About Table Saws

[Paul K. Johnson]

I'm working this all out and have been thinking about it for several years. I've considered the PM1000 but I'm afraid I might regret not going with a 3 hp machine. All I've ever used is my DeWalt contractor saw and several miniature table saws meant for model-builders including a Microlux and a Byrnes.

So now I'm looking at Grizzly saws. Wood is a lot more expensive if I have sawyers thickness it for me instead of buying thicker wood. I got about 1/4 what I would have gotten for the same price last time I ordered so I'm not doing that again.

An electrician is coming by Monday morning to give me an estimate on putting 220 in my shop. I'll need an additional panel because my current one is completely used.

Anyway, that's just background. I'm not really asking for advice on any of that. But I always get advice on everything I didn't ask about anyway so advise away if you feel like it.

My real question is this. I have a router table that's huge. If I get a real cabinet saw something has to go. I could free up a lot of space getting rid of the router table. But it's a necessary tool for my business.

So I'd like a router extension on the table saw. But I like working from the end, not the side, when I'm routing. I also only want to have one fence - my Incra. I have two incra fences actually - one for a table saw that's still in the box and the other on my router table.

I know I can't put a router extension on the left side of the table but I'm wondering if I can mount it to an extension on the left side. I understand most people would just say mount it on the right but that gives me fence issues. And I like working from the end so the router fence would move opposite the table saw fence. I mean it would have to mount 180 degrees from the table saw fence for me to work the way I like.

So the issues I see with what I want is supporting those extensions on the left and remaining mobile. I have a buddy who will happily weld an angle-iron base for me with all the casters I want.

My shop is small and narrow so I have to turn the saw 90 degrees to make rips over 2' long.

So I guess I'm saying I know what I want to do. Does anybody see any reason why it will be an exceptionally bad/dangerous/irritating solution?

Thanks!

[Steve Demuth]

Can you explain the fence issue you see with a right-mounted router table?

[Paul K. Johnson]

Can you explain the fence issue you see with a right-mounted router table?

Sure. I'm standing at the end of the table - 90 degrees to where I'd be standing if I'm using the saw. I want the fence to come toward me so it's just like the table saw fence but it moves away from the blade and toward me on the right side of the table.

That won't work with an Incra fence because of the way it mounts. It would work fine with a regular fence which can be used on either side.

Just imagine the incra mounted on the left side of the blade and moving to the right. I guess I could set up a second mount and just remove the fence I'm not using. I've never set up their table saw fence so I only have a general idea of how it mounts.

[scott spencer]

Not sure I can answer your RT questions, but I do think it'd be much simpler to have a separate router fence....not only handier, but just a simpler setup overall.

Regarding your TS, if you do install 220v, I'd absolutely go with 3hp over a 120v motor...the increase is substantial and noticeable, not to mention that the machines that house true 3hp motors are generally much more robust under the hood than a 120v saw. I realize the categories get blurred these days, but I view the PM1000 as a top notch hybrid with cabinet mounted trunnions more than a true industrial cabinet saw...it's very different under the hood than a PM2000, even though they appear very similar externally. While a PM1000 may arguably have better fit and finish than a Grizzly, a G1023R series or G0690 are a step up in class to industrial cabinet saws, and have more robust underpinnings and more mass, not to mention 70%+ more horsepower.

If you go with 220v, you'd be a prime candidate for a good used cabinet saw since you already have an Incra fence....kinda hate to see you buy a new saw, and waste the stock fence, but I suppose you could sell the stock fence to offset cost.

[Paul K. Johnson]

I'm with you on the wasted fence. Before I buy a saw I plan to contact the seller and ask if I can buy it without. I'm pretty sure they'll all say no because it's a package deal or something like that.

I don't need a large table - 30 inch rip is all I need. Anything larger I can just cut with my track saw. I have no plan to ever build furniture where I need large, very accurate panels. Mostly the largest stuff I'll build will be utility benches where close enough is good enough.

It's my small stuff that needs to be deadly accurate. That's why I have the Byrnes with the micrometer fence.

I've never had much luck with anything I bought used. Usually there's an expensive repair in a month or two that I didn't see when I bought it. I'd rather pay more for new and have an actual warranty.

I am leaning toward the Grizzly. They have a 5 hp with a router table but the table is kind of lame. It won't take a router plate or a lift. So I would probably not use it and add a third party router extension table if I were to purchase that saw.

I don't think I need 5 hp though. The thickest I'll be ripping would be 9/4 hard maple and that would be unusual. Mostly I work in thicknesses of 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 and of course 3/4 boards that I can get locally (which means I didn't plan ahead and buy from a real sawyer) so now I'm wasting money at the home improvement for red oak which is the worst wood ever.

[Michelle Rich]

I have had a router set up on the left for 25 yrs..I don't understand your concern. Works great for me. I have a fence like an incra, and just slide it over and use as my router fence.

[Paul K. Johnson]

Everyone tells me I can't put the router on the left of a left-tilt saw because of the motor. That's why I'm thinking I need an extension table between the saw table and the router table extensions.

[scott spencer]

Everyone tells me I can't put the router on the left of a left-tilt saw because of the motor. That's why I'm thinking I need an extension table between the saw table and the router table extensions.

If you add the router table to the left extension, the router should clear the motor cover, but you'd probably need to remove the router to open the door. FWIW, not all left tilt saws have the motor on the left....just most. The newer Laguna Platinum is among the left tilt saws that have a right side motor cover, but the older Platinum was just like the G0690.

