not need soaking. They are splash and go.

Shapton Pro and Naniwa Professional (in Japan they are Chosera) are excellent stones. There are differences, but overall great stones and I will not split hairs (no pun intended!) over the differences in this thread.

Norton makes a great entry set. It is what I started with because I was an oil stone guy wanting to try waterstones and didn't want to spend a lot of money, but wanted something reputable. The set they offer with 220, 1000, 4000, and 8000 is a perfect starter. The 220 isn't very fast cutting for the grit, and the 8000 is very soft, but they work well overall. The set comes with a flattening stone. This is a MUST. You need some way to flatten them. You can use sandpaper on a flat plate (i.e. One made specifically for flattening) but I am against using sandpaper for flattening stones due to grit contamination. That said- it's another splitting hairs thing. It's not the end of the world if you get a little grit in your stone, but it is wrong, so just get a flattening stone or spend $$$$ for a DMT dia-sharp. Mine is many years old and still going strong.

Suehiro Gokumyo stones- excellent, and the price goes with it. They make a lower priced "Cerax" stone. I have not tried it.
King- great entry stone. I find them to be "gritty" feeling.
Sigma gets a good review but I have not personally tried them.

Only a few of the many options.


As for grit, I always say spend the most money on your finishing stone- 8000 grit or higher. On a budget, 5000 will do just fine, but get the best one you can afford. The finishing stone is the one that matters most. I recommend getting a good 8k, 4K, 1k or similar range to start. If you can afford it, get a coarse stone 400 or less for tending to chipped blades, flattening backs, and setting bevels. Sandpaper will get you by until you can afford a coarse stone. The difference is the waterstones leave a finer finish with shallower scratch pattern that is easier to polish out with each grit progression.

Whatever you choose, remember- if it gets the tool sharp enough to leave a smooth finish, then you have achieved your goal regardless of what method you chose. Don't worry too much over the nit-picking details of microscopic scratch patterns. Just get started and eventually you will get a feel for waterstones, and things that I won't try to sell you on now will suddenly make more sense. It's the old learning to ride a tricycle before riding a bike analogy. Get a decent stone from a reputable manufacturer and start playing around with it. When you start longing for a finer finish, then move up, and then things like "the feel of the stone" will make more sense.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Where do you live Samuel? Maybe you can drop by a member's shop and check the feel of a few. What one person likes, another may not. Also, some stones work better on some steels, especially if it is one of the harder modern steels. I don't have any of those, so, I cannot comment.

I only know what I use most and the reasons that I use them. For example, I usually use Norton glass stones because I do not need to soak them and they stay pretty flat for my uses. From the staying flat perspective, might be even better off with one of the spyder stones or a natural oil stone.

I won't mention any more now, other than to say that you might prefer a hard stone, and you might prefer a soft stone, only testing them will tell.

[andy bessette]

"Maybe you can drop by a member's shop and check the feel of a few."

Something I don't recall being mentioned is that water stones are much more easily damaged. So I would not be inclined to offer mine for a trial run to someone whose skills are uncertain.

[Stanley Covington]

points well taken, and thanks for the comments. Do you find natural stones much cheaper in Japan? (Buying in person rather than online retailers). Your comment on Shapton Glass suggests a similar cost. If I could get natural stones for the cost of Shaptons I would be a happy man! I wish plane tickets were not so costly- I would love to go shop in person for natural stones.

Malcom:

I have never bought a natural stone except in person. Buying one mail order would be nerve wracking! I have never compared costs for stones outside of Japan.

Yes, my point was that natural stones are cheaper than Shapton glass stones.

When appearance is not an issue, a cheaper synthetic stone of 6,000 to 8,000 or at most 10,000 grit will create a very adequate edge IMO without the Shapton glass stone expense.

But in your business, appearance is probably important.

Stan