Veritas Shooting Plane quite a bit out of square. How important is this?

[Hasin Haroon]

Allow me to preface this post by saying this is not meant to be a post hating on Veritas tools or their commitment to quality at all - I have purchased almost all of the planes they offer (I'm not particularly affluent, so this means I need to save up/sell other tools to be able to afford them) and have had very few concerns with their tools in the past.

I recently purchased a shooting plane with a PM-V11 blade in store, only to come home and find one of the interior surfaces had a big dent and was missing some paint (it was obvious enough that I wondered how it passed QC). It didn't affect functionality at all, but for a $400 plane (in Canada) I expect something perfect, so I returned it.

I ordered another one online in early February, as they were sold out in store, and just received my plane today. Unfortunately the plane is quite a bit out of square along its length - not a little bit, but a lot (See pictures). I tried it against 3 of my most accurate squares just to be sure. In addition, the blade was also ground considerably out of square. In normal circumstances, I would return the plane immediately, but they are sold out online and in-store until mid April, and I've been wanting to get to use this plane since early February. I'm also a little disappointed that two planes with obvious flaws were allowed to go out to customers.

So how important is it that the sides are square to each other? I know I can adjust the blade to be square to the shooting board, but there will be enough of the blade unsupported do to the side and sole being out of square that I can picture it affecting the smoothness of the way the plane functions. Any thoughts?
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[Derek Cohen]

Hasin, send it back. Sorry.

While it is possible to adjust the blade with the lateral lever, or even grind the blade out-of-square to match the sole, the fact is that the side/sole will be out-of-square to the workpiece. That makes lining up more difficult. It's not worth the angst.

Contact LV. You know they will take this seriously and, in the light of the history, do what they can to expedite a quick replacement.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Hachet]

Very sorry this has happened to you, Hasin-it can be really frustrating when you need a tool and it isn't there-does not work.

On the other hand, a sweetly running tool can be such a joy. Ironically, my two best planes came through the hands of other creekers-Steven Newman found me a type 15 Stanly #6 in an antique store that is nothing sort of amazing. Visiting woodworkers in my shop put down my L-N #4 Bronze and pick up the #6, and keep using the #6....

The other one is a Mitre plane I got from Andrew Pitonyak, my shop mate Brian builds a lot of guitars and repairs guitars, this thing works phenomenally well on guitar fret boards. It also works well for tuning up joints and shooting.

So I would echo Derek...you want this plane to be really right and sweet to use....Good luck!

[Phil Mueller]

Hasin, as stated above LV will take care of you. It's an investment you'll use for a very long time, so waiting a little longer to get it right is worth it, IMO.

I recently ordered the shooting plane as well and when I first read your post I was confused because they indicated no delay in shipping. Then I remembered...I ordered the LH version. I guess there are a few advantages we south paws have from time to time :)

[Barney Markunas]

This is not really a cosmetics issue that you'll want to ignore or fix painlessly, or a personal preference issue where you tune a tool to suit your body and work habits; as good as they are, the folks at LV are human and once in a rare while, things are not as they should be. Contact the LV customer service folks and let them make this right. They take care of their customers and will likely want to investigate how you got two duds in a row. Enjoy your plane once you get things sorted out... that one is going to be included in my next letter to Santa.

[Frederick Skelly]

Agree. You can count on LV. Rob Lee and his team never fail to impress me. They do not want you to have a tool that is substandard. Call them and they WILL make this right.

I noticed last week that shooting planes are out of stock until 4/15. It crosses my mind to wonder if they might already be aware of the problem and put a hold on sales until they inspect every one on the shelf....

Fred

[Simon MacGowen]

Since you are from Edmonton and if the store is nearby, simply bring it to the store and it will do an exchange (if stock is available) on the spot or will have a new one shipped to you with no shipping cost. Otherwise call its 1800# (customer service).

Simon

[Hasin Haroon]

Thanks for the advice and suggestions everyone, greatly appreciated. Derek, you have a great point about the side being out of square to the board, and for a precision tool like this that would throw everything off. Chris and Phil, I know what you mean about a perfect and perfectly set up tool, and you're right, it's an investment that I hope to enjoy for decades so I want it to be just right.

I think I remember seeing in another thread that Rob Lee said the orders and backorders are dealt with on a first-order first-serve basis, so I was a little worried about returning it in-store and re-ordering and being sent to the back of the line (the plane is out of stock in Edmonton, and Online until mid-April).

So I called customer service, gave them the entire history of the two defective planes and asked if I could get one processed soon (before Mid-April). They asked that I send the out of square plane back so they can investigate. They did say that they don't have any in stock until mid April, except for one unit at the Ottawa store that they just might be able to test and get to me. If they are able to do that I should receive it within a couple weeks, otherwise it'll just have to be another month's wait.

In any case, I suppose I'll receive it eventually sooner or later. It sounds like the next tool I receive will be inspected with extra scrutiny so it will be perfect, but I wish it would've been a smoother experience overall.

[William Fretwell]

After the Rowden woodworking school broadcast email this morning the timing of this post is MOST unfortunate.
It seems LV's attempt to save face with their planes has failed, Rowden thoroughly trashed their planes.

I checked my planes today and sadly Rowden is right. Both my jointer and jack BU planes no longer have a flat sole, the jointer markedly so. They did when I bought them 8 years ago. I spent hours with large sheets of 600 grit taped to my very flat table saw side table. I covered the bases in black marker and watched the heel toe rub down as I 'figure 8' the planes.

To see that today and then see a shooting plane that out of square is horrible. There can be no serious quality control.

Rowden's premise was that Veritas planes don't stay flat, they move with time. It seems the school and students no longer use them.
He was not happy with their blade irons either.

[Stewie Simpson]

I am certainly no mech engineer, but if you look at the lack of continuity within the side wall strength of the Veritas designed hand planes, it should be of little surprise the sole is going to continue to move over time.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/images/item/Woodworking/Planes/custPlaneGroup1.jpg

A comparison of the side wall strength on the Lie Nielson hand planes.

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4171/standard-bench-planes

The side wall strength of an earlier designed Stanley No 5 Bench Plane.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/silicon%20carbide%20flattening/_DSC0174_zpsnpvfpzgo.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/silicon%20carbide%20flattening/_DSC0174_zpsnpvfpzgo.jpg.html)

[Derek Cohen]

After the Rowden woodworking school broadcast email this morning the timing of this post is MOST unfortunate.
It seems LV's attempt to save face with their planes has failed, Rowden thoroughly trashed their planes.

I checked my planes today and sadly Rowden is right. Both my jointer and jack BU planes no longer have a flat sole, the jointer markedly so. They did when I bought them 8 years ago. I spent hours with large sheets of 600 grit taped to my very flat table saw side table. I covered the bases in black marker and watched the heel toe rub down as I 'figure 8' the planes.

To see that today and then see a shooting plane that out of square is horrible. There can be no serious quality control.

Rowden's premise was that Veritas planes don't stay flat, they move with time. It seems the school and students no longer use them.
He was not happy with their blade irons either.

William, from one that has had a lot of time with the Veritas planes (I have been part of pre-production testing for many years now), I find your comments concerning. So I went to my shop and took some photos of my planes. In short, the soles were dead flat. Now keep in mind that I have had some of these planes a dozen years, such a the BU Jointer ..

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The LA Jack ..

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BU Smoother ...

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Here's a recent addition, the Custom #7 ...

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I think that you will agree that the soles are all flat - there is no light shining under the straight edge (A Starrett rule).

The proof of the pudding is in the eating - are your planes working as they should?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I am certainly no mech engineer, but if you look at the lack of continuity within the side wall strength of the Veritas designed hand planes, it should be of little surprise the sole is going to continue to move over time.

[snip]

A comparison of the side wall strength on the Lie Nielson hand planes. [snip]

The side wall strength of an earlier designed Stanley No 5 Bench Plane. [snip]



Nonsense Stewie. You clearly have not even looked at the Veritas planes, or you do not know about their construction.

Notwithstanding that the Veritas and LN planes are built from ductile iron and are not built from grey iron, as the Stanley planes are, all of which means that you are comparing apples with oranges here ... the construction of the Veritas planes is different in two important ways ...

Firstly, if you look below, you will see that the side walls of the Veritas plane (here the Custom #4) is twice the width/thickness of the Stanley and the LN ...

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And secondly, if you look at the bed of the Stanley vs the Veritas Custom (which are the planes you pointed out were deficient in design ...), then you will also notice that the Stanley bed is flat, and the Veritas bed is rounded/convex - and twice the thickness of the Stanley ...

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And lastly, I have a few Stanley planes, which I treasure and use. ALL of them needed to have their soles flattened. Even the Bed Rocks.

William, I have no idea why your planes are not flat. I suggest you take it up with Lee Valley - they will be concerned and want to sort this out. I am not a spokesperson for them, but my involvement in testing and the reviews I write do lend me a sense of responsibility to ensure that there is factual information being presented. Perhaps others here would do the same as I did with their planes and report back?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I am certainly no mech engineer, but if you look at the lack of continuity within the side wall strength of the Veritas designed hand planes, it should be of little surprise the sole is going to continue to move over time.



I thought the same thing when I first saw the new models- especially the jointer. That said, their shooting plane is a beast. I have it, and the sole is probably 1/2" thick in the reinforcements around the edges, and the sole to base (sole being the upright part on the shooting plane) is a hefty transition.

[john zulu]

Thanks for the clarification Derek. Was wondering the same thing. Could not test my planes as I am away.
Ductile steel is very stable as it is. Storing the plane on the sole would exert even pressure around the sole itself. Not causing it to deform!

Maybe someone dropped it before hence for this to happen.

[Stewie Simpson]

As mentioned, I am not a mech engineer, but the following article on the stability of Ductile Cast Iron is an interesting read. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092150931401538X

[Derek Cohen]

Stewie, for objectivity, perhaps you can find us another article - one on the stability of grey iron? Do you believe that grey iron is more stable than ductile iron? And out of curiosity, where would you place the stability of wood (as in woodies)?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Hasin Haroon]

William, I have to say this is the first time I've ever had an issue with a veritas plane that affected it's functionality. It is a little unfortunate that two planes with flaws slipped past QC but as Barney said, they are human and I suppose errors do occur.
I don't subscribe to rowden broadcast emails, but I remember reading a review by rowden where he said he didn't consider veritas to be of the same quality as lie Nielsen and clifton. I must say, I found his arguments in that article to be rather weak and unconvincing. Other than this shooting plane fiasco my experience with these finely designed tools has been stellar.

[William Fretwell]

I will take it up with LV. I have flattened the sole of every plane I own now, well flattened to something I think will work anyway. My jointer has quite a way to go yet. I use it often and it has not stopped me getting good joints but flat may be easier.

My General cast iron table saw is made in Canada. They leave the castings outside in the Quebec winter/summer for two years before machining so the metal won't move; mine has not.

It is one thing for castings to move later but for a shooting plane to leave the factory that out of square says they have no idea about ISO standards or even rudimentary QC.

The thickness of the metal may not always be a good thing to stay flat. Stresses in thicker metal may be greater. It all depends how the casting is relaxed.

[Frederick Skelly]

After the Rowden woodworking school broadcast email this morning the timing of this post is MOST unfortunate.
It seems LV's attempt to save face with their planes has failed, Rowden thoroughly trashed their planes.

I checked my planes today and sadly Rowden is right. Both my jointer and jack BU planes no longer have a flat sole, the jointer markedly so. They did when I bought them 8 years ago. I spent hours with large sheets of 600 grit taped to my very flat table saw side table. I covered the bases in black marker and watched the heel toe rub down as I 'figure 8' the planes.

To see that today and then see a shooting plane that out of square is horrible. There can be no serious quality control.

Rowden's premise was that Veritas planes don't stay flat, they move with time. It seems the school and students no longer use them.
He was not happy with their blade irons either.

I haven't heard of any "attempt to save face" from Lee Valley. Please folks, be careful here. We have the potential to seriously damage the reputation of a well-established, well-respected firm. Go out into your shops and measure the flatness of your planes' soles and report back like Derek did. I'm going to.