Also, if you have the electrical supply circuit to handle it, I'm sure 5hp would make child's play out of heavy ripping, but for hobby use 3hp has never remotely seemed insufficient to me, though 1.75hp may on occasion.

[Paul K. Johnson]

This is what I make that I sell. But I start with 8/4 lumber.

http://www.airfieldmodels.com/store/magnetic_fixture_system_2/how_vertical_presses_are_made.htm

http://www.airfieldmodels.com/store/magnetic_fixture_system_2/how_fixures_are_made.htm

So mostly I'm cutting 3/16 baltic birch and hardwood to 3/8 x 1/2. But I do a lot of other stuff as a hobby.

[Paul K. Johnson]

I've been looking at a Laguna for a while as well and it's actually the one I settled on before I saw the Grizzly saws. The only problem I see with Laguna is that it has a wide table that would make the saw too large. The other option is to go with the 110 version and the 30" capacity.

The 4 hp looks good. It costs a lot more and has too wide of a table. I can call them and ask if I can get with 30" instead of 50".

[glenn bradley]

I've always had mine on the left and for the life of me cannot understand why you would put one on the right. Even if the right side is clear so you can stand at the router table facing the fence, the feed direction is opposite the tablesaw so you have to keep both areas open.

Some folks with the RT on the right reach over their saw to run the material against a router fence that places the material between the bit and the tablesaw blade; this method I do not get at all; how awkward . . . but, we are all different. Can a mounting location be designed so that you can shift your Incra fence to the left to use it with a left mounted router table?

Here's my rig from 8 years ago on a hybrid. The router table is in the same location bolted to my Saw stop today.

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With the router table feed matching the tablesaw feed, all my material holding jigs can go from one to the other without issue. My outfeed support serves both and I gain surface area for both tools.

[Terry Therneau]

I have an incra fence that I move to multiple spots. The mount is bolted to a bit of plywood, and on the plywood are two miter track fixtures: the same kind that hold a fingerboard in position. I find that it works well. I have a delta HD shaper with a router table next to it, tops bolted together, and the pair of them are a nice wide outfeed for the unisaw. When using the router table the Incra is mounted in the shaper miter slot and vice versa when using the shaper. It's very solid, and I can move or remove it in a trice. (I have a dust hose connection on both ends of the wonderfence on the incra, with a cap over one. The dust hose drops down from the ceiling and is easier to hook to whichever is the westmost end.)

Terry T.

[Ray Selinger]

I put my router on the right side of my Unisaw wing. I have long bar so I added a slot and use my Unifence against the router fence.

[rudy de haas]

You may come to deeply regret giving up the independent router table. Mounting the router on the saw table works well for many people but you won't find it as nice as having independent devices. My "shop" is also small (long single car garage the car has to go into at night) so I have everything on wheels and just shoved against one end at night. it takes about 10 minutes to put things were I want them for use, and another 10 to put them away again - but everything works.
One note: good wheels are important for this - if you do this, don't cheap out on them.

[Chris Hachet]

Router could go either side IMHO, I like Incra fences and own one myself. If it were my money I would buy the
Grizzly 1023 and never ever look back.

[Patrick Lesher]

I have a Sawstop and Incra TS/LS on the right side of the blade. When I want to use the router I flip the Inca around the other direction which takes a couple minutes at the most.
The 3HP is great choice if you can do the 220v.

[Paul K. Johnson]

You may come to deeply regret giving up the independent router table. Mounting the router on the saw table works well for many people but you won't find it as nice as having independent devices. My "shop" is also small (long single car garage the car has to go into at night) so I have everything on wheels and just shoved against one end at night. it takes about 10 minutes to put things were I want them for use, and another 10 to put them away again - but everything works.
One note: good wheels are important for this - if you do this, don't cheap out on them.

I'm so over-crowded that I sleep in my living room. Other occupants of my living room include a DeWalt thickness planer, a Craftsman jointer, a Makita chop saw with stand, all my wood including about 20 3/4" sheets of ply, melamine, etc. and two cats.

I would be much more inclined to keep the router table but the top is bowed. The top is really thick MDF with some kind of golf-ball skin laminate. The bow causes me all kinds of problems so if I keep a router table I still need to build a new one.

It has to be huge to mount the Incra fence. A smaller, more standard sized table would need some kind of extension to mount the fence which would make the table just as big as what I've got.

But yes, you're right. I don't like multi-purpose tools very much. I would never buy a printer/scanner/fax for example. If one breaks then you lose all those functions while it gets repaired. More likely for me is I wouldn't get it repaired and buy either the unit that broke or a whole new multi-unit.

Edit: Yes, I use very good casters. I really like the total lock type because if you just have a brake the tool can still swivel which is very annoying and probably dangerous.

[Paul K. Johnson]

I have a Sawstop and Incra TS/LS on the right side of the blade. When I want to use the router I flip the Inca around the other direction which takes a couple minutes at the most.
The 3HP is great choice if you can do the 220v.

That may be the best way to go. Then I get more support on the right without having to add extensions to the left which make the saw 9 feet wide. :) My shop is 10' x 30' and there is stuff all along both walls. I have about 4' of walking space down the middle (between my workbench and the garage door).

