Harbor freight chisel prep

[John C Cox]

Hey guys,

A heads up if you decide to try out the Harbor Freight Windsor Design wood chisel set...

Be prepared to grind off the decarburized mush layer to get to actual hard steel... On the bevel, back, and sides..

Straight out of the package after flattening the backs a bit - they will take a razor edge but it rolls immediately... Soft gummy mush.

Grind through that stuff to the decent steel and at least they have a shot at being useful.

I was using some of mine to pull a cracked back off a guitar last night. (Didn't want to mess up better chisels prying and chopping through glue and finish). At first - the edge kept rolling. I had to grind the edge a couple times.... After a couple rounds I finally saw sparks.. And the chisel finally started holding an edge. Same deal with the back... I probably had to grind down 1/32" or more to finally find hard steel...

If you use a machine - I wouldn't be too gentle on these at first. Grind off the mush till you see decent looking sparks.

If you only sharpen by hand - this could take a really long time on the stones.... Perhaps start off with a good file to remove the mush... And then move to the grind stones once you feel the file working harder on the better steel.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks John. I wondered about those. For me, the HFs sound more time consuming than they are worth.

I bought a couple Buck Brothers at the Borg for rough use and a set of Aldi for $8, around fathers day last time.

Fred

[Jim Koepke]

The Windsor chisels at Harbor Freight didn't pass my visual inspection. They just didn't look like there was a thought toward quality.

They are cheap enough, but I have way too many cheap chisels.

Maybe it is time to see how many can fit in a small flat rate box and list them on ebay. The starting price could be the cost of shipping. At least it would clean out a little space in the shop.

jtk

[bridger berdel]

The Windsor chisels at Harbor Freight didn't pass my visual inspection. They just didn't look like there was a thought toward quality.

They are cheap enough, but I have way too many cheap chisels.

Maybe it is time to see how many can fit in a small flat rate box and list them on ebay. The starting price could be the cost of shipping. At least it would clean out a little space in the shop.

jtk

been there, done that. they are a source of blades for miscellaneous toolmaking, but be prepared to do some work on them.

they end up being, what, about $2 each? for that kind of money I can find unhandled cast steel socket chisels at junk shops that need less work on the stones. the wider sizes are a bit more scarce, and there is the matter of making handles, but the HF handles leave a lot to be desired anyway. in the end, it's hard to see the draw of such bottom end chisels for anything but loaning to complete idiots.

[Rob Luter]

I'll pass, but thanks for the tip.

[lowell holmes]

The borg Stanleys have pretty good steel. I sharpened some of my son's beaters today and they are good.

Translucent end grain paring is the result. I have shoe boxes full of chisels that have all been sharpened.

I do it just because I can.:)

[steven c newman]

I might have a couple older H-F chisels....
356310
Maybe 2-3? All of them I had since the early 90s.....

Make good loaners.....:D

[John C Cox]

A brief update.

I seem to have gotten to "hard" enough steel. The steel isn't scratched by other hardware store chisels....

But for some reason - it doesn't cut right. It's like the steel feels sharp - but it acts dull in use.... Perhaps not enough carbon content.

These chisels may be destined to be dubbed and backed with sticky back sandpaper for use as "sanding sticks". I have too many other good ideas to continue down this road trying to get something useful out of these.

[steven c newman]

Never had any issues with the H-F chisels I've had since the 1990s.....easy to flatten the backs, easy to get an mirror like bevel and a sharp edge. I do not really care IF a chisel can be scratched by another piece of steel, I try to protect my tools a little better than that. Might take me...1/2 hour to flatten, sharpen and then USE the chisels. usually I use a 25 degree bevel, without any added bevels added in. I have been cut by a few of my chisels, but, the only way I would have known I was cut, was when the "DNA" appeared on the wood. I leave the chisels to be cutting wood.....a Cold Chisel can stand up to other metals scratching them. but......I don't use a cold chisel to chop a Mortise, either.