William: Im not clear - were your planes out of flat when you bought them, or did you just recently have to flatten them? How far out of flat - one thousandth or four - "markedly so" is kind of vague.

Edit: My BU Jointer is 0.001 out at the heel, near the center. LA Jack has a 0.002 hollow on the far "port" side, behind the mouth and is dead flat everywhere else. BU Smoother is dead flat all the way. I did not check any of these tools when new so I cant comment on whether the metal has moved. For comparison, I checked a Tom Bussey-prepared jointer I bought "second hand" and my Wood River #3. They were both dead flat. Personally, I'm not convinced I need to worry about this - all 3 LV tools perform flawlessly.

[Rob Luter]

I will take it up with LV. I have flattened the sole of every plane I own now, well flattened to something I think will work anyway. My jointer has quite a way to go yet. I use it often and it has not stopped me getting good joints but flat may be easier.

My General cast iron table saw is made in Canada. They leave the castings outside in the Quebec winter/summer for two years before machining so the metal won't move; mine has not.

It is one thing for castings to move later but for a shooting plane to leave the factory that out of square says they have no idea about ISO standards or even rudimentary QC.

The thickness of the metal may not always be a good thing to stay flat. Stresses in thicker metal may be greater. It all depends how the casting is relaxed.

You paint with a pretty broad brush here.

First of all, I doubt that General leaves castings outside for two years when normalizing will serve the same function at a fraction of the cost of tying up two years worth of casting production. They're making saws, not wine.

Secondly, the fact that a non-compliant product left the factory indicates a breakdown in the Quality Management System (QMS), but not a lack of understanding of the ISO standard or a quality management system. A properly run ISO registered QMS anticipates that non-compliant product will be produced. Even six sigma zealots will agree that the combined six sigma under the bell curve only covers 99.7% of production. What's really important (and an indication of how their QMS is working) is whether they conduct a root cause analysis and deploy corrective actions.

[Rob Lee]

Hasin -

Sorry to read of the problem you encountered - we'll put it right to your satisfaction (as we would do for any customer...).

I've asked our VP of R&D to get ahold of your return, and will have it measured on a CMM when it gets back, and let you know what we find. Will also see what I can do about getting a plane to you more quickly.

As for other comments in this thread - there's not much upside to arguing with opinion. We have decades of empirical evidence that makes it easy to stand behind what do.

Cheers -

Rob

[glenn bradley]

I had heard of a few cases of this so I diligently checked my plane when it arrived. It was out of square. Not sure where the QA was failing on this model but, the fact that it occurs at all would seem to make it an anomaly compared to other Veritas items discussed hither and yon. I returned mine and the CS rep checked the replacement himself before sending it. Nothing I have could detect any problem with the replacement and it has been a joy to use.

[george wilson]

If I had a plane with any defect,I'd just send it back, as your guarantee is impeccable, and everyone here knows it. Years ago I had a small problem with a block plane, which I offered to repair myself. But, your staff insisted upon sending another plane.

As a toolmaker who hand made or hand machined(an actual term! Means manually machined, not by CNC.) every tool,I know that once in a while something can slip through, even in my comparatively small shop in the museum. I made a coach axle 3/16" too short one time, though I will say that it was probably due to the 3 view drawings that the Wheelwright would send. They showed the SAME object with different lengths in different views!!:) Happily,he retired. It was immediately lengthened in the huge lathe I had in the shop at that time. Those coached generated a LOT of income hauling happy visitors around town!! But,I took responsibility for it as no one else was equipped to deal with it-or would drop everything to fix the matter. If anyone is curious as to how I LENGTHENED an axle: There was always a 5/8" thick welded on ring on the inboard end of all the axles to butt against the inboard end of the wooden hub. I just turned 3/16" off that thick ring. Had the wagon back on the street in an hour. It would have been MUCH more trouble had the axle been TOO LONG!!

That's the way I know your company operates.

[J. Greg Jones]

Perhaps others here would do the same as I did with their planes and report back?

Regards from Perth

Derek
I didn't check all my Veritas planes, and didn't take photos of all the planes that I checked, but everything I checked looks the same as they did when new. My Custom Bench Plane 5-1/2 Jack has a little light showing at the tail, perhaps .001" and my Shooting Plane also shows that it is out of square ever-so-slightly, but that is the way they have always been. Pictured is my LAJ, which I believe is my oldest Veritas Bench Plane. Approximately 9 years old now and still dead flat. I don't doubt that it is possible to get a new Veritas plane that is out of tolerance, but I am skeptical of claims that these planes are less stable over time than other makes.

[Rob Luter]

Hasin -

Sorry to read of the problem you encountered - we'll put it right to your satisfaction (as we would do for any customer...).

I've asked our VP of R&D to get ahold of your return, and will have it measured on a CMM when it gets back, and let you know what we find. Will also see what I can do about getting a plane to you more quickly.

As for other comments in this thread - there's not much upside to arguing with opinion. We have decades of empirical evidence that makes it easy to stand behind what do.

Cheers -

Rob


For what it's worth, my Low Angle Jack is dead flat and the sides are perfectly square. It's a great shooting plane, and has been for seven years.

[Simon MacGowen]

This is an interesting thread as I have built furniture with my Veritas planes for so long without any concerns. But I will check all my Veritas planes as Derek suggested. But first, those who plan to do the checking must make sure they have a reliable gear to do the checking: a true square and straight edge.

I can't but wonder why ANY Veritas customers would try to fix a new Veritas product themselves when a return pre-paid shipping label is included in every shipment. Elsewhere I also read that people were asking how they should lap (read: flatten) a new Veritas chisel, etc. Would you try to look under the hood when your brand new $50,000 SUV is delivered to your door with some funny noise? I wouldn't.

I hope Rob will share with us whatever they find out after his R&D people have had a chance to look at the returned plane. That should be a priority matter for their manufacturing engineers.

Simon

[Karl Andersson]

Regarding the recent Rowden messaging, it's probably just David Savage (who works for them) expressing the same opinion he had 3 years ago and times before that: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?212084-David-Savage-on-bench-planes
He prefers lie Nielsen and Clifton and likes to share his opinion. If you'd like more of it, you can buy his DVDs.

[Hasin Haroon]

Thanks Rob. I have no doubt that you guys will make it right, I've been using Veritas tools for a while now and have never been disappointed (by the tool or the customer service). Not so sure about the wiretapping though...

I feel a bit guilty and must apologise for the turn the thread took - The thread was meant to get advice on whether this is usable or a deal breaker; I tried to preclude this kind of discussion with my first couple of lines in the original post but here we are.

For what it's worth, I have a tool chest full of veritas tools (and one infill plane) and I checked all of them for straightness and squareness where applicable as per Derek's suggestion. They are all pretty much dead on. I'd post pictures but that would be rather protracted. The infill plane is not flat despite my many efforts but that's a little out of scope. It still works just fine though.

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In fact the only other time I 'had' to call customer service was when my BU Jack plane tote and knob were rather plain looking and it was bugging me. I felt silly calling and saying 'I would like a new tote and knob because the one I got was rather plain' but Hal sent me replacements right away, along with prepaid shipping for the old ones!

[Pete Taran]

Rob,

As a long time Six Sigma Zealot, my zealotry can't let slide your incorrect quotation of the facts. True Six Sigma is not 99.7%, that's not even 3 Sigma (regardless of if you are looking at long or short term capability). True Six Sigma means that there are only 3 defects in a million opportunities. More like 99.999999% without defects. In my experience, it's very rare that a place like Lee Valley even attains 2 Sigma as there are just two many things to go wrong in the manufacturing process. Each manufacturing step is an opportunity for a defect, and since the yield of each step is multiplied by the yield of the next to get Rolled Throughput Yield, you can never even come close to true Six Sigma performance.

As you correctly state, there are a lot of ISO factories that produce a lot of defects. Having a standardized process for manufacturing means little if you don't follow it or implement investigations as to why failures occur when they do happen.

[James Pallas]

For what it's worth and I'm no machinist. I have five LV planes from jointer to block and based on this thread I checked them all with what I have, an engineers square and a straight edge. The only problem I found was some glue residue or something similar on the block plane. I fail to see what good it does to present this thread when the simplest way to an end is to contact LV and problem solved. I'm sure it would be the same with LN. I'm not a SME on this stuff but was in my career a SME on other things. Easiest way to an end is the shortest way in 99.7 percent of the issues. Works almost every time.
Jim

[george wilson]

For what it's worth,ISO means NOTHING except that a factory has agreed to maintain their tools,dies,and equipment according to the guide lines that the particular ISO grade that they selected provide. There are different ISO guidelines. Some much more stringent than others.

At least that's what a machinist friend,who runs a machine shop in Hampton's NASA,tells me.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Lets be careful here folks about touting unsubstantiated "facts". As for measuring with an engineers square, be careful. If it has been dropped, mishandled, or is one of several brands with no reference made to a established quality standard the square itself can be out of square a few thousandths of an inch. It is worthwhile to take even the best quality engineers squares and test them for accuracy. Personally, I keep my precision straight edge, accurate engineers squares, test gages, and one set of calipers for reference and test only. They are carefully stored to ensure they don't see general use and don't get damaged. I periodically test for accuracy against an established standard. It is really easy to unwittingly knock precision measuring tools out of accuracy.

[William Fretwell]

First of all, I doubt that General leaves castings outside for two years when normalizing will serve the same function at a fraction of the cost of tying up two years worth of casting production. They're making saws, not wine.

.

Yes.They.DO. Rob you can theorise about something you know nothing about so you feel more comfortable, but quite frankly it's ridiculous. It was a stated part of their manufacturing in their brochure when I bought my table saw.

[Simon MacGowen]

Ok, here is what I found out:

1) All my Veritas planes (shooting, custom, LAJ, and low angle smooth -- can't measure squareness for the jointer and bevel-up smooth for obvious reasons) are square. I won't use the term dead square as a woodworker and I am no machinist. I used three different Veritas precision squares for the checking, one of which is a "reference" square, meaning it is not used for day-to-day jobs in the shop. Engineer's squares are not necessarily accurate enough.

2) All the soles are confirmed straight and flat, using a 24" steel straight edge and a feeler gauge set (0.001") from LVT (made in USA). Again, I am not saying the kind of dead straightness and flatness that a machinist may demand. I am a woodworker.

I did this out of curiosity, not needs, because as I stated, I have built so many furniture pieces with these planes at various stages that I never saw a problem when the finished pieces were measured against their squareness or flatness.

Simon
PS These planes have been with me from 2 years to well over 12 years, after ditching most of my woodies.

[Kees Heiden]

As you all might understand, I rushed out to the shop and put my DIN certified precision straightedge on the bottom of the wooden planes I made last winter. Excrement! Some of them are not totally flat anymore! What to do? Send them back?

( I hope you can forgive me a little bit of lighthearted sarcasm)

[Jeff Ranck]

I always thought that all the ISO standard ensured is that if you made it incorrectly, you made it incorrectly every single time. In other words, it goes to consistency not correctness.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Dead flat, dead square, as were my Veritas bevel up jointer, smoother, and jack.
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Edit: my shooting plane is from the first day of release, so it is likely the first batch. My jointer, jack, and smoother are all well-used and dropped once or twice. Measured with Incra guaranteed square and a LV aluminum straight edge.

Conspiracy theory- What if all the Veritas straight edges are intentionally made a little bit off to hide the fact that their planes are not flat. ...and yes, I'm kidding. This being the internet, someone will take it seriously. Rob Lee is also spraying us with chemtrails to make us buy his tools. He sprays my house more than others apparently.

[Simon MacGowen]

Conspiracy theory- What if all the Veritas straight edges are intentionally made a little bit off to hide the fact that their planes are not flat.

Quick, I need to borrow my neighbor's Bridge City straight edge to check mine!!! Should I also check the precision squares? :-) :-)

Simon

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Quick, I need to borrow my neighbor's Bridge City straight edge to check mine!!! Should I also check the precision squares? :-) :-)

Simon

You just triggered the Veritas Chem Trail Squad over your house. Within hours you will be online buying more tools and have no recollection of this conversation. Their motto: "We keep flyin' so you keep buyin'."

