Switching from Thermark to Fiber Laser

[mike wallis]

Hello,
We have been using Thermark for a couple of years which has proved profitable however we are considering going to a fiber to phase out the Thermark. We use Thermark on stainless steel and brass (1/16" thick) for sizes ranging from 1x3" to 18x24". Most of what we use it for is wall plaques that usually include a photo and text. Some reasons for phasing it out is it's time consuming, messy and toxic when sprayed. I'm hoping to get some feedback and opinions from someone who have been using a fiber laser for a similar application. Also looking for feedback from anyone who has used Thermark/Cermark and switched to a fiber. Were you glad you made the switch? If not what were the downsides?
Note that we are looking at purchasing a Epilog Fiber Fusion 50 watt however I'm also open to suggestions.

Thank you for your time and any feedback.
Mike W.

[Gary Hair]

I bought my first fiber hoping that it would completely eliminate Cermark from my vocabulary. It is safe to say that I was mostly disappointed with the results based on that assumption. If you need a black mark then a fiber is really not the way to do it, certainly not the fastest way. It can be done but it takes a lot more time than you would ever take using Cermark (or Thermark). Where it really shines for me is deep marking stainless and leaving a dark mark - not black but fairly dark. This takes much less time than Cermark, especially on small jobs where it takes more time to setup, spray/brush, laser, and cleanup. I do use the fiber to do a dark mark, technically called "staining" NOT annealing, fairly often on small plates instead of Cermark.

As for the laser itself - you won't have the same capabilities with a gantry fiber as you would have with a galvo, I would expect dark or deep marking to be so time consuming that you'll wish you were using Cermark instead! The only benefit you have with a gantry fiber is working area, but with the limitations vs galvo it's just not worth it in my opinion.

Supposedly there is a way to use Cermark with a fiber but so far nobody seems to have come up with the settings that actually work.

You mention toxicity when sprayed - have you tried brushing instead? I was an advocate for spraying for years but have recently found that brushing works really well if you practice a bit and focus on getting a thin, even, coat. Best of all, no mist in the air to breathe!

[mike wallis]

Hello Gary! Thank you for your reply, very valuable info. I would agree that the fiber mark is not as dark as Thermark. I've spent the last 3 months having samples run and the mark is mostly a dark brown on stainless. It can be darker in some cases. I might have found a workaround though. I've experimented with adding oil based paint into the etching after it's engraved which darkens it quit a bit. I think with the right paint fill (Exterior rated) it could be a good option. The best cycle time I've come up with using a gantry laser (Fiber fusion 50 watt) is about 1 hour for a 8x10" engraving on stainless. The cycle time is a bit high but it may be manageable. I've alao considered using the Fiber fusion for the larger jobs and a Galvo for the smaller ones.
Question, is the black mark the biggest issue?

Thanks again for your response.

[Gary Hair]

The best cycle time I've come up with using a gantry laser (Fiber fusion 50 watt) is about 1 hour for a 8x10" engraving on stainless.

That does seem like a long run but if you can charge enough then it's worthwhile. I have a job that I ran on my 30 watt GCC that took about 90 minutes, a 5x8 plate with a lot of very detailed graphics. The customer paid me $250 for them so it was well worth my while! I can run the same job on the fiber now in about 25 minutes - same price...


I've alao considered using the Fiber fusion for the larger jobs and a Galvo for the smaller ones.

That would certainly be the best of both worlds!


Question, is the black mark the biggest issue?

yes, other than that I really like my fiber machines! I'm about ready to spring for a portable machine to take with me to races so I can engrave the finisher medals. I posted a pic of mine from my recent half-marathon and everyone on the running group went gaga over it!

[Scott Shepherd]

That's a lot of money to spend to yield a slower run time than Cermark. It's not going to be a better result and it's going to take longer. That's $50K for what?

On larger plates, like control panels, we use Cermark over fiber every time. I wouldn't even consider running a 18" x 24" panel on a fiber. But that's just me.

If you want depth, then that time is going to be multiplied by a lot.

We, like Gary, thought the fiber would change things. It did, but just not how we thought. We went back to Cermark on a large number of the items.

[Keith Downing]

Scott, that's good to know; I'm also considering my options. So, what DO you use the fiber for that makes it worthwhile?

It may sound ridiculous but I'm debating between moving towards adding sublimation to our services vs adding another laser and trying to grow that way.

[Scott Shepherd]

I'd say the fiber has very specific things it does well. Large panels isn't one of them in my opinion. Deep engraving on a large panel, deep enough to color fill, is even worse.