[steven c newman]

And...you are more than welcome to come and see the ones I have. Maybe I am doing something different than others do on a chisel?

But...IF your H-F chisels should happen to be ones like these....
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Then , yes,they are junk. I thought these Yard Sale chisels were Stanleys......nope, just the cheaper versions. These make good loaner toys, that I don't care IF they are returned.

[John C Cox]

And yet they always get returned.

I suppose one benefit is that you can fix up the edge with a ball peen hammer. ;)

These are the wood handle versions.

I believe these chisels are some sort of low carbon alloy. I managed to harden one up today - but it had to get really hot and brine quench. The standard nonmagnetic + 50 degrees leaves these mushy. No cracks, though.

[steven c newman]

Never had to "harden" any chisel....never saw a NEED to do so. Maybe searching for a "solution" of a "problem" that really doesn't exist......Of course, one can get any steel too "hard" , but ..then it just becomes too brittle to hold an edge.

"leaves them "mushy"? Maybe had the temper drawn out of them? By someone trying to "harden" them? Remind me not to loan any of my chisels to you....

[John C Cox]

lol. I did manage to get them "hard" but the temper draws out incredibly fast. Another hallmark of low carbon steel.

And I probably don't need to borrow your soft beater chisels - I already have my own. ;)

I am going to grind these for flat end chisels. Perhaps they may be well suited for that duty.

Otherwise - these are now still a dead end for me.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Well, I'm mostly not a HF fan, but there are some items that are fair to good, at cheap prices. For example, HF sells lathe chisels (a Windsor Design), dirt cheap, but marked "HSS". Worked very well. Another tool are the dividers-bought a set of (IIRC) 12" long dividers for something like $6.00. Took maybe five minutes with Sc paper to dub off a sharp edge, but I've used them many times, hinge is still tight, and I would rate these very high.

[Mike Brady]

Shouldn't the conclusion here be "don't bother"? Harbor Freight would be the last place, literally, to shop for an edged tool. Almost anywhere else would be better: flea markets, garage sales, Aldi grocery (really not bad chisels!). This thread reminds me so much of one started about ten years ago regarding a HF hand plane. Guys were having custom irons made for them, making new wood handles, etc....really kind of ridiculous, like lipstick on a pig. I would bet maybe 10% of those purchased ever saw any use. The only winner here is Harbor Freight.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Shouldn't the conclusion here be "don't bother"? Harbor Freight would be the last place, literally, to shop for an edged tool. Almost anywhere else would be better: flea markets, garage sales, Aldi grocery (really not bad chisels!). This thread reminds me so much of one started about ten years ago regarding a HF hand plane. Guys were having custom irons made for them, making new wood handles, etc....really kind of ridiculous, like lipstick on a pig. I would bet maybe 10% of those purchased ever saw any use. The only winner here is be Harbor Freight.

With the HF plane thread, I remember buying one as an experiment to see what it would take to make it perform. I had Jim Reed supply me an iron, had one of my machinists true and square the sole, I vaguely remember doing something with the adjusters, plus "prettying" the plane up (stripped knob and tote, applied BLO, also painted it a LN black color). With the cost of the plane, plus items needed to make it perform, cost was less than $100.00, even accounting for blade and grinding. The plane was easy to adjust, and would take .0015" shavings without batting an eyelash.

I gave the plane away to a budding woodworker, who used it for several years before replacing.

[steven c newman]

That "Harbor Freight Plane" I had, was turned into a very nice scrub plane. The "Windsor # 33" is a #3 sized version of Stanley's SB4 smooth plane. Iron was already quite thick, was easy enough to regrind a 3" radius camber to it. Was never meant to be a smooth plane, anyway. What I paid $10 back then, in now approaching the $15 mark new... They must be selling quite a few of them?

I would prefer any edge tool from them, way before I'd buy a power tool. I thought about getting that 6-9 piece chisel set, but got the four pc from Aldis. Until then, my 3/4" chisel from H-F was my go-to chisel. Doesn't like hitting a nail lost in the wood....but, what chisel does? It now has it's second handle, and I may make/turn a new one...someday.