[Steve Cowart]

I have the PM1000 with a Bench Dog table extension on the right side. I built a cabinet to put the entire assembly on one mobile platform with wheels and drawers for my bits and other tools. It includes dust collection and works GREAT. If I had all to do over I would exactly the same thing. I have cut 3" hard maple on many occasions and 3" IPE, no problem.

I had an older JoinTech router fence and I made a base that has lips on the front and back and one that sits in the Miter track on the saw. then I just mounted the fence on that. The entire assembly can be easily placed on the saw in a few seconds. It gives me a much better fence with a vacuum attachment. I just pull the hose off the Table saw dust guard and move it over to the router fence. If the bit is captured in the wood I still have the option to just use the table saw fence.

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[Paul K. Johnson]

OK, electrician just left. He said I'd have to upgrade the service into the home which is more bucks than I'm willing to spend on a place that I rent. So he said if I bought a 10-wire extension cord he would assemble it to plug into my dryer outlet and to my saw for basically free.

Not an elegant solution but it does allow me to buy a more powerful saw so I guess that's what I'm doing.

I have to get my tax stuff to my accountant and figure out what I owe and see what's left. I'll have enough for any saw I've discussed but then there's extension tables and mobility. It might almost be worth getting the PM 2000 because it already has wheels. Well, not really. A $1,500 saw won't become $3,000 just getting or making a mobile base for it. I figure $100 plus if I buy angle iron from Lowe's or Home Depot and my buddy will weld it for me. I can cut it to finished length so it's ready to weld.

[Paul K. Johnson]

This is the base I made for my Dewalt. The interior frame is all 2 x 6. It's on 4 casters - the front two are total lock. It's VERY easy to roll around and very heavy. I did everything I could within reason to make it as heavy as possible.

I bought this saw because of the top. A lot of contractor saws have grate-type tops and I make a lot of small parts that would constantly be getting hung up. That would be a safety issue and a major irritant.

The problem with this saw is that the fence has too much play. When I move it in it's out of alignment with the front closer to the blade than the back. When I move the fence out it's just the opposite. So all fence adjustments have to be made by moving the fence out, then back in and locking it. I got it as parallel as I could when moving the fence in.

It's been a very reliable saw otherwise and I'd love it if not for that. That's why I bought the Incra fence. But I don't have room for 6' rails. I can make room if I get rid of the router table and incorporate it into the saw.

If I do that then I'll have about 18" at one end of the saw where I can get around it.

So yeah, I also need a bigger shop. :)

I appreciate everyone's input so far. It's helped a lot.

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[Paul K. Johnson]

This is the interior before it got covered up.

As you can see, two rods support the extension table. They get pulled out completely to fold the table down.

Obviously not a work of art but much better dust collection and it's not on the rickety X-base it came with. I don't have to pick up the saw, move it, move the base, then put the saw back on. I just roll it where I want it.

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[Paul K. Johnson]

I have the PM1000 with a Bench Dog table extension on the right side. I built a cabinet to put the entire assembly on one mobile platform with wheels and drawers for my bits and other tools. It includes dust collection and works GREAT. If I had all to do over I would exactly the same thing. I have cut 3" hard maple on many occasions and 3" IPE, no problem.


So you're saying I wouldn't regret purchasing a 1.75 HP saw.

[Paul K. Johnson]

This is the saw. I looked but I guess I never took any photos of it mounted to the base.

One other problem with the saw - the blade lift screw get covered with sawdust in about a month and it's next to impossible to raise the blade. So I have to unbolt the saw, clean up the bolt and put it back together. I've tried T-Shield and various dry-lubes and nothing has helped. It's not a good design. Blade tilt is hard to use with any accuracy as well.


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[Chris Hachet]

This is the saw. I looked but I guess I never took any photos of it mounted to the base.

One other problem with the saw - the blade lift screw get covered with sawdust in about a month and it's next to impossible to raise the blade. So I have to unbolt the saw, clean up the bolt and put it back together. I've tried T-Shield and various dry-lubes and nothing has helped. It's not a good design. Blade tilt is hard to use with any accuracy as well.


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A cabinet saw will be an enormous upgrade from that.

[Steve Cowart]

So you're saying I wouldn't regret purchasing a 1.75 HP saw.

That is correct. I can certainly see the need for more in a production environment, or if you constantly cut thick hardwood, but there is definitely a cost involved.

I wanted the flexibility to operate at 120 or 240 volt. I also am VERY pleased with the accuracy of the saw and since I always keep my blades sharp, I have no problem occasionally cutting thru 3" of hardwood. ESPECIALLY since I have invested in a good band saw for re-sawing. It also saved me about $1100.

[Adam Merritt]

I just went through this exact decision making progress (and haven't honestly come to a full conclusion). I received my new SawStop PCS31230 on 3/8, my Incra TS-LS Joinery package on 3/9, and left on 3/10 for vacation; time to set things up has been scarce! Anyways, when I stopped in at Incra (they are 10 minutes from my office) to pick up my tS-LS package, I talked with Perry McDaniel about several mounting options. He personally likes the router table to the left so you can use it head on (90 degrees from the table saw usage side) or from the table saw side. I liked this as well, but brought up the left mounted motor issue. We came to the conclusion that I could mount my router table insert (cast iron) to the left of the SawStop extension, but that I should add legs to support the extra weight so far away from the main table (and this would also help counter some of the Incra weight on the far right). If I mounted it to the right of the saw, he would recommend mounting it directly to the SawStop table and then perhaps mounting the 12'' SawStop extension to that, so the router table would have more support for the additional weight hanging from it, but this would basically eliminate using it head-on. I had planned to try and use their router table mounting kit, but he suggested using their big L shaped rail mounts instead (and told me the TS-LS package came with three sets, but only two were needed to mount it, saving me a purchase). I'm trying to choose between two different lifts, but hope to make a decision in the next day or two and order the lift and table together. Until then, I can keep debating how to mount it.