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[Rob Luter]

Yes.They.DO. Rob you can theorise about something you know nothing about so you feel more comfortable, but quite frankly it's ridiculous. It was a stated part of their manufacturing in their brochure when I bought my table saw.

Then their operations guy should be fired. I've been in manufacturing for 35 years and tying up two years worth of WIP castings so Mother Nature can normalize them is ridiculous.

[Simon MacGowen]

Then their operations guy should be fired. I've been in manufacturing for 35 years and tying up two years worth of WIP castings so Mother Nature can normalize them is ridiculous.

Are we talking about General/General International? I couldn't find anything on its website about this topic. It does sound like a ridiculous practice and I hope it can be proved or disproved by something like SNOPES.

Simon

[Frederick Skelly]

Are we talking about General/General International? I couldn't find anything on its website about this topic. It does sound like a ridiculous practice and I hope it can be proved or disproved by something like SNOPES.

Simon

I wonder if Customer Service or Tech Support would answer that question? If the company thinks that doing this is a selling point, they'd surely tell their folks on the phone so they could brag about it. Just a thought....

[Malcolm McLeod]

Are we talking about General/General International? I couldn't find anything on its website about this topic. It does sound like a ridiculous practice and I hope it can be proved or disproved by something like SNOPES.

Simon

I thought this thread was a Veritas bashing thread?!?!? :confused: ...Must all bashing be so misconscrewed?


Sorry, Hasin - - I know you didn't mean it to devolve into this, but I couldn't resist.:)

[allen long]

Yes, that is the issue I had when NASA Marshall Space Flight Center (MSFC) decided they were going to be ISI 9000 compliant. This is especially problematic given that the standard is geared toward consistent manufacturing processes of commercial quatities. NASA is geared toward R&D and the building large single units (Hubble telescope) or a very low numbe of units (Space shuttle). Even the boosters for the shuttle were manufactured in very limited numbers with much of the work accomplished by hand.

MSFC had the ability to screw up a free lunch.

[Jason Dean]

There is no such thing as a defect free manufacturing process. The difference between good companies and bad ones comes down to how they handle defects when they arise.

Just the fact that the OP has direct feedback and attention from the company president tells me all I need to know.

[Frederick Skelly]

There is no such thing as a defect free manufacturing process. The difference between good companies and bad ones comes down to how they handle defects when they arise.

Just the fact that the OP has direct feedback and attention from the company president tells me all I need to know.

+1 Well said.

[Hasin Haroon]

There is no such thing as a defect free manufacturing process. The difference between good companies and bad ones comes down to how they handle defects when they arise.

Just the fact that the OP has direct feedback and attention from the company president tells me all I need to know.

Well said Jason.

[Stewie Simpson]

Regarding the recent Rowden messaging, it's probably just David Savage (who works for them) expressing the same opinion he had 3 years ago and times before that: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?212084-David-Savage-on-bench-planes
He prefers lie Nielsen and Clifton and likes to share his opinion. If you'd like more of it, you can buy his DVDs.


David Savage on bench planes

There are about 15 student benches in the workshop and if I look under each of them we would find either a Clifton plane or a Lie Nielsen plane. We have had Veritas planes in the workshop, they were fashionable at one time, but we have had real problems with them maintaining absolute flatness of the sole over a period of time. This may well have been a manufacturing problem that they've overcome but we haven't seen more recently manufactured planes in order to test them so we cannot recommend Veritas at the moment.

The other crucial element to consider is the blade. Lie Nielsen offers an A2 cryogenically treated blade. This, in my experience, is a blade which will hold an edge for a very long time. However it will not take as sharp an edge as I would like. I've spent over 30 years working with high carbon steel blades. In my experience they take a much sharper edge than is possible with the A2 steel. A high carbon steel edge is keener, more sharp, but it needs sharpening more often. The very best blades for planes, in my opinion, are manufactured by Clifton. These are forged welded high carbon steel blades that come close to the qualities of the very best Sheffield steel.

Clifton bench planes made in Sheffield are less expensive than the Lie Nielsen equivalent. I see students every year buying Lie Nielson simply because it is more expensive. They think by paying a little more they getting a better tool. I think they're mistaken. If I were buying bench planes now they would all be made by Clifton.





The opinions of David Savage are worthwhile listening too, when you have look at his bio.

David Savage has been a designer and maker of fine furniture for over 30 years. Born and raised in the 1950's, in Bridlington, Yorkshire, in England, David was surrounded by his parents' love of arts and crafts. He found good fortune favoured his application to the Ruskin School of Drawing and Fine Art, at the University of Oxford, where his studies eventually led to a further three years post graduate study at the Royal Academy Schools in Picadilly London. Here he was fortunate to study under Edward Bawden and Peter Greenham.

[Mike Brady]

To the OP, I extend these questions: Have you checked the squareness of a workpiece prepared with the new plane and your shooting board? Is your shooting board squareness subjected to the same standard as you applied to this new plane? If not, what good is a different plane going to make? You realize, I am sure, that the blade's squareness to the workpiece is really the only thing that matters. How you achieve and maintain that depends on your technique and how well made your shooting board is; as well as a reasonably well made plane.

[Jerry Olexa]

I am not an expert in these matters, but it seems to me squareness is a critically, vital important part of a shooting square..They LV have an excellent reputation..Im sure they will adjust and make it right>>>

[Stewie Simpson]

David Savage's preference for a traditional high carbon steel are no different to my own approach, as posted recently on the Aussie Forum.

I wont be increasing the hardness of steel on my earlier manufactured chisels and plane irons. I have a personal preference for a tool steel that can be worked easily on the stone, that wont force me away from using natural honing stones , that wont make it more difficult to raise a burred edge, that when required can have its longevity of the edge improved upon by simply increasing its secondary bevel by up to 5 degrees.

Improving the longevity of the edge by applying a steeper bevel is nothing new. Most bench chisels are supplied a flat primary bevel angle of 25 degrees. It is then left to the user to increase that bevel angle via a secondary bevel to a nominal range of 28- 30 degrees, or 32 - 35 degrees for mortise chisels. Parring chisels being the exception with a primary bevel of 20 degrees.

Bevel down plane irons are no exception to this rule, generally supplied with the similar manufactured bevel angle of 25 degrees, requiring a steeper secondary bevel to improve the longevity of cutting edge.

Most of the work to apply that secondary bevel is done via the stone, invariably starting with a coarse stone, a medium stone, and ending with a finer grit stone. The requirement for a tool steel that can be easily worked on the stone, that will show tell tale signs of a burred edge being formed, have traditionally been a pre requisite within the type of tool steel required within woodworking. If we select a time period of post WW2, the suggestion that steel producers did not have the knowledge or know how to produce a more wear resistance tool steel than of 01 and W1 is rather questionable, given the fact that molten steel technology during that same time period was well advanced when compared to decades prior. More likely, those same steel producers were well in touch with the requirements of the professional woodworker, and were supplying them with a tool steel that best met their needs. Very few would disagree with the fact that 01 steel can still provide a slightly superior cutting edge to that being offered as an alternative on today's market.

I have little knowledge on pm steel, but can add some comment from what I have read regarding A2 steel. Online tests comparing the longevity of the cutting edge to 01 steel do favor A2. One should bear in mind a some important factors. 1st , that A2 steel requires a higher 32-35 degree secondary bevel to form an edge that's not prone to premature failure. 2nd, results by the tool manufacturers make no mention if the secondary bevel angle on the 01 steel was worked to a similar 32-35 degree secondary bevel to allow a fair comparison. 3rd, being a more wear resistant steel A2 will need additional time to be honed compared to 01 steel. 4th, water stones are recommended by the tool manufacturer to work A2 steel. 5th. 01 steel can be honed on either water or oil stones.

[Simon MacGowen]

To the OP, I extend these questions: Have you checked the squareness of a workpiece prepared with the new plane and your shooting board? Is your shooting board squareness subjected to the same standard as you applied to this new plane? If not, what good is a different plane going to make? You realize, I am sure, that the blade's squareness to the workpiece is really the only thing that matters. How you achieve and maintain that depends on your technique and how well made your shooting board is; as well as a reasonably well made plane.

Actually, the squareness of the side to the sole is important...in that if the manufacturer says it is square (subject to whatever tolerance stated) then it matters that such specification is held up to when the new plane arrives. Of course, such promise of squareness doesn't guarantee the result of the work as you pointed out, which depends on skills.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

The opinions of David Savage are worthwhile listening too, when you have look at his bio.

David Savage has been a designer and maker of fine furniture for over 30 years. Born and raised in the 1950's, in Bridlington, Yorkshire, in England, David was surrounded by his parents' love of arts and crafts. He found good fortune favoured his application to the Ruskin School of Drawing and Fine Art, at the University of Oxford, where his studies eventually led to a further three years post graduate study at the Royal Academy Schools in Picadilly London. Here he was fortunate to study under Edward Bawden and Peter Greenham.


I agree that David Savage is a very skilled and talented woodworker. I have switched to A2 and PMV-11 (since the latter was released) and have not seen any difference in my work or sharpening effort. Does O1 iron give me a keener edge? May be, but that gives me no reason to ditch the A2 as I work mostly with hardwood and endgrain work. Sharp enough is my motto as I am a woodworker, not a sharpener. Don't go crazy about sharpness!

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

Lets be careful here folks about touting unsubstantiated "facts". As for measuring with an engineers square, be careful. If it has been dropped, mishandled, or is one of several brands with no reference made to a established quality standard the square itself can be out of square a few thousandths of an inch. It is worthwhile to take even the best quality engineers squares and test them for accuracy. Personally, I keep my precision straight edge, accurate engineers squares, test gages, and one set of calipers for reference and test only. They are carefully stored to ensure they don't see general use and don't get damaged. I periodically test for accuracy against an established standard. It is really easy to unwittingly knock precision measuring tools out of accuracy.

Dave's point should not be overlooked, it is extremely important to make certain that straight edges are well kept if they are used for checking precision tools.

First thing that comes to mind when one talks of planes being out of flat..,,how are they stored?

[Derek Cohen]

...
Conspiracy theory- What if all the Veritas straight edges are intentionally made a little bit off to hide the fact that their planes are not flat. ...and yes, I'm kidding. This being the internet, someone will take it seriously. ...

Malcolm, it is TRUE!

I know for a fact that the Veritas factory uses magic squares made by Chris Wong (Time Life Tools). They are ABSOLUTELY square EVERY TIME!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB0MBGiX8TQ

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frank Martin]

I have owned probably around 20 different Veritas planes over the last dozen years or so. Still own likely around 10. No problems with any one of them.

Responses to this thread prove LV's well deserved customer loyalty. They make excellent products backed by excellent customer service. Not sure what else we can ask for, other than perhaps some local LV stores close to where we live.

[Derek Cohen]

About David Savage ...

I have this love-hate relationship with David. What I love about David is that he is thought-provoking. He makes "interesting" furniture - the progressive style is a bit too extreme for my taste, but he works for a market that is high end and will pay top dollar for unique pieces. He has a definite signature (styling) to his work, which makes it easily identifiable as a David Savage design. This is important in his world. Many other bespoke designer-makers cultivate this. I like his taste in cars (Morgan) and I think he lives in a beautiful part of the world (his Rowdan Farm Workshops are in North Devon, UK). I also like that he mixes power with hand tools, and this is done in a sensitive and sensible way - it is about building a design with appropriate methods, not the slavish adherence to some religious dogma. I would do a furniture design/building course with him in a flash (if I could afford it - his courses are seriously expensive).