The fiber is good for small things, in my opinion. It does great at anodized aluminum and various plastics. Engraving white polycarbonate for example, it does amazing, or black matte finish acrylic. Lots of things it does well, just large, deep engraving in metal isn't one I'd consider. Yeti cups isn't something I'd do on a fiber either. Not saying you can't do it, but rather it's easier and a better result on the CO2.

[mike wallis]

I bought my first fiber hoping that it would completely eliminate Cermark from my vocabulary. It is safe to say that I was mostly disappointed with the results based on that assumption. If you need a black mark then a fiber is really not the way to do it, certainly not the fastest way. It can be done but it takes a lot more time than you would ever take using Cermark (or Thermark). Where it really shines for me is deep marking stainless and leaving a dark mark - not black but fairly dark. This takes much less time than Cermark, especially on small jobs where it takes more time to setup, spray/brush, laser, and cleanup. I do use the fiber to do a dark mark, technically called "staining" NOT annealing, fairly often on small plates instead of Cermark.

As for the laser itself - you won't have the same capabilities with a gantry fiber as you would have with a galvo, I would expect dark or deep marking to be so time consuming that you'll wish you were using Cermark instead! The only benefit you have with a gantry fiber is working area, but with the limitations vs galvo it's just not worth it in my opinion.

Supposedly there is a way to use Cermark with a fiber but so far nobody seems to have come up with the settings that actually work.

You mention toxicity when sprayed - have you tried brushing instead? I was an advocate for spraying for years but have recently found that brushing works really well if you practice a bit and focus on getting a thin, even, coat. Best of all, no mist in the air to breathe!

Gary, when brushing the cermark have you done this for larger panels (12x12" or larger)? Also was this for photos? I've found for photos using Thermark if it's not completely even then it tends to have darker areas in the image where it was thicker.

[Gary Hair]

Scott, that's good to know; I'm also considering my options. So, what DO you use the fiber for that makes it worthwhile?

It may sound ridiculous but I'm debating between moving towards adding sublimation to our services vs adding another laser and trying to grow that way.

Really research sublimation before you make that decision. I did sublimation for about 8 years. It was fairly lucrative but I make way more money per hour, and less headaches per hour, with lasering. If you want to sublimate you really need to buy equipment in the top end of the price ranges, the middle and bottom will really drive you crazy, even worse than lasers will! From fiddly equipment, fiddly inks, specially coated items, and color issues, it's truly a pain in the neck... or lower. If you do get it dialed in, it's really nice but there are so many variables that you may never get there.

I have a UV printer that does 95% of what I could do with sublimation and I was never happier than the day I rid myself of sublimation.

[mike wallis]

I'd say the fiber has very specific things it does well. Large panels isn't one of them in my opinion. Deep engraving on a large panel, deep enough to color fill, is even worse.

The fiber is good for small things, in my opinion. It does great at anodized aluminum and various plastics. Engraving white polycarbonate for example, it does amazing, or black matte finish acrylic. Lots of things it does well, just large, deep engraving in metal isn't one I'd consider. Yeti cups isn't something I'd do on a fiber either. Not saying you can't do it, but rather it's easier and a better result on the CO2.

Thanks for the feedback Scott. The consensus seems to be that the fiber gantry systems just don't do well with large panels time wise. I thought that if we went with a 50 watt it would help but I'm not sure if that will make the difference. Our average size piece is 8.5x11" and would take roughly 1.5 hours on a Fusion fiber 50 watt using an etch setting. Our largest piece 18x24" i'm guessing would take between 3-4 hours. If I could get a Galvo to do it I think we can almost cut the time in half however the issue with the galvo is the max piece size we can work with. Thanks for your invaluable feedback it is greatly appreciated.

[Gary Hair]

Thanks for the feedback Scott. The consensus seems to be that the fiber gantry systems just don't do well with large panels time wise. I thought that if we went with a 50 watt it would help but I'm not sure if that will make the difference. Our average size piece is 8.5x11" and would take roughly 1.5 hours on a Fusion fiber 50 watt using an etch setting. Our largest piece 18x24" i'm guessing would take between 3-4 hours. If I could get a Galvo to do it I think we can almost cut the time in half however the issue with the galvo is the max piece size we can work with. Thanks for your invaluable feedback it is greatly appreciated.