What do some of you do to a chisel that turns them into a "Mushy" state? de-temper them? Even the gauge to check for Rockwell hardness will dent Rc 64......Are you trying for brittle steel? Or. just burn cheap chisels for fun?

[steven c newman]

Just went down to the shop....I still have both a 3/4" and a 1" H-F wood handled chisels, that I bought new back in the mid 1990s.....still quite sharp, I can trim my fingernails with either, with ease. or shave hairs with them. The other thre in the set are long gone, now.

[John C Cox]

What do some of you do to a chisel that turns them into a "Mushy" state? de-temper them? Even the gauge to check for Rockwell hardness will dent Rc 64......Are you trying for brittle steel? Or. just burn cheap chisels for fun?

They came in that way. At first - I thought it was just grind back 1/16" to good steel and off you go... But nope. You could get it shaving sharp - and it was dull as soon as it hit wood.

I was hoping that somehow - the heat treatment was just messed up. Nope - not enough carbon to hold any reasonable hardness.

[steven c newman]

Hmmm, going to make a run up to H-F in a bit.....have a few other items to look at. Will take a look at their current version of chisels while I am there...My son saw a couple things on sale, and we can get a bunch of AA or AAA free....will sww what they have.

[steven c newman]

Currently, my local (Lima,Oh ) H-F is SOLD OUT of the wood handled chisels.....they had plenty of the yellow plastic handled junkers, though. Can't imagine why...

Free 24 pack of AAA batteries, and a jar of Green Polishing compound.....Son got a roll-around stool, and a light-weight jack for the van.

[Harry Hagan]

Currently, my local (Lima,Oh ) H-F is SOLD OUT of the wood handled chisels.....they had plenty of the yellow plastic handled junkers, though. Can't imagine why...

Free 24 pack of AAA batteries, and a jar of Green Polishing compound.....Son got a roll-around stool, and a light-weight jack for the van.


I used a coupon to buy some of those "yellow plastic handled junkers" to chop out old caulking around my windows and doors before recaulking and repainting last summer. Mush was just one of the four-letter words I was using to describe them!

[steven c newman]

Must be the reason there was so many left in the store......

Took a picture or two of the two remaining H-F wood handled chisels in the shop, that were bought new back in the early 90s, maybe earlier..
356903
A 3/4" and a 1" wide chisels....
356904
Decent enough bevels....
356905
Backs ARE flat where they need to be flat
356906
The 1" handle USED to have a top ferrel, just like the 3/4" one's.......lot of use in over 20 years will do that...

[John C Cox]

So I think I figured out what was going on... There were these bands of hard and soft.. It was pretty obvious when sharpening and giving them the scratch test...

So I gave the offending 1/2" chisel a go in the torch... And it showed me whats going on.... Apparently, this particular chisel just has bad steel. Perhaps a reject - but there are funny U shaped bands in the steel. The edges are soft and mushy. The middle between the U's are hard. I will try to get pix up to show this.

I sharpened up the 3/4" chisel and it seems fine. But it has a lot of dings where it looks like they messed up the grinding a little....

which brings me to my suspicion... They are recycling reject chisels from some other process for these... This is their way to sell off the seconds. The question is "Why did they reject this particular chisel?" In th case of the 1/2" - the steel was bad. The 3/4" appears to have several grinding defects... I am loosing interest in these chisels.... I think I will try to clean up the good ones - but I wont waste any more time if I hit one that seems soft.

[george wilson]

Just give up on HF edge tools! Their twine is o.k.. The acid brushes even look cheaper than others,but they are o.k. for spreading glue-as long as the hairs don't fall out!:)

Back when I was a kid with little or no money,I used those yellow plastic handled wood chisels that hardware stores used to sell. Their blades were stamped out of FLAT 1/8" steel. No bolster. Just the outline of one. I wish I still had one,so,now that I know better,I could test them against good chisels. I think that in the 50's,there was still enough pride in tool making that you could get a 50 cent chisel that would cut fairly well. It's been a very long time ago,but I made quite a few guitars with those chisels. Those,a block plane,and my pocket knife were my main tools back then.