But David is also terribly up himself. Hey, if you don't make a noise, then you will not be heard. And he needs to be heard to gain a name that sells furniture and attracts students to his school. So he is opinionated - is he ever opinionated! :) I get his emailed newsletter, which is almost weekly. At present it is rolling over old newsletters. He has to be heard even if there is nothing new to say. He made a name as a rebel and individualist - he rebels against many things that I agree with him, such as the integrity of a design and construction methods. However, he does it in a way that puts my teeth on edge - there is no soft-soaping anything. He is blunt. When one has read him for years (or less if you are insightful or sensible), you are no longer taken in by his rhetoric, and recognise that it is all showmanship. The problem is that he has published about hand tools, and the noise he makes here is taken by some as gospel. It is nothing of the sort - it is all showmanship. He will say that he is an independent reviewer, but his bias shines through: he is enamoured by the "old world", by which he means Sheffield in its heyday. He grudgingly gives recognition to the new manufacturers, and will find fault with their designs, steel and manufacturing ... because it is important to demonstrate that he is independent, individual, a rebel with a cause. There will always be a kernel of wisdom and truth in what he has to say (he is experienced and knowledgeable), but one has to dig through the dung to get it. As I said I like and respect David, but I am cautious when I read him.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Malcolm, it is TRUE!

I know for a fact that the Veritas factory uses magic squares made by Chris Wong (Time Life Tools). They are ABSOLUTELY square EVERY TIME!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB0MBGiX8TQ

Regards from Perth

Derek

I'll take two of them! That's great, thanks for the laugh.

[Frederick Skelly]

David is also terribly up himself. Hey, if you don't make a noise, then you will not be heard. And he needs to be heard to gain a name that sells furniture and attracts students to his school. So he is opinionated - is he ever opinionated! :) I get his emailed newsletter, which is almost weekly. At present it is rolling over old newsletters. He has to be heard even if there is nothing new to say. He made a name as a rebel and individualist - he rebels against many things that I agree with him, such as the integrity of a design and construction methods. However, he does it in a way that puts my teeth on edge - there is no soft-soaping anything. He is blunt. When one has read him for years (or less if you are insightful or sensible), you are no longer taken in by his rhetoric, and recognise that it is all showmanship. The problem is that he has published about hand tools, and the noise he makes here is taken by some as gospel. It is nothing of the sort - it is all showmanship. He will say that he is an independent reviewer, but his bias shines through: he is enamoured by the "old world", by which he means Sheffield in its heyday. He grudgingly gives recognition to the new manufacturers, and will find fault with their designs, steel and manufacturing ... because it is important to demonstrate that he is independent, individual, a rebel with a cause. There will always be a kernel of wisdom and truth in what he has to say (he is experienced and knowledgeable), but one has to dig through the dung to get it. As I said I like and respect David, but I am cautious when I read him.

This gave me some good insight and a perspective that I hadn't considered. As always, thank you Derek!
Fred

[Kesh Ikuma]

Hasin - Did you by any chance quantified the out-of-squaredness with feeler gauges?

I just received mine (probably from the same batch as yours) and mine too is also out of square (a slightly acute just like yours). I tested with my machinist square and feeler gauges and noted that the widest gap is <0.006" (the thinnest gauge I have couldn't slip under). Is comparable to yours? I don't know what the expected tolerance is... (both manufacturing and practical use)

[Andrew Pitonyak]

As you all might understand, I rushed out to the shop and put my DIN certified precision straightedge on the bottom of the wooden planes I made last winter. Excrement! Some of them are not totally flat anymore! What to do? Send them back?

( I hope you can forgive me a little bit of lighthearted sarcasm)

Obviously they are no longer useful, happy to take the entire collection off your hands to remove your stress. I won't insult you by offering you money or to cover shipping...

I have not used many wooden planes, but I vaguely remember seeing a procedure for fixing the sole. Then again, I think that it was not as much because they expected it to go out of flat, as it was to deal with wear and tear...

My Local woodcraft offered a class to build a wooden hand plane, including work with the blade of some sort. Sadly, insufficient people signed up for the class.

What I really want to do is to build a hand plane for cutting a dado for drawer bottoms.

And, if you have a problem with your Lee Valley Stuff, contact them, they will take care of you.

[Chris Hachet]

Obviously they are no longer useful, happy to take the entire collection off your hands to remove your stress. I won't insult you by offering you money or to cover shipping...

I have not used many wooden planes, but I vaguely remember seeing a procedure for fixing the sole. Then again, I think that it was not as much because they expected it to go out of flat, as it was to deal with wear and tear...

My Local woodcraft offered a class to build a wooden hand plane, including work with the blade of some sort. Sadly, insufficient people signed up for the class.

What I really want to do is to build a hand plane for cutting a dado for drawer bottoms.

And, if you have a problem with your Lee Valley Stuff, contact them, they will take care of you.Lee Valley makes one, I am highly tempted to send them some green myself...and yes, I would also like to try my hand at lane making at some point. I did not know the plane making class at the local wood craft had been cancelled for lack of interest.

[Phil Mueller]

FYI, received my Veritas left hand shooting plane today. According to my Starrett square and both Veritas and Woodpecker straight edges, it is absolutely dead on 90 degrees and flat across the full length - couldn't get a .0015 feeler guage (smallest I own) under the straight edges anywhere along the full length (left/right sides & center of sole).

Nice job Rob...thanks. I'm going to enjoy using this.

[Hasin Haroon]

That's good to hear Phil. That's been my experience with my other veritas planes, so I'm sure I just got unlucky. I sent mine back at the end of last week. Not sure if a replacement is on its way now or they will send it out when they receive my defective one. It's a tool I really look forward to using, so I'm waiting like a child waiting for Christmas morning right now. If I don't hear anything or receive any notifications in a few days I'll call CS for an update.

Kesh, I didn't not try it with a feeler gauge, as mine was very well beyond the acceptable tolerances, easily in the hundredth of an inch range rather than thousandth. When I spoke to customer service I was told that .005" was the tolerance for these planes, so at .006" I wouldn't worry about it, I don't think that would affect my work...but of course if it bothers you their customer service is top notch. Just be prepared to wait for another one to get shipped out to you.

[Kesh Ikuma]

Hasin - Thanks. I actually shot them an email on Sunday showing them some pics with the observed gap, and by Monday PM they already acknowledged and agreed to send me a replacement. Top notch customer service, indeed. But yeah, .005" tolerance, I can believe it, and mine happened to be right on the fence. They could've have just told me, and that would be just fine with me (as it seemed to work fine when I tried it), but it sure was nice for them to set up the exchange immediately without a fuss.

[Keith Outten]

There is no such thing as a defect free manufacturing process. The difference between good companies and bad ones comes down to how they handle defects when they arise.

Just the fact that the OP has direct feedback and attention from the company president tells me all I need to know.

Defect Free Manufacturing is the norm when parts are produced per the product specifications. For instance I have accepted cracks in nuclear plant primary reactor coolant piping because the length was acceptable per the engineering specifications, the cracks were not defects they were discontinuities.

First, the term defect is defined as an unacceptable discontinuity per the product specifications.
Second, a discontinuity is an acceptable condition when its characteristics fall within the acceptable range of the manufacturing specifications.

I suspect that Lee Valley often replaces tools that are within their production specifications just because a customer complains. This IMO is the mark of a company that cares about their customers even when their customers are wrong or lack the experience to evaluate their purchase.

You guys are killing me with your attempts to measure within 0.001" in a woodworking shop using uncertified M&TE with temperatures that are all over the map. Get some training :)
.

[Pat Barry]

accepted cracks in nuclear plant primary reactor coolant piping because the length was acceptable per the engineering specifications, the cracks were not defects they were discontinuities..
Wow, that's a scary thought if the cracks weren't just discontinuities

[Simon MacGowen]

You guys are killing me with your attempts to measure within 0.001" in a woodworking shop using uncertified M&TE with temperatures that are all over the map. Get some training :)
.
100% agreed and that's why dead square and dead straight are terms I never use to describe my process, setting or work -- as a woodworker. Wood moves as we all know and dead flatness -- even in the case of man-made lumber -- is almost non-existent over time.

I couldn't even trust my precision squares and feeler gauges as being as accurate as the measuring tools Lee Valley uses in its production shops. If my straight edge and feeler gauge said my sole was 0.006" off, I wouldn't say for sure it was outside the specified tolerance. In fact, I wouldn't return any of my Veritas tools as long as they produced the results I wanted, regardless of if they were inside their respective tolerance limits or not. So far, I have produced great results in my woodwork from the Veritas planes I use and that's what really matters. Even with hand tools that are dead-on with the spec., many hand tool users fail to joint an edge true and square or put together an assembly that is square and out of wind! Your skills count more that what you hold in your hands (and that is why Paul Sellers can flatten a long board with a #4 while many still struggle the same job with a #7).

Simon

[Keith Outten]

The decision concerning what is a discontinuity and what is a defect is an engineering responsibility. Everything we manufacture is built to a project tolerance...plus or minus some dimension that is cast in concrete in the project specifications that are usually developed based on a national code. The tighter the tolerance the more the product costs to produce. Can you imagine a utility trailer that was manufactured to a tolerance of +- 0.004", it would be so expensive that only the federal government could afford to purchase one.

Perfect doesn't exist, period. Even if you could machine a perfect part there is no such thing as a perfect measuring instrument as they are all manufactured to a specification with an acceptable engineering specified tolerance. Note that in many cases the temperature that a part and the instrument used to measure it are often taken into consideration by engineering when they produce a specification. Temperature and humidity controlled Measuring and Test Equipment (M&TE) labs exist to provide a space used to inspect very high tolerance parts when a project requires that level of quality.

Now since wood is not an engineered material there are way to many variables to consider to even produce a high tolerance product. The environment where any tree grows is so widely variable and uncontrolled it just isn't possible to specify any high tolerance material characteristics.

Not one word of what I have said here is my opinion. There are national codes and organizations that make the decisions concerning the proper use and application of M&TE. My training was provided in accordance with the American Society of Non-Destructive Testing of which I was a certified Level III Examiner for many years. I was certified to develop inspection procedures and create certification tests for Level I and II Inspectors. I worked in Quality Control and as a Construction Engineer in maintenance and construction of nuclear and fossil plants and the construction of nuclear Navy vessels as well as general construction projects like bridges and large welding fabrication. What my experience and education has taught me over decades of working very large projects is that when there is a doubt about the proper use of M&TE consult a Master Machinist if you can find one.
.

[Brian Holcombe]

Keith makes an excellent point, you might consider your checking tools before considering the plane to be out of square or out of flatness. I have a certified granite checking block and a precision straightedge (not the one I use as a winding stick, but another made for planes), outside of that I don't own precision checking squares. Precision squares meaning checking blocks for squareness, not brass or steel squares, double squares, etc which could easily be out of square by .001-.002" and I would never notice.

So to assume the plane is out of square is to assume the square is square, where the square can be out of square the plane square. :D

Even the table of Bridgeport mill is considered perfectly fine and acceptable if it's only out by a few thousands over the course of its travel. (A few is 2, not 5 or 10).

[Derek Cohen]

The 7" Vesper Square has a maximum deviation of 0.010mm or 0.0004".



https://www.vespertools.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/SigSeriesSmall-try-square-800x494.jpg (https://www.vespertools.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/SigSeriesSmall-try-square.jpg)

Regards from Perth

Derek (putting in a plug for Chris Vesper :) )

[James Pallas]

Keith has this one nailed. I can picture the smile on that master machinists face when you tell him that you checked his work with an "engineers square" and a feeler gauge and found it faulty.
Jim

[Keith Outten]

That's great Derek but its a tool that is used visually and you can't see 0.0004" with an unaided human eye. Even with a feeler gauge, if you had one that accurate, I really doubt you can apply that level inspection quality on a piece of wood or steel for that matter. Its a great instrument but not practical to use in a woodworking shop.

[Derek Cohen]

Keith, you do know I was teasing? :)

Chris makes superb tools, but the pleasure lies in using them, and knowing how well they are made, not in their actual accuracy.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Keith Outten]

I once machined a plywood template on my CNC Router that was used to provide a boundary for some tradesmen to lay marble around a circle. There was another company who was machining a ten foot diameter bronze medallion to be installed in the circle. One of the carpenters used his measuring tape to check my template and decided that my template was out of tolerance. I couldn't help but laugh at him and told him that he needed a more accurate measuring instrument if he was going to reject my template and he didn't have a clue what I meant. Although the template was made of plywood it was way more accurate than any measuring tape :)

He made it his mission to be on the job the day we installed the bronze medallion and could not believe how close the fit was as he had decided that my template was too small. He didn't know enough to realize the the flat end of his measuring tape wasn't the best way to measure an inside radius. He also didn't understand that the unaided human eye with 20/20 vision can only discern measurements to 1/64th of an inch. The cumulative error of his instrument, technique and physical limitations was beyond his expertise :)
.