For the price of a top end gantry fiber, you could buy a galvo fiber from Jimani that have a movable platen that would allow you to do very large pieces. Talk to Jim Earman and see what he has to say - besides being one of the most knowledgeable people about fiber lasers, he is a pretty nice guy that will give you all the info you need to make a good decision.

[Gary Hair]

Gary, when brushing the cermark have you done this for larger panels (12x12" or larger)? Also was this for photos? I've found for photos using Thermark if it's not completely even then it tends to have darker areas in the image where it was thicker.

yes, I have brushed very large panels with Cermark. If you thin it enough and use a foam brush, it's pretty easy to get a very even coat. I've never used Thermark so I don't know if either one is more forgiving than the other, but unless you get it really thick, Cermark seems to do really well. If you can't get brushing down with that large of a panel, I'd use a medium size sprayer and rig up some kind of exhaust system.

[Scott Shepherd]

Thanks for the feedback Scott. The consensus seems to be that the fiber gantry systems just don't do well with large panels time wise. I thought that if we went with a 50 watt it would help but I'm not sure if that will make the difference. Our average size piece is 8.5x11" and would take roughly 1.5 hours on a Fusion fiber 50 watt using an etch setting. Our largest piece 18x24" i'm guessing would take between 3-4 hours. If I could get a Galvo to do it I think we can almost cut the time in half however the issue with the galvo is the max piece size we can work with. Thanks for your invaluable feedback it is greatly appreciated.


Before I'd drop $50K in a gantry fiber laser (or any fiber laser), I'd explore chemical etching for that type of work. Make the negative, put it in, let it do it's thing, rinse it off and be done with it.

Honestly, while what the fibers will do is impressive, if my bread and butter work was removing metal deep enough to paint fill, I wouldn't be lasering any of it.

[Scott Shepherd]

Here is the type of panel that I say fibers aren't good at doing (gantry or galvo). In my opinion, cermark does a much better job.

356167

And here's stuff I think the fiber lasers do great at...

Hard anodized aluminum...
356169

Anodized aluminum
356170

[mike wallis]

Thanks for the pics Scott. Question, can you use the vector feature on the gantry type to etch the outline/border? In essence create multiple vector lines close together for the system to go around instead of rastering.

[Kev Williams]

Large panels and Cermark? (or Thermark, they're one in the same and Ferro owns it all anyway)

12 x 18" memorial plate-
356171

24x24-
356172

also 24x24-
356173

24x28-
356176

I have a couple of these half done in the garage, one like above and a smaller version. I've been waiting on the variable text info--
Foam brush did the Cermark duty, only takes about 2 or 3 minutes to paint these.
356174356175

Just a wild guess but I'd say there's 50c worth of Cermark on each panel...I'll probably spent more in electricity to run them ;)

I love my fiber, but they simply can't replace Cermark :)

[Scott Shepherd]

Thanks for the pics Scott. Question, can you use the vector feature on the gantry type to etch the outline/border? In essence create multiple vector lines close together for the system to go around instead of rastering.

I suppose you can, but that line on there is about 1/8" wide, the panel is about 17" by 29". To get depth on that with a fiber, you'd be there a LONG time. Plus that would be a LOT of heat into the plate and you would probably have some issues with bowing.

I think Kev and I are on the same page. Cermark larger parts.

I just finished a job yesterday that was stainless and they wanted it engraved and paint filled. 5 pieces, 6 letters each, 1/4" tall letters. Fiber laser took about 10 minutes each to get to depth that would hold paint and cermark would have taken about 30 seconds each.

[Kev Williams]

About a month ago I used the fiber to dark engrave some 1/8" thick 3" dia. dial indicators that I've always Cermarked. They turned out very nice and dark, numbers and hash marks nice & crisp, and for sure permanent because of the depth... They brought another 10 about 2 weeks later and flat out said "we like the other way better".

There IS one product where the fiber has pretty much eliminated my need for Cermark... Knives. I'm getting pretty good at slow annealing knife blades. My knife customers just love the fiber- the annealed black always has a slight 'holographic' look to it which is getting popular, and a few of them really like the bright engraving the fiber can do, which generally shows up better than the black. I like the bright better because what takes annealing 2 minutes can be bright engraved in seconds..

[Ross Moshinsky]

If you want to color fill stainless as far as I know the best methods are sandblasting or chemical etch. I've ordered a couple hundred chemical etch plates this year. I was matching something existing and had to order chemical etch, but even if I didn't, I couldn't imagine it paying to Cermark the plates vs send them out. I think run time was around 10 minutes if I used Cermark on a 60W machine. I can tell you I paid less for the whole thing shipped than it would have cost to laser at $2/min

[mike wallis]

I suppose you can, but that line on there is about 1/8" wide, the panel is about 17" by 29". To get depth on that with a fiber, you'd be there a LONG time. Plus that would be a LOT of heat into the plate and you would probably have some issues with bowing.