[Paul K. Johnson]

I really wish I'd purchased the Incra lift. I'm REALLY aggravated with the plastic rings in most lifts. They are not dead flush with the plate. The Incra has metal rings and if it's the same quality as the rest of the stuff they make I'd guess the rings are flush with the router plate.

I've never seen the Incra lift in person so I could be wrong.

[Paul K. Johnson]

A cabinet saw will be an enormous upgrade from that.

My yellow plastic saw cabinet will not stand for aspersions cast its way. It feels it's the finest saw ever crafted.

[Adam Merritt]

The Incra rings are of nice quality and sit flush. I took a look while I was there. I'm really wanting either the Next Wave Automation Ready2Lift or MLCS Powerlift Pro, otherwise I would buy the Incra without hesitation. Ready2Lift does have metal inserts (Incra knock-off), but it is priced higher.

[scott spencer]

There's no way any of us can know what purchase you might regret or not regret. All the saws mentioned are nice upgrades from a portable. My 1.75hp and 2hp saws were capable of cutting to full blade height, but you had to have the correct blade, flat lumber, and proceed at a pace the saw could handle....it's not hard to bog down a motor of that size. A 3hp+ motor will allow you to dictate the pace, and it's much harder to bog down. Which saw you'll be happier with, I can't accurately predict, but can say that most people don't regret having more power or more capacity if the tool fits the shop and budget.

[Paul K. Johnson]

Well, I looked at my shop and I may regret buying a cabinet saw at all. I really just don't have the room for one unless I don't put any extensions on it. I've worked on shop organization since day 1 and as much as I look at it I just don't see how to create a table saw space without getting rid of something I actually need.

I think I'll have about 12" between the saw and a workbench that can't go anywhere else. That means me squeezing between that space multiple times a day.

All that said, I'm looking at the Grizzly 690 and 1023. Seems like it's a pretty popular debate. I've already read about 10 different threads of folks comparing the two saws. Bottom line is the con census is a person would be happy with either one.

So it's this: http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3-HP-240V-Cabinet-Left-Tilting-Table-Saw/G1023RL

Or this: http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Riving-Knife/G0690

[Nick Decker]

I really wish I'd purchased the Incra lift. I'm REALLY aggravated with the plastic rings in most lifts. They are not dead flush with the plate. The Incra has metal rings and if it's the same quality as the rest of the stuff they make I'd guess the rings are flush with the router plate.

I've never seen the Incra lift in person so I could be wrong.

Just a note on the Incra magnetic rings: They can be adjusted with set screws to get them perfectly flush. They're not all exactly the same thickness, so that's a good thing. Easy to do, so not a big deal, but I find myself adjusting whenever I change inserts.

[Paul K. Johnson]

Thanks for that info, Nick. I'm pretty sure I'm going to upgrade to the Incra lift even though I already have an expensive Woodpecker's lift. I just hate those plastic rings. I just didn't know enough about the Incra to know if it was worth it. If the rings can't be flushed easily enough that I'd actually do it then I'd be spending a whole lot of money and not resolve any problems.

I've also decided I'm going to bite the bullet on a table saw. I'm just tired of inaccuracy and under-power of the one I have now. I have no idea how I'll fit it in my shop but I'll find a way.

[andy bessette]

I built a router table out of an old cast iron table saw top and mounted it to the right side of my Unisaw; there is a sliding table track on the left side.

Recommend a bandsaw for resawing and that you find a quality used table saw, rather than a cheap new one.

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/yo-andrew/shop-1_zpswjliawky.jpg

[Chris Hachet]

My yellow plastic saw cabinet will not stand for aspersions cast its way. It feels it's the finest saw ever crafted.

I love a tool with attitude! I will buy the saw a craft beer from a micro brewery if I am ever in town....

[Chris Hachet]

Well, I looked at my shop and I may regret buying a cabinet saw at all. I really just don't have the room for one unless I don't put any extensions on it. I've worked on shop organization since day 1 and as much as I look at it I just don't see how to create a table saw space without getting rid of something I actually need.

I think I'll have about 12" between the saw and a workbench that can't go anywhere else. That means me squeezing between that space multiple times a day.

All that said, I'm looking at the Grizzly 690 and 1023. Seems like it's a pretty popular debate. I've already read about 10 different threads of folks comparing the two saws. Bottom line is the con census is a person would be happy with either one.

So it's this: http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3-HP-240V-Cabinet-Left-Tilting-Table-Saw/G1023RL

Or this: http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Riving-Knife/G0690Dollar for dollar hard to go wrong. I bought a vintage Unsiaw but I got lucky enough to find a vintage saw in good working order five minutes from where my wife works. Had I not gotten that, I surely would not mind either Grizzly saw in my work shop.

...and you have my infinite sympathy on space. I work in a two car attached garage, one can never have enough...

[Paul K. Johnson]

I love a tool with attitude! I will buy the saw a craft beer from a micro brewery if I am ever in town....

I'll let it know. It never holds a grudge for very long and is a fan of good beer.