[John C Cox]

Shouldn't the conclusion here be "don't bother?

Probably. My conclusion is that these tools are factory 2nd's from someone's chisel making factory.... And realistically, you are rolling the dice.

And as with all seconds - you have to ask why they dropped this specific one out.... If the steel is good and the heat treat is good - but it warped too much or they messed up the grinding and finishing.. Then you can probably salvage a good chisel out of it...

On the other hand - if they rejected it because the steel was bad or they messed up the heat treatment - Then there's no hope for fixing that up by sharpening or flattening it some more.

Now... Maybe its worth rolling the dice... Maybe not.... Its a lot of work to find out its junk... And its a lot of work to sort out a warped or badly ground chisel...

What happens if the ones you wanted are the junk ones.. Hey look - the 1/2" chisel that I really need and would use all the time is junk but the 1 1/2" chisel that I never use for anything is great.

So.. Yeah.. Are you interested in rolling the dice on seconds?

[John C Cox]

Just give up on HF edge tools! Their twine is o.k.. The acid brushes even look cheaper than others,but they are o.k. for spreading glue-as long as the hairs don't fall out!:)

No more for me.... I have already wasted way too much time on these.


Back when I was a kid with little or no money,I used those yellow plastic handled wood chisels that hardware stores used to sell. Their blades were stamped out of FLAT 1/8" steel. No bolster. Just the outline of one. I wish I still had one,so,now that I know better,I could test them against good chisels. I think that in the 50's,there was still enough pride in tool making that you could get a 50 cent chisel that would cut fairly well. It's been a very long time ago,but I made quite a few guitars with those chisels. Those,a block plane,and my pocket knife were my main tools back then

I found one of those chisels in a junk store last week. An old thin blade, no bolster, wood handle Great Neck chisel. The steel was so soft you could scratch it with an old carbon steel pocket knife.... You know - the ones they only hardened to 54 or 55 so they would be super easy to resharpen. I gave that one a pass....

Not all old tools were good ones...

[steven c newman]

This drawer is for all those "Extra" chisels.....
357266
left side of the drawer...
357267
Sears, Millers Falls Permaloids, Stanleys, a Fuller, and a few others....saved to be loaned out, or when some dirty, nasty recycled wood comes to the shop. Beaters, everyone.
357268
Need a chisel? Pick one, and take it. Not worried if it comes back. use these for the "Dirty Jobs" out there, and save the good chisels for other, more Gentlemanly work..
357269
Prefer old Witherbys, Butchers, and the old Buck Brothers. Mortise Chisel is by "New Haven Edge Tool Co." Have about worn out the top leather washer, may need a new one...

[Mel Fulks]

George, the Southern aversion to Nicholson could have been a Civil War thing. There was a Yankee ship captain by that name. I can remember hearing why some products were were not to be used. YES we invented "branding"!

[george wilson]

Thanks Mel,I was not aware of that!

[John C Cox]

This pic shows the funny soft/hard lines in the steel. The upside down U shapes are soft mushy spots..

https://s12.postimg.org/i9g1r5wv1/image.jpg

[Warren West]

Cheap junk + your time = expensive junk unless your time is worthless.

[Kees Heiden]

Steel is not much made from iron ore anymore, at least the iron ore content of steel is sometimes remarkably low! Most of it is scrap metal. Maybe those weird patterns are from some old toilet pot, melted into the soup but not quite stirred well enough? In theory the steel maker should know how to deal with contaminations from the scrap metal, but on the lower end of the Chinese production ladder they probably don't care a whole lot. Or maybe it is something going wrong with the slag management? When buying cheap construction steel, it is often full of weird stuff that makes milling and turning a lot more difficult.