I think Kev and I are on the same page. Cermark larger parts.

I just finished a job yesterday that was stainless and they wanted it engraved and paint filled. 5 pieces, 6 letters each, 1/4" tall letters. Fiber laser took about 10 minutes each to get to depth that would hold paint and cermark would have taken about 30 seconds each.

That's a good point about the heat and I'm slowly backing away from the large panels with a fiber. Do you have any tips for holding down the panels flat to the table. I just use plaque tape at the moment for the Thermark panels we currently do but I'm sure there's a better way.

[mike wallis]

Nice work Kev. Looks like the sizes we basically do. For the foam brush technique what type of consistency have you found works best and does Cermark brush on better compared to thermark? Any recommended thinner? If we could eliminate the spraying of the solution that would be huge. Also would you mind sharing your method to hold down the larger plates while engraving?

[mike wallis]

Hi Gary,
Thank you again for your input. I'm certainly leaning more towards making the Theramark work at this point. Do you have any recommendations on the foam brush type and size? Also what do you use to thin the cermark with?

[Scott Shepherd]

Nice work Kev. Looks like the sizes we basically do. For the foam brush technique what type of consistency have you found works best and does Cermark brush on better compared to thermark? Any recommended thinner? If we could eliminate the spraying of the solution that would be huge. Also would you mind sharing your method to hold down the larger plates while engraving?

My methods for holding the plates down as been....

1) Lay part on table

2) Engrave

:)

[Gary Hair]

Hi Gary,
Thank you again for your input. I'm certainly leaning more towards making the Theramark work at this point. Do you have any recommendations on the foam brush type and size? Also what do you use to thin the cermark with?

I use a brush appropriately sized for the job. 90% of the time I use one that's about 1" wide, got them at Harbor Freight. Cermark is thinned with DNA, denatured alcohol. You may want to try it, not sure how the mark compares with Thermark as for marking or application, but I like that the DNA evaporates pretty quickly. I can brush and laser within 2-3 minutes, spraying it on lets me laser almost immediately.

[Tim Bateson]

I do find the Fiber Marking to be so much smoother and more Black (may take more than 1 pass) than I can get with CerMark. It's what I market as "medical grade", because it's so smooth. HOWEVER, except for industrial & Medical marking, I stick with CerMark for the reasons stated above. Too damn slow with the Fiber to make any money on Yeti's and any other large area such as SS Plates for Plaques.

[mike wallis]

I use a brush appropriately sized for the job. 90% of the time I use one that's about 1" wide, got them at Harbor Freight. Cermark is thinned with DNA, denatured alcohol. You may want to try it, not sure how the mark compares with Thermark as for marking or application, but I like that the DNA evaporates pretty quickly. I can brush and laser within 2-3 minutes, spraying it on lets me laser almost immediately.

I did a little experimenting brushing the Thermark and overall it can out good however I did notice that there were lines in the image where the brush strokes were. Do you get similar lines with your method? The current mixing ratio is 3 parts Denatured Alcohol to one part Thermark (3" foam brush). I'll try to post images.

[Tim Bateson]

I did a little experimenting brushing the Thermark and overall it can out good however I did notice that there were lines in the image where the brush strokes were. Do you get similar lines with your method? The current mixing ratio is 3 parts Denatured Alcohol to one part Thermark (3" foam brush). I'll try to post images.


Use LMM-14, you'll very likely get rid of the lines. I wouldn't use anything else.

[Gary Hair]

I did a little experimenting brushing the Thermark and overall it can out good however I did notice that there were lines in the image where the brush strokes were. Do you get similar lines with your method? The current mixing ratio is 3 parts Denatured Alcohol to one part Thermark (3" foam brush). I'll try to post images.

How much, and how, you thin Cermark vs Thermark will be different because of how they are made. I thin Cermark about 6 or 8 to 1, about the consistency of milk, and it brushes pretty well. On a flat surface it will smooth itself out a bit so lines aren't usually a problem. Not sure if you can do that with Thermark.