[Chris Hachet]

I really wish I'd purchased the Incra lift. I'm REALLY aggravated with the plastic rings in most lifts. They are not dead flush with the plate. The Incra has metal rings and if it's the same quality as the rest of the stuff they make I'd guess the rings are flush with the router plate.

I've never seen the Incra lift in person so I could be wrong.The Incra lift is the cats posterior in terms of quality, in a good sort of way. I own one and it was about the best money I spent setting up my workshop.

[Chris Hachet]

I built a router table out of an old cast iron table saw top and mounted it to the right side of my Unisaw; there is a sliding table track on the left side.

Recommend a bandsaw for resawing and that you find a quality used table saw, rather than a cheap new one.

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/yo-andrew/shop-1_zpswjliawky.jpg

I would second this on both accounts.

[Earl McLain]

Thanks for that info, Nick. I'm pretty sure I'm going to upgrade to the Incra lift even though I already have an expensive Woodpecker's lift. I just hate those plastic rings. I just didn't know enough about the Incra to know if it was worth it. If the rings can't be flushed easily enough that I'd actually do it then I'd be spending a whole lot of money and not resolve any problems.

I've also decided I'm going to bite the bullet on a table saw. I'm just tired of inaccuracy and under-power of the one I have now. I have no idea how I'll fit it in my shop but I'll find a way.

Paul--you may want to call incra before ordering a new lift. They sell a conversion kit for the Jessem Mast-R-Lift on the Incremental site for $125, basically a new plate for the magnetic rings. I don't see one for the Woodpecker's version--but that doesn't mean they don't or can't do it. Just a thought.
earl

[Paul K. Johnson]

Thanks, Earl. I'll do that. I just spoke to the man at Incra last week because I need some parts for the Incra base on my router table. Blew up all the shims in the locking lever so I took the ones out of my new table saw fence and now I have to put the table saw fence back together. I was amazed how inexpensive the parts were so I ordered four sets.

[Paul K. Johnson]

I built a router table out of an old cast iron table saw top and mounted it to the right side of my Unisaw; there is a sliding table track on the left side.

Recommend a bandsaw for resawing and that you find a quality used table saw, rather than a cheap new one.



I will be resawing with a bandsaw. I finally found a really good resaw blade that I like.

I've looked at eBay and Craigslist over the past several years for a drill press and a table saw. I haven't seen anything that seemed that great and I need my tools to work. I don't want to spend a lot of time refurbishing them, hunting down parts, cleaning off rust, etc. And like I said previously, I like having a warranty.

[Chris Hachet]

I will be resawing with a bandsaw. I finally found a really good resaw blade that I like.

I've looked at eBay and Craigslist over the past several years for a drill press and a table saw. I haven't seen anything that seemed that great and I need my tools to work. I don't want to spend a lot of time refurbishing them, hunting down parts, cleaning off rust, etc. And like I said previously, I like having a warranty.up here table saws in decent shape are not that terribly common but drill presses are common. Sounds like you are a good candidate for the Grizzly saws.

[Paul K. Johnson]

up here table saws in decent shape are not that terribly common but drill presses are common. Sounds like you are a good candidate for the Grizzly saws.

Last year I was going to buy a rebuilt Buffalo drill press. I almost bit the bullet on that but then something happened (don't remember what) that killed my finances for a time. I was concerned about the top - it looks like it opens front to back instead of sideways. If that's how it works I'd have to roll it from it's home to change belt speeds because it would be under some shelves.

But now I'm looking at the new Nova. The problem I'm having with drill presses in general is all the slop in the rack and pinion quill and too slow of a speed. I'm drill small holes and need something that turns as fast as possible. My current drill press was crap when I bought it and I should have taken it back. It shakes like crazy any time I speed it up to about half it's max speed or higher.

I've considered a mill/drill because I'll put a compound table on the drill press anyway but it's hard to find anything with the RPM I want (3K or higher).

[Nick Stokes]

Based on lookin at your work and what you do, I think you might be a perfect candidate for that new nova drill press. Seriously.

[Paul K. Johnson]

Based on lookin at your work and what you do, I think you might be a perfect candidate for that new nova drill press. Seriously.

I'm pretty for sure that's what I'm going to get but I can only afford one tool right now and the table saw is a much higher priority. That also gives some time for reviews of the Nova to start popping up. I'm really hoping it's a quality tool.

I've looked at all the drill presses marketed to wood-workers and as far as I can tell they're mostly junk - even the "top of the line" Powermatic got some really bad reviews. I don't want to pay more for bells and whistles. I want a solid, tight drill press that works, doesn't rattle me numb, runs at speeds I need and has no slop.

Even using a backer board, the amount of slop in most quills makes the drill bit burst through the backside at the end instead of cutting the wood with the bit properly. That's because all the slop in the quill is taken up when pushing down but when there's no more resistance from the part being drilled because it's almost drilled through, the weight and pressure push through the backside. The softer the material the worse it is.

I currently have two model-builders drill press and a Craftsman floor model and they all do that because they all have a ton of slop in the rack and pinion.

[andy bessette]

...I don't want to spend a lot of time refurbishing them, hunting down parts, cleaning off rust, etc. And like I said previously, I like having a warranty.

What sort of refurbishing, hunting down parts, cleaning off rust, etc, would you expect to do on a quality used saw? And when was the last time you heard of someone making a warranty claim on a table saw?

[Paul K. Johnson]

What sort of refurbishing, hunting down parts, cleaning off rust, etc, would you expect to do on a quality used saw? And when was the last time you heard of someone making a warranty claim on a table saw?