[Keith Outten]

Derek,

I do now :)

I agree with you about the pleasure of using very high quality tools and machines. It soothes the soul, even though we know that it is all to often overkill in a home shop.
.

[Kesh Ikuma]

This thread is a treasure trove of great info. Thank you for all the insights.

To defend myself a bit, here were my train of thoughts: "Oh crap, I can see light through... it seems to be a large gap... (hunting for feeler gauge) oh but it's only ~0.005"... but I've seen that thread on SMC and his pics didn't look as bad as mine..." and the rest is history.

I'm actually not very picky when it comes to precision. I've been shooting with #7 as I bought off eBay (almost as is, only rust removal) and it has been working fine for me (even with a cracked levercap if you recall my earlier thread). (This Veritas plane however put a whole new perspective on shooting experience...) So, this was more of did-I-get-what-I-paid-for issue for me. This plane is by far the most expensive tool I purchased to date (including all my (bought used) power tools). So, I hope you can see my sensitiveness to it. If I knew Veritas' tolerance is 0.005" I probably have never bothered to contact them. Heck, I might even cancel the replacement based on what I learned on this thread.

Now, for my squares being truly square, probably not. But I'd like to think a brand new 2" square from LV (which I happened to buy at the same time as the plane) has got to be pretty accurate due to its size.

What is curious to me now is the validity of the "light" test for flatness or squareness. Do we even need to attain "no light" precision on our woodwork? How much light do you allow to come through when you run a straight edge or square against a piece?
I guess high precision in joinery work would make your life a whole lot easier. I was genuinely surprised how small the gap was when it appeared so much light is coming through...

[Hasin Haroon]

Kesh, I don't think you need to defend your return to anyone but yourself. As for the light test, in general with my planes I check them across the sole at various locations along the sole. I will usually see a little bit of light at various locations coming through, but as long as it isn't consistent along the length it doesn't bother me. As for the shooting plane I received, the gap progressively got wider across the plane (as out of square things tend to do).

As for the engineering tolerances, most of us know that there is no such thing as dead square for our tools. Having said that, I think it is a little bit of a stretch to suggest that we need to go to a professional machinist every time we want to test a tool. E.g., I have a few 'precision' squares and straightedges, claimed to be within 0.002" along the entire length, carefully stored and never dropped. So if I rip a piece of wood, test the edge for flatness and test a couple of my squares to see if the lines diverge or not, I can be satisfied that my square is square enough (or not) for good woodworking results. If I then test a plane and find it well out of square, all the way along the length, I can be pretty certain that plane is out of square.

Unfortunately it just so happened that the only planes that I want to be as close to square as possible are my shooting plane and shoulder planes and skew rabbet, as these are the only ones that matter (I don't use my other planes for shooting often). I do own the other planes mentioned, and they pass my square test, but the shooting plane didn't.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... the carpenters used his measuring tape to check my template ...

I dimly recall a 2nd hand reference that said tapes and rules in the USA are only required to be accurate to +/- 3/16" in 6 feet. The article primarily looked at the legal aspects of measuring - i.e. if I sell you a 2x4 or a cubic yard of gravel, does my tape say its big enough, but yours doesn't(?). Same applies to all weights and measures devices involved in custody transfer situations.

'Close' only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and atomic bombs. And tape measures - - which explains a lot about home building: 3 guys (2 of 'em blind), with 5 different tapes, chalk for a marker, and a CS with no bearings left in it, are building your next house right now. And you wonder why the front door sticks.:)

It has been too long since I read the article, but the lesson for me has always been if I want accuracy in a project, I use the same tape or rule for every measurement possible. It doesn't guarantee that the parts will be the right size - only that a given measurement will be the same. (OK, OK! ...Almost the same.)

And for what its worth, I'd be more inclined to use a LN plane body to check my squares for square than the other way around.

[Brian Holcombe]

Always best to use a measuring tape only when the actual measurement need not be precision. I use a measuring tape regularly to make a standard and use the standard as the guide for repeating. Making frames, for instance, no one cares if they're 40-5/8" when ideally they should be 40-9/16", but they need to all be the same after the first is made.



The 7" Vesper Square has a maximum deviation of 0.010mm or 0.0004".



https://www.vespertools.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/SigSeriesSmall-try-square-800x494.jpg (https://www.vespertools.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/SigSeriesSmall-try-square.jpg)
Regards from Perth

Derek (putting in a plug for Chris Vesper :) )



I know you're putting me on a bit.....but I can't help but defend my position since you're putting words in my mouth, so to speak. :D

What I'm not saying is that accurate squares don't exist, they obviously do. What I am saying is that you dont know how accurate it is, you're assuming and most everyone is going to make an assumption of accuracy at some point and verify them through repeatable results. Even a machinist is not likely to check his checking devices, but he may well check his mics and calipers against his checking devices.

When I worked in the machine shop, the thing you never did was change micrometers mid way through a job, if you're checking a tolerance with a mic you use that same mic every time until you are complete. Even if your mics were all set to the same standard it would be poor practice.

[Phil Mueller]

I guess I said "dead flat" in my previous post. I agree, should have said "pretty darn flat for wood work". I have a friend that machines parts for the government...titanium parts for satellites, special forces night vision goggle frames, and other stuff he probably doesn't talk about. I suppose he could tell me if my plane was even more darn flat...but, your point is well taken...doesn't really matter to that degree.

Given your experience Keith, and what my friend needs to adhere to, makes you kind of wonder where the phrase "close enough for government work" comes from :eek:

[Ron Kellison]

You paint with a pretty broad brush here.

First of all, I doubt that General leaves castings outside for two years when normalizing will serve the same function at a fraction of the cost of tying up two years worth of casting production. They're making saws, not wine.

Secondly, the fact that a non-compliant product left the factory indicates a breakdown in the Quality Management System (QMS), but not a lack of understanding of the ISO standard or a quality management system. A properly run ISO registered QMS anticipates that non-compliant product will be produced. Even six sigma zealots will agree that the combined six sigma under the bell curve only covers 99.7% of production. What's really important (and an indication of how their QMS is working) is whether they conduct a root cause analysis and deploy corrective actions.

I'm on Page 2 of a 5-page thread so perhaps I'll find this mentioned in a later post. In the meantime, I have to point out to Mr. Fretwell that General (Canada) is no longer manufacturing equipment in Drummondville, QC. The International line is the only remaining element of a Canadian company that made great machinery! Secondly, I worked for LV off/on for several years between retirements that didn't take, simply because I loved the woodworking products they make. I'm confident in saying that no one cares more about quality. As I now make my living working with ISO standards, I would ask (specifically) which ISO standards are the Veritas products not meeting in terms of conformance?

[Ron Kellison]

I'll pass on another little story about LV's concern that the customer gets what they think they ordered. Shortly after I retired in 2002 (for the first time) I jumped at the opportunity to work for LV over the Christmas season, their busiest time. I already knew their product line cold, having been a customer from the very early 80s, with a customer # in the very low 6 digits. Many of the seasonal employees had never done any woodworking so they had no idea what it meant, despite instruction, to be told that they were the final QC point in the supply chain. I distinctly remember one of the old timers pulling a filled order and taking the order picker over to the warehouse row that housed such things as router bits, dowel stock, etc. The order in question involved 3' maple dowel rods. The old timer pulled the 10 maple dowel rods the picker had packed in the order and explained the that the customer expected to receive straight dowel rods and only 3 of the 10 dowel rods picked were straight. The picker asked "How do I know which ones are straight?" The old timer explained that straight was easy to determine. Take each rod, place it on the floor and roll it. If it rolls smoothly, it's straight. If it doesn't, set it aside (outside the box so no one else will pick it!) and keep going until you have enough to fill the order! As a woodworker, I had done that automatically but it was interesting to note that this QC issue had been caught by an order packer, passed on to one of the grey beards and then transmitted to the picker. I saw this same process many times in my numerous stints working for LV. They really DO care, all the way down to the person picking the order!

[Frederick Skelly]

Glad to hear this story Ron. Thanks for sharing it!
Fred

[Frank Martin]

I'll pass on another little story about LV's concern that the customer gets what they think they ordered. Shortly after I retired in 2002 (for the first time) I jumped at the opportunity to work for LV over the Christmas season, their busiest time. I already knew their product line cold, having been a customer from the very early 80s, with a customer # in the very low 6 digits. Many of the seasonal employees had never done any woodworking so they had no idea what it meant, despite instruction, to be told that they were the final QC point in the supply chain. I distinctly remember one of the old timers pulling a filled order and taking the order picker over to the warehouse row that housed such things as router bits, dowel stock, etc. The order in question involved 3' maple dowel rods. The old timer pulled the 10 maple dowel rods the picker had packed in the order and explained the that the customer expected to receive straight dowel rods and only 3 of the 10 dowel rods picked were straight. The picker asked "How do I know which ones are straight?" The old timer explained that straight was easy to determine. Take each rod, place it on the floor and roll it. If it rolls smoothly, it's straight. If it doesn't, set it aside (outside the box so no one else will pick it!) and keep going until you have enough to fill the order! As a woodworker, I had done that automatically but it was interesting to note that this QC issue had been caught by an order packer, passed on to one of the grey beards and then transmitted to the picker. I saw this same process many times in my numerous stints working for LV. They really DO care, all the way down to the person picking the order!

About caring for their customers, I completely agree based on my personal experience. In my earlier years of woodworking, before I knew any better, I asked them some questions about a product that appeared "sub standard" to me. After the conversation I was convinced the product was just fine. The Customer Service agent insisted that I could easily return if I was not happy with it. I almost had to convince him that it was not necessary. In fact, that interaction early on had a big impact on my loyalty to Lee Valley. They absolutely have me as a customer for life. I wish there were more companies like Lee Valley that cared so much about their customers, their employees and their culture. In addition to excellent tools and support, I do care a lot that they value their employees so much. In fact, if they did not, I doubt they would be able to deliver the products and the service that we enjoy.

[William Fretwell]

William, from one that has had a lot of time with the Veritas planes (I have been part of pre-production testing for many years now), I find your comments concerning. So I went to my shop and took some photos of my planes. In short, the soles were dead flat. Now keep in mind that I have had some of these planes a dozen years, such a the BU Jointer ..

356248

The LA Jack ..

356249

BU Smoother ...

356250

Here's a recent addition, the Custom #7 ...

356251

I think that you will agree that the soles are all flat - there is no light shining under the straight edge (A Starrett rule).

The proof of the pudding is in the eating - are your planes working as they should?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek your light is not positioned to shine under the ruler opposite the observation side, how do you hope to see light?
I still have not found my feeler gauges but when I first did it on my jointer the gap evoked a "good grief" that's a gap. I have had several sessions with 600 grit taped to my flat side table. The front 5 inches has now lost all 'grain' in the steel, it is very smooth. The toe back 2 inches is smooth also but more on one side. The middle gap is now smaller but I would love it to touch right behind the blade, some way off yet. Black marker shows the story and confirms the ruler. I do wonder if my recent tear out problems with some difficult black walnut is related. My Veritas planes are over 10 years old.
When I edge joint I use 2x 1000W halogen flood lights right behind the joint. I can eliminate all but a sliver of light & get a very good joint. I am interested to see if that process is easier when I eventually get the plane flat. It has become an academic exercise really at this point as my enthusiasm for bevel up planes has waned, both jointer & jack.

When I get some free time I will try some Japanese planes. My old Bailey Jack plane with a breaker and three ideal points of contact does a very good job, the adjustment is more finicky however.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi William

The photos I posted were simply to display what I did to check for light/straightness. There was no light to be seen from various angles.