[Kev Williams]

In case anyone's interested (I was), the difference between TherMark and CerMark:

http://www.thermark.com/TM_Downloads/TherMark_vs_CerMark.pdf
(http://www.thermark.com/TM_Downloads/TherMark_vs_CerMark.pdf)
FWIW, all I've ever used is LM-6000, in spray cans for several years, and since then I'm on my 6th 500gm bottle of 'mud'.
Other than the formula change that's taken some getting used to, I've seen no reason to change.

In the PDF above it states the 6000 is more durable than LMM14. Best testament to it's longevity comes from my mining truck builder customer, who used to supply me with pre-stamped and colored SS ID plates, which I'd Cermark the variable info on.
In doing some maintenance on some of their trucks after a few years use, they found the ONLY thing readable on these plates was the Cermark wording.
They ran out of pre-printed plates about 4 years ago and I've been making them from scratch ever since.

[Jeff Body]

I did a little experimenting brushing the Thermark and overall it can out good however I did notice that there were lines in the image where the brush strokes were. Do you get similar lines with your method? The current mixing ratio is 3 parts Denatured Alcohol to one part Thermark (3" foam brush). I'll try to post images.

You need to dilute it more. You want it pretty wet. When you brush it on you'll see brush strokes. You want it wet enough for it to flow before the DA evaporates. If you've diluted it enough you won't see any brush strokes.

All of these were brushed with a foam brush.
356333

[Kev Williams]

One more possible factor, engraving speed a little high.

Some machines can be finicky. My old 25w ULS used to like 22 speed. 23 speed mostly okay but would sometimes leave streaks or blank spots. 21 speed mostly okay but would sometimes create a crust that would sometimes flake off, which I never understood but that's what it did!

I have my other machines zeroed in pretty good, 'cept for the Triumph. I've found those 80 watts are almost useless because to make use of them you have to run at fairly high speed, and the laser doesn't react fast enough to hit the Cermark consistently. I've found I have to run it much slower than the other machines and less power (like 23% last time) just so the laser's firing can keep up. And I still don't get raster results I like. However, vectoring works great- because it's always firing.

[Tim Bateson]

...In the PDF above it states the 6000 is more durable than LMM14...

I disagree with your loose "interpretation" of that document. The actual quote is "It also dries as a yellowish paint-like coating which is more durable than LMM14’s powder coating" Which refers to pre-engraving. Maybe not by much, but Engraving & after engraving LMM-14 is the better product. I use a foam brush and thick, thin, runny.. I always get consistent results. It's a very forgiving product that works well on all types of metals. Can't say that about LMM-6000. For shiny metals like Chrome, LMM-14 is the only product I have found that will adhere to it every time.

[mike wallis]

Hello Tim,
The experimenting I did with the brush was with the Thermark LMM-14. I tried it fairly thick at 3:1 ratio ( 3 Denatured Alcohol to one part LMM-14) which produced the brush stroke lines in the picture on stainless. I also tried going to a 4:1 ratio which had very obvious brush strokes and actually showed through to the metal in some parts. I didn't even bother engraving that one. We have sprayed the LMM-14 on for years now and it's produced very even results but I sure would like to get a system down with the brush to avoid the fumes. I'll have to play around with it more this week.

[mike wallis]

I agree, this could be a possibility. I run these on a 100 watt Trotec at a higher speed. It seems to work well for the sprayed on version of the Thermark though. Since Cermark says the mark is "Slightly" darker in the article I might give Cermark a shot.
On a side note does anyone know if there is a difference in the longevity between Cermark and ThermarK, specifically in UV exposure?

[Kev Williams]

I stand corrected--, 'more durable PRE-bonding' ---my old tired eyes missed the "pre".. Which makes sense actually, no reason one would be more prone to washing off than the other :)

But I've never felt the need to try anything else. Our poodle had a Cermarked dog tag I did, which rubbed against one of his stamped aluminum tags. After 10 years, the Cermark was almost worn off on the one side. I was a bit surprised actually, but it turned out that all the lettering on the aluminum tag was wore off too, couldn't even read it... the SS tag wore the aluminum out faster than the Cermark wore off.

I've spent nearly $3000 on LMM-6000 since 2002, which I've calculated comes to nearly 1/2 $million in sales, and while I get lots of compliments, I've only had ONE complaint ever, and that was my fault in prepping the part. (always clean the SS first!)

[John Lifer]

Obviously I haven't been doing this very long, but I use the LMM14 paste and even if I see brush strokes it engraves BLACK. I'm probably about 2-3 DNA to one paste, any thinner and it runs right off my cup. If I were doing flat, I could cut it more.
It will wipe off easy before lasering, so you have to keep from touching it.