Here's the list of problems with used equipment. Some are obviously surmountable, others not so much.

1) I don't own a truck and the only friend I have with a truck lives an hour away.
2) I have no way to lift a heavy saw into or out of a truck.
3) 95% of the used saws I've seen listed are contractor saws.
4) Every cabinet saw I've seen listed that looks good is three or more states away.
5) The saws I've seen within 100 miles are rust buckets.

Maybe you can tell me where I should be looking. I've searched eBay listings and Craigslist. I don't even know another person in real life who does any woodworking or has a table saw.

I have no idea what other people have done with their warranties but I use mine (with the exception of my drill press which I very much regret).

[Chris Hachet]

Here's the list of problems with used equipment. Some are obviously surmountable, others not so much.

1) I don't own a truck and the only friend I have with a truck lives an hour away.
2) I have no way to lift a heavy saw into or out of a truck.
3) 95% of the used saws I've seen listed are contractor saws.
4) Every cabinet saw I've seen listed that looks good is three or more states away.
5) The saws I've seen within 100 miles are rust buckets.

Maybe you can tell me where I should be looking. I've searched eBay listings and Craigslist. I don't even know another person in real life who does any woodworking or has a table saw.

I have no idea what other people have done with their warranties but I use mine (with the exception of my drill press which I very much regret).Again, there is no shame in buying new. Especially if you are in business. I am a hobbyist woodworker but I do things for neighbors and friends, and sometimes charge a modest amount. It would be much better for business if I had a shiny new 1023 Griz or the like vs a 1973 Unisaw in the center of the shop. The other thing to think about is next year or year after I am going to completely tear down my Unsiaw and rebuild it. That will be time it is out of commission. Money obviously lost for a business.

[tom lucas]

I have a Grizzly 1023RWL, left tilting. I just sold my router table and bought an extension for the left side. The Grizzly comes with a router table hole, but no way to put in a lift, and it's on the right side of the saw (might be useful as a fixed router dado setup or something). However, I went with the Excalibur router table extension because it comes with support legs. I elected to use the Milescraft DustRouter instead of a box. It works great with the incra lift/inserts, but you have to buy velcro rings for each insert ($2.50 each). The DustRouter dust collection is outstanding, and the motor is open for easy access and cooling.

Here is my extension. You can see in the second photo where I mounted the dust port, and where the door is to the table saw motor. I will have to remove the router/lift and a section of the dust hose to get to the motor. No big deal, and how often do you need to do that anyway? The Excalibur comes with a nice fence, but you can use your table saw fence too. I made the little cabinet to fit under the router, and it has a shelf on the back for the fence to stow. You can see the fence in storage behind the cabinet in the first photo. I love this setup: Requires less space, has excellent dust collection, and is highly accurate. Only drawback is that you have to remove the fence to crosscut on the table saw.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16836361_1242914462483390_7731356232700723482_o.jp g?oh=5a836b9170bb1a8f6c578ea80159888b&oe=5966FBEB

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16836386_1242914405816729_7012493374849622399_o.jp g?oh=dea77b7f290b64eecc7e78b2d700d967&oe=59275D70

[Adam Merritt]

...and you have my infinite sympathy on space. I work in a two car attached garage, one can never have enough...
I know the feeling as well. I get half of a 2.5 car garage. I hoped that by combining the router table and table saw, I would be able to justify the space. It was really hard to order the shorter rail package, but I just couldn't think of any way to make it fit otherwise. I saw someone post this picture on Reddit a while back (https://i.imgur.com/dX5UhzC.jpg). i think I can do something similar in my garage to save space (thinking of building a new workbench to store my saw under it. I have the SawStop industrial base, so it should be easy to move in and out of there). Anyways, while I dream of having a large workspace in the future, I have to make do with what I have available now.

[Chris Hachet]

I know the feeling as well. I get half of a 2.5 car garage. I hoped that by combining the router table and table saw, I would be able to justify the space. It was really hard to order the shorter rail package, but I just couldn't think of any way to make it fit otherwise. I saw someone post this picture on Reddit a while back (https://i.imgur.com/dX5UhzC.jpg). i think I can do something similar in my garage to save space (thinking of building a new workbench to store my saw under it. I have the SawStop industrial base, so it should be easy to move in and out of there). Anyways, while I dream of having a large workspace in the future, I have to make do with what I have available now.

In a lot of ways limited space is also a blessing, as you only buy what you actually need to work wood.

[Paul K. Johnson]

In a lot of ways limited space is also a blessing, as you only buy what you actually need to work wood.

Is that how it's supposed to work? I did it wrong. :)

[Chris Hachet]

Is that how it's supposed to work? I did it wrong. :)You have a successful business, methinks you are doing something very, very right.

[Earl McLain]

In a lot of ways limited space is also a blessing, as you only buy what you actually need to work wood.

No way...really??? :)
earl

[Chris Hachet]

No way...really??? :)
earlMy wife in her infinite wisdom turned me on to used machinery and Old American iron. I would own an Oliver 117 Band saw if I could...still thinking about an Oliver 192 or 232.

Life is too short, methinks.

[andy bessette]

"In a lot of ways limited space is also a blessing, as you only buy what you actually need to work wood."

Though my shop space is mostly taken up with woodworking machines its overcrowding is also due to metal working machines such as bandsaws, lathe, mill, hydraulic press, tig welder, etc.