I used enough light. Indeed, I would disagree that one requires "2x1000w halogen flood lights" to see relevant light. Indeed, too much light may exaggerate minor irregularities.

I am not denying your experience was different. My intention was to contrast yours with mine.

With regard flattening planes, you write: I have had several sessions with 600 grit taped to my flat side table. The front 5 inches has now lost all 'grain' in the steel, it is very smooth. The toe back 2 inches is smooth also but more on one side. The middle gap is now smaller but I would love it to touch right behind the blade, some way off yet.

William, flattening immediately behind the blade is unimportant. Flattening in front of the blade is very important. Behind the blade has no impact on the cutting action. In front of the blade is quite different, however. Are you sure you meant it the way you wrote?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Mueller]

Hasin, after a few trial runs on various scraps, I must say it is worth the wait. I modified my shooting board with a side guide ala Derek Cohen. As with Derek's design, the holes for the bolts are slotted so I can make it a good fit and adjust in the future if necessary (slots are actually hidden by the washers).

I could shoot fine with my LAJ, but this is one of those tools where the task becomes exponentially easier with excellent results.

356796

[William Fretwell]

I agree, touching just in front is more important to control the depth of cut, on a plane as long as a jointer touching behind helps also as it has more flex. Right now touching anywhere between the heel & toe would be good.
The grinding at the toe end is slow now as it's so smooth, I keep vacuuming the 600 grit during each session. I am fortunate to have these huge sanding belts to cut up. They are German made, very high quality.
The base on my BU Jack is all over the place with highs on diagonal opposites, distinct lows, while being roughly flat across it's length so I'm hopeful that will flatten out eventually.

[george wilson]

Do you guys know that you can see as little as .0001" (One TEN THOUSANDTH) of an inch of light, emerging from under a square held against a slightly out of square surface?

Many squares themselves are not made to those specifications. And,unless the surface you are checking isn't SMOOTHLY ground fine enough, light will STILL be seen under the square. LV and LN planes are certainly ground fine enough!!

It is good to have your own "Bureau of Standards" in your own shop. Mine consists of an ultimate granite straight edge 2' long,2 black granite squares(which sit upon a granite surface plate, and look like book ends),All steel squares made by Starrett and OLD Brown and Sharpe,from 2" to 24", and 3 hand flaked cast iron flat straight edges, Called "Camel Back" straight edges in the machinist trade, from 18" to 4'. And, four hand flaked cast iron surface plates, and a black granite surface plate, and a 4' precision ground steel straight edge. I left out a 6" cylindrical steel square. A number of Chris Vesper squares, too. The Vesper squares checked out o.k. against my 6" mint Starrett steel square. Chris has a cylindrical square that he uses. It sets upon a black granite surface plate,and is a very accurate type of square. Generally used in a laboratory setting.

For your information, a PINK granite surface plate is considered the ultimate, as it has a lot of quartz in it, making it harder to wear out. One, except for a small one, has not come my way. I'll never even come close to wearing out my black granite one !!!

If you want to be SURE of your findings,you need to acquire at least a few of these tools if possible. I'd say the most important things for you would be at least a few precision squares. Chris Vesper makes precision squares. I'd choose the ALL METAL versions rather than the wood inletted handle ones, as wood can swell a bit,or shrink(the swelling is what MIGHT slightly throw off the beam's squareness to the handle (Chris might argue that point! And, it is a nit picking one, as the wood isn't that thick, to be moving metal).

I have been lucky to get these precision tools for a fraction of what they retail for.The 24" squares retail about $2500.00, or so. Unfortunately the man who ran the used machinery business, where I acquired 99% o my things is going out of business tomorrow. Too bad. But I have too much stuff as it is!

Anyway, acquire a GOOD STEEL square or two for yourself. I don't mean aluminum ones either. Steel should be your choice, and NOT a cheap $15.00 import.The only thing I use one of those for is checking the squareness of the tool rest against the belt of my Square Wheel belt grinder. I could open a business of checking people's squares and straight edges for accuracy. But,I'm just too tired and HATE mailing things.

As a historical sideline,it is interesting that the ancient Egyptians used black granite to make their master measuring rule. Every year, all the carpenters had to come to the palace and have their measuring STICKS checked against the granite master. Even then, they had a bit of "Bureau of Standards", and for more things than the measuring sticks. I don't know what happened to the unlucky guy whose measuring stick wasn't accurate enough. I'm pretty sure the stick would be destroyed. I hope the owner wasn't beaten!

In the middle ages in Germany, a traveling Brew Master would arrive yearly to test the beer being made locally . He would pour a little beer on the chair he sat upon for a certain length of time. When he got up, if his pants didn't stick to the chair, the local brew master would be flogged!! I suppose they thought the beer needed to have sufficient "substance" to it to be nutritious. I know that seems like a strange way of doing things, but people had their own way of doing things back then. Medieval people were very AFRAID of clocks, for example. They thought that clocks MADE time, not just record it. They were afraid they'd get old if they hung around the clock much!! This is a true story. Don't dismiss it.

[Hasin Haroon]

Glad to hear that Phil, I've no doubt I will be chuffed with the replacement I receive. I'm going to make a new shooting board for it, and have been thinking about the shooting plane track Veritas sells, and whether it is worth it or can be easily replicated using UHMW tape instead. What does your plane ride on, and how do you find it?

[Phil Mueller]

I just used melamine covered particle board for the base (the shelving stuff you can get at the big box stores). Both it and the plane are regularely waxed. I thought about getting the track as well, but what I have now to seems to work very well. Might pick up some UHMW tape at some point.

[Adam Petersen]

Do you guys know that you can see as little as .0001" (One TEN THOUSANDTH) of an inch of light, emerging from under a square held against a slightly out of square surface?

Many squares themselves are not made to those specifications. And,unless the surface you are checking isn't SMOOTHLY ground fine enough, light will STILL be seen under the square. LV and LN planes are certainly ground fine enough!!

It is good to have your own "Bureau of Standards" in your own shop. Mine consists of an ultimate granite straight edge 2' long,2 black granite squares(which sit upon a granite surface plate, and look like book ends),All steel squares made by Starrett and OLD Brown and Sharpe,from 2" to 24", and 3 hand flaked cast iron flat straight edges, Called "Camel Back" straight edges in the machinist trade, from 18" to 4'. And, four hand flaked cast iron surface plates, and a black granite surface plate, and a 4' precision ground steel straight edge. I left out a 6" cylindrical steel square. A number of Chris Vesper squares, too. The Vesper squares checked out o.k. against my 6" mint Starrett steel square. Chris has a cylindrical square that he uses. It sets upon a black granite surface plate,and is a very accurate type of square. Generally used in a laboratory setting.

For your information, a PINK granite surface plate is considered the ultimate, as it has a lot of quartz in it, making it harder to wear out. One, except for a small one, has not come my way. I'll never even come close to wearing out my black granite one !!!

If you want to be SURE of your findings,you need to acquire at least a few of these tools if possible. I'd say the most important things for you would be at least a few precision squares. Chris Vesper makes precision squares. I'd choose the ALL METAL versions rather than the wood inletted handle ones, as wood can swell a bit,or shrink(the swelling is what MIGHT slightly throw off the beam's squareness to the handle (Chris might argue that point! And, it is a nit picking one, as the wood isn't that thick, to be moving metal).

I have been lucky to get these precision tools for a fraction of what they retail for.The 24" squares retail about $2500.00, or so. Unfortunately the man who ran the used machinery business, where I acquired 99% o my things is going out of business tomorrow. Too bad. But I have too much stuff as it is!

Anyway, acquire a GOOD STEEL square or two for yourself. I don't mean aluminum ones either. Steel should be your choice, and NOT a cheap $15.00 import.The only thing I use one of those for is checking the squareness of the tool rest against the belt of my Square Wheel belt grinder. I could open a business of checking people's squares and straight edges for accuracy. But,I'm just too tired and HATE mailing things.

As a historical sideline,it is interesting that the ancient Egyptians used black granite to make their master measuring rule. Every year, all the carpenters had to come to the palace and have their measuring STICKS checked against the granite master. Even then, they had a bit of "Bureau of Standards", and for more things than the measuring sticks. I don't know what happened to the unlucky guy whose measuring stick wasn't accurate enough. I'm pretty sure the stick would be destroyed. I hope the owner wasn't beaten!

In the middle ages in Germany, a traveling Brew Master would arrive yearly to test the beer being made locally . He would pour a little beer on the chair he sat upon for a certain length of time. When he got up, if his pants didn't stick to the chair, the local brew master would be flogged!! I suppose they thought the beer needed to have sufficient "substance" to it to be nutritious. I know that seems like a strange way of doing things, but people had their own way of doing things back then. Medieval people were very AFRAID of clocks, for example. They thought that clocks MADE time, not just record it. They were afraid they'd get old if they hung around the clock much!! This is a true story. Don't dismiss it.

I gotta say, I love your posts. They are so fun to read!

[William Fretwell]

Thanks George. While I can not justify anything like your test equipment I am very familiar with tolerances and measuring. My classic science training was excellent. My engineer father worked to 1/10 of a thousandth of an inch. Scratches on stainless steel only have to be as deep as the wavelength of light to be visible. I am quite familiar with laser diffraction particle sizing for medical uses, particle sizing in injections etc.
Luckily wood is friendlier than metal and moves more. The gap under my ruler was of the order of "you can see what the neibours are doing!" I do have a very good metal machinist square and some decent straight steel rulers. I would not fuss over a sliver of light.
All production has errors that we can live with as opposed to a higher tolerance we can't afford. The modern photographic lens with 20 elements is a great example. Each element has a tolerance which has a cumulative effect on the optics. The scatter graph of the final lens performance is most illuminating, making it a bit of a lottery. Sigma have developed lenses with slightly more but simpler elements giving a much tighter scatter graph and stunning performance at lower prices. I wish they made wood working tools.
LV have to keep costs down and I'm sure it's cheaper to just replace defective product than test 100%. Customers resenting being the final tester for an expensive tool is nothing new.

Interesting true story: A guy I worked with had a father with a standing order for a Rolls Royce Camargue each year. Every year after delivery he would find 30 or so small faults with the car and insist they were fixed. He was a generous man and on vacation he saw a couple on honeymoon at dinner. He sent over a bottle of excellent Champagne as a gift and thought no more about it.
When his next Rolls Royce Camarque arrived he set about finding the faults. It drove him nuts as he could not find a single one!
What he did find was a note in the glove box from the head of quality control at Rolls Royce, the lady at the dinner table, "thanks for the Champagne". He discovered later she had personally checked over his car before it left.

[Randy Karst]

Derek,
Thanks for posting this video-made my evening! ;^)
Randy

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Interesting true story: A guy I worked with had a father with a standing order for a Rolls Royce Camargue each year. Every year after delivery he would find 30 or so small faults with the car and insist they were fixed. He was a generous man and on vacation he saw a couple on honeymoon at dinner. He sent over a bottle of excellent Champagne as a gift and thought no more about it.
When his next Rolls Royce Camarque arrived he set about finding the faults. It drove him nuts as he could not find a single one!
What he did find was a note in the glove box from the head of quality control at Rolls Royce, the lady at the dinner table, "thanks for the Champagne". He discovered later she had personally checked over his car before it left.

He should have asked them to fix the one big fault- it's the ugliest car they ever made.

[Frederick Skelly]

Interesting true story: A guy I worked with had a father with a standing order for a Rolls Royce Camargue each year. Every year after delivery he would find 30 or so small faults with the car and insist they were fixed. He was a generous man and on vacation he saw a couple on honeymoon at dinner. He sent over a bottle of excellent Champagne as a gift and thought no more about it.
When his next Rolls Royce Camarque arrived he set about finding the faults. It drove him nuts as he could not find a single one!
What he did find was a note in the glove box from the head of quality control at Rolls Royce, the lady at the dinner table, "thanks for the Champagne". He discovered later she had personally checked over his car before it left.

Great story!
I'm with Malcolm - ugly car.