I am sure one of the steel professionals on this forum have a better explanation.

[steven c newman]

Unless nobody is paying for the time spent doing a HOBBY. ANY time "spent" working in a shop is worth going to the shop for. Unless you are some that won't even walk into their shops without getting paid to be there...

Keep a few "junk" chisels around.....rough work ( reclaimed lumber?) a "new" to you sharpening routine to try out, Used to go where a "Good Chisel" dare not.

My vintage Butcher, Buck Brothers, Witherbys, and Greenlees usually cost me a dollar bill each, for 100yr old tools. Does that make them " Cheap Junk"? Or, does a chisel's "quality" depend on how much YOU thought you had to pay.....$$$= Best quality?

Hmmm...IF a chisel is so "hard" it can not be scratched.....how do you even sharpen it? If it is THAT hard, it is also ...quite brittle, I'd be very careful around those....shrapnel does tend to hurt.

[steven c newman]

Take this for an example;

While building an outdoor deck. Need 1/2 lap joints to add a railing to the deck. Would you bring your high dollar chisels out there, to finish the lap smooth? To finish breaking out the slices a saw had left? After all, that treated wood post may still be "wet", will have knots, and will have a few stones inbedded in the surface. Maybe that is why I always carried a wide, cheap chisel in my nail bag. It could also pop a staple up just enough for my claw hammer to grab and pull out.

We'd scrape off any concrete forms down to the MDO face after each use. Side of the hammer? Wide putty knife....? Wide chisel. IF we had a big stack to do, long handled scraper, but, if it was just a couple forms...a wide chisel would do. The stuck-on concrete, and a left-over form oil in the MDO face would also help sharpen the cheap chisel. Then back into the leather pocket on the nailbag. BTDT.

Do any work on outside, wooden windows?

Maybe need some trim work on the front door done, to prep for painting, refinishing, weather strip work?

[Tony Zaffuto]

Got to be careful with so-called throw away tools. Seems every time I try them, I end up tuning them, figure out how to hold my tongue just right and then using them!

One of my most often used chisels for years was a red plastic handled 1-1/4" thing my dad bought in a dollar bin about 35 years ago. Figured it to be a paint scraper, but it took a great edge, held it well. Still use it, though there is only about an inch of useful blade left.

[John C Cox]

Hmmm...IF a chisel is so "hard" it can not be scratched.....how do you even sharpen it? If it is THAT hard, it is also ...quite brittle, I'd be very careful around those....shrapnel does tend to hurt.

Lol. Its a juxtaposition of east meets west. Its layers of super steel interwoven into soft steel for maximum shock resistance.... Randomly distributed for maximum effect. A modern Chinese cross between the finest damascus steel and laminated Japanese blades....

[John C Cox]

While building an outdoor deck. Need 1/2 lap joints to add a railing to the deck. Would you bring your high dollar chisels out there, to finish the lap smooth? To finish breaking out the slices a saw had left? After all, that treated wood post may still be "wet", will have knots, and will have a few stones inbedded in the surface. Maybe that is why I always carried a wide, cheap chisel in my nail bag. It could also pop a staple up just enough for my claw hammer to grab and pull out.


Whats this about chisls outside on a deck? Fancy dovetail joints in wet pressure treated pine? Remind me to explain "nails" to you newnderthals. ;) ;) ;). I will get going on that tutorial after I finish my chisel quest. ;)

[steven c newman]

LOL, and still didn't read it right......never worked as a Deck Builder, I guess. Half LAP joints to attach a railing post to a deck. Cleaned up with a chisel after the saw work is done. pergola building? How do you make those joints? What chisels do you use when working with Ipe? Fancy? Nah, but IF you look at the corners on a log home, some are build with a form of dovetails to connect the logs. Or, would you bring a dainty dovetail saw for that?

Nails to attach a railings posts to a deck? Remind me NOT to lean against your railings.....