Limited space is NOT a blessing.

[Chris Hachet]

"In a lot of ways limited space is also a blessing, as you only buy what you actually need to work wood."

Though my shop space is mostly taken up with woodworking machines its overcrowding is also due to metal working machines such as bandsaws, lathe, mill, hydraulic press, tig welder, etc.

Limited space is NOT a blessing.


See....it is a blessing...you are destined to build a second shop as a metal working shop and you will be all set.

[Jim Dwight]

I have a router table setup in an extension table on the left side of the blade of my small BT3100 table saw. I rarely use it. Instead I use my homemade router table with built in lift that is about 2 feet square. It does everything I need a router table to do. Is a smaller, while still nice, router table a possibility? I almost never use the setup in my extension table. It works but the separate table is just much nicer. I found I wanted to use the saw while it was setup for the router and vice versa.

With respect to hp, my saw has a 15A universal motor. So less power than a normal contractor saw. I can rip 3.5 inches deep in hardwood but ONLY if I use a good rip blade (I use a Freud) that is both clean and sharp. With a bigger saw, I suspect I could use the combination blade that is normally on the saw. It isn't worth it to me to be able to do these cuts without changing the blade. I've built 8 bedroom sets and a lot of other stuff on my little table saws (this isn't the first but has been used the longest). If most of your work is somewhat crude or very precise but small, I don't see why you need a 3hp motor. My projects are not consistently small and my track saw and little table saw are fine for me. I could have had 220V put in cheaply when I had my shop built but I did not because after several decades of doing this, I know I do not need a 220V tool.

[Paul K. Johnson]

Jim - It would be great if I knew someone with a 1.75 hp saw who would let me cut some of my wood. Then I'd know for certain if it's adequate or not.

But if I buy a saw and there's nothing wrong with it I think I'm kind of stuck with it. I doubt they'd let me return it after I assembled it and cut up a bunch of wood and decided I need a different saw.

I probably don't need 3 hp but here's the other thing. My lifetime goal is to be able to make anything I ever want to make. I'm not talking about wood-working. I'm talking about anything. If I want to make a miniature engine that runs then I want the tools and the skills.

I do plan to build a proper workbench one day and the one thing I know for certain is I want a really thick top and very stout legs.

I suppose if the wood is too thick for my saw I could go all Paul Sellers and use a handsaw to rip all my boards.

[Nick Stokes]

1.75 is enough for me. I have the sawstop pcs. With the stock blade, after it got dull, I struggled once when I tried to resaw a 2x4 with a full blade height cut. It bogged down. New sharp blade and it makes this cut fine. Full kerf. Thin kerf I haven't tried yet, but would be no problem at all.

Almost dull combo blade on it now, I just finished ripping 8/4 QSWO with no problems.

In 3 years, I've bogged it down a handful of times. All of which could be attributed to dull blades, or out of square lumber binding against the fence.

Most guys on here though will say it's Inferior... Same guys that drive around in 4x4 pickups that never leave the pavement? :D

[Steve Cowart]

1.75 is enough for me. I have the sawstop pcs. With the stock blade, after it got dull, I struggled once when I tried to resaw a 2x4 with a full blade height cut. It bogged down. New sharp blade and it makes this cut fine. Full kerf. Thin kerf I haven't tried yet, but would be no problem at all.

Almost dull combo blade on it now, I just finished ripping 8/4 QSWO with no problems.

In 3 years, I've bogged it down a handful of times. All of which could be attributed to dull blades, or out of square lumber binding against the fence.

Most guys on here though will say it's Inferior... Same guys that drive around in 4x4 pickups that never leave the pavement? :D

Plus 1,

I agree whole-heatedly! My 1.75 H.P. will NEVER stop me from building or cutting anything. If I can't cut it with 1.75 h.p. then I probably shouldn't be cutting it at all.

I don't mean to say 3 h.p. doesn't have its place, I just mean you will never find yourself limited to WHAT you can build.

[scott spencer]

Jim - It would be great if I knew someone with a 1.75 hp saw who would let me cut some of my wood. Then I'd know for certain if it's adequate or not.

But if I buy a saw and there's nothing wrong with it I think I'm kind of stuck with it. I doubt they'd let me return it after I assembled it and cut up a bunch of wood and decided I need a different saw.

I probably don't need 3 hp but here's the other thing. My lifetime goal is to be able to make anything I ever want to make. I'm not talking about wood-working. I'm talking about anything. If I want to make a miniature engine that runs then I want the tools and the skills.

I do plan to build a proper workbench one day and the one thing I know for certain is I want a really thick top and very stout legs.

I suppose if the wood is too thick for my saw I could go all Paul Sellers and use a handsaw to rip all my boards.

You don't "need" 3hp. You can cut most everything you need with a 1.75hp motor (or less), but you'll have to be more aware of the pace it can handle, alignment, blade choice, wood thickness/density, etc....it's not that difficult to bog down a 1.75hp by pushing a bit too hard. With 3hp, that'll almost never be an issue...you can pretty much dictate the pace. At some point, a lot of these saws are overkill and are more than is needed to cut wood....heck a $150 used Craftsman contractor will do the same job....anything beyond that is really a luxury. There's nothing wrong with wanting to own a really nice dream saw if it's something you'd enjoy and can swing the budget. 3hp is not a necessity for most of us, but there's an aspect of pleasure and enjoyment when you buy a top of the line saw, not to mention longevity. The 3hp motor makes me smile every time I hit the start button, and I've never regretted having it. It's kinda like getting that sports car of your dreams, but choosing the smaller more fuel efficient motor....would you regret getting a 67 Mustang with a 4-cylinder motor? ....nice car, but....