[Izzy Camire]

After seeing this thread I checked mine for squareness across the sole vs the side. I would say it is out by about 0.005". I did not use feeler gages but I guess it is in tolerance.

[Tony Zaffuto]

After seeing this thread I checked mine for squareness across the sole vs the side. I would say it is out by about 0.005". I did not use feeler gages but I guess it is in tolerance.

Now the million dollar question: were you satisfied with the plane before reading this thread and if so, did reading this thread change your opinion?

[Frederick Skelly]

Now the million dollar question: were you satisfied with the plane before reading this thread and if so, did reading this thread change your opinion?

Right on the mark Tony.
Izzy, don't let it bug you - put that tool to work!

[Izzy Camire]

Yes I have been happy with the plane and I will continue using it. I must say I was somewhat reluctant to check it because I like it.

[William Fretwell]

Another session with 600x paper taped to my flat table. My BU jointer is still concave with a gap big enough to see the neibours. Just for fun I thought I would sharpen the 25 degree A2 blade Japanese style until it was flat across the whole surface removing the 'hand bevel'.
Two solid hours later (OK 1 tea break), you realise you have found a new form of meditation. Another hour it should be good.
If I want to do woodwork a bit more often I have to get a grinder to hollow grind the bevel but I hate those things.
Simple fact; for the same wear BU is a lot more sharpening.
Western grinder=Japanese laminate

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

I have similar picture of my shooting plane and Incra square:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=330836&d=1454411580&thumb=1 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=330836&d=1454411580)

It was posted in other thread some time ago: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?236253-Veritas-Shooting-Plane-Tolerance&p=2524697#post2524697

In my case, I did send it back to fine-tools.com (Germany) but they returned it to me saying that it is within the tolerance. If you invert the test and measure how much the smaller sole is out of square from the big one (which of course is not how it is used) then you will see smaller gap. The shop in Germany said that it is less than 0.003" that Veritas guarantee it to be.

So, I still have it like that. I just altered the track where my shooting plane is moving by sticking on one side of the run some UHMV-PE tape... Unfortunately, that also prohibits me from using it outside of shooting board, like shooting long grain on the bench. I use Custom #7 for that instead.

[andy bessette]

Why wouldn't you hand lap the angle precisely square?

[Simon MacGowen]

When I first started woodworking (pre-Internet days), I trusted what I read or watched and faithfully followed the advice that you had to start with stock that was milled flat and square...dead flat and dead square as some would say. That blind belief had caused me a lot of money as I chased after machines and hand tools that in the end couldn't deliver the kind of stock that I wanted! It wasn't the machines but my skills (or the lack of them) that kept me from producing flat and square stock. Then later, through had-earned experience, I found out that I didn't even have to start with stock that was truly flat and square...at least not to the kind of tolerance that we measure with a feeler gauge. The concept of flatness and squareness is important for joinery work, but not much so for other things. For example, when I fit cabinet doors or drawers, the critical thing is to get an even reveal around, regardless of if the case or the door is dead straight. Our eyes can be easily deceived.

Don't trust me? Check the most admirable, heirloom furniture piece (cabinet, table, and whatnot) you have bought from a store with a straight edge and a square and you would be surprised with your finding.

You can spend days squaring/flattening your tools and can still end up producing less than satisfactory work, if your skills are the weakest link.

Simon

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Why wouldn't you hand lap the angle precisely square?

I probably would. There are drilled holes on small surface. They seem to be drilled parallel to the big surface. So, if I lap the small one to square the plane should be fully functional.

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

While we are on shooting plane topic, I've heard in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLWntsttKKo) Tom Fidgen saying that he tried to sharpen the blade at 20 degree angle.

That, plus skewed blade, worked for him amazingly, it seems.

At 4:05 minutes he says that: https://youtu.be/nLWntsttKKo?t=4m5s

[Shane MacMillan]

Were you able to get the issue resolved? I picked up one today in Ottawa and found the same issue and will be returning it tomorrow and backorder one of the new ones coming.

[Hasin Haroon]

Hi Shane. The plane that I pictured in this thread was within the 3 thousandths tolerance, and Veritas intentionally makes their shooting planes just slightly acute (I believe they include this info in a little pamphlet with the new planes). So really there was nothing wrong with it. I would suggest checking yours against a known flat surface with feeler gauges if you have one. If I could delete this thread I would, but unfortunately cannot. I didn’t post an update as the thread got pretty irrelevant and out of hand, and I hoped it would just get buried....Hope this helps!

[Shane MacMillan]

Hi Shane. The plane that I pictured in this thread was within the 3 thousandths tolerance, and Veritas intentionally makes their shooting planes just slightly acute (I believe they include this info in a little pamphlet with the new planes). So really there was nothing wrong with it. I would suggest checking yours against a known flat surface with feeler gauges if you have one. If I could delete this thread I would, but unfortunately cannot. I didn’t post an update as the thread got pretty irrelevant and out of hand, and I hoped it would just get buried....Hope this helps!

Thanks for the update, adds good closure to the thread as well.

[Blair Swanson]

Greetings all. This has been a most fascinating thread & I would like to post here being that Lee Valley & Veritas are so well respected in this particular woodworking community.
I have nothing but admiration for the product & C.S. that I have experienced over the last 4 decades or so & it isn't often that you'll hear those words in any context from me.
A couple months ago I placed an order for the Veritas LA Jack w/PM-V11 & it has been on back order since then due to production delays/problems. It's making me a little nervous; QC & all, considering the unidentified source of these delays.
I have heard "rumoured everythings" from the bodies being manufactured in Austria (???) - to only back orders are being considered before re-stock (which doesn't instil a whole lot of confidence in the issue being rectified). I've already got 2 extra blades waiting for the body so I can go ahead with cambering.
Is there any definitive news out there on this issue of delays? I am a bit disappointed that this is being left up in the air, so to speak. I apologize if I've missed something on this elsewhere.
I look forward to participating on the forum & thank you all for your learned input in many facets of our passion. Be well.
Blair.

[sean contenti]

Last I recall seeing from Rob Lee was that the addition of Bubinga to the CITES conventions had accelerated a switch to torrefied maple for all totes and knobs - and that there were production issues with scaling up to the required rate.

No idea if that's still current for LV, as this was a number of months ago.

[Simon MacGowen]

A quick call or email to their c.s. should bring you the update you want. No guessing.

Simon

[Frederick Skelly]

Last I recall seeing from Rob Lee was that the addition of Bubinga to the CITES conventions had accelerated a switch to torrefied maple for all totes and knobs - and that there were production issues with scaling up to the required rate.

No idea if that's still current for LV, as this was a number of months ago.

Welcome Blair. Look forward to hearing more from you.

I tried to find the thread Sean mentioned just now and couldnt. But my memory matches whst Sean said. I agree with Simon - call LV and get the story. They will tell you what they can.
Fred

[Blair Swanson]

Welcome Blair. Look forward to hearing more from you.

I tried to find the thread Sean mentioned just now and couldnt. But my memory matches whst Sean said. I agree with Simon - call LV and get the story. They will tell you what they can.
Fred
Thanks Sean. Thanks for your greetings Fred. I'm aware of the change over to maple & have seen the new ones on the custom bench planes in stock but nothing yet on the others. (I have 3 of the Veritas PM-V11 chisels w/that wood & they're very nice.) I've got a nice piece of that roasted maple that I'm saving for the right place.
As a side: I sure wish they would have kept the original single rod attachment to the body. This would have facilitated my preferred "traditional"(forward lean) shape totes that are optional on the customs.



A quick call or email to their c.s. should bring you the update you want. No guessing.

Simon
Talked to them a few days ago re. an oversight on my end with my back order, but will phone again after the long weekend & inquire. I'm not sure I'll get anything too definite. Both stores in Toronto can't seem to get answers either. I suspect there's more to it than handles.

[J. Greg Jones]

Here is the link (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?263835-What-s-up-with-Veritas-Lee-Valley&p=2799491&highlight=#post2799491) to the discussion where Rob explained the situation, post #13 in the thread.


Hi,


We’re currently experiencing a production issue with wood parts (ironically). Since we’ve brought all handles in-house, we’ve been challenged to catch up with orders, let alone get ahead. We have stopped actively marketing many of the products, and expect to have our act together soon. New equipment has been ordered/installed, and we are looking at a second shift to catch up. We have more than 1000 finished planes waiting for handles...


It has been a challenge to convert to a torrefied wood, and we did not anticipate how steep and how long the learning curve was.


Please accept my apologies for the delays - we have good people working hard to get out of a sticky situation.


Rob Lee
Lee Valley and Veritas

[Rob Lee]

Hi Blair,

Thanks for your order, and your patience as we work through our production problems. While we are not out of the woods yet, our manufacturing team has made great progress reworking our production process for wood parts, and is close to getting out of the hole. We are back on double shifts, new equipment has been installed, and we are producing parts with far greater efficiency. A plane handle used to take about 30 minutes of labor to produce, and we’re now closer to 15 minutes, with a target of 8. We have a “burn down” plan for our backlog, and are tracking progress daily. We have scaled labor and equipment as much as we can without building a new facility, and have made excellent progress in optimizing the use of all of our resources.

While we catch up, we have been “parking” new product (ouch) until we restore a capacity cushion.

It hasn’t been an easy issue to address, and it has had our full attention for months now.

All of your patience is not taken for granted ....

Sincerely,

Rob Lee

[Blair Swanson]

Thanks J. & Rob. Understanding the source of anything always builds confidence. Wishing you all the best in your efforts Rob. You have my sincere empathy. All in - my new Jack will surely be a "slice"! ;)
B.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Blair and welcome to the Creek.

Amazing how many of life's questions can be answered just by asking.

jtk

[John C Cox]

In all honesty - I would much rather LV have the problem of can't keep up because of too much demand for their product than the opposite...

Dealing with the learning curves of new equipment and new employees to keep up with demand is a good problem to have.

[Jim Koepke]

In all honesty - I would much rather LV have the problem of can't keep up because of too much demand for their product than the opposite...

Dealing with the learning curves of new equipment and new employees to keep up with demand is a good problem to have.

Indeed!

jtk

[bridger berdel]

Lee Valley makes one, I am highly tempted to send them some green myself...and yes, I would also like to try my hand at lane making at some point. I did not know the plane making class at the local wood craft had been cancelled for lack of interest.

I offered a planrmaking class at my local woodcraft. Nobody signed up.

[Blair Swanson]

Howdy Blair and welcome to the Creek.

Amazing how many of life's questions can be answered just by asking.

jtk
Thank you Jim. Good to have a rewarding place to hang out for inspiration & growth.


In all honesty - I would much rather LV have the problem of can't keep up because of too much demand for their product than the opposite...

Dealing with the learning curves of new equipment and new employees to keep up with demand is a good problem to have.

Well said.

[Tony Leonard]

Wow, how ironic! I just saw the original post. My Veritas shooter has been at Lee Valley for several weeks. I discovered that it was not square. They have examined it and said it was within spec. I must say, I appreciate their effort, but I am very disappointed that what I am seeing is 'within spec.' I'll make it work somehow. Can't afford not to! It cut well, but I started to notice that my shooting board was wearing strangely. After some head scratching, I put the plane on my granite plate and when I put a machinist's square next to it, there was a large gap at the top! Whoa! I don't have a good way to get a good measurement of how much it is out really. It sure looks like more than the 0.003" and more than I would expect. Lesson learned. I will make sure I put anything else I order through a proper inspection before I use it next time. Expensive lesson! Still quite the Lee Valley/Veritas fan!

Mine should be back soon. I'll have to figure out a way to modify my shooting board to make up the angle. I need to redo it anyway as it is all out of whack now as a result of using it with the out of squareness.

Tony

[Simon MacGowen]

Wow, how ironic! I just saw the original post. My Veritas shooter has been at Lee Valley for several weeks. I discovered that it was not square. They have examined it and said it was within spec. I must say, I appreciate their effort, but I am very disappointed that what I am seeing is 'within spec.' I'll make it work somehow.