Lack of 220v would be the only reason I'd skip 3hp on a top shelf saw.

[Adam Merritt]

When I decided to buy a new saw months ago, I vowed to buy enough that I shouldn't need to upgrade again. My DWE7480 was a year old and I realized I don't like replacing new tools, so I let it be a lesson. When looking at the Grizzly saws, I had settled on the G1023RLWX. I knew it was a little bigger than I needed, and that I didn't care for the router mount. Considering I could get an extra cast iron extension and 5 HP motor for only $100 more than the G1023RL (or $50 over the RLW for just the extra 2 HP), that decision made itself. I think I would have always regretted not spending the $100 otherwise.
My biggest advice would be to try and buy a little more than you need now, so you don't have to upgrade/replace later. A good friend calls it "buy once, cry once".

[Jim Andrew]

The argument back in '04 when I ordered my Unisaw was, 5hp or 3hp. I ordered 3hp and have been happy with the uni. Also have a Hammer, it is 4hp. Both have plenty of power. Had the lower hp saws in the past, would not go that way.

[andy bessette]

I have both 1.5 and 3 hp Unisaws and am plenty happy with both.

[Chris Hachet]

When I decided to buy a new saw months ago, I vowed to buy enough that I shouldn't need to upgrade again. My DWE7480 was a year old and I realized I don't like replacing new tools, so I let it be a lesson. When looking at the Grizzly saws, I had settled on the G1023RLWX. I knew it was a little bigger than I needed, and that I didn't care for the router mount. Considering I could get an extra cast iron extension and 5 HP motor for only $100 more than the G1023RL (or $50 over the RLW for just the extra 2 HP), that decision made itself. I think I would have always regretted not spending the $100 otherwise.
My biggest advice would be to try and buy a little more than you need now, so you don't have to upgrade/replace later. A good friend calls it "buy once, cry once".I would second this in the strongest terms possible, actually.

[Paul K. Johnson]

I'm very strongly leaning toward a 3 hp saw. I never plan to make actual furniture but I still use some thick wood sometimes and it's often hard maple. I also have some 2" hickory that I bought just for giggles. I have 20 bf of it and so far the only thing I've used it for is to make a new handle for a tack hammer that came in a stanley tool cabinet I inherited from my granddad.

[Adam Merritt]

When making this type decision, I like to ask myself if I would ever regret buying option X or Y. "Will I ever regret that I bought a 3 HP saw, even if it turns out that I never really *needed* that much power", and the other would be "will I ever regret buying a 1.75 HP saw, if one day I do something unplanned and would have used that power". That helps me make the decision. I went back and forth on Grizzly vs SawStop for a long while, and would make my mind up one way, then change it, and flip again. It came down to the question of "If I never have an accident and never trip the safety stop, would I be upset I spent the money on it" and "If I ever accidentally touch the blade and don't have a SawStop, would I be upset I didn't spend for it".

I ended up running a bunch of new electrical in my garage about two months ago in prep for my new tools. I ran 2 separate L6-30R (dust collector and one other tool at the same time), 1 duplex 6-20R (just in case) shared with a 1 L6-20R (air compressor), and 2x duplex 5-20R on separate circuits (each duplex outlet on a separate circuit) for any small hand tools and other things in the future. I figured if I was going to run the 2 L6-30 outlets, I might as well run a few extra. All wire is 10-3 plus ground, so any of those 20 amp circuits could be upgraded to 30 amp with a breaker and receptacle change, and all support a full 4-wire conversion if needed in the future, all without having to pull any cables or cut in the wall again. I don't recall if you were going to need to run a 220v circuit for this purchase if you do the 3 HP, but if you do, think about future needs, as it would be cheaper to do it all at once.

[Paul K. Johnson]

I rent so I'm limited to what I can do. My current box is completely full. I would have to buy an additional service to put in 220 and the landlady isn't going to let me do that. If I could use the current box she would be fine with more circuits as long as I pay for them.

So I will be going to 220 and will end up using a high amperage extension cord that shares the dryer plug. It's the only way I can get 220 until I move. And I have no plans to move any time soon.

[glenn bradley]

I rent so I'm limited to what I can do. My current box is completely full. I would have to buy an additional service to put in 220 and the landlady isn't going to let me do that. If I could use the current box she would be fine with more circuits as long as I pay for them.

So I will be going to 220 and will end up using a high amperage extension cord that shares the dryer plug. It's the only way I can get 220 until I move. And I have no plans to move any time soon.

Just to add credence to your plan, I ran a shop made 12ga extension for my planer until I got the shop re-org'd and added a permanent plug location. My point is that your solution should work. Take the money you save adding the box/circuit and buy high quality cord and connectors for the extension cord and you should be fine.

[Chris Hachet]

Just to add credence to your plan, I ran a shop made 12ga extension for my planer until I got the shop re-org'd and added a permanent plug location. My point is that your solution should work. Take the money you save adding the box/circuit and buy high quality cord and connectors for the extension cord and you should be fine.Agreed....I will be using a similar cord to run my Powermatic band saw from my Unisaw outlet until I can find time to add a second panel in the basement. Nothing wrong with this approach at all.