Lesson learned. I will make sure I put anything else I order through a proper inspection before I use it next time. Expensive lesson! Still quite the Lee Valley/Veritas fan!

Mine should be back soon. I'll have to figure out a way to modify my shooting board to make up the angle. I need to redo it anyway as it is all out of whack now as a result of using it with the out of squareness.

Tony

Did they say what their spec is? I could not find anything about it on their website. My shooting plane is square (just checked...phew).

I am not saying this is your problem, but way too many people overclamp their knob on the lever cap (on any planes). I have many times had problem unclamping a plane others have just used. Overclamping can cause damage according to Veritas.

Please update us on how you get your problem resolved.

Simon

[Tony Leonard]

To quote: "flat within 0.003." That does not say that it is square, so I must retract my statement. I do not know what the squareness tolerance is. I might could try a feeler gauge in the gap to get some idea, but that's not very accurate when looking for thousandths. I have pictures, but that doesn't help either. Bottom line is that it is what it is and Lee Valley/Veritas find it acceptable, so I must work with it.


I'm pretty conservative with my plane tightening as I do tend to overdo it when tightening things in general.

Someone further up the thread suggested shimming the plane track. I might play with that. Now, something else to consider....I bet the majority of what I plane will be 3/4" or less. So, the error over that distance is pretty tiny. I will do some experimenting. I'll have to be careful not to "rock" the plane in the track too.

[Blair Swanson]

@Tony - Were you given any insight as to the discrepancy between "within spec" & what you have experienced?
B.
EDIT: Re shimming the track - I wonder if a couple layers of Lee Valley's low friction tape on the outside of the track would help.

[Jim Koepke]

Someone further up the thread suggested shimming the plane track.

Here in the Pacific Northwest we experience a lot of shifts in the humidity. My shooting board usually has a bit of blue tape stuck to the fence or bed to make up for a wet or dry day.

Only one of my planes is really out of square enough for me to worry about its abilities as a shooting plane. Most of them haven't even been checked.

When shooting for a precise edge or mitered corners the last few licks are often done sort of freehand if needed to square up a piece or close a gap.

jtk

[Doug Dawson]

To quote: "flat within 0.003." That does not say that it is square, so I must retract my statement. I do not know what the squareness tolerance is. I might could try a feeler gauge in the gap to get some idea, but that's not very accurate when looking for thousandths.

The thickness of a sheet of 20 pound printer paper is roughly 4 thou (0.004"). Feeler gauges with a smallest measure of 0.5 thou are readily available (I own several, and didn't have to hunt them down too hard.)

Thanks for the heads up on the Veritas shooting plane, where this would actually matter.

[Tony Leonard]

Ha! Yeah, have several stacks of known thickness shims - playing cards are around 0.011", pages of my desk calendar are ~0.005, etc. I use them for all sorts of things. I have a 3D printer and the 0.005 sheets are great for setting the Z zero setting. I also have a set of cheapie automotive gauges that I have pretty much used up - cutting pieces here and there. I need to get a new set.

[Tony Leonard]

That might do the trick! Need to get some of that stuff.

No, I wasn't given any verbage about the condition of the plane other than it met their spec. I miss the QC area I had available a my old job - I could have measured it within a few tenths. I don't trust my eyeballs or my fingers when talking thousandths. But, when I placed the square against it (on a nice flat piece of ref. granite), there was a significant gap at the top.

Wondered about buying their track. Seems like it would be easy to shim it and adjust the fit too. Might try it.

[Blair Swanson]

That might do the trick! Need to get some of that stuff.

No, I wasn't given any verbage about the condition of the plane other than it met their spec. I miss the QC area I had available a my old job - I could have measured it within a few tenths. I don't trust my eyeballs or my fingers when talking thousandths. But, when I placed the square against it (on a nice flat piece of ref. granite), there was a significant gap at the top.

Wondered about buying their track. Seems like it would be easy to shim it and adjust the fit too. Might try it.

Seems like an investment with much potential. Opens up creative possibilities I should imagine.
B.

EDIT: Thought you may enjoy checking this out. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvBc17SLh38
I may wish to build it with a reverse slope. That would tend to push the stock down into the bottom of the fence
rather than lift it. Also - as it stands, the tilt of the stock would decrease the skew of the plane blade edge, while a reversed tilt would increase it. Not sure if that holds water or not. Anyway, the ramped concept seems very practical for utilizing more blade edge.

[Doug Dawson]

Ha! Yeah, have several stacks of known thickness shims - playing cards are around 0.011", pages of my desk calendar are ~0.005, etc. I use them for all sorts of things. I have a 3D printer and the 0.005 sheets are great for setting the Z zero setting. I also have a set of cheapie automotive gauges that I have pretty much used up - cutting pieces here and there. I need to get a new set.

Bottom line, if you can fit a sheet of printer paper in the gaps of your joints, there's a problem, no matter how it was done. At least for finished furniture (jigs, etc., all that matters is that they work for their intended purpose.)

[Frederick Skelly]

Folks, I wanted to post some background that may be relevant. This is from a review (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?260605-Brief-review-LV-Shooting-Plane&highlight=Shooting+plane) of the Shooter I did in December: "The instructions include an insert that talks about tolerances (picture below - sorry it's a tad fuzzy). I found myself wondering if that may have been included based on conversations here a few months ago. Mine is within the 0.003 tolerance. I was glad to get the insert - it told me that absolutely nothing was wrong. :)" The 'conversations' I was referring to in that quote were this particular thread.

I adjust-out the 0.003 tolerance with my lateral adjuster and get perfectly square parts/joints. I don't know how much "tolerance" you can make up this way before goofing-up something else. But it certainly works for me.

389054

Hope it helps someone.
Fred

[Simon MacGowen]

I adjust-out the 0.003 tolerance with my lateral adjuster and get perfectly square parts/joints. I don't know how much "tolerance" you can make up this way before goofing-up something else. But it certainly works for me.

389054

Hope it helps someone.
Fred
Thanks Fred for the additional information which was not included with my plane, probably bought long before any discussion about squareness arose. The additional information is not on LV web site either. LV should update the online manual or product site to include such useful information. The lateral adjustment is already a technique we often use to edge plane a workpiece.

As I said over the power tool thread, I do not adopt a machinist approach in woodworking, and always use the outcome of a cut to determine if a tool or machine cuts straight, flat or square. I don't lose sleep over tolerances.

Simon

[Mike Brady]

This is a lo-o-o-ong thread and I haven't followed every word of it. Is it fair to say that out of flat and out of square are two different measurements? Also I can add that I have a very nice commercial shooting board made entirely of baltic birch ply-wood; with a ramp, and an adjustable fence. I sometimes go weeks or even months without using it. Most of the time, I find it very out-of-square after that time interval. I guess my point it that a plane or a shooting board have to be judiciously set up to get good results. There is no guarantee that both will be ready to use off the shelf.

[Jim Koepke]

The lateral adjustment is already a technique we often use to edge plane a workpiece.

Mostly my lateral adjuster is used to make sure the blade is cutting evenly across its width.

Some use a cambered blade and move it side to side to improve the squareness of a piece. This is usually done by moving the whole plane.

How many other lateral adjustment techniques are there?

jtk

[Charles Guest]

Assuming they check these for square during manufacture, and not just a statistical sampling but each tool, then the body distorted after it was made and boxed for sale. I assume they have a better way of checking them than some guy or gal putting a square on it and holding it up to see if any light is coming through. Easy to get complacent around quittin' time.

[Simon MacGowen]

Mostly my lateral adjuster is used to make sure the blade is cutting evenly across its width.

Some use a cambered blade and move it side to side to improve the squareness of a piece. This is usually done by moving the whole plane.

How many other lateral adjustment techniques are there?

jtk

By heart, I think both Derek and David Charlesworth are proponents of cambered blades.

Other than touching the corners when honing to avoid tracks, I don't have any cambered blades. For the shooting plane, everything is straight across like yours.

To edge plane, I took James Krenov's teaching heart and soul. 2/3 of the time, a square edge can be had following his advice. The rest, the lateral adjustment OR moving the plane will get the job done.

Simon

[andy bessette]

...the body distorted after it was made and boxed for sale...

A virtual impossibility.

[Charles Guest]

A virtual impossibility.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212827113003405

[Tom Beltran]

That might do the trick! Need to get some of that stuff.

No, I wasn't given any verbage about the condition of the plane other than it met their spec. I miss the QC area I had available a my old job - I could have measured it within a few tenths. I don't trust my eyeballs or my fingers when talking thousandths. But, when I placed the square against it (on a nice flat piece of ref. granite), there was a significant gap at the top.

Wondered about buying their track. Seems like it would be easy to shim it and adjust the fit too. Might try it.

I just checked my Veritas shooting plane, using a granite plate and machinist's square. I couldn't find a 0.001" feeler, but a 0.0015" feeler would not pass through. Maybe mine was defective, but the body distorted in a way that "fixed" it. Anyway, it is a fantastic plane and beats a #5 turned sideways. As to the track, I have the 24" track. One needs about 8" of track before the blade even contacts the wood (to be planed), and a little less on exit, that only leaves about 14" of travel. So, I am building a 30" shooting board with a wooden track that is used on entrance and exit, so I have the full 24" of metal track for the actually planning of the board (in my case, guitar parts).

[Tony Leonard]

Glad yours checked out well. I haven't tried the feeler gauge yet. I just got the plane back. I did get the 24" track. It is nice. I threw it on my current board to try it out. I like it so far. One thing I did learn while messing around with this is that my board has a dip in it. I was using a small square and seeing a large gap (the board and plane not square). I knew the plane was not anywhere near THAT much out. But when I checked it with a large square (6"?), the gap pretty much disappeared! Aha! That was interesting. I shimmed my board just playing around. I shot a piece then flipped it over and pushed it against the plane and there was pretty much no gap. I'll have to watch out on shorter pieces. Meanwhile, I need to build a new board. This one looks pretty rough in addition to the dip. I used decent quality baltic birch ply, so I was surprised to see that dip! Not sure what I'll use for the new one. I shudder to consider MDF, but it is usually flat and nice and heavy....and cheap...and...not sure I can do it! The other thing I considered is chucking the whole affair into my CNC router for a little off the top! Looking at Derek Cohen's site makes me want a real 'pretty' one though. I like the adjust-ability too. Another thing I have noticed is that I need to pay attention to how I apply force to the plane. It is easy to rotate the plane enough to rock it even though it is 'captured.' I tend to push it into the work piece and hence I am rotating it a little.

Thanks for sharing your info. I really enjoy using the plane/board when it all works (or when there is no user error!). There is something immensely satisfying about removing tiny little whisps of wood and crating that hairline gap fit! I am building a small mahogany project right now and I have used it to fit several parts. Very nice. I need to also add a miter attachment.

Tony

[Charles Guest]

If you pay for accuracy you certainly should get what you've paid for.

That said, you're usually shooting to a knifed line so there should be no confusion about where you're going, even if board and plane are not perfect. The work piece can usually be manipulated a little if necessary take that last little bit of skin that gets you to the line. Again, board and plane don't have to be perfect. Shooting narrow work pieces is definitely convenient. Wide work pieces can be processed in the vise (very wide and long pieces simply clamped to your bench), again working to a knifed line.

Don't let a machine tool philosophy take over whereby if the machinery isn't dead-on you're left with few alternatives. This isn't so in the hand tool world, where the accuracy is inherent in the marks you've made on the wood and not in the tools you use to remove wood to the mark -- tools that can be remarkably pedestrian. If this notion blows your mind, you're not getting it.

[steven c newman]

Have a home-made shooting board...somewhere in the shop..I think....

Been using the Langdon 75 to get square ends on wooden parts....also works nicely on about any angle, up to a 45 degree. Nice when things are square right off the saw....sometimes, I trim things square, after rough cutting with other saws.
390486390487390488390489
From a few years ago. Have found that I need to tune this up, before each use....
390490
Sometimes, this is all I need to do....
390491
Any more, this is what I use the most. Was trimming the ends of a few 1 x 8 drawer sides....needed them squared for cutting dovetails.

YMMV....